Yes! We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market. This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the
commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China
Maybe we’ve stumbled upon another tributary flowing into the rabbit hole. So let’s back up and look at this too.
On 4/16/2020 at 3:35 AM, Waxit said:
(SNIP)
So again T-Bone, like your verse in romans and Peter' vision ihas nothing to do with clean and unclean food per se and the rules have not changed and certainly doesnt diminish the importance of the 7th day Sabbath keeping relationship and 4th commandment of God
and Colossians was written to Gentiles to encourage them to observe the sabbath (opposite of what you are thinking)
So how can you possibly say the rules have changed. It may have for you but not for God
and I prefer to listen to God.
Why dont you re examine the scriptures in light of what I have shared with you and pray with all your heart
for understanding the truth about 7th day sabbath keeping?
Regards
Waxit
your statement “like your verse in romans and Peter' vision ihas nothing to do with clean and unclean food per se and the rules have not changed and certainly doesnt diminish the importance of the 7th day Sabbath keeping relationship and 4th commandment of God ” is a hot mess of circular reasoning. It’s an obvious attempt by you to negate - or perhaps I should put it more emphatically – contradict the obvious meaning of passages that clearly show “the rules” have indeed changed regarding certain foods. Jesus even addressed this in Mark 7
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”Mark 7: 14-23 NIV
As mentioned by other folks on this thread - the burden of proof is upon your shoulders – the rules of debate require you to show by a preponderance of evidence the facts – scriptural evidence – necessary to win the argument that the rules have not changed – even after the revelation of “the gospel” of Jesus Christ – the “good news” of all that was accomplished in the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.
23 hours ago, Waxit said:
I dont realy give a hoot about dispensatinalism and whatever vw came up with and I am aware of the rubbish that vw used in guiding people's thoughts away to what
he wanted people to believe by using dispensationalism as an excuse. These are fancy terms that vw used to dazzle people and misguide them
Things like Jesus Christ was in the bosom of the father is absolute c___p from vw
You shouldnt throw the baby with the bath water waysider. It is plain common sense, in right dividing of the word is to see to whom the letter was written to. For instance Hebrews was written to jewish believers who converted to christianity
and Colossians was written to Gentiles. To put in our vernacular- if you are writing to a german would you use the spanish language. No! of course not
There is nothing wrong with plain common sense- to whom it was written, wwhat is the cultural evironment of the people being written to, why it wa written/what problem is
Paul addressing. There is nothing wrong with that and it's very important - otherwise there can be all kinds of misinterpretation of the word of God
What i say, we should use our God given brains rather than let some sex pervert dictate what we should believe through his brain washing classes
As I mentioned before, commenting on this post – I had such hope you were starting to get on the right track – if I remember correctly from PFAL, wierwille said something along the lines of Hebrews being written to Old Testament minded believers. Even a casual reading of Hebrews will echo that idea of not turning back to Old Testament Law – as reflected in Wikipedia’s article on Hebrews:
“Its purpose was to exhort Christians to persevere in the face of persecution. At this time, certain believers were considering turning back to Judaism (the Jewish system of law) to escape being persecuted for accepting Christ as their saviour, now following this system of grace (saved by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross)”
Getting back to what you said “Under the new covenant in Jesus Christ, particluar components like animal sacrifices and physical circumcision may change but the 7th day sabbath commandment devoted to God is etched in stone” , you have yet to provide scriptural evidence to support this statement.
You want scriptural evidence- and I have been giving it to you all along. If this is not scriptural evidence, I dont know what is:
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you
throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am theLordthat doth sanctify you.
Clearly God is saying here that keeping the 7th day sabbath is what sets apart God's people from the rest
(Jesus Christ as you know is the Lord's sabbath)
How this for being in etched in stone- by the finger of God?
Exodus 31:16-18
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(7th day sabbath is binding and continues forever)
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel(sign- second time-double emphasis that marks out God's people) for ever: (i am sure you know the
meaning of f-o-r-e-v-e-r
for in six days theLordmade heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (Need i say more when i say it was etched in stone)
Futher to the above scriptures, here's is a statement by the rc church who keep sunday as their sabbath day was their church tradition
and plainly state that only the 7th day sabbath is biblical:
These guys know the bible inside out and are proponents of sunday
Catholic VirginianOct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."
You are not bursting my bubble- because I had a suspicion simply because you dont look at obvious evidence/ historical fact to question
(because you asked me a question- i thought maybe you're catching up but now it's so evident that you are a completely different
track to what God wants you to know, understand and observe. It wont happen because you are too far gone which obsures clear cut scriptural
evidence and historical fact
what you believewill deviate from the subject by saying that if
have done all the research in the world and poured through all the material from sea to shning sea- maybe I am not doubting
that but I go by the clear word of God. For me the 7th day sabbath is so very crystal clear
Ok! as if all of this was not enough for you
In addition to me showing you that your anti sabbath stand by quoting Romans-doesnt relate to the the sabbath because it types of food eaten on certain days-pagan customs and colossians 2:16 ( It's exactly the opposite of what you want to believe- Paul is encouraging not to take notice of people harasing them
for keeping the sabbath
Your quoting of Peter's vision to back up the fact that contrary to old testament laws "eating of clean meat and avoiding unclean meat
it is now changed because God told Peter- "Arise, kill and eat" shows that the rules have changed and now we are aloowed to eat anything
I showed you clearly that is not the case because- the vision that Peter received has nothing to eat with clean and unclean met or types of food
and everything to do with how Peter was viewing the gentiles as being clean. God chose food as a way of communicating to illustrate
the point that now post Jesus Christ resurrection- the gentiles are made clean.
So 3 scriptures you have quoted and 3 times I have successfully showed you are wrong.
So I cannot understand how some can pour through all the scriptures- with much prayer and careful diligence
can come to the conclusion that 7th day sabbath is not significant. Frankly I am getting a bit tired
I am going to give this one last shot to decide if i should carry on this conversation or end it.
I am pretty close to ending it because your resistance to 4th cmmandment of sabbath is pretty strong
because you are just so sure and I am very unclear with poor technical skills. I honestly think this is a joke.
(Hope you are not offended-This is how i feel)
At least with someone who can see the significance in light of the clarity of God's word, I maybe be open to reasoning
I know what I know and it is without a shadow of a doubt
Ok! Can you answerYou said in your earlier conversations- The early christians gradually over time did not place emphasis on the sabbath. It was a non issue
We all know that the early christians were taught directly by the apostles who in turn were taught directly be Jesus Christ (The Lord of Sabbath)
I dont know if the term "Lord of the Sabbath" is ringing any bells with you or it's passing you by as though you didnt hear it.
Just answer me this one question:
How is it that during the time of the early christians up until 381AD - There was no historical record of sunday sabbath keeping
and it is only after this period that sunday keeping came into force:
Sunday wasanother work day in the Roman Empire. On March 7, 321, however, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree makingSundaya day of rest from labor, stating: All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. (pagan sun-worship day introduced into christianity)
Yes! We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market. This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the
commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China
This is a bit off topic but meant to bring things back on track.
