My comment to which you replied, Waxit, was very tongue-in-cheek.
You haven't bothered to reply to my comment on what YOU raised - about Noah.
I have already replied with a detailed explanation of why Noah kept the sabbath
although there is no specific verse in the bible- It's a case of putting 2 and 2 together
The word "oxygen" is never mentioned in the bible but you know they must have been breathing oxygen
I dont know whether you have read it and I am wondering why you havent bothered to reply
You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough.
In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses?
Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Romans 14:5-6:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage.
Stayed Too Long
These verses have been put to you by a number of posters. Yet you refuse to address them....they are an elephant in the room you have chosen to ignore.
According to Galatians 4:9-10, you have returned to the bondage you claim to want to get others out of. It appears you are engulfed in Bondage again. 2 Peter 2:22 is where you are in your life according to the Word of God:
2 Peter 2:22, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dogisturned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
You may not realize it, but you are not biblically in a place most Christians want to reside in.
I have already replied with a detailed explanation of why Noah kept the sabbath
although there is no specific verse in the bible- It's a case of putting 2 and 2 together
The word "oxygen" is never mentioned in the bible but you know they must have been breathing oxygen
I dont know whether you have read it and I am wondering why you havent bothered to reply
Talk about double standards.
Didn't you grouse about and demand that since no one (supposedly) had refuted you "with a specific bible verse" you wouldn't consider anyone else's view on the subject?
You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough.
In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses?
Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Romans 14:5-6:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage.
Stayed Too Long
9 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:
These verses have been put to you by a number of posters. Yet you refuse to address them....they are an elephant in the room you have chosen to ignore.
According to Galatians 4:9-10, you have returned to the bondage you claim to want to get others out of. It appears you are engulfed in Bondage again. 2 Peter 2:22 is where you are in your life according to the Word of God:
2 Peter 2:22, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dogisturned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
You may not realize it, but you are not biblically in a place most Christians want to reside in.
Stayed Too Long, you’ve got me thinking again about Waxit’s explicit demand for proof (specifically one verse that shows Sabbath keeping is now insignificant) – an insistent request which he has made several times. And as several Grease Spotters have pointed out – his demand has been met several times over. So I was wondering why he hasn’t bothered to counter-argue the verses that folks have quoted to him.
Waxit is very passionate and persistent – two qualities I always respect and admire – and so I have to say, by now this thread has grown on me…maybe from a human interest angle…I am always fascinated by what motivates people and why we think the way we do (I’ll say more on why I’m interested in a minute).
== == == ==
Waxit, I think it’s safe to say we’ve come to some sort of an impasse – so I was wondering if you would be willing to change it up a little.
If you set aside the differences in doctrine and belief systems – there’s something to be said for mutual respect – recognizing that we all have some valuable and important contributions to make at Grease Spot.
Since we seem to be getting nowhere in this formal debate involving two sides of keeping the Sabbath ( probably because there has not been a common agreement of the rules) – I propose a short detour, and then perhaps we can get back on track with the debate and hopefully all of us mutually agreeing to some rules.
How about a demilitarized zone of discussion – where using words and even scripture as weapons are not allowed…I have a personal stake in this, by the way – my sister-in-law used to be in TWI but now is involved with Seventh-Day Adventists – we do have our differences theologically, of course but I tend to humanize things when I can’t relate to something she believes or have a hard time understanding why she believes that way. We do make some headway when we both share why we feel so strongly about something – this gets more into the deep core beliefs that motivate us…I will say this – I don’t agree with her on the importance of keeping the Sabbath – but I do admire her devotion to the things that she believes are a spiritual priority.
Beliefs are our mental map to make sense of and navigate through our complex world – and this mental map is somewhat intertwined with how we define ourselves – which is probably why it’s so hard to change what we believe about certain things….Well, since nobody has a perfectly accurate mental map I think it can be helpful at times to “compare notes” and even speak freely, without hiding feelings.
Waxit, what I am asking is why do you feel keeping the Sabbath is so important to you?
Can you say why it is so important without referring to scripture?
So to be clear - I am not asking you for any scripture references nor am I asking why you think it should be important to everyone else.
For something to be important to you – it must have changed your life. How?
By the way, there are no wrong answers because of the way I’ve asked the questions.
With Saturday as the day of Sabbath according to what Waxit believes. Perhaps I was not sinning last night (Friday) as I got much needed sleep and rest for Saturday. However, after sleeping last night (Friday/Saturday after 12:00 midnight) I woke up very early in the morning and instead of sleeping again I WORKED by editing one of my biblical articles titled "The Authority and Supremacy of Jesus Christ". Perhaps according to Waxit and the day of Sabbath that I was SINNING while working to edit one of my biblical articles on Saturday. I am sorry church that Waxit goes to for working on a biblical article on Saturday. Perhaps I should especially apologize because this article was not about the importance of the day of Sabbath. Instead the article shows the authority and supremacy of Jesus Christ. However, perhaps after sinning, while working on a biblical article, I went back to sleep this Saturday morning and slept again for a few hours. Perhaps I got nine hours of sleep last night and this morning. Is that enough sleep on the Sabbath day of rest to at least lessen my sinful work? Of course, Jesus Christ was clearly accused of also working on the Sabbath day by the scribes and Pharisees when he helped people. So perhaps if I get accused of working on a biblical article on the Sabbath day. I am getting compared to Jesus Christ. If I got accused of this then perhaps I would say to my accusers; "Sorry I am not Jesus Christ. I am simply one of his followers. I hope this is OK."
