Sorry Rocky! I meant to say I honestly dont know what God thinks? Do you?
He will be able to figure out exactly what i am thinking but i wont be able to figure out what he's thinking not in a miilion years- make that all of eternity
Right. No need to apologize (to me anyway). No I don't presume to know what God thinks. That includes what he thinks about all the people who don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday but do instead on Sunday.
I understand that there's a lot of paradox in Christian scriptures and that it is presumptuous of us to judge based on our limited understanding of the complexities of those paradoxes.
God still loves you no matter - He even tells us to love our enemies (You are not an enemy to me-please don't take it the wrong way)
but God is also a God of Justice
Why are you apparently so intent on judging them? Do you know what's in their hearts?
I am not judging them. i am just saying they dont keep the biblical sabbath that's all
If the God of the bible says turn up on saturday, if you are going to honour him, will you turn up
on sunday? So they are pefrectly entitled to keep their sunday sabbath but it's not what the
God of the bible wanted- right heart but wrong day appointment was made
Waxit, can I recommend BibleHub to you? Very good and easy to check references, versions, etc, and easy to compare different translations; about a dozen or maybe more are offered for every verse. And you can compare these verses, to get a fuller sense; read whole chapters; and read many commentaries from many different commentators on verses, passages, customs, etc.
I am looking in bible hub now
It looks like most versions are saying; it's gates rather than towns- These are just the first few versions
that came up - whether it's towns or gates- it's important to get it translated of what it means in original greek- The greek language is pretty accurate while the english translators sometimes
just monkey around and that's why we cannot tell the difference until we check in the greek interlinear or lexicon etc
New International Version but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.
King James Bible But the seventh dayisthe sabbath of the LORD thy God:in itthou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger thatiswithin thy gates:
Darby Bible Translation but the seventh day is the sabbath of Jehovah thy God: thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy bondman, nor thy handmaid, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
World English Bible but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates;
Young's Literal Translation and the seventh day is a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, --
I wouldnt be surprised if the word "towns" might be translated into gates in the original greek
It would be really difficult to enforce the sawbbath in a place where you dont have a control as in an individual household.
However sabbath in those days in the israeli township is if i am not mistaken a religious and civil law much like friday mosque prayers
are for the islamic middle east. So if that's the case- yes 7th day sabbath keeping can be a rule of law
When i go to strongs lexicon- this is what i get? within אֲשֶׁ֥֣ר(’ă·šer) Pronoun - relative Strong's Hebrew 834:1) (relative part.)1a) which, who1b) that which2) (conj)2a) that (in obj clause)2b) when2c) since2d) as2e) conditional if
your gates. בִּשְׁעָרֶֽ֔יךָ(biš·‘ā·re·ḵā) Preposition-b | Noun - masculine plural construct | second person masculine singular Strong's Hebrew 8179:1) gate1a) gate (of entrance)1b) gate (of space inside gate, i.e. marketplace, public meeting place)1b1) city, town1c) gate (of palace, royal castle, temple, court of tabernacle)1d) heaven
To me within your gates- i.e space inside, implies somehting that is within your control
God would never expect you to command sabbath keeping over an area that you do not have control of.
only within your gates where you have control
I will get back to you on the land sabbath- that's a tricky one
Looking back on my Way days, I have to cringe at how we did "word studies", looking at words in the text and translating them into English. We were like first graders trying to explain how nuclear energy works.
I'm currently a casual learner of Korean. The whole process has opened my eyes immensely. It's only been 75 years since the Korean War, but the differences between the language spoken in the north and the language spoken in the south are mind boggling. Yes, it's the same language, people from the north can understand people from the south and vice versa, however, there are wide divergences that have taken place in a remarkably short period of time. So much so that people defecting from the north take special language classes just to get up to speed with the changes. Cultural changes, in particular, are a major driving factor in how any language evolves. Take, for example, a simple word like "you". That would seem easy enough. How many variations could there possibly be? Well, there are probably 8 or 10 variations (that I'm aware of) and they each have a context that dictates whether the correct one is being used. A large part of that context involves the situation, the person being addressed, the essence of the message and a whole lot of other things. That's just one little word and you had better get it right if you don't want your intentions to be completely misunderstood. Now, expand that process over thousands of years and it becomes a little clearer how self delusional we were in our understanding of some of these matters. This is why, when it comes to understanding scripture, it benefits us to give due consideration to scholars who have spent entire careers delving into the intricacies of translation. That doesn't mean you should stop trying. It just means you need to recognize you are on a path of learning that goes on forever.
Yes, I understand that we're talking about a 24 hour period. (from even until even) Did you really believe people didn't understand that?
The calendar you're citing didn't exist on "Day#1". So, how did you conclude that "Day #1" took place on (what we now call) Sunday?
There's no need to be pompous. Wierwille used that "I didn't write the book" nonsense all the time when he couldn't muster an appropriate response. If you don't know the answer to something just say so instead of trying to shift the burden of explanation to the other person.
Look vpw- had a vey cunning way of getting people to believe him by hiding behind the word of God in a deceitful way
I dont do that
so dont compare me with vpw- he talks about integrity but himself is full of bs
wwhat vpw says go here and see for yourself but when it comes to stuff that he doesnt want people to know or ignorant of
for instance sabbath- he just takes it at face value or out of context- for instance one man esteemeth one day above another
but when he wants someone to change their opinion on a generally accepted principle- he goes into detail - like reading it in context
and all that- he's a very sly sewer rat
I know that the calendar didnt exist in day #1 from the beginning of creation
when the calendar system started with the earliest babylonian civilization- they simply adopted what God had set up
day 1 to day 7 - it just continued that way.
I suggest you google and do research on it- i am not the authority on calendars
the days were given names and the months wwere given names once the roman calendar system started after the
babylonian calendar systen- this is mu understanding
the romans started giving names so day 1- came o be called sunday- day of the sun in the english version- the day the pagans nominated as the day for sunworship day 7 the sabbath day commanded by God came to be called saturday in the english version- agian this is my understanding
If you are going to be rude with me again- i will simply ignore your posts ok- i am trying to be helpful and patient as i can-
i cannot assume that people will know everything- if you look at how i worded the sentence "you know about the book of daniel right? I dont mean to put you down
I am just confirming that you know the book of daniel right and you are aware of the fact that he enquired with God right and for you to consider the fact that christians who have the indwelling Holy Spirit can talk to God
If you are going to pick a fight with me for every little thing - then i will just say goodbye
Nothing in this explains why day #1 had to have been what we now call Sunday. Who knows? Maybe it was what we call a Tuesday or a Thursday. We can't draw any definite conclusion from what is written. The pagan calendar hypothesis is nothing more than a historic retrofit.
