I've noticed that there's always been a lot of second generation wayfers that get into trouble. I really wonder what is at the root of that.
My best guess is that their parents were always too caught up in their TWI "responsibilities" to spend the proper amount of time raising them.
Rubina, I think it was sad, that parents were so busy, with TWI "responsibilities", they didn't have time to raise their kids. I often wonder how much time, VPW spent raising his kids.
On 12/11/2020 at 12:21 AM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
Rubina, I think it was sad, that parents were so busy, with TWI "responsibilities", they didn't have time to raise their kids. I often wonder how much time, VPW spent raising his kids.
He spent a LOT LESS time than he'd made it sound. To hear him say it, he was an involved dad and successful dog trainer. He always pushed responsibilities to other people- and raising people and dogs counted among those responsibilities.
To hear vpw say it, he was the first minister to take his whole family on a missionary tour of India. Among the falsehoods in that statement was him taking "his whole family" (his words, not mine.) His youngest son, JP, stayed behind with grandparents for the SEVERAL MONTHS of the trip. In general, he spent LITTLE time actually raising his kids, but was fine taking all the credit for someone else's work. Then again, how can this be a surprise with such a serial plagiarist and conman?
He spent a LOT LESS time than he'd made it sound. To hear him say it, he was an involved dad and successful dog trainer. He always pushed responsibilities to other people- and raising people and dogs counted among those responsibilities.
To hear vpw say it, he was the first minister to take his whole family on a missionary tour of India. Among the falsehoods in that statement was him taking "his whole family" (his words, not mine.) His youngest son, JP, stayed behind with grandparents for the SEVERAL MONTHS of the trip. In general, he spent LITTLE time actually raising his kids, but was fine taking all the credit for someone else's work. Then again, how can this be a surprise with such a serial plagiarist and conman?
WW, you are so right!! I often wonder why he couldn't wait a year, or two to take his entire family, including JP, to India. I can't imagine leaving a newborn, behind on such a long trip. I never understood why VPW, was hell-bent on going to India in the first place. What was his purpose in dragging, his wife, and other family members on the trip?
WW, you are so right!! I often wonder why he couldn't wait a year, or two to take his entire family, including JP, to India. I can't imagine leaving a newborn, behind on such a long trip. I never understood why VPW, was hell-bent on going to India in the first place. What was his purpose in dragging, his wife, and other family members on the trip?
That's a good question, and an original question. So I did a little digging.
"When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak. And, when wierwille left India
he "designated" Williams to continue to oversee his (vp's) work.....of which, Williams did NOT accept."
"Most likely williams opened doors for vpw so that he could use vp as his puppet. They could show off an American who was spouting the same anti-colonial line many Indians were using. VP was getting fed a line and used and didn't know it. I'm sure it stroked his ego to be the lone voice of "truth" over "tradition." "
"I got hold of a copy of Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India shortly after I disassociated from TWI in 1986/'87, and was horrified to see how closely the Corps training duplicated the practices Wierwille decried in Dilemma."
"Like Dilemma, most of VP's "books" were transcribed sermons he gave, a method which captured his sloppy, extreme, offhanded, and inaccurate manner."
"There were some incidents concerning vpw's visit to India that we've discussed before.
There's what vpw SAID, and what HAPPENED.
For example, vpw said something about there never before having been a minister who
traveled there with his whole family- saying he was the first.
Supposing there were none before him, he wasn't the first because he left his
youngest son separated from his entire nuclear family for several months when
he was tiny.
vpw also claimed he had entre to all sorts of things there. This is true.
His host, Dr Williams, had entre and walked vpw through everything.
vpw responded by swallowing Williams' line of talk about missionaries-
which vpw later spoke on and had someone transcribe into "his book"
"The Dilemna of Foreign Missions."
vpw claimed that his entre into things all over India was the result of
some miraculous healing he performed. The truth is that Dr Williams opened
all the doors- as Mrs W's account clearly stated in her book.
vpw told us all that it was all because he supposedly was standing on the
back of a train as it was preparing to pull out, and there was a man with
a withered arm there, who was not a Christian. He asked the man if he wanted
vpw to pray for him and if he believed he would be healed if vpw prayed for him.
The man supposedly replied 'yes' to both, but was clear he did not believe in
Jesus. vpw supposedly prayed and the man received a miracle of healing, his arm
suddenly becoming whole and strong in a few seconds, just as the train was pulling
out. Supposedly, vpw was shouting to him about him receiving his healing in the
name of Jesus. Then someone came up to vpw on the train, said he was representing
some official who saw the entire incident that happened back there, and was
responding to such a healing, gave him the keys to his city, and said the doors
to "the East" would always be open to him as a result.
Mrs W's account of the train incident said he was asked to perform a special
blessing for the people there, Christian and non, and he prayed publickly.
Then a man came up on the train and said he represented an official who saw
the prayer, and was impressed a Christian minister would pray for non-Christians.
Later, Dr Williams arranged for vpw to get a key to a city and speak at the
convention.
Mrs W's account skips this entire supposed miracle. No surprise, since a poster
who knew her and saw her notes said there was no such miracle in her notes of the
time.
The entire supposed incident was ridiculous, and cinematic. vpw supposedly is on
the back of a train, and is permitted to hang off the back as it's prepared to
move, and a crowd is allowed to surround the back of the train. As the train begins
to pull out, vpw is in physical contact with someone on the ground, and the train
is beginning regardless. Furthermore, he's with NO support, standing at the back
of a train, bent over the back as it's moving, and he is immune to the laws of inertia
and general physics because he's shouting slogans rather than struggling to stay
onboard a train.
So he obviously lied about what happened, and Mrs W refused to include that lie in
her notes and in her book.