Waxit, what I am asking is why do you feel keeping the Sabbath is so important to you?
I asked him this ages ago. He says it's because it's important to keep God's law. I don't know why this particular one of God's many laws is particularly important, especially given the explicit Bible direction that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness.
I asked him this ages ago. He says it's because it's important to keep God's law. I don't know why this particular one of God's many laws is particularly important, especially given the explicit Bible direction that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness.
Be good if you got an answer.
That’s right, I remember that now…but anyway, I wanted to reboot the conversation…think I got off on the wrong foot with Waxit…I do tend to come on strong sometimes…just trying to make amends for the way I come across…Waxit, if you happen to read this, I beg your pardon.
given the explicit Bible direction that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness.
Hi Twinky- Long time no hear from you- Can we still be friends?
Sure I would be glad to answer you
I am sorry to say that this is not the explicit direction of the bible and the kjv translators sometimes get their noses out of joint by
incorrectly translating this verse. I will explain to you why below
Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The word "end" in Romans 10:4 is the greek word "telos" which means the aim or purpose of a thing
You could say the end purpose. Because the kjv translators who by the way put the word "easter" in the book of Acts
which i thought was hilarious have decided in their infinite wisdom to just put the word "end" there instead of what Paul intended
to convey.
The Greek word telos, translated “end” in Romans 10:4, can convey variations in meaning, including “ ‘the aim or purpose’ of a thing” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “End, Ending”). This is very clear in the New King James Version’s rendering of 1 Timothy 1:5, where telos is properly translated as purpose in the clause “the purpose of the commandment is love.” In this same verse the NRSV translates telos as “aim” and the NIV renders it as “goal.”
In modern terms, it will be like a bank officewr asking a bank loan applicant:
To what end or purpose , are you making this bank loan application
What Paul is saying here in Romans 10:4 by using " telos" -aim or purpose of something is to say:
For Christ is the aim or purpose (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
So it's not as you say Christ is the end of the law for righteousness- which is what the KJV translators want you to believe
They are doing the translations according to what they think is correct and this comes from their "end of the law" mindset
and so they found the opporunity to tamper with the word of God (they will get spanked one day because God said dont add or substract from the word
The KJV transklators want you to believe what they want you to believe where they can get to believe- (very misleading- another of their easter insertions)
Please do check out the greek interlinear and you will uncover a lot of the mistakes.
How would you like them to be responsible for road signs for the whole of London-? You might end up in Scotland.
Spiritually this is what they are doing. Leading people astray
There's one thing that I would like to bring up though and I hope people start taking notice of the fact that any anti law bible verse that you come up with
you are going to have problems explaining the pro or for the law bible verses. It's easy to say what about this and what about that but how you going to explain
the clear verse in Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
You can come up with any anti law bible verse to support your preference for not keeping the 7th day sabbath
and you will come up with the road block at highway Rom 3:31. So how are you going to handle that?
Please dont think I am ignoring you because I dont have the answers, if that's what you are thinking
You guys can come with any anti law/sabbath bible verse and I will be explain it to you even if I have to do some research
This bible really concerns me for people who think it is ok to ignore God's 7th day sabbath keeping commandment
and this is what God is saying in James 2:10-11 (not what I am saying). Hopefully you will meditate on this- it's serious if you are a true christian believer
Pray to God for confirmation of sabbath keeping commandment (You can throw darts at me or buns- but I love you and pray you will take heed
James 2:10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point (ignore the 7th day sabbath), he is guilty of all.( all the other 9 commandments
stealing, adultery, lying......etc)
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
yet if thou ignore the 7th day sabbath thou art become a transgressor of the law
For Christ is the aim or purpose (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer.
The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time, or season.
We are to do as Jesus did, in heart, soul, mind, and strength. That means: loving and obeying God. And then, loving our neighbours (=those around us, those we come into contact with).
It doesn't mean: following all the ritual that Jesus followed, and much of which he poo-poo'd.
Taking another look at the verses that Waxit mentioned – I have a different take – our faith in Christ enables us to go far and above what any feeble attempts at just abiding by the law will hope to accomplish.
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”…Romans 10: 1-13 NASB
It seems rather obvious to me that Paul is saying the aim of what Christ did was to put an end to a person’s futile attempts at righteousness by vain efforts to obey the law – instead a much easier solution is presented – simply a belief in Christ as Lord and Savior (verses 8-13).
== == == ==
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law……Romans 3: 21-31 NASB
Paul is not disparaging or belittling the law here – but rather underscores the purpose of the law and how faith fulfills that purpose. Paul develops this further in chapters 6 & 7. If one thinks about the impetus of the law – toprovide a means to pay for the penalty of infractions and to show our inability to obey God’s righteous demands - and ultimately to drive us to Christ - ( see But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal. 3: 23-25 NASB). By our faith in Christ (accepting him who paid the price for our sins and consequently we've been given the capacity to obey God from the heart – see Romans 8:3, 4) we “establish” - histémi in the Greek – establish, uphold, set in balance, initiate, institute – the law. When I think of “set in balance” I picture the different elements of the law are in correct proportions – think of Jesus' words in Matthew 23: 23, 24 NASB: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. ..And if you remember back in Matthew 22: 34-40 Jesus revealed the fulcrum – the pivot point – that upon which the whole law rests – it’s love for God and neighbor. Our faith in Christ enables us to act with genuine love – which I think is the guiding principle in Romans 14, showing Christ’s power to bring together dissimilar people ( some with concern for certain details of the law and others who have no such concern for the details or the ceremony of the law, or may not even have any knowledge of the law) into genuine unity.
