I don’t recall saying that…you might be conflating something you asked with a response I gave.
You used the word “insignificant” in your request
To which I responded by quoting Romans 14:5
I don't recall any exchange of gunfire with you over this verse - matter of fact I don't recall you ever responding at all to my post of this verse.
It doesn't matter- I was the one who started the "one man esteemeth one day above another"
Did you answer the question I asked at the end of my previous post? It's important that you answer the question and then afterwards
you can discuss and throw more bible bible verses that show "sabbath is not important" until i exhaust them for you and everyone else
Before you go there, I would like to summarise what you will find there.
You will see that:
(1) Romans 14:5 in context is definitely not talking about sabbath - This alone takes the sting out of the anti sabbath stance
In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing
as no hard and fast rule
(2) If you are correct and Paul was in fact referring to the sabbath days- We have a problem Houston
Paul if he was referring to sabbath days he would be contradicting himself in Romans 3:31and other numerous scriptures- the bible will fall apart
i would like to quote just 2 bible verses for now
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (incl 7th day sabbath)
(keep the law
Acts 13:42
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(why wait one one whole week-
these were gentile christians)
if 7th day sabbath was irrelevant)
(3) When i refer to laws and commanadments of God- it's always in reference to and includes the 7th day Sabbath keeping Commandment- 4th commandment
It doesn't matter- I was the one who started the "one man esteemeth one day above another" Did you answer the question I asked at the end of my previous post?
It's important that you answer the question
and then afterwards
you can discuss and throw more bible bible verses that show "sabbath is not important" until i exhaust them for you and everyone else
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but so far you have NOTexhausted (drain someone of their physical or mental resources; tire out) me and a few other posters who have stuck with this thread – nor does it seem to me that your participation has been exhaustive ( considering all elements or aspects; fully comprehensive) of this topic.
If you are referring to the question at the end of your previous post – quoted here
Quote
Do you believe that what the word of God says is more important than what we think? Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
I am pleased to inform you that I did respond to your question – quoting myself here
13 hours ago, T-Bone said:
I’m sorry but since we are both aware that you and I have opposing views on what the Word of God says about keeping the Sabbath – you’ll have to be much more specific in your question. Can you re-frame the question around a specific chapter or verse in the Bible?
The bible shows where we are spiritually.
From the following verses, it is clear the importance of commandent keeping (includes 7th day Sabbath)
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
How do you explain the above verses in light of your anti sabbath stance?
I beg to differ – “includes 7th day Sabbath” (which I put in bold red of your quote) - or even just the word "Sabbath" is NOT mentioned or even alluded to in I John 2: 3 & 4 - it seems to me you are trying to force your assumption into this discussion...So I refuse to dignify yourloaded questionwith a response - instead I will re-frame the question in a straight forward manner - what are his "commandments" mentioned in I John?
The word “commandments” is indeed intriguing – and should warrant the attention of Bible students. Let’s use Scripture to interpret Scripture – I believe clarification as to what “commandments” refers to may be gathered from the immediate context as well as the greater context…please allow me to quote more of this chapter, and of II John after which I will humbly offer an explanation.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes…I John 2: 3- 11 NASB
4 I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. 5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it…II John 4 – 6 NASB
== == == == == ==
In I John 2:7, when John says “I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard” he is probably using word play to reinforce the meaning of “commandment”. Though John does not say what the commandment is in I John, he does clearly state what it is in II John 5 & 6 (see above text quote) – it is the commandment to love…John saying the commandment was “old” may refer to the Old Testament commands to love in Leviticus 19:18 “…you shall love your neighbor as yourself…” and in Deuteronomy 6:5 “…You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…”. The command that we love one another seems to be consistent with directives given elsewhere in the New Testament (see Matt. 22: 39; John 13: 35; 15:12; Rom. 13:10; Gal. 5:13; Eph. 4: 2; I Thess. 4:9; Heb. 13:1; James 2:8; I Peter 1:22; 2:17; 4: 8; I John 3:16, 17, 23; 4: 11, 21).
Though I don’t see any directives or mandatory obligation to keep the Sabbath in the epistles of I John or II John – you are certainly free to think that there are.
The bible shows where we are spiritually.
From the following verses, it is clear the importance of commandent keeping (includes 7th day Sabbath)
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
How do you explain the above verses in light of your anti sabbath stance?
Does John ever mention Sabbath in this letter? Please read the actual text instead of trying to change the actual text with your mindset.
Quote
1 John Chapter 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched — this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
1 John Chapter 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. 12 I write to you, dear children,because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. 13 I write to you, fathers,because you have known him who is from the beginning.I write to you, young men,because you have overcome the evil one.I write to you, dear children,because you have known the Father. 14 I write to you, fathers,because you have known him who is from the beginning.I write to you, young men,because you are strong,and the word of God lives in you,and you have overcome the evil one.
15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world — the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does — comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us — even eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit — just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
NIV
In addition to the above text, the word Sabbath is listed 0 times in 1st John with five chapters. In contrast, the word love is listed 35 times in 1st John using the NIV version. I hope we can all at least pass one 3rd grade math test. What is a higher number that obviously shows more importance? The number 35 or the number 0? I am confident that T-Bone can pass third grade math and see that 35 is a higher number than 0. I also can see that and hopefully pass third grade math, while at least being able to pass one math test. Hopefully, Waxit can also pass third grade math, while also seeing that 35 is a higher number than 0. I am now cheering for Mark S., T-Bone, Waxit, Twinky and everyone on this forum to pass third grade math. Yea!!!!!
A little off topic, this, but seems reasonably relevant to where the discussion is currently. A version of this was in my Inbox this evg; I chose this one because the words are also shown:
Does John ever mention Sabbath in this letter? Please read the actual text instead of trying to change the actual text with your mindset.