I amnot judging them. i am just saying they dont keep the biblical sabbath that's all
If the God of the bible says turn up on saturday, if you are going to honour him, will you turn up
on sunday? So they are pefrectly entitled to keep their sunday sabbath but it's not what the
God of the bible wanted- right heart but wrong day appointment was made
How do you know what's going on in their hearts?
It seems that for what you do to be what you think it is, you'd have to start with an error-free version/translation of the Bible.
Pay attention. I think you may find the old translators have a MUCH wider grasp of ancient languages than you, even with the best concordance that's available to you. They spent years, decades, studying ancient languages and customs and the history of the region and the idioms and nuances, perhaps nuances across regions, of those ancient languages. Well. These are the type of scholarly individuals who prepared the concordances; of course they know better than the average joe.
How thoroughly do you know - say - the language of the country where you now live? And the development of that language over - let's keep it short - 500 years?
What about your knowledge of the development of the English language, and its nuances, idioms and variations over different regions of a country (say, just England) (Sottish, Welsh and Irish versions of English are different again) over the last - say - 1000 years? Do you know, for example, that people in the north of England use a significant number of words that are unknown in the southwest, and vice versa? How many different meanings do you know to the not uncommon word "mash"? That has meanings that many people would know, but also has some local variant meanings that are unknown elsewhere.
Here's a really simple question: in 20th and 21st century (=now), what does one mean by "the city" in England?
Does it mean the same if you say, "city"? or the "city"?
Now go back to the development of these languages, that you are familiar with, and think about how much you know of them 3000 years ago. Because right now you're laying your 21st century ideas on top of what you read. And you must clear your head of 21st century ideas and stick your head into 3000 years ago to understand well enough. Can you honestly say that you can do that?
If you can't do that with something that you are familiar with, why do you think you can know more than scholars who have spent lifetimes and developed huge expertise and worked with other scholars of huge expertise, refining ideas knowledge and understanding - that they then graciously share with those of us of lesser intellect and expertise.
I think you may find that "gates" refers to the gates of the city (try reading, say, Nehemiah, where the walls and gates of the city were repaired). And the control over the gates and the city enclosed by the walls and the gates rested with the public authorities, which in ancient Israel were the religious authorities.
Gates as in gates to an individual garden probably weren't common. Likely the houses were straight onto the street, most unlikely into a front or back garden of a house such as in modern day. Gates might well be only for compounds for animals to be kept safe at night, in warmer months when animals were in fields (and not in the winter months when animals were usually in the same dwelling with their owners).
Waxit, I recommended BibleHub to you (it sounds as though it's new to you?) not so that you could find another way to go picking and choosing, but to help improve your deeper study and scholastic ability.
Please tell me you're not using this to get nitpicky and evasive when asked questions. (You may quote this paragraph should you choose to reply to this comment.) (= 15 words plus 13 in parentheses.)
Waxit, I recommended BibleHub to you (it sounds as though it's new to you?) not so that you could find another way to go picking and choosing, but to help improve your deeper study and scholastic ability.
Please tell me you're not using this to get nitpicky and evasive when asked questions. (You may quote this paragraph should you choose to reply to this comment.) (= 15 words plus 13 in parentheses.)
I am answering your questions Twinky- I am not nit picking- I am answering your quesions- after i have answered your questions
remember it's your turn to answer my questions- to be fair
You are the one who wants "chapter and verse." You are the one who wants the scripture slug-fest. You are the one who persists in a view not common here, so you are the one who needs to support it in face of many verses which appear to present something different.
Actually you will have to prove why sabbath is insigficant in light of what God is clearly saying in the bible
Just to set the record straight in regards to your comment above - you are right there are many verses that "appear" to present something different.
The operative word being "appear" but every one of them has been proven to be either out of context/ not atually related to sabbath keeping
or translation error when compared to the original greek.
In light of the clear commandments from God (The ultimate authority)in Exodus 20:8-11, you should look for reasons why 7th day sabbath is important
God clearly says in:
1John 2::3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.(includes 7th day sabbath keeping)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments (includes 7th day sabbath keeping),
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I dont think you will be able to answer the above scriptures if you keep sunday (man made traditions)
God's 4th commandment in the 10 commandments is very specific- the 7th day
God never commanded sunday keeping. There was a special day, he sancified and created for
mankind for man to devote time with Him (God) in rest, worship and fellowship and that is the 7th day sabbath (saturday-7th day of the week)
Please tell me you're not using this to get nitpicky and evasive when asked questions. (You may quote this paragraph should you choose to reply to this comment.) (= 15 words plus 13 in parentheses.)
Let's see who is evasive
You have asked to explain Land sabbath- Iand how it's not practical to keep the land fallow and rested in the 7th year- I have explained it
you have asked to explain Exodus 20:10- how's it's impractical for someone to be responsible for sabbath keeping
in the whole "town"- (most versions say it's gate and the greek translation is "within the gates" - I have explained it
I have asked you to explain:
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments(includes 7th day sabbayh): and his commandments are not grievous.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
I have asked you to explain:
John 14:
21 He that hath my commandments,(includes 7th day sabbayh) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
you said: “In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing” – yes, you’re absolutely right - they did have religious activities on certain days - such as the Sabbath set aside as a day of worship – a religious activity.
my friend - the words in red refers to pagan religious feasts not christian at all
when i said "religious activity" i meant pagan religious activity- nothing to do with sabbath- pagans at that time had nothing to with sabbath
context is christian converts who were former pagans- the issue was about food
One last shot go to this link https://rcg.org/questions/p085.a.html and give it some thought:
I don't belong to this church but I do believe they give a good explanation of the context
"One man esteemeth one day" has got nothing to with sabbath or pagan holidays- it has got to do with
the pagan practise of eating particular food on certain days- whether vegetarian or meat
If you still cannot see what I am saying and what is being said and come to the conclusion: that it is referring to sabbth
so be it- believe what you want to believe
Let's just be friends- let's not go on about sabbath anymore- as i told you- no one can convince you of sabbath
7th day sabbath keeping is a spiritual decision and can only come from spiritual discernment>
Let's just stop here- I am pretty sure that even if you went to the link above- it will make no difference and you will still
maintain that Paul was talking about the sabbath. |
You are welcome to belive want you want to believe, just dont talk to me on the 7th day sabbath keeping cmmandment any more
Sayonara- if you have any "puny" jokes by all means.