== == == ==
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment…James 2:8- 13 NASB
It doesn’t seem to me James is saying if you violate one commandment, you violate them all. James refers to the “royal law” in v.8. Perhaps a better translation might be the supreme law – i.e. the law above all other laws – which James clarifies in the same verse – when he is says “the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”. That command along with the first command to love God summarizes all the law and the prophets (Matt. 22:36-40; Rom. 13:8-10). It seems to me what James means by saying you violate one command then you violate them all – is that you are in effect actually breaking the linchpinthat holds the whole law together – love for God and neighbor.
Or perhaps James is suggesting a domino effect - a cumulative effect produced when one event initiates a succession of similar events. Imagine if the law was a beautiful stained glass window, breaking even one piece of the window compromises the structure and can cause additional issues. Or if the lead that holds the pieces together begins to fatigue more pressure is placed on the glass and could cause breaks in the glass.
I don’t think the law of God is a bunch of disjointed directives but a unified code of conduct that requires love for God and neighbor in order to be in full compliance . James is saying you fulfill the supreme law by loving your neighbor as yourself - as he says in verse 8 "you are doing well".
Note verse 12 "the law of liberty"... James 1:25 also mentions the law of liberty and equates it with the perfect law. Maybe I’m a little off base here – but I tend to look at the entire Bible as God’s law – rules for living – - and for convenience sake they've been condensed it's just two big ones now, love God and neighbor - and with faith in Christ, abiding by those rules is liberating – as in freedom from the bondage of sin (see Rom. 7 & 8).
== == = ==
To round off my post – I'm switching gears from what Paul said about fulfilling the law of love by faith and now taking a look at I Timothy where Paul gets into dealing with those who want to be teachers of the law and eclipse the Christian life based on faith in what Christ has accomplished for us.
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions…I Timothy 1: 3- 7 NASB
Verse 5 says “the goal of our instruction” – the word “our” is absent from the interlinear text – but I believe it is well supplied – for it seems tied to verse 3 where Paul said to Timothy to remain at Ephesus and instruct certain men. “Instruct” and “instruction” in both verses is from a form of the same Greek word – paraggello – and basically means to give an authorized command. Paul says that the goal of his instruction (his directives as authorized by God warning of erroneous doctrines, myths, speculation, fruitless discussions and to keep preaching of Christ the Savior, holding onto faith and a good conscience - see verses 8 - 20) is to engender love, help one keep a clear conscience, and develop genuine faith.
With T-Bone quoting from the epistle of Romans from the NASB (New American Standard Bible). I wonder if Waxit will complain about this biblical version also? He previously complained about the King James Version that was written in the 1500s and specifically about this version for the epistle to the Romans. Yes the Romans were not under the Old Testament law. They had different laws. Hopefully they would at least through Jesus Christ see the importance of love. The translation work for the NASB was first published in 1963 and finished in 1971. A newer version was published in 1995. This looks like regular English so it should not be a problem for reading the content.
It seems rather obvious to me that Paul is saying the aim of what Christ did was to put an end to a person’s futile attempts at righteousness by vain efforts to obey the law – instead a much easier solution is presented – simply a belief in Christ as Lord and Savior (verses 8-13).
Like your post, T-Bone.
My "Passion Bible" (HCSB) gives Rom 10: as this:
For Christ is the end (or goal) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Reading through to the end of this section of Romans, I'm really happy that "No one who believes on Him (or, on God) will be put to shame" (HSCB, quoting Is 28:16, rather than believing in some laws given to a different group of people in a different time. It seems easier to believe on God, on Jesus, on the direct promises of salvation. And then, our actions and good deeds flow as an outworking of our faith, our believing on Him (James 2, among other places).
Our actions and good deeds might include sabbath-keeping, among other things; having a rest from our worldly work, setting aside those things for fellowship with God and God's people - very worthwhile, to set aside "A" day, any day, to do this.
With T-Bone quoting from the epistle of Romans from the NASB (New American Standard Bible). I wonder if Waxit will complain about this biblical version also? He previously complained about the King James Version that was written in the 1500s and specifically about this version for the epistle to the Romans. Yes the Romans were not under the Old Testament law. They had different laws. Hopefully they would at least through Jesus Christ see the importance of love. The translation work for the NASB was first published in 1963 and finished in 1971. A newer version was published in 1995. This looks like regular English so it should not be a problem for reading the content.
Hi Mark,
for study purposes I often use the NASB…as A User’s Guide to Bible Translations by David Dewey states on page 156, “The NASB is a literal translation, far more than the AV/KJV to the point of being wooden. It is considerably more form-driven than even the RSV, and in the Old Testament far more firmly rejects any conjectural readings or deviations from the traditionally accepted Hebrew text.” …and on page 34 & 36, “A form-driven translation is molded by the structure and style of the original language. Its aim is to come as close to the original as can be achieved in an English rendering. Where possible (depending on just how rigidly this translation philosophy is applied) a form-driven version will keep to the simple dictionary definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words being translated as well as the word order and grammatical structures of the original…Often a form-driven rendering is all that is needed to produce a perfectly sensible and natural translation.”