The scientific community is quite advanced in their ability to trace the genetic origins of various DNA/RNA. They have used those skills in an effort to hone in on the origins of COVID 19. What they have found is that, although the virus that causes COVID 19 exists in Wuhan, it is not the predominant strain.
Some viruses can, indeed, move back and forth between humans and animals. Known examples of this are bird flu and swine flu. As you state, bats carry a vast array of viruses. And bats are common in Asia. But, for a virus to go from a bat to a human it would typically have to pass through an intermediary host, such as a pangolin. No one is absolutely sure where or when this may have taken place.
Bats are not a delicacy in China. In fact, in some locations, consumption of bats is forbidden. People in poor, rural areas, however, will sometimes resort to bats as a readily available source of protein. While that may seem disgusting to us in the US, consider for a moment that people in poor, rural areas of America will sometimes resort to eating squirrels, raccoons, opossums, rattlesnakes, crayfish, alligators and other wild creatures as a readily available source of protein.
The "Wuhan Connection" appears to have been used as a political tool for scapegoating in recent days. Maybe COVID 19 started in Wuhan and maybe it didn't. What we know for sure is that it isn't man-made and that it jumped from an animal (most likely a wild animal) to a human. It's not relevant to a discussion of Biblical taboos. Furthermore, discussion of this specific topic can quickly takes us into political discourse which is something we don't engage in at GSC.
I am going to give this one last shot to decide if i should carry on this conversation or end it.
I am pretty close to ending it because your resistance to 4th cmmandment of sabbath is pretty strong because you are just so sure and I am very unclear with poor technical skills. I honestly think this is a joke.
(Hope you are not offended-This is how i feel)
At least with someone who can see the significance in light of the clarity of God's word, I maybe be open to reasoning
I know what I know and it is without a shadow of a doubt
Ok! Can you answerYou said in your earlier conversations- The early christians gradually over time did not place emphasis on the sabbath. It was a non issue
We all know that the early christians were taught directly by the apostles who in turn were taught directly be Jesus Christ (The Lord of Sabbath)
I dont know if the term "Lord of the Sabbath" is ringing any bells with you or it's passing you by as though you didnt hear it.
Just answer me this one question:
How is it that during the time of the early christians up until 381AD - There was no historical record of sunday sabbath keeping
and it is only after this period that sunday keeping came into force:
Sunday wasanother work day in the Roman Empire. On March 7, 321, however, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree makingSundaya day of rest from labor, stating: All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. (pagan sun-worship day introduced into christianity)
This isn’t rocket science my friend. I am merely stating what a plain and simple reading of the scriptures show. I am not accusing you of having poor technical skills – I am merely finding fault with your logic and forcing your bias into the interpretation of scripture. I don’t consider my participation – or anyone else’s – on this thread as a joke. Believe me I am not offended in any way by what you’ve said. And I hope I haven’t offended you. I’ve done my best to "cross-examine" your ideas, as it were – and did not mean for you to take anything I said as a personal attack..
By the way, thanks for the Wikipedia reference on the Sabbath…
" Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship. This practice was established within Judaism through Mosaic Law, reflecting the commandment to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy and God's blessing of the seventh day (Saturday) making it holy, "because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation" .The practice was associated with the assembly of the people to worship in synagogues on the day known as the Sabbath...The position now dominant in Christianity is that observance of Sunday, called the Lord's Day, has supplanted or superseded the Jewish seventh-day sabbath commandment."
…and note it says “Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship.” “inclusion” and “adoption” speak of the prerogative of our Christian freedom in light of what Christ has accomplished – and does not suggest it was a matter of compliance to some existing law.
love & peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bone a revisionist's nightmare: no edit button
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Listen- I am done with you - you can rant all you like. This is my last conversation with you- You seem so sure of what you saying, yet I can clearly see it's
absolute hog wash- No offence- I think it's better that I end here -otherwise it's a huge waste of time. You have every right to keep commenting and making
everyone feel that you are such a learned champion. If people want to fall it -it's their business
I am not here to win arguments- I only present the truth and God is the one that will open their eyes as he did for me, if you are meek and humble
(You can pooh pooh me all you like on gsc - I don't care-
There is not one scripure that you have quoted that has stacked up in showing the insignificane of the 7th day sabbath.- not one
Everytime you bring out a scripture, it has got nothing to do with the sabbath- here you are associating an unrelated incident and tying it to the
sabbath- "See- it what comes out of your mouth that defiles- nothing else"
The issue here is the pharisees are complaining to Jesus, about eating food with unwashed hands.
Tell me what has eating food with unwashed hands got anything to do with sabbath keeping. Go figure- you dont have to reply because i am done with you
This is such a blind stab- it's laughable
Yes! Jesus was telling us -eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person, it's what comes out of a man's mouth
which proceeds from his heart- this is what can defile. I fully agree with that
But it has got nothing to do with sabbath keeping
The pharisees would have been the first ones to accuse Jesus- if he or his disciples were not keeping sabbath
But they couldnt do so they did the next "best thing" by their estimates that is to accuse His disciples of not washing
their hands when they ate their food. It doesnt even mention anywhere in that chapter- it was on sabbath and even
if it was on the sabbath - eating food with unwashed hands (which is a man made tradition of the jews) has got nothing to do with the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment
Over and out- It's pointless me replying to you again
This is a bit off topic but meant to bring things back on track.
The scientific community is quite advanced in their ability to trace the genetic origins of various DNA/RNA. They have used those skills in an effort to hone in on the origins of COVID 19. What they have found is that, although the virus that causes COVID 19 exists in Wuhan, it is not the predominant strain.
Some viruses can, indeed, move back and forth between humans and animals. Known examples of this are bird flu and swine flu. As you state, bats carry a vast array of viruses. And bats are common in Asia. But, for a virus to go from a bat to a human it would typically have to pass through an intermediary host, such as a pangolin. No one is absolutely sure where or when this may have taken place.
Bats are not a delicacy in China. In fact, in some locations, consumption of bats is forbidden. People in poor, rural areas, however, will sometimes resort to bats as a readily available source of protein. While that may seem disgusting to us in the US, consider for a moment that people in poor, rural areas of America will sometimes resort to eating squirrels, raccoons, opossums, rattlesnakes, crayfish, alligators and other wild creatures as a readily available source of protein.
The "Wuhan Connection" appears to have been used as a political tool for scapegoating in recent days. Maybe COVID 19 started in Wuhan and maybe it didn't. What we know for sure is that it isn't man-made and that it jumped from an animal (most likely a wild animal) to a human. It's not relevant to a discussion of Biblical taboos. Furthermore, discussion of this specific topic can quickly takes us into political discourse which is something we don't engage in at GSC.
Thanks for updating me Waysider on Wuhan and how corona virus migh have spread.