I am pretty sure I will be winding down on gsc bible discussions
Let's see who is evasive
You have asked to explain Land sabbath- Iand how it's not practical to keep the land fallow and rested in the 7th year- I have explained it
you have asked to explain Exodus 20:10- how's it's impractical for someone to be responsible for sabbath keeping
in the whole "town"- (most versions say it's gate and the greek translation is "within the gates" - I have explained it
I have asked you to explain:
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments(includes 7th day sabbayh): and his commandments are not grievous.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
I have asked you to explain:
John 14:
21 He that hath my commandments,(includes 7th day sabbayh) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
Why do you feel it’s necessary to insert “(includes 7th day sabbayh)” in certain verses?
How would you feel if someone inserted “(includes 7th day sabbayh)” in other verses like:
“because by the works of the Law ( includes 7th day sabbayh) no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) comes the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20
“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law ( includes 7th day sabbayh ) but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) ; since by the works of the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) no flesh will be justified.” Galatians 2:16
== == ==
1 hour ago, Waxit said:
my friend - the words in red refers to pagan religious feasts not christian at all
when i said "religious activity" i meant pagan religious activity- nothing to do with sabbath- pagans at that time had nothing to with sabbath
context is christian converts who were former pagans- the issue was about food
One last shot go to this link https://rcg.org/questions/p085.a.html and give it some thought:
I don't belong to this church but I do believe they give a good explanation of the context
"One man esteemeth one day" has got nothing to with sabbath or pagan holidays- it has got to do with
the pagan practise of eating particular food on certain days- whether vegetarian or meat
If you still cannot see what I am saying and what is being said and come to the conclusion: that it is referring to sabbth
so be it- believe what you want to believe
Let's just be friends- let's not go on about sabbath anymore- as i told you- no one can convince you of sabbath
7th day sabbath keeping is a spiritual decision and can only come from spiritual discernment>
Let's just stop here- I am pretty sure that even if you went to the link above- it will make no difference and you will still
maintain that Paul was talking about the sabbath. |
You are welcome to belive want you want to believe, just dont talk to me on the 7th day sabbath keeping cmmandment any more
Sayonara- if you have any "puny" jokes by all means.
I am pretty sure I will be winding down on gsc bible discussions
Regards
Waxit
Ok – I now understand that’s what you meant – but you’re still wrong.
First off, it is obvious from the context (and I’ve re-posted Rom. 14:1-6 further below) Paul is addressing two categories of Christians – ones who are weak in the faith and ones who are more confident in their convictions of the faith.
And second, Paul is NOTjust talking about food – since he also mentions the word “day”.
Furthermore, why would Paul be talking about pagan religious activity and then actually condone the activity? That makes no sense!
What if I insert “(includes pagan religious activity)” in Romans 14 to read something like this – “One person regards one day (includes pagan religious activity) above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day (includes pagan religious activity) , observes it for the Lord”…
== == == == ==
== == == == ==
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....Romans 14: 1-6 NASB
21 He that hath my commandments,(includes 7th day sabbayh) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
Following the examples you yourself think appropriate, I could say: WHERE exactly does it say that Jesus COMMANDED us to keep the Sabbath? He says, Keep MY (my, my,my) commandments.
And Jesus's biggest commandments (if you like) are these:
FIRSTLY
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a]
SECONDLY
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Note: ONLY TWO commandments. And I can't see any mention of any kind of special days, sabbath or otherwise.
And Jesus himself says: There is no commandment greater than these.
Note that it DOES NOT SAY:
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and you must keep the sabbath.
In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence. Even you have to agree that ... don't you?
Waxit sent me a reply to a question I asked him earlier, but which for some unknown reason he was unable to post here. I have his permission to quote his email to me. I am not endorsing his views and leave it to others to have their say on what Waxit says:
For some reason, it's a bit weird but I am unable to use the gsc platform to reply to you.
Rather than have you think I am ignoring you or I am not able to answer your questions on sabbath, I thought I would send you a quick email.
You said: I think you may find that "gates" refers to the gates of the city (try reading, say, Nehemiah, where the walls and gates of the city were repaired). And the control over the gates and the city enclosed by the walls and the gates rested with the public authorities, which in ancient Israel were the religious authorities.
(precisely- the religious authorities were able to enforce the sabbath because it was under their control)
Whether it say gates as in individual household or gates within the city- the meaning is the same "within the gates" implies within your control or within your jurisdiction as in the city gates. I thought I explained it to you.
Firstly, I explained to you that God will never expect you to enforce the 4th sabbath keeping commandment in an area
where you do not have jurisdiction or control over.
Secondly, I did tell you I used bible hub and it's pretty handy tool- and I am not deliberately choosing only those versions which have "gates" instead of "towns"
The overwhelming majority of versions on bible hub which you recommended have the word "gates" so i dont know where you got the info that a majority of the versions say "towns"
Regardless of whether it's gates or towns" - the focus here is "within thy gates" which when put into perspective is within your control or within thy gates
and you are right in implying that it would not be feasible in enforcing the sabbath for the whole town when it'not a national law or you dont have control over what some other person outside your house can or cannot do in relation to 7th day sabbath keeping
The orthodox jews rejected Jesus Christ (The Lord of the Sabbath) and kept the sabbath according to their man made traditions
The God of the bible says, "sabbath was made for man". The idea of sabbath is to take man away from his/her daily toils or engaginged in money making activities and be in an environment where you have eveything like your home or gathering and have a quality time of rest and refreshment where God's word brings healing, strength. Remember sabbath was made for man, if you get stuck somewhere and out of necessity you need to buy a coca cola drink, God is not going to come down with a six by four - (He loves you and knows your need) but the jews practise the sabbath the other way around (contrary to God's word) with their man made traditions
You will notice when the pharisees confronted Jesus Christ on account of His disciples-
"It was never if they kept the sabbath but it was always how they kept it"
In replying to the Jews as to the "inappropriate" (pharisee man made traditions) way Jesus and His disciples were keeping the sabbath
Jesus said:
Mark 7:6
Thirdly and lastly in regards to land sabbath, you will notice it is not one of the 10 commandments. It is not a relationship commandment as the 7th day sabbath of Exodus 20:8-11
it is meant to be a benefit (Increased production) that comes to farmers who rest their land. It is even a good agricultural produce.
If you dont have a land to rest in these days where people depend on supermarkets, it shouldnt be a problem.