In addition to the above text, the word Sabbath is listed 0 times in 1st John with five chapters. In contrast, the word love is listed 35 times in 1st John using the NIV version. I hope we can all at least pass one 3rd grade math test. What is a higher number that obviously shows more importance? The number 35 or the number 0? I am confident that T-Bone can pass third grade math and see that 35 is a higher number than 0. I also can see that and hopefully pass third grade math, while at least being able to pass one math test. Hopefully, Waxit can also pass third grade math, while also seeing that 35 is a higher number than 0. I am now cheering for Mark S., T-Bone, Waxit, Twinky and everyone on this forum to pass third grade math. Yea!!!!!
Hi Mark
I am sure you know what the word "commandment" means. Ok! just to make it crystal clear - please refer to the definition of commandment
This definition just popped up when i googled it -you can refer below
You say love has been mentioned 35 times but there has been no mention of the word sabbath in 1 John
Surely you must know that the word commandment which is mentioned 35 times already includes the 7th day sabbath
keeping commandment. So that's why the sabbath becomes significantly important as part of the commandmentsss (plural)
in 1 John 2:3-4
It is not necessarily true to say that you can judge the importance of a particular subject based on the times a related
word is directly quoted- in the case love and sabbath
If you use that kind of a logic then I can also say, "Adultery" has been mentioned "0" times in 1 John
So does that mean since the word"adultery" has not been mentioned in 1 John, it must not be important and insignificant. So like
vpw shameless sex in the mire, it shouldn't matter, as long as you love your female neighbour, it's ok if you committed adutery with her.
That doesn't make sense Does it? Exactly that's why love and commandment keeping are strongly inter linked
Put it this way and I hope you cn meditate on this till it is etched in your heart,
Loving God (which most christians) will profess = Keeping His commandments (Incl 7th day sabbath) 1 John 5:3
John doesnt have to mention every single commandment by word for you to understand that all the components
of God's commandments are included in the word "commandments" and important (includes 7thday sabbath)
So making something insignificant just because the word is not directly mentioned in a particular section of the bible is not a reliable
way to arrive at a conclusion.
Did you know that the word "God" is not mentioned, not once-zilch,nada "0" times in the book of Esther?
Does that make God insignificant???? God forbid
What if i told you that the word "sabbath" is mentioned in the book of Acts about 84 times- surely that should also tell you something, shouldn' t it?
Ok! Let's get on to the definition of commandment Commandment
a divine rule, especially one of the Ten Commandments.
"the Sabbath had to be kept as ordered in the Fourth Commandment"
a rule to be observed as strictly as one of the Ten Commandments."
You are a nice guy but you keep harping on the Love commandment- fair enough that the love commandment is the greatest commandment
but it is still just one commandment- what about the rest?
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandmentsss.(plural 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandmentsss(plural), is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Summary Firstly in regards to the above verses, the word "commandments" is a broad all encompassing word that includes all the commandments of God- i.e love commandment, 10 commandments (including 7th day sabbath) and all the rest
of God's commandments in the bible pertainaing to every area of lives. The greek translation says "directives". Directives here refers to God's directions. The commandments or laws of God are God's directions
7th day sabbath commandment is a major commandment (relationship commandment in the 10 commandments) that is largely
ignored week in week out worldwide by most christians.
Secondly, I am banging my head again and again that love of God is very strongly linked to commandmentkeeping (including
7th day sabbath) but it doesnt seem to be getting through on gsc. When will people understand that God wants both love and commandment keeping. I am so tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. It's like ground hogs day
And when i dont reply, people think i am ignoring them.
Mark, all of God's commandments are based on love and on the flip side, He is clearly telling us in no uncertain terms what love of God is 1 John 5:3King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (includes 7day sabbath): and his commandments are not grievous (not a burden- it's a blessing)
In all honesty, you cannot keep the commandments of God without loving God- It will be meaningless and confusing- you dont have to keep the commandments if you dont love god- your carnal nature will quickly figure that out and before long, you will fail
In the same way conversely if you love God (coming from a biblical perspective) you will humble yourself to keeping the
commandments of God
Are we to obey God or do we keep looking for a loophole which will match what we want and what we think God should be saying?
I mean who are we to argue against the Almighty, All Wise, All Powerful and thankfully Loving God?
We are but dust with a pea brain and to dust will we return. What gives us life is God? We must worship God in spirit and truth and reverently obey His commandments- The 7th day sabbath keeping law is not only a commandment - it's God's gift to man- a special time to rest from our labours and to rest in God spiritually devoted to Godly activities of worship, teaching,fellowship where the spirit of God brings healing and restoration.
It seems to me that people who are anti sabbath are looking hard to find an escape clause from the 7th day sabbath keeping law/commandment . Well there aint any
Jeremiah 18
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from theLord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of theLordcame to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel (people of God), cannot I do with you as this potter? saith theLord.
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Regards
Waxit
What if i told you that the word "sabbath" is mentioned in the book of Acts about 84 times- surely that should tell you something, shouldn' t it?
Perhaps you will need to edit your above comments to correct your math error. Either that or you would need to do the work to create your own biblical version, while adding the word Sabbath to your new version many times. However, every current version has MUCH less usages of the word Sabbath for the book of Acts. I hope it is OK to be factual here. In using biblical reference software, the New Testament has the Greek word "sabbasin" for the Sabbath day. This is Strong's number 4521. There are 68 usages of this Greek word in the New Testament . To help Waxit correct his error there are ten (10) usages of this Greek word for Sabbath in the book of Acts. WOW this is the same number as the original Old Testament law with ten commandments. Of these 68 New Testament usages. The first 8 usages of the Greek word for Sabbath in the New Testament are all in Matthew chapter 12. Please read this chapter as quoted below and see that this was the Pharisees accusing Jesus Christ of not following the law of the Sabbath day. Waxit, please do not act like a Pharisee here while accusing us of not following the Sabbath day.
Quote
Matthew 12:1-17
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
13 Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16 warning them not to tell who he was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
NIV
The final usage of this Greek word for Sabbath is Colossians 2:16. This final usage from Paul says that we should not let anyone judge us regarding whether or not we have a special Sabbath day of special worship. These are only a figurative and symbolic shadow of things found in Jesus Christ our savior.