An interesting side-note is that one poster who knew her claimed she pointed to a man
in photos and said that was the man- but there's no such account in her notes and her
OFFICIAL accout of what happened skipped over it. Does that mean she told ONE person
the truth, and hid the truth from the rest-who wanted to believe it?
Or did she lie to one person and tell the truth to everyone else even though it would
have been easier to just give the lie they expected?
"Wierwille's stories in pfal." "The Indiand that was healed on the train by vp." "Keys to the city."
===============================
We get that vpw dragged his family along- except for JP- to India for months. We get that his denomination seemed to be against it, and made it clear he was not being sent as a spokesperson who could speak for them. But why was he so insistent on going?
Looking at it right now, it looks like Mr "I want to be special and have special knowledge" got played by Dw Williams and those who played ball with him. vpw wasn't very intelligent. If they were playing him and offering secret knowledge and entre, he would go along. (He's not the only one- it's been said that, if you put a velvet rope in front of a toilet, people would begin lining up for it. )
That's why HE went. Why was it so important to bring his family?
On 12/12/2020 at 9:13 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
WW, you are so right!! I often wonder why he couldn't wait a year, or two to take his entire family, including JP, to India. I can't imagine leaving a newborn, behind on such a long trip. I never understood why VPW, was hell-bent on going to India in the first place. What was his purpose in dragging, his wife, and other family members on the trip?
Grace, I agree with WordWolf – that isa great original question! That’s one of the many reasons why I keep coming to Grease Spot. Good questions often help us acquire knowledge, eliminate confusion, solve problems and often spur on further investigation.
On a side note, for meGrease Spot is like a think tank for cult survivors– besides the intriguing questions and challenges we all bring to the table, there’s also a lot of empathy here - offering advice and different perspectives, pooling resources, and addressing cult tactics. Overall it helps mepeel back the onionin terms of mental baggage, reexamining my experiences and even making some headway in the journey of self-discovery.
"When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak. And, when wierwille left India
he "designated" Williams to continue to oversee his (vp's) work.....of which, Williams did NOT accept."
"Most likely williams opened doors for vpw so that he could use vp as his puppet. They could show off an American who was spouting the same anti-colonial line many Indians were using. VP was getting fed a line and used and didn't know it. I'm sure it stroked his ego to be the lone voice of "truth" over "tradition." "
"I got hold of a copy of Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India shortly after I disassociated from TWI in 1986/'87, and was horrified to see how closely the Corps training duplicated the practices Wierwille decried in Dilemma."
"Like Dilemma, most of VP's "books" were transcribed sermons he gave, a method which captured his sloppy, extreme, offhanded, and inaccurate manner."
"There were some incidents concerning vpw's visit to India that we've discussed before.
There's what vpw SAID, and what HAPPENED.
For example, vpw said something about there never before having been a minister who
traveled there with his whole family- saying he was the first.
Supposing there were none before him, he wasn't the first because he left his
youngest son separated from his entire nuclear family for several months when
he was tiny.
vpw also claimed he had entre to all sorts of things there. This is true.
His host, Dr Williams, had entre and walked vpw through everything.
vpw responded by swallowing Williams' line of talk about missionaries-
which vpw later spoke on and had someone transcribe into "his book"
"The Dilemna of Foreign Missions."
vpw claimed that his entre into things all over India was the result of
some miraculous healing he performed. The truth is that Dr Williams opened
all the doors- as Mrs W's account clearly stated in her book.
vpw told us all that it was all because he supposedly was standing on the
back of a train as it was preparing to pull out, and there was a man with
a withered arm there, who was not a Christian. He asked the man if he wanted
vpw to pray for him and if he believed he would be healed if vpw prayed for him.
The man supposedly replied 'yes' to both, but was clear he did not believe in
Jesus. vpw supposedly prayed and the man received a miracle of healing, his arm
suddenly becoming whole and strong in a few seconds, just as the train was pulling
out. Supposedly, vpw was shouting to him about him receiving his healing in the
name of Jesus. Then someone came up to vpw on the train, said he was representing
some official who saw the entire incident that happened back there, and was
responding to such a healing, gave him the keys to his city, and said the doors
to "the East" would always be open to him as a result.
Mrs W's account of the train incident said he was asked to perform a special
blessing for the people there, Christian and non, and he prayed publickly.
Then a man came up on the train and said he represented an official who saw
the prayer, and was impressed a Christian minister would pray for non-Christians.
Later, Dr Williams arranged for vpw to get a key to a city and speak at the
convention.
Mrs W's account skips this entire supposed miracle. No surprise, since a poster
who knew her and saw her notes said there was no such miracle in her notes of the
time.
The entire supposed incident was ridiculous, and cinematic. vpw supposedly is on
the back of a train, and is permitted to hang off the back as it's prepared to
move, and a crowd is allowed to surround the back of the train. As the train begins
to pull out, vpw is in physical contact with someone on the ground, and the train
is beginning regardless. Furthermore, he's with NO support, standing at the back
of a train, bent over the back as it's moving, and he is immune to the laws of inertia
and general physics because he's shouting slogans rather than struggling to stay
onboard a train.
So he obviously lied about what happened, and Mrs W refused to include that lie in
her notes and in her book.
An interesting side-note is that one poster who knew her claimed she pointed to a man
in photos and said that was the man- but there's no such account in her notes and her
OFFICIAL accout of what happened skipped over it. Does that mean she told ONE person
the truth, and hid the truth from the rest-who wanted to believe it?
Or did she lie to one person and tell the truth to everyone else even though it would
have been easier to just give the lie they expected?
"Wierwille's stories in pfal." "The Indiand that was healed on the train by vp." "Keys to the city."