Dewey talks about the Bible coming from a distant past and remote culture – and unless you are prepared to learn these ancient languages and culture, you must use a translation to access the Word of God. I am a bit of a study-bug though not as much as I was a few years ago. I have something like 27 translations, a couple of interlinears and a Greek New Testament on my bookshelf. For just plain reading enjoyment I use the NIV (which strives for a balance between form-driven and meaning-driven). I do like some of the newer translations and I’m waiting for The Passion to come out with a complete Old and New Testament version.
Whenever I get down to the nitty gritty in a doctrinal study – my go-to translation is often the NASB just because of the good cross-reference system featured in some editions - like the NASB reference edition .
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer.
The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time, or season.
We are to do as Jesus did, in heart, soul, mind, and strength. That means: loving and obeying God. And then, loving our neighbours (=those around us, those we come into contact with).
It doesn't mean: following all the ritual that Jesus followed, and much of which he poo-poo'd.
Hi Twinky
Really nice of you to drop in
You are right in saying get to know Jesus Christ- absolutely
But how can you get to know or to be sure you are on the right track in knowing Jesus Christ?
Consider the following bible verse- maybe you might not have come across this verse- what do you think?
it certainly does not look like Jesus is pooh poohing the sabbath (part of the 10 commandments)
1 John 2:
3 And herebywe do know that we know him,if we keep his commandments. (includes 7th day Sabbath keeping -Thank you very much)
(also includes all of the commandments of love, mercy, truth and teachings of Jesus Christ)
I think you are jumping to conclusions about sabbath being a ritual- there is no magic formula that needs to be observed to make it into a ritual like the jews wanted
Sabbath is not a ritual - It's a commandment of God- you can choose to spend sabbath whatever way you like as long as it is rest, worship God, teaching,
fellowship, meditation- avoid buying and selling- it's a special time devoted to time with God- if you think that is a ritual rather than quality time- then all the best to you
Definiition of ritual:
Ritual
Description
A ritual is a sequence of activities involving gestures, words, actions, or objects, performed in a sequestered place and according to a set sequence. Rituals may be prescribed by the traditions of a community, including a religious community.Wikipedia
I dont know about your sunday service- from the above definition, the sabbath that i observe according to the bible doesnt require me to follow the above regulations
So when you go to your sunday service in your local community at a set time and date for your weekly service- arent you observing set date and time??
but when you keep the 7th day sabbath commanded by God, that suddenly it becomes a ritual to you
If you think that sabbath is a artificial ritual- as opposed to what God commands then obviously you are going to pooh pooh it yourself
and you made a preety wild statement regarding knowing Jesus Christ- "It doesn't mean: following all the ritual that Jesus followed, and much of which he poo-poo'd"
I just need some clarification on this -
Are you equating the "ritual" in the above statement you made to mean "keeping of the sabbath"
or are you meaning just the way that "jews might have kissed each other on the cheeks" - Looks like you have got your wires crossed here
Can you give me one bible verse where Jesus Christ poo pood the keeping of the 7th day sabbath? just one
The pharisees who were ritualised (lol) tried to get the Lord to agree to their rituals but he pretty much told them to take a hike Look at what he is saying Twinky again in regards to traditions of men- relate it to our modern day- when you keep the tradition of men then
you will likelyreject the commandments of God. Sunday service weekly gathering is the tradition of men
and I am quoting scripture not just giving my own opinions without any scripture back up
In reading Mark 7:9, it's quite logical to assume that if Jesus Christ was addressing main line christianity,
he would be saying. Full well ye reject the 7th day Sabbath (part of the 10 commandments) that ye may keep your own traditional ist day-sunday keeping
Mark 7:9
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(modern day sunday keeping service- introduced by the rc religion)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (modern day sunday keeping service- tradition introduced by the rc religion) Catholic VirginianOct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth.
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been been "revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible." (man made tradition)
Whatever you want to say Twinky, you cannot escape the fact that 7th day sabbath is part of the 10 commandments and commanded by God /Jesus Christ
So which one of the above commandments that relates to God , do you want to omit because you think it's a ritual
as opposed to God's express commandment
Did you read the part where I stated that Ignoring the 7th day sabbath is just as bad as lying, stealing and worshipping other Gods
Kindly explain 2 bible verses if you don't mind- i would really appreciate it- there might be something that I can learn from you
Firstly Romans 3:31
Rom 31 Do we then make void the law through faith?????? God forbid: yea, we establish the law!!!!!!
Secondly James 2: 10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point (sabbath keeping), he is guilty of all. (guilty of the rest of the 9 commandments)
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (yet ignore the 7th day sabbath)
From the bible verses I have share above how can we know Jesus Christ better if we are sinning every week by ignoring the 7th day sabbath and being transgressors of the law? Matthew 7:22
Have you seriously thought about this before Twinky?
Hopefully you wont be mad at me for sharing the truth and I will still love you and pray for you even if you decide to throw buns at me
Proverbs 27:6
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Thank you TBone for the information about the NASB biblical version. In writing my biblical articles I also quote from scriptures, while teaching or writing comments about the scriptures. I have not used the NASB version, however I will at least consider using this version now for scriptural quotes. From what you wrote and the following it looks like I should quote a few of the scriptures for at least a few of my articles. My goal is to write a complete biblical teaching book. Here is copy right information for the NASB that I looked up on the internet.