Quote
Colossians 2:13-19
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
NIV
quoted below and see that this was the Pharisees accusing Jesus Christ of not following the law of the Sabbath day. Waxit, please do not act like a Pharisee here while accusing us of not following the Sabbath day.
You are getting all twisted Mark because you dont understand that the law of sabbath day that the pharisees
followed was their own strict man made interpretations (judaism not christianity). They have thousands of them and they are laborious and burdensome-
They even had strict ways of they should wash their hands and how if someone's house caught fire on the sabbath- they are not permitted to
take all their belongings (they considered that work) but they could take as much clothes as possible by wearing their clothes on them- to them that's not considered work
go figure- so for eg you would have to wear 3 of your suits-3 of your long pants- s shrts- wonder how you will wear 2 shoes?
So in this case the disciples were going through the fields and they were hungry so they pluck the ears of the corns which they are permitted to do
but the pharisees jump in and say-the disciples plucking the corn = harversting and threshing (judaism)- what a load of nonsense
So Mark, I am not the pharisee here- I am not saying you cannot pluck corn and eat on the sabbath day
so i think you saying I am a pharisee is not correct.
Jesus Christ rightly told them another scripture where David and his men were hungry and they the ate the shre bread which was on the altar
Notice the question or the issue brought up by the pharisees is not whether they were observing the sabbath but rather how it was being
observed. The pharisees wanted Jesus and his disciples to observe the sabbath according to their strict man made traditions (Judaism)
wherby the Lord pointed them to what David and his men did when they were hungry Matt 12:3-5
So Mark you can take the law of the sabbath day according to the pharisees (man made traditions of phaisees) have shove it down the toilet
You have gone off topic in branching out to "how the pharisees wanted the sabbath to be observed" .
If you kindly focus on the issue of observing the 7th day sabbath according to God's commandment (Jesus Christ was never accused by the pharisees of not keeping the 7th day sabbath) Do not focus on what the pharisee idiots wanted - focus on whether you are keeping the 7th day sabbath commandment of God
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not about a bunch of legalistic rules to be observed
If that is all that you can think of after i have given you clear explanation on the strong link
between The love of God and the 7th day sabbath then i feel sorry for you that you are not grasping what sabbah keeping is
In regards to the sabbath being quoted 84 times in the book of acts. Hmmm! I thought that I did see this sometime ago
If I am wrong- I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying that
Here are some interesting reading on the issue of 7th day sabbath keeping
for you
Sabbath in the book of Acts
The pharisees accusing Jesus of not following the law of the sabbath day does not equal to me saying 7th day sabbath commanded by God (Ex 20:8-11)
(Nonsense -I dont agree with this rubbish- Go find a pharisee in your neighbourhood (God's laws and commandment)
and have a chow down with him- I dont give a hoot about what the pharisees did
I dont like their legalistic rules and I certainly will not practise them- they are ridiculous-if you ask me
and never commanded by God.
You have gone off topic from love of God and commandment keeping whch we were discussing to the nonsense of the pharisees of man made traditions
which we are all aware off- I dont know why you tried this cheap shot on me. There are more relevant and significant things to discuss Mark if you
are truly interested in findding about why it's so impoartant to keep the 7th day Sabbath.
If you are not interested in finding about more and want a better understanding of the very concerning scriptures i have highlighted
for people ignoring the sabbath, please let me know- so I dont have to waste my time with you
In regards to the sabbath being quoted 84 times in the book of acts. Hmmm! I thought that I did see this sometime ago
If I am wrong- I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying that
At least Waxit is trying to see one of his mistakes. Regarding the Pharisees and their promotion of the Sabbath day. with the first eight usages of the Greek word for Sabbath from Mathew chapter 12 telling of this. Waxit is certainly not as bad as the Pharisees of the first century with their hatred while wanting to murder Jesus Christ and other followers of God and Jesus Christ his Son. I hope Waxit at least sees that murder is a worse offense than not following the Sabbath day.
Quote
Waxit also said
Do not focus on what the pharisee idiots wanted - focus on whether you are keeping the 7th day sabbath commandment of God
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not about a bunch of legalistic rules to be observed
If that is all that you can think of after i have given you clear explanation on the strong link
between The love of God and the 7th day sabbath then i feel sorry for you that you are not grasping what sabbah keeping is
With Paul in all of his writings only mentioning the word Sabbath two times, while not seeing it in a positive way like Waxit sees Sabbath. Should Waxit also feel sorry for Paul and think he knows more about at least the day of Sabbath than the apostle Paul? I previously quoted from Colossians 2:16 and surrounding verses that has the Greek word Sabbath. This shows that people that accuse others of not following Sabbath as a special day should be ignored. Here is the only other usage of the Greek word for Sabbath as written by Paul. Many biblical versions translate this as "of the week" (KJV) , "of every week" (NASB)and (NIV)
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1 Corinthians 16:1-9
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come. 3 And when I arrive, whomever you may approve, I shall send them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem; 4 and if it is fitting for me to go also, they will go with me. 5 But I shall come to you after I go through Macedonia, for I am going through Macedonia; 6 and perhaps I shall stay with you, or even spend the winter, that you may send me on my way wherever I may go. 7 For I do not wish to see you now just in passing; for I hope to remain with you for some time, if the Lord permits. 8 But I shall remain in Ephesus until Pentecost; 9 for a wide door for effective service has opened to me, and there are many adversaries.
NASB
Quote
1 Corinthians 16:1-4
16 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me.
NIV
The context of this day is giving money to poor people that need it so that Paul does not have to collect it. And it says do this on the first day and not the last day of the week, with the last day of the week being the day of Sabbath. Does this show the importance of the day of Sabbath to the apostle Paul?
Secondly, I am banging my head again and again that love of God is very strongly linked to commandmentkeeping (including
7th day sabbath) but it doesnt seem to be getting through on gsc. When will people understand that God wants both love and commandment keeping. I am so tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. It's like ground hogs day
And when i dont reply, people think i am ignoring them.