===============================
We get that vpw dragged his family along- except for JP- to India for months. We get that his denomination seemed to be against it, and made it clear he was not being sent as a spokesperson who could speak for them. But why was he so insistent on going?
Looking at it right now, it looks like Mr "I want to be special and have special knowledge" got played by Dw Williams and those who played ball with him. vpw wasn't very intelligent. If they were playing him and offering secret knowledge and entre, he would go along. (He's not the only one- it's been said that, if you put a velvet rope in front of a toilet, people would begin lining up for it. )
That's why HE went. Why was it so important to bring his family?
I have NO idea. Anyone got anything?
Great post WordWolf ! Besides being an informative answer to Grace’s good question it got me thinking how cults manipulate the memories of followers. Looking back, I think there were certain attitudes fostered in TWI – like having a disdain for anything in my past BEFORE I joined TWI. It was generally considered “old man” or “natural man” stuff…worldly, sinful and a waste of time since it had nothing to do with “the reality of God’s Word”...kind of a weird exchange - my old authentic memories are out - the new cult collective memories are in...
AND
Speaking of memories - in light of your post analyzing wierwille’s trip to India (btw thanks for the links to other relevant threads – I’ve saved those in my ever-expanding doc “some timelines in TWI history”) I am once again somewhat flabbergasted remembering my old mindset – how I uncritically accepted wierwille’s delusional memories – like the healing of the man’s lame arm in India…or the story of God telling him audibly that He would teach wierwille “The Word” like it has not been known since the first century…or (I think I heard this one from wierwille in the Advanced Class) how God taught him about revelation by helping him pick the wining horses at the race track…yeah – it’s embarrassing how I used to be so enthralled (maybe even bewitched) by his embellished and fabricated stories.
I was inspired to respond to your post after recently watching an episode of the X-Files on Hulu. It’s season 11, episode 4 titled “The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat” ( see Wikipedia – X-Files episode The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat ) . A key character in this episode is a scientist named Doctor They who has discovered how to shape collective memory. In the latter half of the episode, Doctor They in a bold and honest move actually clues Mulder in on the nature of his work – and throws in a reference to Orwell’s “1984” – “who controls the past controls the future” – I read his novel ages ago but think his ideas are relevant to cult survivors (whether it’s a religious cult or even a political cult) – since in the imaginary world of the future George Orwell tells the story of most of the world being deceived by the historical negationism (also called denialism - historical negationism is the falsification or distortion of the historical record. It should not be conflated with historical revisionism, a broader term that extends to new evidenced or discoveries, fairly reasoned academic reinterpretations of history) and propaganda promoted by The Party…I did a little digging on that and found this analysis of the “1984” slogan “who controls the past controls the future”:
“This is actually part of a longer slogan, one that goes: 'Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'. This slogan says everything you need to know about the ruling Inner Party's views on history. Basically, it means the Party believes it has the authority to rewrite history, because they control the present. They rewrite historical events, sometimes completely, fabricating events that never happened, or sometimes merely tweaking certain speeches or photographs.
This slogan, at its heart, means that not only can the Party rewrite history, but it can also control the flow of information, and the minds and thoughts of its citizens; therefore, the Party controls memory. Because the Party controls the memory of its citizens by controlling history, it also controls the present and the future. They can say or write anything they want, because they control the truth. To the Party, the truth isn't something as lame as 'what really happened.' No, to the Party, the truth is whatever they want it to be. And that could be anything, down to what country Oceania is at war with, or how many boots were produced in the last year.”
By the way I am not a UFOs-aliens-paranormal-conspiracy theories-fanatic…As I expressed on another thread ( see here ) - I like the dramatic and creative way each episode shows the subtle interplay of critical thinking, one’s belief system, hunches and speculation work to solve a problem – and sometimes a problem is not solved and may even lead to more issues…
Grease Spot helps to activate and/or develop a critical mind…I never thought I would still be drawing on my cult experience and what lessons I’ve learned. I could be wrong on this opinion of mine – but it seems like for a few years now there’s been a cult-like movement growing - one that challenges or disparages facts and science and promotes conspiracies, fear and division. I bet a lot of this strange and unsettling noise seems familiar to many cult survivors…and so …Circling back to my reference of “The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat” episode on X-Files you might enjoy reading a Screen Rant article on the 10 funniest X-Files episodes written by Irina Curovic – here is an excerpt from her article (oh and keep in mind this X-Files episode first aired Jan. 24th 2018, the episode was written and directed by Dan Morgan – who Curovic mentions right off the bat):
"...Morgan lampoons the show, comments on the current political climate, and questions whether the X-Files, as a show, even has a place in today's society. The elusive and surprisingly upfront Dr. They straight up tells Mulder that no one even knows what's meant by 'the truth' anymore, so the truth no longer matters, meaning the X-Files no longer has a purpose. Listening to Dr. They's take on today's society is funny, but, in hindsight, it may inspire you to ponder at length about our ugly reality."
Looking back, I think there were certain attitudes fostered in TWI – like having a disdain for anything in my past BEFORE I joined TWI. It was generally considered “old man” or “natural man” stuff…worldly, sinful and a waste of time since it had nothing to do with “the reality of God’s Word”...
It's how we were taught to diss everything our parents taught us - good or bad. My parents were good, church-going folk, and I know they did their best to live by the standards of the Bible. They helped anyone who needed help. They supported my great grandparents - almost more than their own family - and later had my great-granddad to live with us in our small house. They gave what they could to others (and they didn't have much to give, at one point not even enough food in the pantry). They supported vulnerable people, trying to give a fresh start in life. They sent or took us to church and Sunday school and did their best to raise us kids in decent, societally-acceptable ways: in which they succeeded. Did their best to protect us from the naughtiness that teenagers get up to, and from wickedness of the world.