The question arises then how is a christian farmer and a sabbath keeper going to survive if he is going lay fallow a land for 1 whole year
There are ways around it. In the past you will recall Joseph in genesis stored grain in grain houseswhen it was plentiful and managed
to feed the nations by supplying them with corn for 3 years. The income that he sets aside for one whole year, he can then use it to buy
supermarket food and yes, you are right during this time, God allowed people to be engaged in other occupations.
In regards to the sabbath being quoted 84 times in the book of acts. Hmmm! I thought that I did see this sometime ago
If I am wrong- I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying that
Waxit wants to add the word Sabbath to scriptures. The only way he is going to be able to add enough of the word Sabbath to scriptures to match his mindset, especially in the New Testament and the writings of the apostle Paul to the Gentiles, is to come up with his own new bible version. At least Waxit partially saw his error of 84 usages of the word Sabbath in the book of Acts. Because I have very good biblical study software and I even passed 3rd and 4th grade math, I was able to count 9 usages of the word Sabbath in the book of Acts for both the New International Version and the King James Version instead of 84.You people can double check to see if I can count while perhaps still being able to at least pass third grade math. However, perhaps I am cheating now with the help of my biblical study software. Perhaps I should have kept that secret.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a]
SECONDLY
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Note: ONLY TWO commandments. And I can't see any mention of any kind of special days, sabbath or otherwise.
And Jesus himself says: There is no commandment greater than these.
Why dont you keep going and read further - the next verse
Matt 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandmentshang all the law and the prophets.
Does verse 40 say- just do the 2 greatest commandments and forget about the rest????. - I dont think so-
that's not wwhat verse 40 is saying- it's saying that all the laws and commandments hang on the foundation which is love God with all your heart
and love your neighbour. Come on- if went to live in a house- would you lop off the house from the foundation upwwards- no roof nothing -just only the foundation is there- sleep on the floor under open skies
Of course- you need the whole house- and Jesus gives the whole picrture in vs 40 - On these two commandmentshang all the law and the prophets.
Let me show howin what ways God is clewarly indicating a christian keeps the sabbth
and also now that we have got the whole picture Twinky - let's delve what God says proves that you love God biblically
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (includes 7th day sabbath): and his commandments are not grievous
He is even telling us further His commandments are grievious- would you consider loving God, grievious- no! we love God
but some of his commadments like sabbath is for some people burdensome so God is saying his commandments
are not grievious
If your father gave you a car- does he have to tell you, Twinky drive it- before you will drive it
No! of course not- it is understood- you will thank you- take the keys and drive it
Jesus clearly said- "the sabbath was made man"
Why would God go to all the trouble of creating the sabbath for man if it is unnecessary
It is for man to keep the sabbath and enjoy the sabbath as God intented it - freedom from the world, devoted to God
a special day that He has commanded for our own benefit
Does verse 40 say- just do the 2 greatest commandments and forget about the rest????. - I dont think so-
that's not wwhat verse 40 is saying- it's saying that all the laws and commandments hang on the foundation which is love God with all your heart
and love your neighbour.
I think you have it a little upside down, Waxit. For one thing, things don't "hang" on a foundation.
But if you substitute "depend" for "hang" as some versions do, then yes, all things depend on these two laws for their foundation.
Strong's translates this as "All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
You do realise, don't you, that when laws are passed, the statutory law is usually not the be-all and end-all of it? There are many subsidiary regulations (in Commonwealth countries called Statutory Instruments (SIs), possibly different in other jurisdictions) But the SI regulations must adhere to the sense of the law itself. It's my view that all the Big Ten commandments, and all the following commandments, are just like that: Statutory Instruments, further defining what is meant by the foundational law(s) but not overriding them.
The foundation is just that: the foundation. The most important part. The building atop the foundation can be cleared away entirely, it's just overlay. But the foundation remains and can be built upon afresh.
The most important part of the foundation is the Cornerstone. Try checking out what a cornerstone is, architecturally. Here's a start:
Quote
In relation to architecture, a cornerstone is traditionally the first stone laid for a structure, with all other stones laid in reference. A cornerstone marks the geographical location by orienting a building in a specific direction.
Do you need even one "guess" at who (not what) the cornerstone is of the church? Who orients his church in a specific direction? And whose apostles and prophets also form part of the foundation? Here's a little clue, from Eph 2:20:
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
The apostles and prophets observed the sabbath, as did Jesus himself, in pre-crucifixion times. I'm not sure it would be true to say that they observed the sabbath in the same way afterwards; can you say that? The ones who remained in Jerusalem got rather legalistic (it's so easy to do that, isn't it? = do the actions without refining the heart and intent); maybe they continued to be sabbath-on-Saturday (as you say) observant; but all the apostles, helpers, converts, who helped spread the early message didn't seem to be sabbath-y on Saturday. They just met together regularly.
The apostles and prophets observed the sabbath, as did Jesus himself, in pre-crucifixion times. I'm not sure it would be true to say that they observed the sabbath in the same way afterwards; can you say that?
I feel that we are not getting anywhere twinky- if you want to find reasons why sabbath is insignificant, you will find them
and we will be debating on this till the cows come home. I have done all i can but it seems some of the things I have said
just goes over your head. If i say this, you will say that, if i say that, you will say some thing else- it continues
without examining the point i am making and researching- it like's the ostrich that buried it's head in the sand- I dont see it
(no offence- but it's not getti ng through to you)
As i said earlier in light of bible verses in Exodus 20:8-11 and 1 John 3:4 and Matt 7:22, you will have to look
on why sabbath is important and significant not the other way around- which is what you are doing
where you constantly look for ways to argue your way out of the sabbath. If that's the way you want it, then go ahead, believe it
you seem to belittle the 4th commandment- by saying the two greatest commandments are love your God and love your neighbour
I am showing you that God is saying in 1 John 5:3 what the love of God is- i.e we keep His commandments (I dont how many times i have higlighted this for your attention)
it doesnt seem to be having any effect at all)
instead of focussing on this 1 John 5:3 to see why sabbath is significantly important, you start debating about architecture and statutory law
I am not as good as you Twinky in finding out "legal loopholes- but the day will come when in front of Jesus where you will not have any loopholes
Try arguing with Jesus like all the other christians who thought sabbath was insignificant
Matt 7:22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness)
What is inquity? Iniquity is sin and What is sin? Good question - see verse below
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the trangression of the law(includes the 7th day sabbath)
I may not be able to debate on you statutory law and what not but did you know Jesus Christ- the cornerstone is also called
"The Lord of the sabbath" Shouldnt that indicate to the importance of the Lord of the Sabbath
You completely ignored and side stepped again my comment on what Jesus said, "Sabbath was made for man"
Why would God create the sabbath for man if it was going to be unimportant and insignificant"
Just because the 2 greatest comandments are love God with all your heart and love your neighbour but does that necessarily mean
that you can ignore the sabbath (4th commndment of God). How about stealing- thoult shalt not steal, why dont you count that as insignificant
post crucifixion as well?