You're tired of repeating the same thing over and over again? How do you think God feels about the situation?
(SNIP)...
Before you go there, I would like to summarise what you will find there.
You will see that:
(1) Romans 14:5 in context is definitely not talking about sabbath - This alone takes the sting out of the anti sabbath stance
In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing
as no hard and fast rule
(2) If you are correct and Paul was in fact referring to the sabbath days- We have a problem Houston
Paul if he was referring to sabbath days he would be contradicting himself in Romans 3:31and other numerous scriptures- the bible will fall apart
...(SNIP)
I disagree with you - it appears to me that Paul is using a rather broad general term in the context referring to days appointed to be observed by the Jewish law – Paul does NOT exclude the Sabbath. Rather in a brief but comprehensive manner Paul is talking about regarding a certain day above another – it could be a feast day – days of unleavened bread, the Passover, feast of tabernacles, etc., or even the Sabbath…You are contradicting yourself saying Paul was not talking about the sabbath when in fact you said he did - you said: “In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing” – yes, you’re absolutely right - they did have religious activities on certain days - such as the Sabbath set aside as a day of worship – a religious activity.
In Romans 3 Paul is starting to develop the theme of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Does that mean everything Judaism stood for is wiped out? Not at all – Paul says in Rom. 3:31 that faith actually confirms the purpose of the law. As I stated in a previous post – the law was a means to provide payment for when people sinned, to show mankind’s inability to obey God’s righteous demands and to point to Christ as the Savior...Romans 4 talks about Abraham being justified by faith - not by works.
I don’t see a contradiction with what Paul said in Romans 3 with what he said in Romans 14. Because in Rom.14 Paul addresses the latitude we have regarding the observance or non-observance of certain days. Perhaps if you ease up on the Sabbath bias (inserting Sabbath-keeping parenthetically in your mind - and in your post ) you might see that Romans 3 and Romans 14 do not oppose each other. Paul introduces saving faith in Romans 3. By the time he gets to Romans 14 Paul is detailing some practical aspects of faith. (Selections from Romans 3, 4 & 14 are given below).
As to dogma-scare-tactics like “if there’s contradictions the Bible will fall apart” – that is really just a false dilemma - As Wikipedia says “The false dilemma fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception.” - ...Sometimes we may think we're stuck in an either/or situation when in fact there may be several more options available.
When it comes right down to it – the Bible is what it is. Ever hear that expression before? What does it mean? It indicates the immutable nature of the Bible - meaning whatever was written down in those ancient texts is not going to change - what's done is done.... Yes, there are a lot of translations and versions out there which reflect various translation philosophies (form-driven, meaning-driven, etc.) – but if translators are worth their salt their rendering of the ancient texts usually convey the same basic ideas of God, Jesus Christ, sin, redemption, prayer, brotherly love and so forth. An interesting book about the trustworthiness of these ancient texts is The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable by FF Bruce ...I think a more apt phrase might be “if there’s contradictions in a theology – one's religion might fall apart.” For the aim of systematic theology is to arrange religious truths in a self-consistent whole. ( see systematic theology for more info)
== == ==
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those ]who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law…Rom. 3:21-31 NASB
== == == ==
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...Romans 4: 1-16 NASB
== == ==
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....Romans 14: 1-6 NASB
The one I have asked you at least four times. And others have asked you also.
You can either: admit you don't bother to read threads in sufficient detail, and therefore request me to post the question again; or
You can read the entire thread, find the question, and answer it.
On 5/22/2020 at 1:29 AM, Twinky said:
The one I have asked you at least four times. And others have asked you also.
You can either: admit you don't bother to read threads in sufficient detail, and therefore request me to post the question again; or
You can read the entire thread, find the question, and answer it.
On 5/22/2020 at 1:29 AM, Twinky said:
The one I have asked you at least four times. And others have asked you also.
You can either: admit you don't bother to read threads in sufficient detail, and therefore request me to post the question again; or
You can read the entire thread, find the question, and answer it.
On 5/22/2020 at 1:29 AM, Twinky said:
The one I have asked you at least four times. And others have asked you also.
You can either: admit you don't bother to read threads in sufficient detail, and therefore request me to post the question again; or
You can read the entire thread, find the question, and answer it.
Hi Twinky
You are not the only person I am answering to - and I dont have the time to find the thread-since there have been a number of posts between us
Look- your posts are not as long and detailed as mine as mine so i do read it entirely- I think you are very presumptious when you say I dont read it in sufficient detail. And sorry No! I cannot admit to something that I am not guilty of
In fact I think it's the other way around - you are not answering the question / explanation that i am asking you and
the reason I know this, is because you dont bother to ask me questions based on the scripture that I am pointing you
which means you are ignoring what the word of God is saying or you have not read it in sufficient detail to ask me a question
based on the very same scripture that i have brought to your attention.
Instead what you do is, you simply turn around and point to another scripture
One instance where i remember answering your question is when you said the actual sabbath day has been lost through history because of calendar changes.
I distinctly remember giving you a clear explanation how in spite of calendar changes the 7th day sabbath has always
remained the same i.e saturday
You are welcomed to answer me a question anytime - I will answer it directly without going elsewhere or giving another question
I get the impression that you avoid answering my question because you are afraid to know that 7th day sabbath commandment is a valid
and binding commandment coming from God and ignoring it is sin just like when you ignore the other 9 commandments
1 John 3:4King James Version (KJV)
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If you think Iit's not true what i am saying in not correct- go ahead and prove me wrong Twinky, starting from this post
Please answer my question or explain scripture that I am pointing out first- eg explain the scripture as to what it's saying then you can ask me your question and I will do the same
In answer to your first question- why do i think sabbath is important out of all the other things that is being discussed on gsc
Answer: Because God said it - Would that be a good enough reason Twinky?