Why diss all that? Why not be thankful for the good foundation that was instilled? And build on that?
(Well, the answer is obvious: who wants a Godly foundation when you intend to lead people into an ungodly life of debauchery and manipulation?)
I'm thankful for my parents. They were far from perfect, but they did their **honest** best.
After I left TWI, I realized my pre-TWI life was just as valid as during TWI. As posted above, we were taught to disavow our previous life as "old man" etc. i came to see my life a single thread, not a before and after. I reclaimed my previous life. I made a pie chart of my life with time in TWI highlighted. It's about a fifth of the pie and this point. As time goes by, the TWI section gets smaller and smaller....
I was just thinking a few days ago, as I prepared to visit a friend (in my "bubble") for our very quiet NY Eve celebration (a meal, a bottle of good wine, and a glass of port) than we once used to have to go to a massive Event in the auditorium. Way Prods would put on a show (sometimes quite good) and there'd be few comedy bits. And then it'd all cool down and there'd be prayers to bring in the new year. Do they still do that, I wonder? Can they even fill the front row in the auditorium nowadays? Or do they all "social distance" and sit 6 or 16 rows apart? (That'd "fill" the place.)
I wonder tradition when this started. Lots of people see in the NY, to be sure, including many churches. But I'm also aware that 31 Dec was (if I recall aright) VPW's birthday. If the Event started in his lifetime, then it was likely just a big birthday party for him, not a "watchnight" service at all.
Anyway - I prefer what I did this year...!
(Oh, and btw I stayed over, rather than have drunk enough to put me over the limit.)
After I left TWI, I realized my pre-TWI life was just as valid as during TWI. As posted above, we were taught to disavow our previous life as "old man" etc. i came to see my life a single thread, not a before and after. I reclaimed my previous life. I made a pie chart of my life with time in TWI highlighted. It's about a fifth of the pie and this point. As time goes by, the TWI section gets smaller and smaller....
Wow, Out and About !!! Great post!!!
That’s a great way to look at it…I think unconsciously I sometimes reflect on my life as before, during and after TWI – as if TWI was the most significant watershed moment of my entire life – like everything about me revolves around that…I like your idea of a pie chart – with more temporal distancing from TWI a pie chart would show its (TWI's) diminishing part-to-whole relationship with my entire life…I tend to rely on the power of focus when I think of my TWI experiences and get hyper-analytical. But there’s a distinct advantage to an overview – seeing the big picture which tends to put everything in proper perspective. Thanks !!!
Reconnected with an old Way friend over holidays. It’s amazing how the perspective of the rank and file believer just does not have any pertinent details of the real putrid fruit of the leadership. Ever since inception the Way has been hiding the insidious acts of its leaders and fleecing the unsuspecting kind hearted souls in the seats of their members homes. They sit there because the leadership has zero investment in any community across the world.
Church in the home means there is no responsibility on the organization to provide the extras most community churches provide freely.
It is a period of civil unrest. An unscrupulous pastor striking it rich from plagiarism has won some converts by hijacking many of them from organized religion and the Jesus Movement. During battles to control his own followers certain brave souls had managed to break open the lock-box of dirty secrets as well as reveal the cult leader’s ultimate weapon, delusions of grandeur with enough power to destroy one’s grip on reality.
Pursued by ridiculous threats of oblivion and devil possession, rebel ex-followers established cyber-bases where others could download the nefarious plans from the lock-box and shred them with the light-of-day-saber. Stay tuned for the next exciting episode The Farce Awakens: The Rise of Offshoots.
also some propaganda messages were retrieved by the rebels...
…pay attention for an important message to nurses and housewives in this first episode:
An unscrupulous pastor striking it rich from plagiarism has won some converts by hijacking many of them from organized religion and the Jesus Movement. During battles to control his own followers certain brave souls had managed to break open the lock-box of dirty secrets as well as reveal the cult leader’s ultimate weapon, delusions of grandeur with enough power to destroy one’s grip on reality.
Pursued by ridiculous threats of oblivion and devil possession, rebel ex-followers established cyber-bases where others could download the nefarious plans from the lock-box and shred them with the light-of-day-saber. Stay tuned for the next exciting episode The Farce Awakens: The Rise of Offshoots.
Gosh, I found one of those Red Thread long-sleeve shirts the other day. Had forgotten I'd got it. It could be a nice shirt to wear, but I don't like its connotations. And no doubt it has TWI's name all over it and I wouldn't want to "advertise" them. Might have to make dusters or some such out of it.
Twinky, you could give it to an animal pound. It might be used to clean up feces; manure is manure.
Grace, I agree with WordWolf – that isa great original question! That’s one of the many reasons why I keep coming to Grease Spot. Good questions often help us acquire knowledge, eliminate confusion, solve problems and often spur on further investigation.
On a side note, for meGrease Spot is like a think tank for cult survivors– besides the intriguing questions and challenges we all bring to the table, there’s also a lot of empathy here - offering advice and different perspectives, pooling resources, and addressing cult tactics. Overall it helps mepeel back the onionin terms of mental baggage, reexamining my experiences and even making some headway in the journey of self-discovery.
Thanks, T-Bone, but I have always wondered why VPW, dragged his whole family to India, minus JP. I guess I will never know the answer, but I am open to opinions.
Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
3 hours ago, Oakspear said:
Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
Oak, thank the good lord, you got out! I know it took me years to exit TWI, but I finally did it. Once out, I never went back.