Permission to Quote the NASB®
The text of the New American Standard Bible® may be quoted and/or reprinted up to and inclusive of one thousand (1,000) verses without express written permission of The Lockman Foundation, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 50% of the total work in which they are quoted.
Here is a link to the biblical study software that I use when writing articles, which does include NASB along with many other biblical versions. This software saves times and helps with research.
With Saturday as the day of Sabbath according to what Waxit believes. Perhaps I was not sinning last night (Friday) as I got much needed sleep and rest for Saturday. However, after sleeping last night (Friday/Saturday after 12:00 midnight) I woke up very early in the morning and instead of sleeping again I WORKED by editing one of my biblical articles titled "The Authority and Supremacy of Jesus Christ". Perhaps according to Waxit and the day of Sabbath that I was SINNING while working to edit one of my biblical articles on Saturday. I am sorry church that Waxit goes to for working on a biblical article on Saturday. Perhaps I should especially apologize because this article was not about the importance of the day of Sabbath. Instead the article shows the authority and supremacy of Jesus Christ. However, perhaps after sinning, while working on a biblical article, I went back to sleep this Saturday morning and slept again for a few hours. Perhaps I got nine hours of sleep last night and this morning. Is that enough sleep on the Sabbath day of rest to at least lessen my sinful work? Of course, Jesus Christ was clearly accused of also working on the Sabbath day by the scribes and Pharisees when he helped people. So perhaps if I get accused of working on a biblical article on the Sabbath day. I am getting compared to Jesus Christ. If I got accused of this then perhaps I would say to my accusers; "Sorry I am not Jesus Christ. I am simply one of his followers. I hope this is OK."
Hi Mark
The 7th day sabbath was created for man by God (Sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. The 7th sabbath day was designed for rest physically and
rest spiritually devoted to God as a day of rest, worship God, meditation and fellowship, teaching -
Why it's a special day- is that it is the only only day that hs been set aside (sanctified) and hallowed- you may not feel anything special on that day
But what is spiritual, you cannot feel, taste or smell- it comes down wheher you believe God or not.
It's like the God of the universe is inviting you to a quality time with Him and He has enforced it because he doesnt want you to miss out and the blessings
The amazing thing is He has made keeping the 7th day sabbaath as part of the 10 commandments and he keeping of it runs along as the same vein of importance
as not lying, stealing or committing adultery etc.
Whom am i argue with God. I love Him very much and I trust when He tells me something and diligently observe it and keep it when it is a commandment
I know the long term payoff spiritually is going to be significant when i obey God's commandments
God doesnt say something for no reason- His every word is pure gold and blessed is the person who takes heed
trust and obey becuse he loves God with all his heart, mind and soul
You know can be as sarcastic as you like- i am guessing you are- working on a spiritual is somehing devoted to Good- so it's not sinning
unless you are carrying logs alongside the elephants in Thailand (LOL)
My concern there will be a lot of well meaning christians who will ge the shock of their life on judgement day to find they have disobeyed the 7th day sabbath
keeping commandment of God- something they never checked into- necer considered it significant enough to find out - go to God in prayer
and they pay the price
Matt 7:22
22 Many 9christians)will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
People who have focusssed all their efforts heavily into ministry work - maybe even visting and helping orphans or evangelising- I am not saying this is bad-
indeed it's a good thing but at the same time ignoring God's sabbath commanment
These chrstians did many wonderful works yet what was the reply from the Lord
Matt 7: 23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How would you like such a reply from the Lord? The word "iniquity" is translated as lawlessness (not keeping God's law/commandments- ignoring the sabbath
will be a big one for most of the christians)
It's interesting that Jesus used the word "work" as in ye that work iniquity- so there is work involved in working lawlessness-
so in the case of the 7th day sabbath- ignoring it will mean that they are presumably keeping 1st day sunday- usually for 3 hrs
keeping sunday is ignoring the God's commandment of 7th day sabbath (turning their backs on Him) and keeping man's traditions- Sunday
Highly disrepectful and because it violates God's commandment, it becomes sin
Sin is a transgression of the law (1st John 3:4)
Mark just asked me whih church I go to - i dont belong to any one church
However if you have any questions on sabbath you can either ask me on gsc
or you can google it by typing your question or even the scripture verse and add a the
end of the senence united church of God. They are very helpful in answering sabbath related questions
and much nice than me (lol)
Gabe. There is no need to be sarcastic. I have already told you, personally, that I am really busy at the present time.
I have stated my own view and understanding on the current topic, several times, succinctly. You may find it helpful to read what others including myself have written, to gain understanding.
Please don't think that by your many words and protestations you are convincing anyone. Quite the contrary. You would do much better if you answered questions put to you (of which, genuine answers are there few) and said, succinctly, in few words, what it is you feel you need to say.
The tone of your posts is regrettably rather show-offish and it appears you think you, and you alone, have all the Bible knowledge and understanding, together with comprehensive understanding of some version of Greek, and the rest of us here have no knowledge or understanding, and are not entitled to any view at all. You think we are completely wrong. It may be that you are completely wrong, however. Time and again, people have presented thoughtful study against your own view, and you have dismissed them. That's not honest on your part.