Exodus 20:8-11
People agree to all the other 9 commandments in Exodus 20 but they ignore the 4th commandment and willfully sin week in and week out
i.e 7th day Sabbath Keeping Commandment
Now my turn- since you are so much into the love commandment which i agree is very important
The 10 commandments are in fact based on love for God and love for your neighbour ( Matthew 22:40)
The first 4 commandments someone keeps because they love God and the next 6 commandments someone keeps
is because they love their neighbour (people they come across)
So Twinky could you please explain a couple of bible verse below first (as to what it is saying).
If you could focus on the highlighted words, that would be great and then you can ask me a question
Please explain
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
Secondly You say you Love Jesus
Sol let's see what God of the bible thinks and the biblical proof that someone loves God from his or her heart
Please explain
John 14:
He that hath my commandments, (includes 7th day sabbath commandment) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
I will wait to see if you are courageous enough to explain and answer my questions above directly
It's not a scripture slug-fest, Waxit. That's a very TWI-thing ("I know better scriptures than you do"). And don't indulge in adding words in your own PI.
I (and many others) have stated a different view, which you cannot accept. Fine. End of.
It's not even what scriptures one knows - it's the ones one acts upon, puts into practice, that matter. And you cannot see the entire outworking of my faith - but the Lord does - and those who have eyes to see, do.
As you'll be aware, Waxit, the "10Cs" are expanded in the following chapters of Exodus. I wonder about your take on two things. One of these is this (and the other is completely unrelated to sabbath-keeping, so not mentioned here):
Quote
The Sabbath and Land
Ex 34:10“And you shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, 11but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove. 12“Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor in order that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. 13“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth.
[/quote/]
(Presumably these people were allowed to trade, weave, make pots, work metals... they'd need an income even if the land were to be left fallow)
Do your actions cause other people to work the land every year and not leave the land fallow for every 7th year?
Do you voluntarily cease working at your normal type of work every 7th year? Which 7th year is that calculated from?
On the weekly sabbaths, do your own actions compel others not to cease from labour? On the Saturdays (presumably) that you observe as a day of rest, do you do anything that means others have to work? Do you shop, go out for a meal, consume gas, electricity, water, or other services? For example, do you flush your toilet? Even though many of these essential services nowadays are automated, you'll doubtless find that there are always maintenance staff on standby - some of whom may be believers - but you'll see also that "strangers" (non-believers) are also entitled to "refresh" themselves.
The whole of this commandment is not just Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holyThere’s a little more tacked onto the end.
To really honour and keep the Sabbath, you must ensure also that nobody else in your household, nor your animals (equiv. your car??) nor any other person in your town works.(Big ask, that!I’d settle for “in your immediate vicinity,” to make it easier)
(Apologies in advance if the formatting looks odd, due to copy/paste limitations and I'm very tired as it's well past time to be asleep.)
BUT the following is a quote
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.[/quote/]
Edited by Twinky Formating (still won't come right)
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Waxit
It doesn't matter- I was the one who started the "one man esteemeth one day above another"
Did you answer the question I asked at the end of my previous post? It's important that you answer the question and then afterwards
you can discuss and throw more bible bible verses that show "sabbath is not important" until i exhaust them for you and everyone else
Ok!
Please go to this very helpful artice that clearly explains "one man esteemeth one day above another" Rom 15:5 verse
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/did-paul-teach-that-all-days-of-worship-are-alike
Feel free to look up all the scriptures
Before you go there, I would like to summarise what you will find there.
You will see that:
(1) Romans 14:5 in context is definitely not talking about sabbath - This alone takes the sting out of the anti sabbath stance
In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing
as no hard and fast rule
(2) If you are correct and Paul was in fact referring to the sabbath days- We have a problem Houston
Paul if he was referring to sabbath days he would be contradicting himself in Romans 3:31and other numerous scriptures- the bible will fall apart
i would like to quote just 2 bible verses for now
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (incl 7th day sabbath)
(keep the law
Acts 13:42
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(why wait one one whole week-
these were gentile christians)
if 7th day sabbath was irrelevant)
(3) When i refer to laws and commanadments of God- it's always in reference to and includes the 7th day Sabbath keeping Commandment- 4th commandment
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Waxit
Wow! Not a hair out of place for James Bond- that's Amazing!!!!
I wonder what what hair gel he uses
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T-Bone
probably Bondo
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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T-Bone
I don’t mean to burst your bubble, but so far you have NOT exhausted (drain someone of their physical or mental resources; tire out) me and a few other posters who have stuck with this thread – nor does it seem to me that your participation has been exhaustive ( considering all elements or aspects; fully comprehensive) of this topic.
If you are referring to the question at the end of your previous post – quoted here
I am pleased to inform you that I did respond to your question – quoting myself here
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Waxit
The bible shows where we are spiritually.
From the following verses, it is clear the importance of commandent keeping (includes 7th day Sabbath)
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
How do you explain the above verses in light of your anti sabbath stance?
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Twinky
By the same token, I ask that you don't avoid or ignore the question I asked YOU four times already - and others have also asked the same.
You answer first. Go ahead. Succinctly. In your own words.
After all, this is what you also recently said:
So, answer :)
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T-Bone
I beg to differ – “includes 7th day Sabbath” (which I put in bold red of your quote) - or even just the word "Sabbath" is NOT mentioned or even alluded to in I John 2: 3 & 4 - it seems to me you are trying to force your assumption into this discussion...So I refuse to dignify your loaded question with a response - instead I will re-frame the question in a straight forward manner - what are his "commandments" mentioned in I John?
The word “commandments” is indeed intriguing – and should warrant the attention of Bible students. Let’s use Scripture to interpret Scripture – I believe clarification as to what “commandments” refers to may be gathered from the immediate context as well as the greater context…please allow me to quote more of this chapter, and of II John after which I will humbly offer an explanation.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes…I John 2: 3- 11 NASB
4 I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. 5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it…II John 4 – 6 NASB
== == == == == ==
In I John 2:7, when John says “I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard” he is probably using word play to reinforce the meaning of “commandment”. Though John does not say what the commandment is in I John, he does clearly state what it is in II John 5 & 6 (see above text quote) – it is the commandment to love…John saying the commandment was “old” may refer to the Old Testament commands to love in Leviticus 19:18 “…you shall love your neighbor as yourself…” and in Deuteronomy 6:5 “…You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…”. The command that we love one another seems to be consistent with directives given elsewhere in the New Testament (see Matt. 22: 39; John 13: 35; 15:12; Rom. 13:10; Gal. 5:13; Eph. 4: 2; I Thess. 4:9; Heb. 13:1; James 2:8; I Peter 1:22; 2:17; 4: 8; I John 3:16, 17, 23; 4: 11, 21).