Admittedly this is one atrocious way-over-the-top pictorial of my way corps experience. If I may elaborate on a few points of interest: I put a label on the PFAL book - it's kinda hard to read in the picture - but it says “VP said it, I believe it, that settles it” – wierwille had made reference to a Christian cliché “God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me” but he switched it around from being a matter of one’s personal faith to wierwille’s absolutism, he rephrased it to “God said it, that settles it, by God’s mercy and grace may I believe it”. Since wierwille had the self-appointed unique position of being the best interpreter of the Bible, this was another sublime way he practiced the unlimited centralized authority and absolute sovereignty of a dictator. My label “VP said it, I believe it, that settles it” represents how what wierwille said became almost like an a priori assumption to my personal faith.
…Inside the skull is the orange Power For Abundant Living book, The Way Living in Love book promoting the myth of wierwille and the green PFAL sign-up card - these three items representing the core curriculum of the way corps training program – stuff considered essential to work in the field – a thorough knowledge of the PFAL material, a belief in the greatness of wierwille and good sales skills to promote TWI’s products and services…In the lower right corner the text “the mind is a terrible thing” is a parody from a 1977 ad slogan "a mind is a terrible thing to waste" - my parody is a way of criticizing the mindless absorption of information that cults encourage.
You see that the skull has impeccable teeth – one of the good things from way corps training was the stress on good oral hygiene like brushing thoroughly after each meal… and don’t forget flossing! …Also notice the way corps coffee mug – is it half full or half empty? It doesn’t matter…There you have it ladies and gentlemen another post encapsulating TWI memories – good, bad and indifferent.
They belong in a museum for cult symbols... that's what your display is, right?
huh...uhm...errrr...oh yeah - that's it - yes that's definitely it - they belong in a museum
funny you should say cult symbols ... I actually posted this staged picture on Grease Spot a few years ago...but recently was inspired to re-post the picture here along with a text explaining what the objects represented to me after reading Penworks' paper on cult symbols on her Undertow thread - see here and here ...and actually in the sequence of events I kinda jumped around in the process:
1. first I read Penworks' paper on the power of cult symbols
2. thought about it - did some internet searches on symbolism...got excited from what I learned from Penworks' paper and online - a lot of how I think is visually based anyway - I often have to doodle out a problem when I'm thinking about it - even if it's "philosophical" in nature
3. started drafting a reply to Penworks
4. while drafting a reply, my old picture of Inside the Corps Mind kept popping up in my head.
5. saved a draft of my reply.
6. switched gears to elaborating on the rich symbolism of my picture. Gave that a lot of thought...I really had fun with it!
7. posted picture and explanatory notes here.
8. then went back to proofing my draft for Penworks' thread and
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waysider
I like to think I wouldn't have gotten involved, either. Truth is, though, it was 50 years ago. I'm not the same person now that I was then. Don't beat yourself up over decisions you made so long ago.
outandabout
After I left TWI, I realized my pre-TWI life was just as valid as during TWI. As posted above, we were taught to disavow our previous life as "old man" etc. i came to see my life a single thread,
waysider
I remember one day, in FellowLaborers, looking in the mirror and suddenly wondering "How did I become this person I'm looking at in the mirror?" It wasn't one of those moments where you somberly ponde
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rubina, I think it was sad, that parents were so busy, with TWI "responsibilities", they didn't have time to raise their kids. I often wonder how much time, VPW spent raising his kids.
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WordWolf
He spent a LOT LESS time than he'd made it sound. To hear him say it, he was an involved dad and successful dog trainer. He always pushed responsibilities to other people- and raising people and dogs counted among those responsibilities.
To hear vpw say it, he was the first minister to take his whole family on a missionary tour of India. Among the falsehoods in that statement was him taking "his whole family" (his words, not mine.) His youngest son, JP, stayed behind with grandparents for the SEVERAL MONTHS of the trip. In general, he spent LITTLE time actually raising his kids, but was fine taking all the credit for someone else's work. Then again, how can this be a surprise with such a serial plagiarist and conman?
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, you are so right!! I often wonder why he couldn't wait a year, or two to take his entire family, including JP, to India. I can't imagine leaving a newborn, behind on such a long trip. I never understood why VPW, was hell-bent on going to India in the first place. What was his purpose in dragging, his wife, and other family members on the trip?
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WordWolf
That's a good question, and an original question. So I did a little digging.
Here's what we have:
The thread "VP's visit to India" discusses this.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23050-vps-visit-to-india/page/2/
"When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak. And, when wierwille left India
he "designated" Williams to continue to oversee his (vp's) work.....of which, Williams did NOT accept."
"Most likely williams opened doors for vpw so that he could use vp as his puppet. They could show off an American who was spouting the same anti-colonial line many Indians were using. VP was getting fed a line and used and didn't know it. I'm sure it stroked his ego to be the lone voice of "truth" over "tradition." "
"I got hold of a copy of Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India shortly after I disassociated from TWI in 1986/'87, and was horrified to see how closely the Corps training duplicated the practices Wierwille decried in Dilemma."
"Like Dilemma, most of VP's "books" were transcribed sermons he gave, a method which captured his sloppy, extreme, offhanded, and inaccurate manner."
"There were some incidents concerning vpw's visit to India that we've discussed before.
There's what vpw SAID, and what HAPPENED.
For example, vpw said something about there never before having been a minister who
traveled there with his whole family- saying he was the first.
Supposing there were none before him, he wasn't the first because he left his
youngest son separated from his entire nuclear family for several months when
he was tiny.
vpw also claimed he had entre to all sorts of things there. This is true.
His host, Dr Williams, had entre and walked vpw through everything.
vpw responded by swallowing Williams' line of talk about missionaries-
which vpw later spoke on and had someone transcribe into "his book"
"The Dilemna of Foreign Missions."
vpw claimed that his entre into things all over India was the result of
some miraculous healing he performed. The truth is that Dr Williams opened
all the doors- as Mrs W's account clearly stated in her book.
vpw told us all that it was all because he supposedly was standing on the
back of a train as it was preparing to pull out, and there was a man with
a withered arm there, who was not a Christian. He asked the man if he wanted
vpw to pray for him and if he believed he would be healed if vpw prayed for him.