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked…I John 2:3-6 NASB
I am curious – why would someone assume “His commandments” includes “7th day Sabbath keeping” ?
In a similar vein – if keeping the Sabbath was absolutely necessary to be in full compliance with “His commandments”, then where in the church epistles is that clearly specified?
From history and the scriptures we know there were Gentile (or non-Jewish) converts to Christianity - some of whom we may safely assume had no knowledge of the Jewish religion (laws, commandments, lifestyle, etc.)…and so…
Where in the church epistles does it stipulate a Gentile converting to Christianity must first be schooled in the Jewish religion as part of the process in changing whatever beliefs they may hold at the time?
Thank you TBone for the information about the NASB biblical version. In writing my biblical articles I also quote from scriptures, while teaching or writing comments about the scriptures. I have not used the NASB version, however I will at least consider using this version now for scriptural quotes. From what you wrote and the following it looks like I should quote a few of the scriptures for at least a few of my articles. My goal is to write a complete biblical teaching book. Here is copy right information for the NASB that I looked up on the internet.
Permission to Quote the NASB®
The text of the New American Standard Bible® may be quoted and/or reprinted up to and inclusive of one thousand (1,000) verses without express written permission of The Lockman Foundation, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 50% of the total work in which they are quoted.
Here is a link to the biblical study software that I use when writing articles, which does include NASB along with many other biblical versions. This software saves times and helps with research.
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Twinky
I think Waxit has left the building.
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Rocky
Of course he'd be welcome back.
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Waxit
ok
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modcat5
Welcome back.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with our "fair use" policy.
Carry on.
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Waxit
I have already replied with a detailed explanation of why Noah kept the sabbath
although there is no specific verse in the bible- It's a case of putting 2 and 2 together
The word "oxygen" is never mentioned in the bible but you know they must have been breathing oxygen
I dont know whether you have read it and I am wondering why you havent bothered to reply
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waysider
This is flawed logic.
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Stayed Too Long
These verses have been put to you by a number of posters. Yet you refuse to address them....they are an elephant in the room you have chosen to ignore.
According to Galatians 4:9-10, you have returned to the bondage you claim to want to get others out of. It appears you are engulfed in Bondage again. 2 Peter 2:22 is where you are in your life according to the Word of God:
2 Peter 2:22, "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
You may not realize it, but you are not biblically in a place most Christians want to reside in.
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Rocky
Talk about double standards.
Didn't you grouse about and demand that since no one (supposedly) had refuted you "with a specific bible verse" you wouldn't consider anyone else's view on the subject?
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T-Bone
Stayed Too Long, you’ve got me thinking again about Waxit’s explicit demand for proof (specifically one verse that shows Sabbath keeping is now insignificant) – an insistent request which he has made several times. And as several Grease Spotters have pointed out – his demand has been met several times over. So I was wondering why he hasn’t bothered to counter-argue the verses that folks have quoted to him.
Waxit is very passionate and persistent – two qualities I always respect and admire – and so I have to say, by now this thread has grown on me…maybe from a human interest angle…I am always fascinated by what motivates people and why we think the way we do (I’ll say more on why I’m interested in a minute).
== == == ==
Waxit, I think it’s safe to say we’ve come to some sort of an impasse – so I was wondering if you would be willing to change it up a little.
If you set aside the differences in doctrine and belief systems – there’s something to be said for mutual respect – recognizing that we all have some valuable and important contributions to make at Grease Spot.
Since we seem to be getting nowhere in this formal debate involving two sides of keeping the Sabbath ( probably because there has not been a common agreement of the rules) – I propose a short detour, and then perhaps we can get back on track with the debate and hopefully all of us mutually agreeing to some rules.
How about a demilitarized zone of discussion – where using words and even scripture as weapons are not allowed…I have a personal stake in this, by the way – my sister-in-law used to be in TWI but now is involved with Seventh-Day Adventists – we do have our differences theologically, of course but I tend to humanize things when I can’t relate to something she believes or have a hard time understanding why she believes that way. We do make some headway when we both share why we feel so strongly about something – this gets more into the deep core beliefs that motivate us…I will say this – I don’t agree with her on the importance of keeping the Sabbath – but I do admire her devotion to the things that she believes are a spiritual priority.
Beliefs are our mental map to make sense of and navigate through our complex world – and this mental map is somewhat intertwined with how we define ourselves – which is probably why it’s so hard to change what we believe about certain things….Well, since nobody has a perfectly accurate mental map I think it can be helpful at times to “compare notes” and even speak freely, without hiding feelings.
Waxit, what I am asking is why do you feel keeping the Sabbath is so important to you?
Can you say why it is so important without referring to scripture?
So to be clear - I am not asking you for any scripture references nor am I asking why you think it should be important to everyone else.
For something to be important to you – it must have changed your life. How?
By the way, there are no wrong answers because of the way I’ve asked the questions.
Edited by T-BoneHow do you feel about revisions?