Though I don’t see any directives or mandatory obligation to keep the Sabbath in the epistles of I John or II John – you are certainly free to think that there are.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Mark Sanguinetti
Does John ever mention Sabbath in this letter? Please read the actual text instead of trying to change the actual text with your mindset.
In addition to the above text, the word Sabbath is listed 0 times in 1st John with five chapters. In contrast, the word love is listed 35 times in 1st John using the NIV version. I hope we can all at least pass one 3rd grade math test. What is a higher number that obviously shows more importance? The number 35 or the number 0? I am confident that T-Bone can pass third grade math and see that 35 is a higher number than 0. I also can see that and hopefully pass third grade math, while at least being able to pass one math test. Hopefully, Waxit can also pass third grade math, while also seeing that 35 is a higher number than 0. I am now cheering for Mark S., T-Bone, Waxit, Twinky and everyone on this forum to pass third grade math. Yea!!!!!
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Twinky
A little off topic, this, but seems reasonably relevant to where the discussion is currently. A version of this was in my Inbox this evg; I chose this one because the words are also shown:
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Waxit
could you please tell me which question, you want me to answer?
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Waxit
Hi Mark
I am sure you know what the word "commandment" means. Ok! just to make it crystal clear - please refer to the definition of commandment
This definition just popped up when i googled it -you can refer below
You say love has been mentioned 35 times but there has been no mention of the word sabbath in 1 John
Surely you must know that the word commandment which is mentioned 35 times already includes the 7th day sabbath
keeping commandment. So that's why the sabbath becomes significantly important as part of the commandmentsss (plural)
in 1 John 2:3-4
It is not necessarily true to say that you can judge the importance of a particular subject based on the times a related
word is directly quoted- in the case love and sabbath
If you use that kind of a logic then I can also say, "Adultery" has been mentioned "0" times in 1 John
So does that mean since the word"adultery" has not been mentioned in 1 John, it must not be important and insignificant. So like
vpw shameless sex in the mire, it shouldn't matter, as long as you love your female neighbour, it's ok if you committed adutery with her.
That doesn't make sense Does it? Exactly that's why love and commandment keeping are strongly inter linked
Put it this way and I hope you cn meditate on this till it is etched in your heart,
Loving God (which most christians) will profess = Keeping His commandments (Incl 7th day sabbath) 1 John 5:3
John doesnt have to mention every single commandment by word for you to understand that all the components
of God's commandments are included in the word "commandments" and important (includes 7thday sabbath)
So making something insignificant just because the word is not directly mentioned in a particular section of the bible is not a reliable
way to arrive at a conclusion.
Did you know that the word "God" is not mentioned, not once-zilch,nada "0" times in the book of Esther?
Does that make God insignificant???? God forbid
What if i told you that the word "sabbath" is mentioned in the book of Acts about 84 times- surely that should also tell you something, shouldn' t it?
Ok! Let's get on to the definition of commandment
Commandment
but it is still just one commandment- what about the rest?
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandmentsss.(plural
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandmentsss(plural), is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Summary
Firstly in regards to the above verses, the word "commandments" is a broad all encompassing word that includes all the commandments of God- i.e love commandment, 10 commandments (including 7th day sabbath) and all the rest
of God's commandments in the bible pertainaing to every area of lives. The greek translation says "directives". Directives here refers to God's directions. The commandments or laws of God are God's directions
7th day sabbath commandment is a major commandment (relationship commandment in the 10 commandments) that is largely
ignored week in week out worldwide by most christians.
Secondly, I am banging my head again and again that love of God is very strongly linked to commandment keeping (including
7th day sabbath) but it doesnt seem to be getting through on gsc. When will people understand that God wants both love and commandment keeping. I am so tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. It's like ground hogs day
And when i dont reply, people think i am ignoring them.
Mark, all of God's commandments are based on love and on the flip side, He is clearly telling us in no uncertain terms what love of God is
1 John 5:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (includes 7day sabbath): and his commandments are not grievous (not a burden- it's a blessing)
In all honesty, you cannot keep the commandments of God without loving God- It will be meaningless and confusing- you dont have to keep the commandments if you dont love god- your carnal nature will quickly figure that out and before long, you will fail
In the same way conversely if you love God (coming from a biblical perspective) you will humble yourself to keeping the
commandments of God
Are we to obey God or do we keep looking for a loophole which will match what we want and what we think God should be saying?
I mean who are we to argue against the Almighty, All Wise, All Powerful and thankfully Loving God?
We are but dust with a pea brain and to dust will we return. What gives us life is God? We must worship God in spirit and truth and reverently obey His commandments- The 7th day sabbath keeping law is not only a commandment - it's God's gift to man- a special time to rest from our labours and to rest in God spiritually devoted to Godly activities of worship, teaching,fellowship where the spirit of God brings healing and restoration.
It seems to me that people who are anti sabbath are looking hard to find an escape clause from the 7th day sabbath keeping law/commandment . Well there aint any
Jeremiah 18
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel (people of God), cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord.