The man supposedly replied 'yes' to both, but was clear he did not believe in
Jesus. vpw supposedly prayed and the man received a miracle of healing, his arm
suddenly becoming whole and strong in a few seconds, just as the train was pulling
out. Supposedly, vpw was shouting to him about him receiving his healing in the
name of Jesus. Then someone came up to vpw on the train, said he was representing
some official who saw the entire incident that happened back there, and was
responding to such a healing, gave him the keys to his city, and said the doors
to "the East" would always be open to him as a result.
Mrs W's account of the train incident said he was asked to perform a special
blessing for the people there, Christian and non, and he prayed publickly.
Then a man came up on the train and said he represented an official who saw
the prayer, and was impressed a Christian minister would pray for non-Christians.
Later, Dr Williams arranged for vpw to get a key to a city and speak at the
convention.
Mrs W's account skips this entire supposed miracle. No surprise, since a poster
who knew her and saw her notes said there was no such miracle in her notes of the
time.
The entire supposed incident was ridiculous, and cinematic. vpw supposedly is on
the back of a train, and is permitted to hang off the back as it's prepared to
move, and a crowd is allowed to surround the back of the train. As the train begins
to pull out, vpw is in physical contact with someone on the ground, and the train
is beginning regardless. Furthermore, he's with NO support, standing at the back
of a train, bent over the back as it's moving, and he is immune to the laws of inertia
and general physics because he's shouting slogans rather than struggling to stay
onboard a train.
So he obviously lied about what happened, and Mrs W refused to include that lie in
her notes and in her book.
An interesting side-note is that one poster who knew her claimed she pointed to a man
in photos and said that was the man- but there's no such account in her notes and her
OFFICIAL accout of what happened skipped over it. Does that mean she told ONE person
the truth, and hid the truth from the rest-who wanted to believe it?
Or did she lie to one person and tell the truth to everyone else even though it would
have been easier to just give the lie they expected?
I think we all would draw the same conclusions."
Some threads that discussed related points:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/16710-wierwilles-stories-in-pfal/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/13609-the-indian-that-was-healed-on-the-train-by-vp/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/21689-keys-to-the-city/
"Wierwille's stories in pfal." "The Indiand that was healed on the train by vp." "Keys to the city."
===============================
We get that vpw dragged his family along- except for JP- to India for months. We get that his denomination seemed to be against it, and made it clear he was not being sent as a spokesperson who could speak for them. But why was he so insistent on going?
Looking at it right now, it looks like Mr "I want to be special and have special knowledge" got played by Dw Williams and those who played ball with him. vpw wasn't very intelligent. If they were playing him and offering secret knowledge and entre, he would go along. (He's not the only one- it's been said that, if you put a velvet rope in front of a toilet, people would begin lining up for it. )
That's why HE went. Why was it so important to bring his family?
I have NO idea. Anyone got anything?
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T-Bone
Grace, I agree with WordWolf – that is a great original question! That’s one of the many reasons why I keep coming to Grease Spot. Good questions often help us acquire knowledge, eliminate confusion, solve problems and often spur on further investigation.
On a side note, for me Grease Spot is like a think tank for cult survivors – besides the intriguing questions and challenges we all bring to the table, there’s also a lot of empathy here - offering advice and different perspectives, pooling resources, and addressing cult tactics. Overall it helps me peel back the onion in terms of mental baggage, reexamining my experiences and even making some headway in the journey of self-discovery.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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T-Bone
Great post WordWolf ! Besides being an informative answer to Grace’s good question it got me thinking how cults manipulate the memories of followers. Looking back, I think there were certain attitudes fostered in TWI – like having a disdain for anything in my past BEFORE I joined TWI. It was generally considered “old man” or “natural man” stuff…worldly, sinful and a waste of time since it had nothing to do with “the reality of God’s Word”...kind of a weird exchange - my old authentic memories are out - the new cult collective memories are in...
AND
Speaking of memories - in light of your post analyzing wierwille’s trip to India (btw thanks for the links to other relevant threads – I’ve saved those in my ever-expanding doc “some timelines in TWI history”) I am once again somewhat flabbergasted remembering my old mindset – how I uncritically accepted wierwille’s delusional memories – like the healing of the man’s lame arm in India…or the story of God telling him audibly that He would teach wierwille “The Word” like it has not been known since the first century…or (I think I heard this one from wierwille in the Advanced Class) how God taught him about revelation by helping him pick the wining horses at the race track…yeah – it’s embarrassing how I used to be so enthralled (maybe even bewitched) by his embellished and fabricated stories.
I was inspired to respond to your post after recently watching an episode of the X-Files on Hulu. It’s season 11, episode 4 titled “The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat” ( see Wikipedia – X-Files episode The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat ) . A key character in this episode is a scientist named Doctor They who has discovered how to shape collective memory. In the latter half of the episode, Doctor They in a bold and honest move actually clues Mulder in on the nature of his work – and throws in a reference to Orwell’s “1984” – “who controls the past controls the future” – I read his novel ages ago but think his ideas are relevant to cult survivors (whether it’s a religious cult or even a political cult) – since in the imaginary world of the future George Orwell tells the story of most of the world being deceived by the historical negationism (also called denialism - historical negationism is the falsification or distortion of the historical record. It should not be conflated with historical revisionism, a broader term that extends to new evidenced or discoveries, fairly reasoned academic reinterpretations of history) and propaganda promoted by The Party…I did a little digging on that and found this analysis of the “1984” slogan “who controls the past controls the future”:
“This is actually part of a longer slogan, one that goes: 'Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'. This slogan says everything you need to know about the ruling Inner Party's views on history. Basically, it means the Party believes it has the authority to rewrite history, because they control the present. They rewrite historical events, sometimes completely, fabricating events that never happened, or sometimes merely tweaking certain speeches or photographs.