So according to your argument that sabbath is a minor or "insignificant law" dependent on Loving God with all your heart
Does that mean that sabbath has become insignificant????
No! You keep the sabbath because you love God. Keepingthe sabbath including the rest of the 9 commandments wih honesty and love
is proof that you love and honour God (1 John 5:3).
You asked for proof that the apostles and Jesus disciples place the same importance on sabbath post crucificion
Well! try and argue your way around this one where it clearly shows the disciples placing the same importance in observing the sabbath.
I wouldnt be surprised if you did a side step on this one
Mark 15
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, ( notice sabbath was approaching
and in honouring sabbath-- a rest day they wanted to take down his body for burial
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.( so they could be back as soon as sabbath was over)
Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome,
had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. (The disciples of Jesus Christ delayed the embalming of their precious Lord Jesus Christ with sweet spices just because they wanted to honour the 7th day sabbath commandment How about that- does that not tell you the importance of sabbath keeping commandment post crucifixion)
Could you please answer these questions below so I can see that you are not being evasive
pay special attention to words in bold
Question 1:
Tell me something, why do you continually against 7th day sabbath keeping when the above verses show the importance of sabbath keeping
and you have no biblical proof of the sabbath's insignificance. I have already explained your land sabbath contention
and "within your towns/cities" argument of Ex 20:10
If you are going to argue against the 7th day sabbath commandment in the 10 commandments
Do you mean to say, it is also not insignificant and unimportant if we continue to lie, steal and covet neighbours goods Why single out only the sabbath commandment as being unimportant post crucificixion?
5 hours ago, Waxit said:
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (includes 7th day sabbath): and his commandments are not grievous
I have done all i can but it seems ome of the things I have said
just goes over your head. If i say this, you will say this, if i say this, you will say that.
Yep. Everything I, and others on this thread, goes right over your head. We don't live in OT times, Waxit. We have a little more freedom than that.
7 minutes ago, Waxit said:
I am not as good as you Twinky in finding out "legal loopholes
I am not "finding legal loopholes" (which you seem to think is wrong) - I am explaining how law works.
9 minutes ago, Waxit said:
did you know Jesus Christ- the cornerstone is also called
"The Lord of the sabbath" Shouldnt that indicate to the importance of the Lord of the Sabbath
You completely ignored and side stepped again my comment on what Jesus said, "Sabbath was made for man"
Why would God create the sabbath for man if it was going to be unimportant and insignificant"
I am jolly sure that God intended man to take regular rest from his normal labours. Absolutely! And I have always made it clear to you (should you choose to look) that I do exactly that. I set out in detail how I enjoy my "sabbath rest" and use it to glorify God. I love doing that.
Where I absolutely do not agree with you, Waxit, is that it is a special day (that you see as Saturday) and only that day, that must be utilised for the sabbath rest. I do not think it is possible to say that any "original" sabbath day was on any particular day of the week. In fact, I'd say the task is absolutely impossible.
And furthermore, I don't believe that God would be one jot upset if anyone (at all) chose to enjoy their day of rest, their sabbath, on some other day of the week, because of whatever commitments that person might have. If you think that, you know a different God from the one I do. Mine is loving, caring, graceful, compassionate, peaceful, forgiving and a lot of other wonderful things besides. My God is not vindictive and will throw me away forever if I happen to celebrate a day of loving him - on the wrong day of the week. Think about that.
And furthermore, I don't believe that God would be one jot upset if anyone (at all) chose to enjoy their day of rest, their sabbath, on some other day of the week, because of whatever commitments that person might have. If you think that, you know a different God from the one I do. Mine is loving, caring, graceful, compassionate, peaceful, forgiving and a lot of other wonderful things besides. My God is not vindictive and will throw me away forever if I happen to celebrate a day of loving him - on the wrong day of the week. Think about that.
WOW, it sounds like Twinky has a brain and is even using her brain. Very good!
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Rocky
Right. No need to apologize (to me anyway). No I don't presume to know what God thinks. That includes what he thinks about all the people who don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday but do instead on Sunday.
I understand that there's a lot of paradox in Christian scriptures and that it is presumptuous of us to judge based on our limited understanding of the complexities of those paradoxes.
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Waxit
God still loves you no matter - He even tells us to love our enemies (You are not an enemy to me-please don't take it the wrong way)
but God is also a God of Justice
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Waxit
I am not judging them. i am just saying they dont keep the biblical sabbath that's all
Edited by WaxitIf the God of the bible says turn up on saturday, if you are going to honour him, will you turn up
on sunday? So they are pefrectly entitled to keep their sunday sabbath but it's not what the
God of the bible wanted- right heart but wrong day appointment was made
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Waxit
I am looking in bible hub now
It looks like most versions are saying; it's gates rather than towns- These are just the first few versions
that came up - whether it's towns or gates- it's important to get it translated of what it means in original greek- The greek language is pretty accurate while the english translators sometimes
just monkey around and that's why we cannot tell the difference until we check in the greek interlinear or lexicon etc
New International Version
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.
King James Bible
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Darby Bible Translation
but the seventh day is the sabbath of Jehovah thy God: thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy bondman, nor thy handmaid, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
World English Bible
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates;
Young's Literal Translation
and the seventh day is a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, --
I wouldnt be surprised if the word "towns" might be translated into gates in the original greek
It would be really difficult to enforce the sawbbath in a place where you dont have a control as in an individual household.
However sabbath in those days in the israeli township is if i am not mistaken a religious and civil law much like friday mosque prayers
are for the islamic middle east. So if that's the case- yes 7th day sabbath keeping can be a rule of law
When i go to strongs lexicon- this is what i get?
within
אֲשֶׁ֥֣ר (’ă·šer)
Pronoun - relative
Strong's Hebrew 834: 1) (relative part.) 1a) which, who 1b) that which 2) (conj) 2a) that (in obj clause) 2b) when 2c) since 2d) as 2e) conditional if
your gates.