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Regards
Waxit
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Mark Sanguinetti
Perhaps you will need to edit your above comments to correct your math error. Either that or you would need to do the work to create your own biblical version, while adding the word Sabbath to your new version many times. However, every current version has MUCH less usages of the word Sabbath for the book of Acts. I hope it is OK to be factual here. In using biblical reference software, the New Testament has the Greek word "sabbasin" for the Sabbath day. This is Strong's number 4521. There are 68 usages of this Greek word in the New Testament . To help Waxit correct his error there are ten (10) usages of this Greek word for Sabbath in the book of Acts. WOW this is the same number as the original Old Testament law with ten commandments. Of these 68 New Testament usages. The first 8 usages of the Greek word for Sabbath in the New Testament are all in Matthew chapter 12. Please read this chapter as quoted below and see that this was the Pharisees accusing Jesus Christ of not following the law of the Sabbath day. Waxit, please do not act like a Pharisee here while accusing us of not following the Sabbath day.
The final usage of this Greek word for Sabbath is Colossians 2:16. This final usage from Paul says that we should not let anyone judge us regarding whether or not we have a special Sabbath day of special worship. These are only a figurative and symbolic shadow of things found in Jesus Christ our savior.
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Waxit
You are getting all twisted Mark because you dont understand that the law of sabbath day that the pharisees
followed was their own strict man made interpretations (judaism not christianity). They have thousands of them and they are laborious and burdensome-
They even had strict ways of they should wash their hands and how if someone's house caught fire on the sabbath- they are not permitted to
take all their belongings (they considered that work) but they could take as much clothes as possible by wearing their clothes on them- to them that's not considered work
go figure- so for eg you would have to wear 3 of your suits-3 of your long pants- s shrts- wonder how you will wear 2 shoes?
So in this case the disciples were going through the fields and they were hungry so they pluck the ears of the corns which they are permitted to do
but the pharisees jump in and say-the disciples plucking the corn = harversting and threshing (judaism)- what a load of nonsense
So Mark, I am not the pharisee here- I am not saying you cannot pluck corn and eat on the sabbath day
so i think you saying I am a pharisee is not correct.
Jesus Christ rightly told them another scripture where David and his men were hungry and they the ate the shre bread which was on the altar
Notice the question or the issue brought up by the pharisees is not whether they were observing the sabbath but rather how it was being
observed. The pharisees wanted Jesus and his disciples to observe the sabbath according to their strict man made traditions (Judaism)
wherby the Lord pointed them to what David and his men did when they were hungry Matt 12:3-5
So Mark you can take the law of the sabbath day according to the pharisees (man made traditions of phaisees) have shove it down the toilet
You have gone off topic in branching out to "how the pharisees wanted the sabbath to be observed" .
If you kindly focus on the issue of observing the 7th day sabbath according to God's commandment (Jesus Christ was never accused by the pharisees of not keeping the 7th day sabbath)
Do not focus on what the pharisee idiots wanted - focus on whether you are keeping the 7th day sabbath commandment of God
Keeping the 7th day sabbath is not about a bunch of legalistic rules to be observed
If that is all that you can think of after i have given you clear explanation on the strong link
between The love of God and the 7th day sabbath then i feel sorry for you that you are not grasping what sabbah keeping is
In regards to the sabbath being quoted 84 times in the book of acts. Hmmm! I thought that I did see this sometime ago
If I am wrong- I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying that
Here are some interesting reading on the issue of 7th day sabbath keeping
for you
Sabbath in the book of Acts
https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/the-sabbath-in-acts-lukes-record-of-pauls-understanding
The pharisees accusing Jesus of not following the law of the sabbath day does not equal to me saying 7th day sabbath commanded by God (Ex 20:8-11)
(Nonsense -I dont agree with this rubbish- Go find a pharisee in your neighbourhood (God's laws and commandment)
and have a chow down with him- I dont give a hoot about what the pharisees did
I dont like their legalistic rules and I certainly will not practise them- they are ridiculous-if you ask me
and never commanded by God.
You have gone off topic from love of God and commandment keeping whch we were discussing to the nonsense of the pharisees of man made traditions
which we are all aware off- I dont know why you tried this cheap shot on me. There are more relevant and significant things to discuss Mark if you
are truly interested in findding about why it's so impoartant to keep the 7th day Sabbath.
If you are not interested in finding about more and want a better understanding of the very concerning scriptures i have highlighted
for people ignoring the sabbath, please let me know- so I dont have to waste my time with you
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Mark Sanguinetti
At least Waxit is trying to see one of his mistakes. Regarding the Pharisees and their promotion of the Sabbath day. with the first eight usages of the Greek word for Sabbath from Mathew chapter 12 telling of this. Waxit is certainly not as bad as the Pharisees of the first century with their hatred while wanting to murder Jesus Christ and other followers of God and Jesus Christ his Son. I hope Waxit at least sees that murder is a worse offense than not following the Sabbath day.
With Paul in all of his writings only mentioning the word Sabbath two times, while not seeing it in a positive way like Waxit sees Sabbath. Should Waxit also feel sorry for Paul and think he knows more about at least the day of Sabbath than the apostle Paul? I previously quoted from Colossians 2:16 and surrounding verses that has the Greek word Sabbath. This shows that people that accuse others of not following Sabbath as a special day should be ignored. Here is the only other usage of the Greek word for Sabbath as written by Paul. Many biblical versions translate this as "of the week" (KJV) , "of every week" (NASB) and (NIV)
The context of this day is giving money to poor people that need it so that Paul does not have to collect it. And it says do this on the first day and not the last day of the week, with the last day of the week being the day of Sabbath. Does this show the importance of the day of Sabbath to the apostle Paul?
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Twinky
The one I have asked you at least four times. And others have asked you also.
You can either: admit you don't bother to read threads in sufficient detail, and therefore request me to post the question again; or
You can read the entire thread, find the question, and answer it.
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Rocky
You're tired of repeating the same thing over and over again? How do you think God feels about the situation?
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Stayed Too Long
Waxit:
Is it finally getting thtough to you that you have convinced no one at GSC about hour Sabbath argument? That it makes no sense?
Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Sound a bit like you.
Stayed Too Long
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Rocky
I haven't been trying to convince anyone here about Sabbath. Perhaps you meant to be asking someone else?