Point taken about focussing on biblical topic at hand
Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath i
Hopefully this will be my last post to you
There you go again, if you can find any detail no matter how insignificant, you make it a major
like as if this quote from wikipedia is grounds that sabbath is insignificant
Reading the above quote, I can see that .The rc church adopted the sabbath and changed it to a sunday-
Even after the early christians, sabbath was such an established practise that it was well known
rc which is pagan "adopted" the sabbath because that was the practise of prevailing christianity but what they did was to change the
sabbath from saturday to sunday, which mainline christianity blindly followed
The above quote is from wikipedia which is a secular source and being non christian, I wouldnt except them to be
clued up on the significance of God's irrevocabale 7th day Sabbath.
They are speaking from a historical basis on what they feel has happened.
In this case the rc church wwhich is full of paganism adopted the sabbath making it "christian"
but changed it from saturday to sunday. They even tell you that 7th day sabbath keeping is biblical and sunday keeping was man made
(rc church tradition)
and they forced it upon everyone else trough the emperor constantine. This is why most of christianity "adopted" this sunday sabbath- not because
they were at libert to do so. It was a decree from Emperor Constantine and they had no choice but to follow it or face death
Bud why dont you go and read "how christians" were persecuted and put to death for keeping the sabbath.
You make the claim that christians were at total liberty in regards to sabbath keeping but that;s not true
For starters, Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath (which I am sure, you will ignore) Secondly the sabbath commandment
is from God and He will never contradict his commandment etched in stone and thirdly
it is said of Jesus Christ being the Lord of the sabbath in Hebrews- that he is the same yesterday, today and forever
With all true christians from the early christian downwards, sabbath was not adopted or optional- it was a given.
The true christians know the clear cut commandment of God and it was an established practise until
Constantine changed it in around 381 ad
Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of theLordthy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days theLordmade heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore theLordblessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Do not treat the wikipedia like as it's the bible.
No! 7th day sabbath keeping is God's commandment e as I have shown you earlier, he has etched in stone which speaks
of permanence. What Christ accomplished on the cross was to free us from the law of sin and death and reconciled us to the
Father. That doesn't mean we dont have to keep the 10 commandments - I am sure you will agree as Christians, we are not to lie or steal
So why is it that out of all the 10 commandments- the 4th sabbath keeping commandment is the only commandment that we ignore and
do contrary what is says. Our liberty comes from keeping the commandments of God and being freed from captivity by the law of sin and death
Read Romans 7-
Romans 3:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
I hope you are genuinely concerned about the importance of the 7th day sabbath
and I will be really happy if you are
and in light of the information and historical proof I have been sharing with you, you are not deviating from
the subject in question: 7th day sabbath largely ignored by christians but hugely important
I hope you are begining to realise that maybe, just maybe it's not as you thought it was- insignificant
Why is this important to you? (Please respond succinctly)
On 4/16/2020 at 1:35 AM, Waxit said:
Thanks for clarifying why you were hurling such huge sections for the the bible to back up your erroneous
thinking (no offence intentended- we all make mistakes and i have highlighted below why rules have
not changed in regards to 7th day sabbath keeping.
Hopefully this will be my last post to you
There you go again, if you can find any detail no matter how insignificant, you make it a major
like as if this quote from wikipedia is grounds that sabbath is insignificant
Reading the above quote, I can see that .The rc church adopted the sabbath and changed it to a sunday-
Even after the early christians, sabbath was such an established practise that it was well known
rc which is pagan "adopted" the sabbath because that was the practise of prevailing christianity but what they did was to change the
sabbath from saturday to sunday, which mainline christianity blindly followed
The above quote is from wikipedia which is a secular source and being non christian, I wouldnt except them to be
clued up on the significance of God's irrevocabale 7th day Sabbath.
They are speaking from a historical basis on what they feel has happened.
In this case the rc church wwhich is full of paganism adopted the sabbath making it "christian"
but changed it from saturday to sunday. They even tell you that 7th day sabbath keeping is biblical and sunday keeping was man made
(rc church tradition)
and they orced it upon everyone else trough the emperor constantine. This is why most of christianity "adopted" this sunday sabbath- not because
they were at libert to do so. It was a decree from Emperor Constantine and they had no choice but to follow it or face death
Bud why dont you go and read "how christians" were persecuted and put to death for keeping the sabbath.
You make the claim that christians were at total liberty in regards to sabbath keeping but that;s not true
For starters, Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath (which I am sure, you will ignore) Secondly the sabbath commandment
by God and He will never contradict his commandment etched in stone and thirdly
it is said of Jesus Christ being the Lord of the sabbath in hebrews- that he is the same yesterday, today and forever
With all true christians from the early christian downwards, sabbath was not adopted or optional- it was a given.
They are blind like you if they dont see this verse beow - No offence but this is how i feel.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of theLordthy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days theLordmade heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore theLordblessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Do not treat the wikipedia like as it's the bible.
No! 7th day sabbath keeping is God's commandment e as I have shown you earlier, he has etched in stone which speaks
of permanence. What Christ accomplished on the cross was to free us from the law of sin and death and reconciled us to the
Father. That doesn't mean we dont have to keep the 10 commandments - I am sure you will agree as Christians, we are not to lie or steal
So why is it that out of all the 10 commandments- the 4th sabbath keeping commandment is the only commandment that we ignore and
do contrary what is says. Our liberty comes from keeping the commandments of God and being freed from captivity by the law of sin and death
Read Romans 7-
Romans 3:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Goodbye- Over and out- Good Night
Waxit...take a big breather brutha ! I know you were like this when you were passionate back in the 'way days' so just as you were flogging a dead horse then, maybe consider you're flogging a differn't but STILL dead horse lol...there are many Christians who enjoy freedom IN Christ and will not be brought 'under the power' of any...FULLSTOP. That is our prerogative and I'm sure we continue to evaluate our lives and beliefs on a week by week if not daily basis. Perhaps that's one of the reasons for assembling together, to observe and evaluate ? However, which DAY that happens to be is down to ones own belief according to their interpretation of the Word of God. Should they meet 4 times a week does that make them a 'multiple sabbath keeper' ? Free to love, free to give, free to serve !!
1) Stop posting emotionally, and stop taking things personally. The idea is that we DISCUSS. When we discuss, we will, sooner or later, disagree. That's normal, and expected in a discussion forum. What do we do when people disagree with us? We don't declare we're right and they're wrong. We can BELIEVE that's true and hold convictions that's true, but our BELIEF that it's so doesn't change anything. There are plenty of people who BELIEVE in things like a flat earth, and that vpw was some super-believer, but their CONVICTION doesn't make it so (and they may be fanatical about that.) We can declare what we believe, just not that it's "obviously the truth" because it's not "obvious" if there's disagreement. We can try to present our "case" so that others will agree with us. We can also pay attention, because we may discover that someone else was right all along, and we may find that the truth was something else, even something we didn't WANT to believe. (I'm speaking from personal experience- I've had others come to agree with me, I've changed to match what I believe was actually the truth even if it reverses my position.)
2) Declaring something's true by fiat STILL doesn't work. In a DISCUSSION forum, we DISCUSS. We can present our case that something is true. Perhaps someone else will add something that makes it a stronger case. More often, they'll point out flaws. Those can be flaws of communication (you MEANT something but SAID something else), of fact (you explained the Greek word used here, but you named the wrong Greek word) , or other problems. These can be addressed, and result in either a stronger case, or the discovery that you can't answer the important questions and may be wrong.