This slogan, at its heart, means that not only can the Party rewrite history, but it can also control the flow of information, and the minds and thoughts of its citizens; therefore, the Party controls memory. Because the Party controls the memory of its citizens by controlling history, it also controls the present and the future. They can say or write anything they want, because they control the truth. To the Party, the truth isn't something as lame as 'what really happened.' No, to the Party, the truth is whatever they want it to be. And that could be anything, down to what country Oceania is at war with, or how many boots were produced in the last year.”
From study.com academy lesson – slogans in “1984”
== == == ==
By the way I am not a UFOs-aliens-paranormal-conspiracy theories-fanatic…As I expressed on another thread ( see here ) - I like the dramatic and creative way each episode shows the subtle interplay of critical thinking, one’s belief system, hunches and speculation work to solve a problem – and sometimes a problem is not solved and may even lead to more issues…
Grease Spot helps to activate and/or develop a critical mind…I never thought I would still be drawing on my cult experience and what lessons I’ve learned. I could be wrong on this opinion of mine – but it seems like for a few years now there’s been a cult-like movement growing - one that challenges or disparages facts and science and promotes conspiracies, fear and division. I bet a lot of this strange and unsettling noise seems familiar to many cult survivors…and so …Circling back to my reference of “The Lost Art of Forehead Sweat” episode on X-Files you might enjoy reading a Screen Rant article on the 10 funniest X-Files episodes written by Irina Curovic – here is an excerpt from her article (oh and keep in mind this X-Files episode first aired Jan. 24th 2018, the episode was written and directed by Dan Morgan – who Curovic mentions right off the bat):
"...Morgan lampoons the show, comments on the current political climate, and questions whether the X-Files, as a show, even has a place in today's society. The elusive and surprisingly upfront Dr. They straight up tells Mulder that no one even knows what's meant by 'the truth' anymore, so the truth no longer matters, meaning the X-Files no longer has a purpose. Listening to Dr. They's take on today's society is funny, but, in hindsight, it may inspire you to ponder at length about our ugly reality."
from: Screen Rant - 10 of the funniest X-Files episodes
Edited by T-Bonetypos & formatting
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Twinky
It's how we were taught to diss everything our parents taught us - good or bad. My parents were good, church-going folk, and I know they did their best to live by the standards of the Bible. They helped anyone who needed help. They supported my great grandparents - almost more than their own family - and later had my great-granddad to live with us in our small house. They gave what they could to others (and they didn't have much to give, at one point not even enough food in the pantry). They supported vulnerable people, trying to give a fresh start in life. They sent or took us to church and Sunday school and did their best to raise us kids in decent, societally-acceptable ways: in which they succeeded. Did their best to protect us from the naughtiness that teenagers get up to, and from wickedness of the world.
Why diss all that? Why not be thankful for the good foundation that was instilled? And build on that?
(Well, the answer is obvious: who wants a Godly foundation when you intend to lead people into an ungodly life of debauchery and manipulation?)
I'm thankful for my parents. They were far from perfect, but they did their **honest** best.
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outandabout
After I left TWI, I realized my pre-TWI life was just as valid as during TWI. As posted above, we were taught to disavow our previous life as "old man" etc. i came to see my life a single thread, not a before and after. I reclaimed my previous life. I made a pie chart of my life with time in TWI highlighted. It's about a fifth of the pie and this point. As time goes by, the TWI section gets smaller and smaller....
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Twinky
Memories good, bad or indifferent...
I was just thinking a few days ago, as I prepared to visit a friend (in my "bubble") for our very quiet NY Eve celebration (a meal, a bottle of good wine, and a glass of port) than we once used to have to go to a massive Event in the auditorium. Way Prods would put on a show (sometimes quite good) and there'd be few comedy bits. And then it'd all cool down and there'd be prayers to bring in the new year. Do they still do that, I wonder? Can they even fill the front row in the auditorium nowadays? Or do they all "social distance" and sit 6 or 16 rows apart? (That'd "fill" the place.)
I wonder tradition when this started. Lots of people see in the NY, to be sure, including many churches. But I'm also aware that 31 Dec was (if I recall aright) VPW's birthday. If the Event started in his lifetime, then it was likely just a big birthday party for him, not a "watchnight" service at all.
Anyway - I prefer what I did this year...!
(Oh, and btw I stayed over, rather than have drunk enough to put me over the limit.)
Happy new year to you all !
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T-Bone
Wow, Out and About !!! Great post!!!
That’s a great way to look at it…I think unconsciously I sometimes reflect on my life as before, during and after TWI – as if TWI was the most significant watershed moment of my entire life – like everything about me revolves around that…I like your idea of a pie chart – with more temporal distancing from TWI a pie chart would show its (TWI's) diminishing part-to-whole relationship with my entire life…I tend to rely on the power of focus when I think of my TWI experiences and get hyper-analytical. But there’s a distinct advantage to an overview – seeing the big picture which tends to put everything in proper perspective. Thanks !!!
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chockfull
Reconnected with an old Way friend over holidays. It’s amazing how the perspective of the rank and file believer just does not have any pertinent details of the real putrid fruit of the leadership. Ever since inception the Way has been hiding the insidious acts of its leaders and fleecing the unsuspecting kind hearted souls in the seats of their members homes. They sit there because the leadership has zero investment in any community across the world.