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Mark Sanguinetti
With Saturday as the day of Sabbath according to what Waxit believes. Perhaps I was not sinning last night (Friday) as I got much needed sleep and rest for Saturday. However, after sleeping last night (Friday/Saturday after 12:00 midnight) I woke up very early in the morning and instead of sleeping again I WORKED by editing one of my biblical articles titled "The Authority and Supremacy of Jesus Christ". Perhaps according to Waxit and the day of Sabbath that I was SINNING while working to edit one of my biblical articles on Saturday. I am sorry church that Waxit goes to for working on a biblical article on Saturday. Perhaps I should especially apologize because this article was not about the importance of the day of Sabbath. Instead the article shows the authority and supremacy of Jesus Christ. However, perhaps after sinning, while working on a biblical article, I went back to sleep this Saturday morning and slept again for a few hours. Perhaps I got nine hours of sleep last night and this morning. Is that enough sleep on the Sabbath day of rest to at least lessen my sinful work? Of course, Jesus Christ was clearly accused of also working on the Sabbath day by the scribes and Pharisees when he helped people. So perhaps if I get accused of working on a biblical article on the Sabbath day. I am getting compared to Jesus Christ. If I got accused of this then perhaps I would say to my accusers; "Sorry I am not Jesus Christ. I am simply one of his followers. I hope this is OK."
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Twinky
I asked him this ages ago. He says it's because it's important to keep God's law. I don't know why this particular one of God's many laws is particularly important, especially given the explicit Bible direction that Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness.
Be good if you got an answer.
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T-Bone
That’s right, I remember that now…but anyway, I wanted to reboot the conversation…think I got off on the wrong foot with Waxit…I do tend to come on strong sometimes…just trying to make amends for the way I come across…Waxit, if you happen to read this, I beg your pardon.
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Waxit
Hi Twinky- Long time no hear from you- Can we still be friends?
Sure I would be glad to answer you
I am sorry to say that this is not the explicit direction of the bible and the kjv translators sometimes get their noses out of joint by
incorrectly translating this verse. I will explain to you why below
Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The word "end" in Romans 10:4 is the greek word "telos" which means the aim or purpose of a thing
You could say the end purpose. Because the kjv translators who by the way put the word "easter" in the book of Acts
which i thought was hilarious have decided in their infinite wisdom to just put the word "end" there instead of what Paul intended
to convey.
The Greek word telos, translated “end” in Romans 10:4, can convey variations in meaning, including “ ‘the aim or purpose’ of a thing” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “End, Ending”). This is very clear in the New King James Version’s rendering of 1 Timothy 1:5, where telos is properly translated as purpose in the clause “the purpose of the commandment is love.” In this same verse the NRSV translates telos as “aim” and the NIV renders it as “goal.”
In modern terms, it will be like a bank officewr asking a bank loan applicant:
To what end or purpose , are you making this bank loan application
What Paul is saying here in Romans 10:4 by using " telos" -aim or purpose of something is to say:
For Christ is the aim or purpose (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
So it's not as you say Christ is the end of the law for righteousness- which is what the KJV translators want you to believe
They are doing the translations according to what they think is correct and this comes from their "end of the law" mindset
and so they found the opporunity to tamper with the word of God (they will get spanked one day because God said dont add or substract from the word
The KJV transklators want you to believe what they want you to believe where they can get to believe- (very misleading- another of their easter insertions)
Please do check out the greek interlinear and you will uncover a lot of the mistakes.
How would you like them to be responsible for road signs for the whole of London-? You might end up in Scotland.
Spiritually this is what they are doing. Leading people astray
There's one thing that I would like to bring up though and I hope people start taking notice of the fact that any anti law bible verse that you come up with
you are going to have problems explaining the pro or for the law bible verses. It's easy to say what about this and what about that but how you going to explain
the clear verse in Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
You can come up with any anti law bible verse to support your preference for not keeping the 7th day sabbath
and you will come up with the road block at highway Rom 3:31. So how are you going to handle that?
Please dont think I am ignoring you because I dont have the answers, if that's what you are thinking
You guys can come with any anti law/sabbath bible verse and I will be explain it to you even if I have to do some research
This bible really concerns me for people who think it is ok to ignore God's 7th day sabbath keeping commandment
and this is what God is saying in James 2:10-11 (not what I am saying). Hopefully you will meditate on this- it's serious if you are a true christian believer
Pray to God for confirmation of sabbath keeping commandment (You can throw darts at me or buns- but I love you and pray you will take heed
James 2:10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point (ignore the 7th day sabbath), he is guilty of all.( all the other 9 commandments
stealing, adultery, lying......etc)
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
yet if thou ignore the 7th day sabbath thou art become a transgressor of the law
1 John 3:4 (This caught my attention)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
It happens every week for most christians and its sad because these well meaning
christians are lovely people
Jesus Christ has rescued us from the law of sin and death once
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
but they keep sinning every week by ignoring the 7th day sabbath
God still loves them and I love them too but God is also a God of justice
Romans 6 For the wages of sin is death
Regards
Waxit
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer.
The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time, or season.
We are to do as Jesus did, in heart, soul, mind, and strength. That means: loving and obeying God. And then, loving our neighbours (=those around us, those we come into contact with).
It doesn't mean: following all the ritual that Jesus followed, and much of which he poo-poo'd.
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T-Bone
Taking another look at the verses that Waxit mentioned – I have a different take – our faith in Christ enables us to go far and above what any feeble attempts at just abiding by the law will hope to accomplish.
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”…Romans 10: 1-13 NASB
It seems rather obvious to me that Paul is saying the aim of what Christ did was to put an end to a person’s futile attempts at righteousness by vain efforts to obey the law – instead a much easier solution is presented – simply a belief in Christ as Lord and Savior (verses 8-13).