3) Don't type angry. Rather than type angry, get up from the computer, and do something else. Come back in a few hours (or a day), when you can approach things calmly. Whenever I find someone's accusing a CALM poster of being angry, it's usually been because THEY were posting angry and didn't have anything logical to say to refute the other guy's point. So, accuse them of something and pretend you addressed some imaginary flaw in their "argument".
Nobody questioned whether or not Christians moved a Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Wasting your energy to "prove" that may make you feel like you got somewhere, but you didn't. As to if they celebrated a Sabbath, well, that's equally irrelevant to discuss. I think we all agree that many if not most celebrated a Sabbath. "That is as interesting as it is irrelevant."
Now, were they SUPPOSED to celebrate A Sabbath?
THAT is the relevant question. They did it. They thought it was right to do so. Did God say it was necessary for them to do so?
You're actually derailing your own discussion when you don't focus there, and when you start getting personal with the other posters. Don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're addressing any points when you get personal. We've all seen it before, and it didn't work then. (Me, I was labelled "Satan" once when I dared to point out one of vpw's many harmful policies, and that he had no excuse for having it and for supposed ignorance it was harmful. For example.)
Please take a few deep breaths, and approach this thread FRESH. If you were trying to make a point, I think it's gotten completely lost. Please find your points and focus there. Thank you.
Listen- I am done with you - you can rant all you like. This is my last conversation with you- You seem so sure of what you saying, yet I can clearly see it's
absolute hog wash- No offence- I think it's better that I end here -otherwise it's a huge waste of time. You have every right to keep commenting and making
everyone feel that you are such a learned champion. If people want to fall it -it's their business
I am not here to win arguments- I only present the truth and God is the one that will open their eyes as he did for me, if you are meek and humble
(You can pooh pooh me all you like on gsc - I don't care-
There is not one scripure that you have quoted that has stacked up in showing the insignificane of the 7th day sabbath.- not one
Everytime you bring out a scripture, it has got nothing to do with the sabbath- here you are associating an unrelated incident and tying it to the
sabbath- "See- it what comes out of your mouth that defiles- nothing else"
The issue here is the pharisees are complaining to Jesus, about eating food with unwashed hands.
Tell me what has eating food with unwashed hands got anything to do with sabbath keeping. Go figure- you dont have to reply because i am done with you
This is such a blind stab- it's laughable
Yes! Jesus was telling us -eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person, it's what comes out of a man's mouth
which proceeds from his heart- this is what can defile. I fully agree with that
But it has got nothing to do with sabbath keeping
The pharisees would have been the first ones to accuse Jesus- if he or his disciples were not keeping sabbath
But they couldnt do so they did the next "best thing" by their estimates that is to accuse His disciples of not washing
their hands when they ate their food. It doesnt even mention anywhere in that chapter- it was on sabbath and even
if it was on the sabbath - eating food with unwashed hands (which is a man made tradition of the jews) has got nothing to do with the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment
Over and out- It's pointless me replying to you again
"you can rant all you like"
Rant ?!?!?!
seriously, Waxit ?
Rant: speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
Hmmm…thought I was pretty mild and sedate in my comments. However, I’m going to take a stab at your remark and suggest that you may be projecting undesirable feelings onto someone else:
“Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. Have you ever disliked someone only to become convinced that the person had a vendetta against you? This is a common example of psychological projection. Luckily, there are methods you can use to identify why you are projecting your emotions and put a stop to this coping mechanism.” from Every Day Health .
But I’m willing to give you the benefit of a doubt in accusing me of talking in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner. However the only alternative I can think of right now is that this was an underhanded attempt using emotional fallacy – when someone tries to manipulate a recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument – especially in the absence of factual evidence.
Oh, and another small detail - since you're in a huff about me referring to a secular source - I’m not the one who first posted/referred to the Wikipedia article on the Sabbath in Christianity – you did. You focused on one segment of the many twists and turns that the Sabbath in Christianity has experienced throughout the history of Christianity. I focused on the position now dominant in Christianity.
Thanks for expressing your finality of conversing with me - so I don't have to expect you to acknowledge anything I say. That's cool. However, since this is an open forum, I will continue to read and respond to anyone’s post as I see fit. I am not afraid of anyone’s temper tantrums, pontifications, nonsensical arguments, the manipulation of scripture or attempts to take over control of an open discussion. I’m not accusing anyone in particular of all that – just saying if the shoe fits - wear it. I have my own faults and will readily admit to them – half the time I’m walking around in clown shoes anyway – soooooo…lighten up! Folks don’t take much of what I say seriously anyway - - can’t say that I blame them – just look at my avatar.
Edited by T-Bone is there a hidden message in revisions? no just in this box if anyone cares to look
THAT is the relevant question. They did it. They thought it was right to do so. Did God say it was necessary for them to do so?
You're actually derailing your own discussion when you don't focus there, and when you start getting personal with the other posters. Don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're addressing any points when you get personal. We've all seen it before, and it didn't work then. (Me, I was labelled "Satan" once when I dared to point out one of vpw's many harmful policies, and that he had no excuse for having it and for supposed ignorance it was harmful. For example.)
Please take a few deep breaths, and approach this thread FRESH. If you were trying to make a point, I think it's gotten completely lost. Please find your points and focus there. Thank you.
Here's a theory:
WHY did they need a Sabbath way back then?
Because God said so?
Or "did God say so" because otherwise they wouldn't get any days/time off from work?
IDK, but if it was that important to me, I'd want to explore historical records for the sociological practices of the time.
Oh, and another small detail - since you're in a huff about me referring to a secular source - I’m not the one who first posted/referred to the Wikipedia article on the Sabbath in Christianity – you did. You focused on one segment of the many twists and turns that the Sabbath in Christianity has experienced throughout the history of Christianity. I focused on the position now dominant in Christianity.
Ok! aoplogies maybe I used the wrong word and rant is not the word< I should be using
Whatever- you can continue to find insignificant details-
that has nothing to with sabbath keeping.
That has been the case with with every argumen that you brought up.
But you will never bring up and answer why for over 378 years since the early christians, there was no such thing
as a sunday service or sabbayh (Why? Because you cannot answer this and it will put a serious question mark on your anti 7th day sabbath
bias
In regards to wikipedia, i did refer you to it true but the point was this: rc is pagan and sabbath was very much an
established practice so to try and bring christians into their fold- they didnt abolish sabbath keeping because iit would
against what the christians consider as important so they compromised by changing the sabbath from 7th day as commanded by
God to the 1st day (Sun-day in favour of their sun god worship).
The protestants were forced to accept it because of the decree by Emperor Constantine- It was not as if they had the freedom and liberty
(as you are saying) to accept whichever day they wanted to keep sabbath.