בִּשְׁעָרֶֽ֔יךָ (biš·‘ā·re·ḵā)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine plural construct | second person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 8179: 1) gate 1a) gate (of entrance) 1b) gate (of space inside gate, i.e. marketplace, public meeting place) 1b1) city, town 1c) gate (of palace, royal castle, temple, court of tabernacle) 1d) heaven
To me within your gates- i.e space inside, implies somehting that is within your control
God would never expect you to command sabbath keeping over an area that you do not have control of.
only within your gates where you have control
I will get back to you on the land sabbath- that's a tricky one
Regards
Waxit
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waysider
Looking back on my Way days, I have to cringe at how we did "word studies", looking at words in the text and translating them into English. We were like first graders trying to explain how nuclear energy works.
I'm currently a casual learner of Korean. The whole process has opened my eyes immensely. It's only been 75 years since the Korean War, but the differences between the language spoken in the north and the language spoken in the south are mind boggling. Yes, it's the same language, people from the north can understand people from the south and vice versa, however, there are wide divergences that have taken place in a remarkably short period of time. So much so that people defecting from the north take special language classes just to get up to speed with the changes. Cultural changes, in particular, are a major driving factor in how any language evolves. Take, for example, a simple word like "you". That would seem easy enough. How many variations could there possibly be? Well, there are probably 8 or 10 variations (that I'm aware of) and they each have a context that dictates whether the correct one is being used. A large part of that context involves the situation, the person being addressed, the essence of the message and a whole lot of other things. That's just one little word and you had better get it right if you don't want your intentions to be completely misunderstood. Now, expand that process over thousands of years and it becomes a little clearer how self delusional we were in our understanding of some of these matters. This is why, when it comes to understanding scripture, it benefits us to give due consideration to scholars who have spent entire careers delving into the intricacies of translation. That doesn't mean you should stop trying. It just means you need to recognize you are on a path of learning that goes on forever.
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Waxit
Look vpw- had a vey cunning way of getting people to believe him by hiding behind the word of God in a deceitful way
I dont do that
so dont compare me with vpw- he talks about integrity but himself is full of bs
wwhat vpw says go here and see for yourself but when it comes to stuff that he doesnt want people to know or ignorant of
for instance sabbath- he just takes it at face value or out of context- for instance one man esteemeth one day above another
but when he wants someone to change their opinion on a generally accepted principle- he goes into detail - like reading it in context
and all that- he's a very sly sewer rat
I know that the calendar didnt exist in day #1 from the beginning of creation
when the calendar system started with the earliest babylonian civilization- they simply adopted what God had set up
day 1 to day 7 - it just continued that way.
I suggest you google and do research on it- i am not the authority on calendars
the days were given names and the months wwere given names once the roman calendar system started after the
babylonian calendar systen- this is mu understanding
the romans started giving names so day 1- came o be called sunday- day of the sun in the english version- the day the pagans nominated as the day for sunworship day 7 the sabbath day commanded by God came to be called saturday in the english version- agian this is my understanding
Edited by WaxitIf you are going to be rude with me again- i will simply ignore your posts ok- i am trying to be helpful and patient as i can-
i cannot assume that people will know everything- if you look at how i worded the sentence "you know about the book of daniel right? I dont mean to put you down
I am just confirming that you know the book of daniel right and you are aware of the fact that he enquired with God right and for you to consider the fact that christians who have the indwelling Holy Spirit can talk to God
If you are going to pick a fight with me for every little thing - then i will just say goodbye
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waysider
Nothing in this explains why day #1 had to have been what we now call Sunday. Who knows? Maybe it was what we call a Tuesday or a Thursday. We can't draw any definite conclusion from what is written. The pagan calendar hypothesis is nothing more than a historic retrofit.
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Rocky
How do you know what's going on in their hearts?
It seems that for what you do to be what you think it is, you'd have to start with an error-free version/translation of the Bible.
How can you be sure you have that?
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Twinky
Waxit: I said NO QUOTES.
Pay attention. I think you may find the old translators have a MUCH wider grasp of ancient languages than you, even with the best concordance that's available to you. They spent years, decades, studying ancient languages and customs and the history of the region and the idioms and nuances, perhaps nuances across regions, of those ancient languages. Well. These are the type of scholarly individuals who prepared the concordances; of course they know better than the average joe.
How thoroughly do you know - say - the language of the country where you now live? And the development of that language over - let's keep it short - 500 years?
What about your knowledge of the development of the English language, and its nuances, idioms and variations over different regions of a country (say, just England) (Sottish, Welsh and Irish versions of English are different again) over the last - say - 1000 years? Do you know, for example, that people in the north of England use a significant number of words that are unknown in the southwest, and vice versa? How many different meanings do you know to the not uncommon word "mash"? That has meanings that many people would know, but also has some local variant meanings that are unknown elsewhere.
Here's a really simple question: in 20th and 21st century (=now), what does one mean by "the city" in England?
Does it mean the same if you say, "city"? or the "city"?
Now go back to the development of these languages, that you are familiar with, and think about how much you know of them 3000 years ago. Because right now you're laying your 21st century ideas on top of what you read. And you must clear your head of 21st century ideas and stick your head into 3000 years ago to understand well enough. Can you honestly say that you can do that?
If you can't do that with something that you are familiar with, why do you think you can know more than scholars who have spent lifetimes and developed huge expertise and worked with other scholars of huge expertise, refining ideas knowledge and understanding - that they then graciously share with those of us of lesser intellect and expertise.
I think you may find that "gates" refers to the gates of the city (try reading, say, Nehemiah, where the walls and gates of the city were repaired). And the control over the gates and the city enclosed by the walls and the gates rested with the public authorities, which in ancient Israel were the religious authorities.
Gates as in gates to an individual garden probably weren't common. Likely the houses were straight onto the street, most unlikely into a front or back garden of a house such as in modern day. Gates might well be only for compounds for animals to be kept safe at night, in warmer months when animals were in fields (and not in the winter months when animals were usually in the same dwelling with their owners).
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Twinky
Waxit, I recommended BibleHub to you (it sounds as though it's new to you?) not so that you could find another way to go picking and choosing, but to help improve your deeper study and scholastic ability.
Please tell me you're not using this to get nitpicky and evasive when asked questions. (You may quote this paragraph should you choose to reply to this comment.) (= 15 words plus 13 in parentheses.)
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Waxit
I am answering your questions Twinky- I am not nit picking- I am answering your quesions- after i have answered your questions
remember it's your turn to answer my questions- to be fair
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Waxit
Actually you will have to prove why sabbath is insigficant in light of what God is clearly saying in the bible
Just to set the record straight in regards to your comment above - you are right there are many verses that "appear" to present something different.