Church in the home means there is no responsibility on the organization to provide the extras most community churches provide freely.
The Way is an organization of takers not givers.
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chockfull
With that perspective I personally have many memories that I have of enjoyable times, growth, life events.
It’s amazing how removing the marionette strings allows the puppet to move freely.
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T-Bone
A long time ago on a calendar far, far away…
A False Hope
It is a period of civil unrest. An unscrupulous pastor striking it rich from plagiarism has won some converts by hijacking many of them from organized religion and the Jesus Movement. During battles to control his own followers certain brave souls had managed to break open the lock-box of dirty secrets as well as reveal the cult leader’s ultimate weapon, delusions of grandeur with enough power to destroy one’s grip on reality.
Pursued by ridiculous threats of oblivion and devil possession, rebel ex-followers established cyber-bases where others could download the nefarious plans from the lock-box and shred them with the light-of-day-saber. Stay tuned for the next exciting episode The Farce Awakens: The Rise of Offshoots.
also some propaganda messages were retrieved by the rebels...
…pay attention for an important message to nurses and housewives in this first episode:
PFAL 1967 documentary
PFAL segment 03
1977 the Changed video
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Rocky
Nice! An apt summary.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, you could give it to an animal pound. It might be used to clean up feces; manure is manure.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Thanks, T-Bone, but I have always wondered why VPW, dragged his whole family to India, minus JP. I guess I will never know the answer, but I am open to opinions.
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Oakspear
Interesting illustration a few posts back about controlling the future by controlling the past & controlling the past by controlling the present, and how we often bought into the made-up "memories" of Wierwille and his inner circle. Another 1984 line that gets quoted a lot is the one about not believing the evidence of your own eyes.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
During the end of my sojourn in TWI I had some question about what they were telling us about Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars'. I remember Wierwille making the statement "And that's why there are no stars in The North". What? There ARE stars in the north...they're all over the damn place! I didn't give it much thought until many years later Martindale brought it up. He admitted that he too was puzzled by that statement. He then pointed to the map of the constellations in the back of 'Witness of the Stars' and told us that it meant that there was a gap, representing 'the mystery' in between Ursa Major & Ursa Minor that contained no stars. Soon after that I was out camping, and away from the city lights, you could plainly see a truckload of stars in the supposed gap.
When I brought it up to "leadership" they "explained" that back then they didn't know about all the constellations that we know about now since they didn't have telescopes. That statement made so little sense, and was so ridiculous on the face of it, it was one of the steps to me getting out the YTWI door
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waysider
You know wht else they didn't have back then? Light pollution.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Oak, thank the good lord, you got out! I know it took me years to exit TWI, but I finally did it. Once out, I never went back.
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T-Bone
This picture is titled Inside the Corps Mind
Admittedly this is one atrocious way-over-the-top pictorial of my way corps experience. If I may elaborate on a few points of interest: I put a label on the PFAL book - it's kinda hard to read in the picture - but it says “VP said it, I believe it, that settles it” – wierwille had made reference to a Christian cliché “God said it, I believe it, that settles it for me” but he switched it around from being a matter of one’s personal faith to wierwille’s absolutism, he rephrased it to “God said it, that settles it, by God’s mercy and grace may I believe it”. Since wierwille had the self-appointed unique position of being the best interpreter of the Bible, this was another sublime way he practiced the unlimited centralized authority and absolute sovereignty of a dictator. My label “VP said it, I believe it, that settles it” represents how what wierwille said became almost like an a priori assumption to my personal faith.
…Inside the skull is the orange Power For Abundant Living book, The Way Living in Love book promoting the myth of wierwille and the green PFAL sign-up card - these three items representing the core curriculum of the way corps training program – stuff considered essential to work in the field – a thorough knowledge of the PFAL material, a belief in the greatness of wierwille and good sales skills to promote TWI’s products and services…In the lower right corner the text “the mind is a terrible thing” is a parody from a 1977 ad slogan "a mind is a terrible thing to waste" - my parody is a way of criticizing the mindless absorption of information that cults encourage.
You see that the skull has impeccable teeth – one of the good things from way corps training was the stress on good oral hygiene like brushing thoroughly after each meal… and don’t forget flossing! …Also notice the way corps coffee mug – is it half full or half empty? It doesn’t matter…There you have it ladies and gentlemen another post encapsulating TWI memories – good, bad and indifferent.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Twinky
You still have your WC mug, T-Bone? And the PFAL book?? And a green card??? What are you - a cult-head??
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T-Bone
Guess I never got it through my thick skull all that stuff is passé
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Rocky
They belong in a museum for cult symbols... that's what your display is, right?
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T-Bone
huh...uhm...errrr...oh yeah - that's it - yes that's definitely it - they belong in a museum
funny you should say cult symbols ... I actually posted this staged picture on Grease Spot a few years ago...but recently was inspired to re-post the picture here along with a text explaining what the objects represented to me after reading Penworks' paper on cult symbols on her Undertow thread - see here and here ...and actually in the sequence of events I kinda jumped around in the process:
1. first I read Penworks' paper on the power of cult symbols
2. thought about it - did some internet searches on symbolism...got excited from what I learned from Penworks' paper and online - a lot of how I think is visually based anyway - I often have to doodle out a problem when I'm thinking about it - even if it's "philosophical" in nature
3. started drafting a reply to Penworks
4. while drafting a reply, my old picture of Inside the Corps Mind kept popping up in my head.
5. saved a draft of my reply.
6. switched gears to elaborating on the rich symbolism of my picture. Gave that a lot of thought...I really had fun with it!
7. posted picture and explanatory notes here.
8. then went back to proofing my draft for Penworks' thread and
9. posted my reply there.
...now you know the rest of the story.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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