It was only after his that the significance of the 7th day sabbath was lost among the so called christian churches
I am sure you might try and argue with something else like a little child that has to have the last word
but i will try and ignore it
Waxit...take a big breather brutha ! I know you were like this when you were passionate back in the 'way days' so just as you were flogging a dead horse then, maybe consider you're flogging a differn't but STILL dead horse lol...there are many Christians who enjoy freedom IN Christ and will not be brought 'under the power' of any...FULLSTOP. That is our prerogative and I'm sure we continue to evaluate our lives and beliefs on a week by week if not daily basis. Perhaps that's one of the reasons for assembling together, to observe and evaluate ? However, which DAY that happens to be is down to ones own belief according to their interpretation of the Word of God. Should they meet 4 times a week does that make them a 'multiple sabbath keeper' ? Free to love, free to give, free to serve !!
Hi Allan- Thanks bro for your advice.
The bible is very clear to set one specific day as a sabbath- the 7th day.-Saturday(it is God's appointed day) (People will interpret it they feel is right-that's their business)
Besides the 7th day sabbath (a special day dedicated to God) , if people want to meet every hour, i say to them go for your life
In practical terms, nobody will want to have muliple sabbaths in a week- God understands that
TWI was 5% ok (keys to rightly interpreting the word of God) and 95% rubbish ( classes where people were being trapped in shaping their mindset towards leadership)
The classes TWI ran (I am not saying everyone does this) were designed to get peoples money and (1) admiration- (pfal), (2) adoration (intermediate & advanced)
(3) loosening of sex boundaries (christian family and sex)
I have got absolutely no hidden agenda for reaching out to people- the reason i do it is because God wants everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth
and what He has taught me through His word- Ilovingly hold forth- People dont receive- That's fine- I just move on
I reach out to people because i love them- maybe there are people where it will click for them- Praise God and they can go to deepen their understanding
of the word of God- not go into a way home and be dominated, controlled and manipulated- another bad mistake on my part
Unfortunately my passion for God was wasted in the wrong crowd at TWI- I regret very much for getting hooked
but if there is any consolation, I did meet wonderful people like yourself and Twinky ( I mean it)
You are right- It's pointless in flogging a dead horse (i.e people whose minds are made up-
(no offence to people in this category- it is just a way of describing a
situation)
I must know when to say goodbye.
1) Stop posting emotionally, and stop taking things personally. The idea is that we DISCUSS. When we discuss, we will, sooner or later, disagree. That's normal, and expected in a discussion forum. What do we do when people disagree with us? We don't declare we're right and they're wrong. We can BELIEVE that's true and hold convictions that's true, but our BELIEF that it's so doesn't change anything. There are plenty of people who BELIEVE in things like a flat earth, and that vpw was some super-believer, but their CONVICTION doesn't make it so (and they may be fanatical about that.) We can declare what we believe, just not that it's "obviously the truth" because it's not "obvious" if there's disagreement. We can try to present our "case" so that others will agree with us. We can also pay attention, because we may discover that someone else was right all along, and we may find that the truth was something else, even something we didn't WANT to believe. (I'm speaking from personal experience- I've had others come to agree with me, I've changed to match what I believe was actually the truth even if it reverses my position.)
2) Declaring something's true by fiat STILL doesn't work. In a DISCUSSION forum, we DISCUSS. We can present our case that something is true. Perhaps someone else will add something that makes it a stronger case. More often, they'll point out flaws. Those can be flaws of communication (you MEANT something but SAID something else), of fact (you explained the Greek word used here, but you named the wrong Greek word) , or other problems. These can be addressed, and result in either a stronger case, or the discovery that you can't answer the important questions and may be wrong.
3) Don't type angry. Rather than type angry, get up from the computer, and do something else. Come back in a few hours (or a day), when you can approach things calmly. Whenever I find someone's accusing a CALM poster of being angry, it's usually been because THEY were posting angry and didn't have anything logical to say to refute the other guy's point. So, accuse them of something and pretend you addressed some imaginary flaw in their "argument".
Nobody questioned whether or not Christians moved a Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Wasting your energy to "prove" that may make you feel like you got somewhere, but you didn't. As to if they celebrated a Sabbath, well, that's equally irrelevant to discuss. I think we all agree that many if not most celebrated a Sabbath. "That is as interesting as it is irrelevant."
Now, were they SUPPOSED to celebrate A Sabbath?
THAT is the relevant question. They did it. They thought it was right to do so. Did God say it was necessary for them to do so?
You're actually derailing your own discussion when you don't focus there, and when you start getting personal with the other posters. Don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're addressing any points when you get personal. We've all seen it before, and it didn't work then. (Me, I was labelled "Satan" once when I dared to point out one of vpw's many harmful policies, and that he had no excuse for having it and for supposed ignorance it was harmful. For example.)
Please take a few deep breaths, and approach this thread FRESH. If you were trying to make a point, I think it's gotten completely lost. Please find your points and focus there. Thank you.
Can i ask you ( It's obvious but I would like an answer- so i can make my point so people wont get lost
- Is the 7th day Sabbath- a law or commandment that is a part of the 10 commandments that was given by God to all christians?
Can i ask you ( It's obvious but I would like an answer- so i can make my point so people wont get lost
- Is the 7th day Sabbath- a law or commandment that is a part of the 10 commandments that was given by God to all christians?
I suspect everyone else, no matter their positions which vary widely- thinks this is obvious in a way you're missing. I'll try to make it a clear question.
What are these "10 commandments that was given by God to all christians" of which you speak?
You've jumped to the ASSUMPTION that everyone is on board with you on this, and you might be entirely out on your own here. So, please speak directly to the question. BTW, it's a completely legit question, and I'm asking it to discuss the answer, so please don't suppose I didn't want an answer, and please don't toss down a glib answer that ducks the question.
In order to propose that the 10 commandment were given by God to all Christians, you have to dismiss the concept of dispensationalism. Conversely, in order to suggest that certain sections of scripture are intended only for a specific time period or group of people you have to embrace the concept of dispensationalism. It's a real dilemma.
In order to propose that the 10 commandment were given by God to all Christians, you have to dismiss the concept of dispensationalism. Conversely, in order to suggest that certain sections of scripture are intended only for a specific time period or group of people you have to embrace the concept of dispensationalism. It's a real dilemma.
Actually, under a "covenantal" framework, they could be part of one or more covenants but excluded from one or more. So, "dispensationalism" could suggest it applied for a certain time, and " covenantal" could suggest it applied to a specific group of people.
I am sorry for the little child remark- I have to show you more respect- that was uncalled for
even if i felt a bit upset that that you were not tracking and not recognising the importance of what i am sharing.
Anyway, it's just how i feel-bacause i talk about "a" and you go on a wild journey about "b" and they are unrelated
You dont have to reply to this because its my own opinion
I remember someone saying that "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"
That's right Allan- You hit the nail on the head -Mark 2:27
God loved his creaion and He created the 7th day as a sabbath- rest
and turned his creation's attention to him as the God the creator (worship)
So if God specifically made the 7th day sabbath for man- How come people ignore it?