The operative word being "appear" but every one of them has been proven to be either out of context/ not atually related to sabbath keeping
or translation error when compared to the original greek.
In light of the clear commandments from God (The ultimate authority)in Exodus 20:8-11, you should look for reasons why 7th day sabbath is important
God clearly says in:
1John 2::3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.(includes 7th day sabbath keeping)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments (includes 7th day sabbath keeping) ,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I dont think you will be able to answer the above scriptures if you keep sunday (man made traditions)
God's 4th commandment in the 10 commandments is very specific- the 7th day
God never commanded sunday keeping. There was a special day, he sancified and created for
mankind for man to devote time with Him (God) in rest, worship and fellowship and that is the 7th day sabbath (saturday-7th day of the week)
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Waxit
Let's see who is evasive
You have asked to explain Land sabbath- Iand how it's not practical to keep the land fallow and rested in the 7th year- I have explained it
you have asked to explain Exodus 20:10- how's it's impractical for someone to be responsible for sabbath keeping
in the whole "town"- (most versions say it's gate and the greek translation is "within the gates" - I have explained it
I have asked you to explain:
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments(includes 7th day sabbayh): and his commandments are not grievous.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
I have asked you to explain:
John 14:
21 He that hath my commandments,(includes 7th day sabbayh) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
You have not explained it (So who is being evasive???)
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Waxit
my friend - the words in red refers to pagan religious feasts not christian at all
when i said "religious activity" i meant pagan religious activity- nothing to do with sabbath- pagans at that time had nothing to with sabbath
context is christian converts who were former pagans- the issue was about food
One last shot go to this link https://rcg.org/questions/p085.a.html and give it some thought:
I don't belong to this church but I do believe they give a good explanation of the context
"One man esteemeth one day" has got nothing to with sabbath or pagan holidays- it has got to do with
the pagan practise of eating particular food on certain days- whether vegetarian or meat
If you still cannot see what I am saying and what is being said and come to the conclusion: that it is referring to sabbth
so be it- believe what you want to believe
Let's just be friends- let's not go on about sabbath anymore- as i told you- no one can convince you of sabbath
Edited by Waxit7th day sabbath keeping is a spiritual decision and can only come from spiritual discernment>
Let's just stop here- I am pretty sure that even if you went to the link above- it will make no difference and you will still
maintain that Paul was talking about the sabbath. |
You are welcome to belive want you want to believe, just dont talk to me on the 7th day sabbath keeping cmmandment any more
Sayonara- if you have any "puny" jokes by all means.
I am pretty sure I will be winding down on gsc bible discussions
Regards
Waxit
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T-Bone
Why do you feel it’s necessary to insert “(includes 7th day sabbayh)” in certain verses?
How would you feel if someone inserted “(includes 7th day sabbayh)” in other verses like:
“because by the works of the Law ( includes 7th day sabbayh) no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) comes the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20
“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law ( includes 7th day sabbayh ) but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) ; since by the works of the Law (includes 7th day sabbayh) no flesh will be justified.” Galatians 2:16
== == ==
Ok – I now understand that’s what you meant – but you’re still wrong.
First off, it is obvious from the context (and I’ve re-posted Rom. 14:1-6 further below) Paul is addressing two categories of Christians – ones who are weak in the faith and ones who are more confident in their convictions of the faith.
And second, Paul is NOT just talking about food – since he also mentions the word “day”.
Furthermore, why would Paul be talking about pagan religious activity and then actually condone the activity? That makes no sense!
What if I insert “(includes pagan religious activity)” in Romans 14 to read something like this – “One person regards one day (includes pagan religious activity) above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day (includes pagan religious activity) , observes it for the Lord”…
== == == == ==
== == == == ==
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....Romans 14: 1-6 NASB
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Twinky
Waxit, you said:
Following the examples you yourself think appropriate, I could say: WHERE exactly does it say that Jesus COMMANDED us to keep the Sabbath? He says, Keep MY (my, my, my) commandments.
And Jesus's biggest commandments (if you like) are these:
FIRSTLY
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a]
SECONDLY
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
Note: ONLY TWO commandments. And I can't see any mention of any kind of special days, sabbath or otherwise.
And Jesus himself says: There is no commandment greater than these.
Note that it DOES NOT SAY:
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and you must keep the sabbath.
In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence. Even you have to agree that ... don't you?
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Twinky
Waxit sent me a reply to a question I asked him earlier, but which for some unknown reason he was unable to post here. I have his permission to quote his email to me. I am not endorsing his views and leave it to others to have their say on what Waxit says:
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Mark Sanguinetti
Waxit wants to add the word Sabbath to scriptures. The only way he is going to be able to add enough of the word Sabbath to scriptures to match his mindset, especially in the New Testament and the writings of the apostle Paul to the Gentiles, is to come up with his own new bible version. At least Waxit partially saw his error of 84 usages of the word Sabbath in the book of Acts. Because I have very good biblical study software and I even passed 3rd and 4th grade math, I was able to count 9 usages of the word Sabbath in the book of Acts for both the New International Version and the King James Version instead of 84. You people can double check to see if I can count while perhaps still being able to at least pass third grade math. However, perhaps I am cheating now with the help of my biblical study software. Perhaps I should have kept that secret.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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waysider
Jesus wept...on the sabbath.
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Waxit
Why dont you keep going and read further - the next verse
Matt 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Does verse 40 say- just do the 2 greatest commandments and forget about the rest????. - I dont think so-
that's not wwhat verse 40 is saying- it's saying that all the laws and commandments hang on the foundation which is love God with all your heart
and love your neighbour. Come on- if went to live in a house- would you lop off the house from the foundation upwwards- no roof nothing -just only the foundation is there- sleep on the floor under open skies
Of course- you need the whole house- and Jesus gives the whole picrture in vs 40 - On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Let me show howin what ways God is clewarly indicating a christian keeps the sabbth
and also now that we have got the whole picture Twinky - let's delve what God says proves that you love God biblically
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (includes 7th day sabbath): and his commandments are not grievous
He is even telling us further His commandments are grievious- would you consider loving God, grievious- no! we love God
but some of his commadments like sabbath is for some people burdensome so God is saying his commandments
are not grievious
If your father gave you a car- does he have to tell you, Twinky drive it- before you will drive it
No! of course not- it is understood- you will thank you- take the keys and drive it
Jesus clearly said- "the sabbath was made man"
Why would God go to all the trouble of creating the sabbath for man if it is unnecessary
It is for man to keep the sabbath and enjoy the sabbath as God intented it - freedom from the world, devoted to God
a special day that He has commanded for our own benefit
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
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Twinky
I think you have it a little upside down, Waxit. For one thing, things don't "hang" on a foundation.