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T-Bone
I disagree with you - it appears to me that Paul is using a rather broad general term in the context referring to days appointed to be observed by the Jewish law – Paul does NOT exclude the Sabbath. Rather in a brief but comprehensive manner Paul is talking about regarding a certain day above another – it could be a feast day – days of unleavened bread, the Passover, feast of tabernacles, etc., or even the Sabbath…You are contradicting yourself saying Paul was not talking about the sabbath when in fact you said he did - you said: “In those days they had religious activities on certain days of the week and that's what Paul is addressing” – yes, you’re absolutely right - they did have religious activities on certain days - such as the Sabbath set aside as a day of worship – a religious activity.
In Romans 3 Paul is starting to develop the theme of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Does that mean everything Judaism stood for is wiped out? Not at all – Paul says in Rom. 3:31 that faith actually confirms the purpose of the law. As I stated in a previous post – the law was a means to provide payment for when people sinned, to show mankind’s inability to obey God’s righteous demands and to point to Christ as the Savior...Romans 4 talks about Abraham being justified by faith - not by works.
I don’t see a contradiction with what Paul said in Romans 3 with what he said in Romans 14. Because in Rom.14 Paul addresses the latitude we have regarding the observance or non-observance of certain days. Perhaps if you ease up on the Sabbath bias (inserting Sabbath-keeping parenthetically in your mind - and in your post
) you might see that Romans 3 and Romans 14 do not oppose each other. Paul introduces saving faith in Romans 3. By the time he gets to Romans 14 Paul is detailing some practical aspects of faith. (Selections from Romans 3, 4 & 14 are given below).
As to dogma-scare-tactics like “if there’s contradictions the Bible will fall apart” – that is really just a false dilemma - As Wikipedia says “The false dilemma fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception.” - ...Sometimes we may think we're stuck in an either/or situation when in fact there may be several more options available.
When it comes right down to it – the Bible is what it is. Ever hear that expression before? What does it mean? It indicates the immutable nature of the Bible - meaning whatever was written down in those ancient texts is not going to change - what's done is done.... Yes, there are a lot of translations and versions out there which reflect various translation philosophies (form-driven, meaning-driven, etc.) – but if translators are worth their salt their rendering of the ancient texts usually convey the same basic ideas of God, Jesus Christ, sin, redemption, prayer, brotherly love and so forth. An interesting book about the trustworthiness of these ancient texts is The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable by FF Bruce ...I think a more apt phrase might be “if there’s contradictions in a theology – one's religion might fall apart.” For the aim of systematic theology is to arrange religious truths in a self-consistent whole. ( see systematic theology for more info)
== == ==
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those ]who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law…Rom. 3:21-31 NASB
== == == ==
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not [m]through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...Romans 4: 1-16 NASB
== == ==
14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God....Romans 14: 1-6 NASB
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Stayed Too Long
I was referring to Waxit. Thanks.
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Rocky
Yes, I saw that after you edited your post. Thanks.
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Waxit
Hi Twinky
You are not the only person I am answering to - and I dont have the time to find the thread-since there have been a number of posts between us
Look- your posts are not as long and detailed as mine as mine so i do read it entirely- I think you are very presumptious when you say I dont read it in sufficient detail. And sorry No! I cannot admit to something that I am not guilty of
In fact I think it's the other way around - you are not answering the question / explanation that i am asking you and
the reason I know this, is because you dont bother to ask me questions based on the scripture that I am pointing you
which means you are ignoring what the word of God is saying or you have not read it in sufficient detail to ask me a question
based on the very same scripture that i have brought to your attention.
Instead what you do is, you simply turn around and point to another scripture
One instance where i remember answering your question is when you said the actual sabbath day has been lost through history because of calendar changes.
I distinctly remember giving you a clear explanation how in spite of calendar changes the 7th day sabbath has always
remained the same i.e saturday
You are welcomed to answer me a question anytime - I will answer it directly without going elsewhere or giving another question
I get the impression that you avoid answering my question because you are afraid to know that 7th day sabbath commandment is a valid
and binding commandment coming from God and ignoring it is sin just like when you ignore the other 9 commandments
1 John 3:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
If you think Iit's not true what i am saying in not correct- go ahead and prove me wrong Twinky, starting from this post
Please answer my question or explain scripture that I am pointing out first- eg explain the scripture as to what it's saying
then you can ask me your question and I will do the same
In answer to your first question- why do i think sabbath is important out of all the other things that is being discussed on gsc
Answer: Because God said it - Would that be a good enough reason Twinky?
Exodus 20:8-11
People agree to all the other 9 commandments in Exodus 20 but they ignore the 4th commandment and willfully sin week in and week out
i.e 7th day Sabbath Keeping Commandment
Now my turn- since you are so much into the love commandment which i agree is very important
The 10 commandments are in fact based on love for God and love for your neighbour ( Matthew 22:40)
The first 4 commandments someone keeps because they love God and the next 6 commandments someone keeps
is because they love their neighbour (people they come across)
So Twinky could you please explain a couple of bible verse below first (as to what it is saying).
If you could focus on the highlighted words, that would be great and then you can ask me a question
Please explain
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous
Secondly You say you Love Jesus
Sol let's see what God of the bible thinks and the biblical proof that someone loves God from his or her heart
Please explain
John 14:
He that hath my commandments, (includes 7th day sabbath commandment) and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
I will wait to see if you are courageous enough to explain and answer my questions above directly
Regards
Waxit
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Twinky
It's not a scripture slug-fest, Waxit. That's a very TWI-thing ("I know better scriptures than you do"). And don't indulge in adding words in your own PI.
I (and many others) have stated a different view, which you cannot accept. Fine. End of.
It's not even what scriptures one knows - it's the ones one acts upon, puts into practice, that matter. And you cannot see the entire outworking of my faith - but the Lord does - and those who have eyes to see, do.
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Twinky
As you'll be aware, Waxit, the "10Cs" are expanded in the following chapters of Exodus. I wonder about your take on two things. One of these is this (and the other is completely unrelated to sabbath-keeping, so not mentioned here):
Edited by TwinkyFormating (still won't come right)
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