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
T-Bone
Maybe we’ve stumbled upon another tributary flowing into the rabbit hole. So let’s back up and look at this too.
your statement “like your verse in romans and Peter' vision ihas nothing to do with clean and unclean food per se and the rules have not changed and certainly doesnt diminish the importance of the 7th day Sabbath keeping relationship and 4th commandment of God ” is a hot mess of circular reasoning. It’s an obvious attempt by you to negate - or perhaps I should put it more emphatically – contradict the obvious meaning of passages that clearly show “the rules” have indeed changed regarding certain foods. Jesus even addressed this in Mark 7
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” Mark 7: 14-23 NIV
As mentioned by other folks on this thread - the burden of proof is upon your shoulders – the rules of debate require you to show by a preponderance of evidence the facts – scriptural evidence – necessary to win the argument that the rules have not changed – even after the revelation of “the gospel” of Jesus Christ – the “good news” of all that was accomplished in the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.
As I mentioned before, commenting on this post – I had such hope you were starting to get on the right track – if I remember correctly from PFAL, wierwille said something along the lines of Hebrews being written to Old Testament minded believers. Even a casual reading of Hebrews will echo that idea of not turning back to Old Testament Law – as reflected in Wikipedia’s article on Hebrews:
“Its purpose was to exhort Christians to persevere in the face of persecution. At this time, certain believers were considering turning back to Judaism (the Jewish system of law) to escape being persecuted for accepting Christ as their saviour, now following this system of grace (saved by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross)”
from Wikipedia article Hebrews
Edited by T-Bonerevisions, revisions, revisions..."Revisions" is my middle name
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Waxit
You want scriptural evidence- and I have been giving it to you all along. If this is not scriptural evidence, I dont know what is:
Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you
throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
Clearly God is saying here that keeping the 7th day sabbath is what sets apart God's people from the rest
(Jesus Christ as you know is the Lord's sabbath)
How this for being in etched in stone- by the finger of God?
Exodus 31:16-18
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(7th day sabbath is binding and continues forever)
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel(sign- second time-double emphasis that marks out God's people) for ever: (i am sure you know the
meaning of f-o-r-e-v-e-r
for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (Need i say more when i say it was etched in stone)
Futher to the above scriptures, here's is a statement by the rc church who keep sunday as their sabbath day was their church tradition
and plainly state that only the 7th day sabbath is biblical:
These guys know the bible inside out and are proponents of sunday
Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."
Ok! as if all of this was not enough for you
In addition to me showing you that your anti sabbath stand by quoting Romans-doesnt relate to the the sabbath because it types of food eaten on certain days-pagan customs and colossians 2:16 ( It's exactly the opposite of what you want to believe- Paul is encouraging not to take notice of people harasing them
for keeping the sabbath
Your quoting of Peter's vision to back up the fact that contrary to old testament laws "eating of clean meat and avoiding unclean meat
it is now changed because God told Peter- "Arise, kill and eat" shows that the rules have changed and now we are aloowed to eat anything
I showed you clearly that is not the case because- the vision that Peter received has nothing to eat with clean and unclean met or types of food
and everything to do with how Peter was viewing the gentiles as being clean. God chose food as a way of communicating to illustrate
the point that now post Jesus Christ resurrection- the gentiles are made clean.
So 3 scriptures you have quoted and 3 times I have successfully showed you are wrong.
So I cannot understand how some can pour through all the scriptures- with much prayer and careful diligence
can come to the conclusion that 7th day sabbath is not significant. Frankly I am getting a bit tired
I am going to give this one last shot to decide if i should carry on this conversation or end it.
I am pretty close to ending it because your resistance to 4th cmmandment of sabbath is pretty strong
because you are just so sure and I am very unclear with poor technical skills. I honestly think this is a joke.
(Hope you are not offended-This is how i feel)
At least with someone who can see the significance in light of the clarity of God's word, I maybe be open to reasoning
I know what I know and it is without a shadow of a doubt
Ok! Can you answerYou said in your earlier conversations- The early christians gradually over time did not place emphasis on the sabbath. It was a non issue
We all know that the early christians were taught directly by the apostles who in turn were taught directly be Jesus Christ (The Lord of Sabbath)
I dont know if the term "Lord of the Sabbath" is ringing any bells with you or it's passing you by as though you didnt hear it.
Just answer me this one question:
How is it that during the time of the early christians up until 381AD - There was no historical record of sunday sabbath keeping
and it is only after this period that sunday keeping came into force:
Sabbath in Christianity - Wikipedia
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waysider
This is a bit off topic but meant to bring things back on track.
The scientific community is quite advanced in their ability to trace the genetic origins of various DNA/RNA. They have used those skills in an effort to hone in on the origins of COVID 19. What they have found is that, although the virus that causes COVID 19 exists in Wuhan, it is not the predominant strain.
Some viruses can, indeed, move back and forth between humans and animals. Known examples of this are bird flu and swine flu. As you state, bats carry a vast array of viruses. And bats are common in Asia. But, for a virus to go from a bat to a human it would typically have to pass through an intermediary host, such as a pangolin. No one is absolutely sure where or when this may have taken place.
Bats are not a delicacy in China. In fact, in some locations, consumption of bats is forbidden. People in poor, rural areas, however, will sometimes resort to bats as a readily available source of protein. While that may seem disgusting to us in the US, consider for a moment that people in poor, rural areas of America will sometimes resort to eating squirrels, raccoons, opossums, rattlesnakes, crayfish, alligators and other wild creatures as a readily available source of protein.
The "Wuhan Connection" appears to have been used as a political tool for scapegoating in recent days. Maybe COVID 19 started in Wuhan and maybe it didn't. What we know for sure is that it isn't man-made and that it jumped from an animal (most likely a wild animal) to a human. It's not relevant to a discussion of Biblical taboos. Furthermore, discussion of this specific topic can quickly takes us into political discourse which is something we don't engage in at GSC.
Edited by waysidermissed a word/spelling
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T-Bone
This isn’t rocket science my friend. I am merely stating what a plain and simple reading of the scriptures show. I am not accusing you of having poor technical skills – I am merely finding fault with your logic and forcing your bias into the interpretation of scripture. I don’t consider my participation – or anyone else’s – on this thread as a joke. Believe me I am not offended in any way by what you’ve said. And I hope I haven’t offended you. I’ve done my best to "cross-examine" your ideas, as it were – and did not mean for you to take anything I said as a personal attack..
By the way, thanks for the Wikipedia reference on the Sabbath…
" Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship. This practice was established within Judaism through Mosaic Law, reflecting the commandment to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy and God's blessing of the seventh day (Saturday) making it holy, "because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation" .The practice was associated with the assembly of the people to worship in synagogues on the day known as the Sabbath...The position now dominant in Christianity is that observance of Sunday, called the Lord's Day, has supplanted or superseded the Jewish seventh-day sabbath commandment."