But if you substitute "depend" for "hang" as some versions do, then yes, all things depend on these two laws for their foundation.
Strong's translates this as "All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
You do realise, don't you, that when laws are passed, the statutory law is usually not the be-all and end-all of it? There are many subsidiary regulations (in Commonwealth countries called Statutory Instruments (SIs), possibly different in other jurisdictions) But the SI regulations must adhere to the sense of the law itself. It's my view that all the Big Ten commandments, and all the following commandments, are just like that: Statutory Instruments, further defining what is meant by the foundational law(s) but not overriding them.
The foundation is just that: the foundation. The most important part. The building atop the foundation can be cleared away entirely, it's just overlay. But the foundation remains and can be built upon afresh.
The most important part of the foundation is the Cornerstone. Try checking out what a cornerstone is, architecturally. Here's a start:
https://www.newstudioarchitecture.com/newstudio-blog/architectural-cornerstones
Do you need even one "guess" at who (not what) the cornerstone is of the church? Who orients his church in a specific direction? And whose apostles and prophets also form part of the foundation? Here's a little clue, from Eph 2:20:
The apostles and prophets observed the sabbath, as did Jesus himself, in pre-crucifixion times. I'm not sure it would be true to say that they observed the sabbath in the same way afterwards; can you say that? The ones who remained in Jerusalem got rather legalistic (it's so easy to do that, isn't it? = do the actions without refining the heart and intent); maybe they continued to be sabbath-on-Saturday (as you say) observant; but all the apostles, helpers, converts, who helped spread the early message didn't seem to be sabbath-y on Saturday. They just met together regularly.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
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Waxit
I feel that we are not getting anywhere twinky- if you want to find reasons why sabbath is insignificant, you will find them
and we will be debating on this till the cows come home. I have done all i can but it seems some of the things I have said
just goes over your head. If i say this, you will say that, if i say that, you will say some thing else- it continues
without examining the point i am making and researching- it like's the ostrich that buried it's head in the sand- I dont see it
(no offence- but it's not getti ng through to you)
As i said earlier in light of bible verses in Exodus 20:8-11 and 1 John 3:4 and Matt 7:22, you will have to look
on why sabbath is important and significant not the other way around- which is what you are doing
where you constantly look for ways to argue your way out of the sabbath. If that's the way you want it, then go ahead, believe it
you seem to belittle the 4th commandment- by saying the two greatest commandments are love your God and love your neighbour
I am showing you that God is saying in 1 John 5:3 what the love of God is- i.e we keep His commandments (I dont how many times i have higlighted this for your attention)
it doesnt seem to be having any effect at all)
instead of focussing on this 1 John 5:3 to see why sabbath is significantly important, you start debating about architecture and statutory law
I am not as good as you Twinky in finding out "legal loopholes- but the day will come when in front of Jesus where you will not have any loopholes
Try arguing with Jesus like all the other christians who thought sabbath was insignificant
Matt 7:22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness)
What is inquity? Iniquity is sin and What is sin? Good question - see verse below
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the trangression of the law
I may not be able to debate on you statutory law and what not but did you know Jesus Christ- the cornerstone is also called
"The Lord of the sabbath" Shouldnt that indicate to the importance of the Lord of the Sabbath
You completely ignored and side stepped again my comment on what Jesus said, "Sabbath was made for man"
Why would God create the sabbath for man if it was going to be unimportant and insignificant"
Just because the 2 greatest comandments are love God with all your heart and love your neighbour but does that necessarily mean
that you can ignore the sabbath (4th commndment of God). How about stealing- thoult shalt not steal, why dont you count that as insignificant
post crucifixion as well?
So according to your argument that sabbath is a minor or "insignificant law" dependent on Loving God with all your heart
Does that mean that sabbath has become insignificant????
No! You keep the sabbath because you love God. Keepingthe sabbath including the rest of the 9 commandments wih honesty and love
is proof that you love and honour God (1 John 5:3).
You asked for proof that the apostles and Jesus disciples place the same importance on sabbath post crucificion
Well! try and argue your way around this one where it clearly shows the disciples placing the same importance in observing the sabbath.
I wouldnt be surprised if you did a side step on this one
Mark 15
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, ( notice sabbath was approaching
and in honouring sabbath-- a rest day they wanted to take down his body for burial
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.( so they could be back as soon as sabbath was over)
Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome,
had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. (The disciples of Jesus Christ delayed the embalming of their precious Lord Jesus Christ with sweet spices just because they wanted to honour the 7th day sabbath commandment How about that- does that not tell you the importance of sabbath keeping commandment post crucifixion)
Could you please answer these questions below so I can see that you are not being evasive
pay special attention to words in bold
Question 1:
Tell me something, why do you continually against 7th day sabbath keeping when the above verses show the importance of sabbath keeping
and you have no biblical proof of the sabbath's insignificance. I have already explained your land sabbath contention
and "within your towns/cities" argument of Ex 20:10
If you are going to argue against the 7th day sabbath commandment in the 10 commandments
Do you mean to say, it is also not insignificant and unimportant if we continue to lie, steal and covet neighbours goods
Why single out only the sabbath commandment as being unimportant post crucificixion?
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
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Twinky
Yep. Everything I, and others on this thread, goes right over your head. We don't live in OT times, Waxit. We have a little more freedom than that.
I am not "finding legal loopholes" (which you seem to think is wrong) - I am explaining how law works.
I am jolly sure that God intended man to take regular rest from his normal labours. Absolutely! And I have always made it clear to you (should you choose to look) that I do exactly that. I set out in detail how I enjoy my "sabbath rest" and use it to glorify God. I love doing that.
Where I absolutely do not agree with you, Waxit, is that it is a special day (that you see as Saturday) and only that day, that must be utilised for the sabbath rest. I do not think it is possible to say that any "original" sabbath day was on any particular day of the week. In fact, I'd say the task is absolutely impossible.
And furthermore, I don't believe that God would be one jot upset if anyone (at all) chose to enjoy their day of rest, their sabbath, on some other day of the week, because of whatever commitments that person might have. If you think that, you know a different God from the one I do. Mine is loving, caring, graceful, compassionate, peaceful, forgiving and a lot of other wonderful things besides. My God is not vindictive and will throw me away forever if I happen to celebrate a day of loving him - on the wrong day of the week. Think about that.
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Mark Sanguinetti
WOW, it sounds like Twinky has a brain and is even using her brain. Very good!
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