…and note it says “Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship.” “inclusion” and “adoption” speak of the prerogative of our Christian freedom in light of what Christ has accomplished – and does not suggest it was a matter of compliance to some existing law.
love & peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bonea revisionist's nightmare: no edit button
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Waxit
Listen- I am done with you - you can rant all you like. This is my last conversation with you- You seem so sure of what you saying, yet I can clearly see it's
absolute hog wash- No offence- I think it's better that I end here -otherwise it's a huge waste of time. You have every right to keep commenting and making
everyone feel that you are such a learned champion. If people want to fall it -it's their business
I am not here to win arguments- I only present the truth and God is the one that will open their eyes as he did for me, if you are meek and humble
(You can pooh pooh me all you like on gsc - I don't care-
There is not one scripure that you have quoted that has stacked up in showing the insignificane of the 7th day sabbath.- not one
Everytime you bring out a scripture, it has got nothing to do with the sabbath- here you are associating an unrelated incident and tying it to the
sabbath- "See- it what comes out of your mouth that defiles- nothing else"
The issue here is the pharisees are complaining to Jesus, about eating food with unwashed hands.
Tell me what has eating food with unwashed hands got anything to do with sabbath keeping. Go figure- you dont have to reply because i am done with you
This is such a blind stab- it's laughable
Yes! Jesus was telling us -eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person, it's what comes out of a man's mouth
which proceeds from his heart- this is what can defile. I fully agree with that
But it has got nothing to do with sabbath keeping
The pharisees would have been the first ones to accuse Jesus- if he or his disciples were not keeping sabbath
But they couldnt do so they did the next "best thing" by their estimates that is to accuse His disciples of not washing
their hands when they ate their food. It doesnt even mention anywhere in that chapter- it was on sabbath and even
if it was on the sabbath - eating food with unwashed hands (which is a man made tradition of the jews)
has got nothing to do with the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment
Over and out- It's pointless me replying to you again
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Waxit
Thanks for updating me Waysider on Wuhan and how corona virus migh have spread.
Point taken about focussing on biblical topic at hand
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Waxit
Hopefully this will be my last post to you
There you go again, if you can find any detail no matter how insignificant, you make it a major
like as if this quote from wikipedia is grounds that sabbath is insignificant
Reading the above quote, I can see that .The rc church adopted the sabbath and changed it to a sunday-
Even after the early christians, sabbath was such an established practise that it was well known
rc which is pagan "adopted" the sabbath because that was the practise of prevailing christianity but what they did was to change the
sabbath from saturday to sunday, which mainline christianity blindly followed
The above quote is from wikipedia which is a secular source and being non christian, I wouldnt except them to be
clued up on the significance of God's irrevocabale 7th day Sabbath.
They are speaking from a historical basis on what they feel has happened.
In this case the rc church wwhich is full of paganism adopted the sabbath making it "christian"
but changed it from saturday to sunday. They even tell you that 7th day sabbath keeping is biblical and sunday keeping was man made
(rc church tradition)
and they forced it upon everyone else trough the emperor constantine. This is why most of christianity "adopted" this sunday sabbath- not because
they were at libert to do so. It was a decree from Emperor Constantine and they had no choice but to follow it or face death
Bud why dont you go and read "how christians" were persecuted and put to death for keeping the sabbath.
You make the claim that christians were at total liberty in regards to sabbath keeping but that;s not true
For starters, Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath (which I am sure, you will ignore) Secondly the sabbath commandment
is from God and He will never contradict his commandment etched in stone and thirdly
it is said of Jesus Christ being the Lord of the sabbath in Hebrews- that he is the same yesterday, today and forever
With all true christians from the early christian downwards, sabbath was not adopted or optional- it was a given.
The true christians know the clear cut commandment of God and it was an established practise until
Constantine changed it in around 381 ad
Exodus 20:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Do not treat the wikipedia like as it's the bible.
No! 7th day sabbath keeping is God's commandment e as I have shown you earlier, he has etched in stone which speaks
of permanence. What Christ accomplished on the cross was to free us from the law of sin and death and reconciled us to the
Father. That doesn't mean we dont have to keep the 10 commandments - I am sure you will agree as Christians, we are not to lie or steal
So why is it that out of all the 10 commandments- the 4th sabbath keeping commandment is the only commandment that we ignore and
do contrary what is says. Our liberty comes from keeping the commandments of God and being freed from captivity by the law of sin and death
Read Romans 7-
Romans 3:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Goodbye- Over and out- Good Night
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Rocky
Why is this important to you? (Please respond succinctly)
Oh really?
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Allan
Waxit...take a big breather brutha ! I know you were like this when you were passionate back in the 'way days' so just as you were flogging a dead horse then, maybe consider you're flogging a differn't but STILL dead horse lol...there are many Christians who enjoy freedom IN Christ and will not be brought 'under the power' of any...FULLSTOP. That is our prerogative and I'm sure we continue to evaluate our lives and beliefs on a week by week if not daily basis. Perhaps that's one of the reasons for assembling together, to observe and evaluate ? However, which DAY that happens to be is down to ones own belief according to their interpretation of the Word of God. Should they meet 4 times a week does that make them a 'multiple sabbath keeper' ? Free to love, free to give, free to serve !!
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WordWolf
Waxit, some things....
1) Stop posting emotionally, and stop taking things personally. The idea is that we DISCUSS. When we discuss, we will, sooner or later, disagree. That's normal, and expected in a discussion forum. What do we do when people disagree with us? We don't declare we're right and they're wrong. We can BELIEVE that's true and hold convictions that's true, but our BELIEF that it's so doesn't change anything. There are plenty of people who BELIEVE in things like a flat earth, and that vpw was some super-believer, but their CONVICTION doesn't make it so (and they may be fanatical about that.) We can declare what we believe, just not that it's "obviously the truth" because it's not "obvious" if there's disagreement. We can try to present our "case" so that others will agree with us. We can also pay attention, because we may discover that someone else was right all along, and we may find that the truth was something else, even something we didn't WANT to believe. (I'm speaking from personal experience- I've had others come to agree with me, I've changed to match what I believe was actually the truth even if it reverses my position.)
2) Declaring something's true by fiat STILL doesn't work. In a DISCUSSION forum, we DISCUSS. We can present our case that something is true. Perhaps someone else will add something that makes it a stronger case. More often, they'll point out flaws. Those can be flaws of communication (you MEANT something but SAID something else), of fact (you explained the Greek word used here, but you named the wrong Greek word) , or other problems. These can be addressed, and result in either a stronger case, or the discovery that you can't answer the important questions and may be wrong.
3) Don't type angry. Rather than type angry, get up from the computer, and do something else. Come back in a few hours (or a day), when you can approach things calmly. Whenever I find someone's accusing a CALM poster of being angry, it's usually been because THEY were posting angry and didn't have anything logical to say to refute the other guy's point. So, accuse them of something and pretend you addressed some imaginary flaw in their "argument".
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WordWolf
BTW,
Nobody questioned whether or not Christians moved a Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Wasting your energy to "prove" that may make you feel like you got somewhere, but you didn't. As to if they celebrated a Sabbath, well, that's equally irrelevant to discuss. I think we all agree that many if not most celebrated a Sabbath. "That is as interesting as it is irrelevant."
Now, were they SUPPOSED to celebrate A Sabbath?
THAT is the relevant question. They did it. They thought it was right to do so. Did God say it was necessary for them to do so?
You're actually derailing your own discussion when you don't focus there, and when you start getting personal with the other posters. Don't think you're fooling anyone into thinking you're addressing any points when you get personal. We've all seen it before, and it didn't work then. (Me, I was labelled "Satan" once when I dared to point out one of vpw's many harmful policies, and that he had no excuse for having it and for supposed ignorance it was harmful. For example.)
Please take a few deep breaths, and approach this thread FRESH. If you were trying to make a point, I think it's gotten completely lost. Please find your points and focus there. Thank you.
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T-Bone
"you can rant all you like"
Rant ?!?!?!
seriously, Waxit ?
Rant: speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
Hmmm…thought I was pretty mild and sedate in my comments. However, I’m going to take a stab at your remark and suggest that you may be projecting undesirable feelings onto someone else:
“Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. Have you ever disliked someone only to become convinced that the person had a vendetta against you? This is a common example of psychological projection. Luckily, there are methods you can use to identify why you are projecting your emotions and put a stop to this coping mechanism.” from Every Day Health .
But I’m willing to give you the benefit of a doubt in accusing me of talking in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner. However the only alternative I can think of right now is that this was an underhanded attempt using emotional fallacy – when someone tries to manipulate a recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument – especially in the absence of factual evidence.
Oh, and another small detail - since you're in a huff about me referring to a secular source - I’m not the one who first posted/referred to the Wikipedia article on the Sabbath in Christianity – you did. You focused on one segment of the many twists and turns that the Sabbath in Christianity has experienced throughout the history of Christianity. I focused on the position now dominant in Christianity.
Thanks for expressing your finality of conversing with me - so I don't have to expect you to acknowledge anything I say. That's cool. However, since this is an open forum, I will continue to read and respond to anyone’s post as I see fit. I am not afraid of anyone’s temper tantrums, pontifications, nonsensical arguments, the manipulation of scripture or attempts to take over control of an open discussion. I’m not accusing anyone in particular of all that – just saying if the shoe fits - wear it. I have my own faults and will readily admit to them – half the time I’m walking around in clown shoes anyway
– soooooo…lighten up! Folks don’t take much of what I say seriously anyway - - can’t say that I blame them – just look at my avatar. 
Edited by T-Boneis there a hidden message in revisions? no just in this box if anyone cares to look
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Twinky
Funny fellow, T-Bone, you put yourself down too much. I know you've done a lot of careful and very deep thinking.
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Rocky
Here's a theory:
WHY did they need a Sabbath way back then?
Because God said so?
Or "did God say so" because otherwise they wouldn't get any days/time off from work?
IDK, but if it was that important to me, I'd want to explore historical records for the sociological practices of the time.
Edited by Rockywho cares?
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Allan
I remember someone saying that "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"
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Waxit
Ok! aoplogies maybe I used the wrong word and rant is not the word< I should be using
Whatever- you can continue to find insignificant details-
that has nothing to with sabbath keeping.
That has been the case with with every argumen that you brought up.
But you will never bring up and answer why for over 378 years since the early christians, there was no such thing
as a sunday service or sabbayh (Why? Because you cannot answer this and it will put a serious question mark on your anti 7th day sabbath
bias
In regards to wikipedia, i did refer you to it true but the point was this: rc is pagan and sabbath was very much an
established practice so to try and bring christians into their fold- they didnt abolish sabbath keeping because iit would
against what the christians consider as important so they compromised by changing the sabbath from 7th day as commanded by
God to the 1st day (Sun-day in favour of their sun god worship).
The protestants were forced to accept it because of the decree by Emperor Constantine- It was not as if they had the freedom and liberty
(as you are saying) to accept whichever day they wanted to keep sabbath.
It was only after his that the significance of the 7th day sabbath was lost among the so called christian churches
I am sure you might try and argue with something else like a little child that has to have the last word
Edited by Waxitbut i will try and ignore it
Sayonara- No hard feelings
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Waxit
Hi Allan- Thanks bro for your advice.
Edited by WaxitThe bible is very clear to set one specific day as a sabbath- the 7th day.-Saturday(it is God's appointed day) (People will interpret it they feel is right-that's their business)
Besides the 7th day sabbath (a special day dedicated to God) , if people want to meet every hour, i say to them go for your life
In practical terms, nobody will want to have muliple sabbaths in a week- God understands that
TWI was 5% ok (keys to rightly interpreting the word of God) and 95% rubbish ( classes where people were being trapped in shaping their mindset towards leadership)
The classes TWI ran (I am not saying everyone does this) were designed to get peoples money and (1) admiration- (pfal), (2) adoration (intermediate & advanced)
(3) loosening of sex boundaries (christian family and sex)
I have got absolutely no hidden agenda for reaching out to people- the reason i do it is because God wants everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth
and what He has taught me through His word- Ilovingly hold forth- People dont receive- That's fine- I just move on
I reach out to people because i love them- maybe there are people where it will click for them- Praise God and they can go to deepen their understanding
of the word of God- not go into a way home and be dominated, controlled and manipulated- another bad mistake on my part
Unfortunately my passion for God was wasted in the wrong crowd at TWI- I regret very much for getting hooked
but if there is any consolation, I did meet wonderful people like yourself and Twinky ( I mean it)
You are right- It's pointless in flogging a dead horse (i.e people whose minds are made up-
(no offence to people in this category- it is just a way of describing a
situation)
I must know when to say goodbye.
Regards
Waxit
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Waxit
Thanks Bro- Appreciated
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Waxit
Can i ask you ( It's obvious but I would like an answer- so i can make my point so people wont get lost
- Is the 7th day Sabbath- a law or commandment that is a part of the 10 commandments that was given by God to all christians?
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WordWolf
I suspect everyone else, no matter their positions which vary widely- thinks this is obvious in a way you're missing. I'll try to make it a clear question.
What are these "10 commandments that was given by God to all christians" of which you speak?
You've jumped to the ASSUMPTION that everyone is on board with you on this, and you might be entirely out on your own here. So, please speak directly to the question. BTW, it's a completely legit question, and I'm asking it to discuss the answer, so please don't suppose I didn't want an answer, and please don't toss down a glib answer that ducks the question.
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waysider
In order to propose that the 10 commandment were given by God to all Christians, you have to dismiss the concept of dispensationalism. Conversely, in order to suggest that certain sections of scripture are intended only for a specific time period or group of people you have to embrace the concept of dispensationalism. It's a real dilemma.
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WordWolf
Actually, under a "covenantal" framework, they could be part of one or more covenants but excluded from one or more. So, "dispensationalism" could suggest it applied for a certain time, and " covenantal" could suggest it applied to a specific group of people.
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Waxit
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
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Waxit
That's right Allan- You hit the nail on the head -Mark 2:27
God loved his creaion and He created the 7th day as a sabbath- rest
and turned his creation's attention to him as the God the creator (worship)
So if God specifically made the 7th day sabbath for man- How come people ignore it?
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