== == == ==
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law……Romans 3: 21-31 NASB
Paul is not disparaging or belittling the law here – but rather underscores the purpose of the law and how faith fulfills that purpose. Paul develops this further in chapters 6 & 7. If one thinks about the impetus of the law – to provide a means to pay for the penalty of infractions and to show our inability to obey God’s righteous demands - and ultimately to drive us to Christ - ( see But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal. 3: 23-25 NASB). By our faith in Christ (accepting him who paid the price for our sins and consequently we've been given the capacity to obey God from the heart – see Romans 8:3, 4) we “establish” - histémi in the Greek – establish, uphold, set in balance, initiate, institute – the law. When I think of “set in balance” I picture the different elements of the law are in correct proportions – think of Jesus' words in Matthew 23: 23, 24 NASB: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. ..And if you remember back in Matthew 22: 34-40 Jesus revealed the fulcrum – the pivot point – that upon which the whole law rests – it’s love for God and neighbor. Our faith in Christ enables us to act with genuine love – which I think is the guiding principle in Romans 14, showing Christ’s power to bring together dissimilar people ( some with concern for certain details of the law and others who have no such concern for the details or the ceremony of the law, or may not even have any knowledge of the law) into genuine unity.
== == == ==
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment…James 2:8- 13 NASB
It doesn’t seem to me James is saying if you violate one commandment, you violate them all. James refers to the “royal law” in v.8. Perhaps a better translation might be the supreme law – i.e. the law above all other laws – which James clarifies in the same verse – when he is says “the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”. That command along with the first command to love God summarizes all the law and the prophets (Matt. 22:36-40; Rom. 13:8-10). It seems to me what James means by saying you violate one command then you violate them all – is that you are in effect actually breaking the linchpin that holds the whole law together – love for God and neighbor.
Or perhaps James is suggesting a domino effect - a cumulative effect produced when one event initiates a succession of similar events. Imagine if the law was a beautiful stained glass window, breaking even one piece of the window compromises the structure and can cause additional issues. Or if the lead that holds the pieces together begins to fatigue more pressure is placed on the glass and could cause breaks in the glass.
I don’t think the law of God is a bunch of disjointed directives but a unified code of conduct that requires love for God and neighbor in order to be in full compliance . James is saying you fulfill the supreme law by loving your neighbor as yourself - as he says in verse 8 "you are doing well".
Note verse 12 "the law of liberty"... James 1:25 also mentions the law of liberty and equates it with the perfect law. Maybe I’m a little off base here – but I tend to look at the entire Bible as God’s law – rules for living – - and for convenience sake they've been condensed
it's just two big ones now, love God and neighbor - and with faith in Christ, abiding by those rules is liberating – as in freedom from the bondage of sin (see Rom. 7 & 8).
== == = ==
To round off my post – I'm switching gears from what Paul said about fulfilling the law of love by faith and now taking a look at I Timothy where Paul gets into dealing with those who want to be teachers of the law and eclipse the Christian life based on faith in what Christ has accomplished for us.
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions…I Timothy 1: 3- 7 NASB
Verse 5 says “the goal of our instruction” – the word “our” is absent from the interlinear text – but I believe it is well supplied – for it seems tied to verse 3 where Paul said to Timothy to remain at Ephesus and instruct certain men. “Instruct” and “instruction” in both verses is from a form of the same Greek word – paraggello – and basically means to give an authorized command. Paul says that the goal of his instruction (his directives as authorized by God warning of erroneous doctrines, myths, speculation, fruitless discussions and to keep preaching of Christ the Savior, holding onto faith and a good conscience - see verses 8 - 20) is to engender love, help one keep a clear conscience, and develop genuine faith.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Mark Sanguinetti
With T-Bone quoting from the epistle of Romans from the NASB (New American Standard Bible). I wonder if Waxit will complain about this biblical version also? He previously complained about the King James Version that was written in the 1500s and specifically about this version for the epistle to the Romans. Yes the Romans were not under the Old Testament law. They had different laws. Hopefully they would at least through Jesus Christ see the importance of love. The translation work for the NASB was first published in 1963 and finished in 1971. A newer version was published in 1995. This looks like regular English so it should not be a problem for reading the content.
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Twinky
Like your post, T-Bone.
My "Passion Bible" (HCSB) gives Rom 10: as this:
Reading through to the end of this section of Romans, I'm really happy that "No one who believes on Him (or, on God) will be put to shame" (HSCB, quoting Is 28:16, rather than believing in some laws given to a different group of people in a different time. It seems easier to believe on God, on Jesus, on the direct promises of salvation. And then, our actions and good deeds flow as an outworking of our faith, our believing on Him (James 2, among other places).
Our actions and good deeds might include sabbath-keeping, among other things; having a rest from our worldly work, setting aside those things for fellowship with God and God's people - very worthwhile, to set aside "A" day, any day, to do this.
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T-Bone
Hi Mark,
for study purposes I often use the NASB…as A User’s Guide to Bible Translations by David Dewey states on page 156, “The NASB is a literal translation, far more than the AV/KJV to the point of being wooden. It is considerably more form-driven than even the RSV, and in the Old Testament far more firmly rejects any conjectural readings or deviations from the traditionally accepted Hebrew text.” …and on page 34 & 36, “A form-driven translation is molded by the structure and style of the original language. Its aim is to come as close to the original as can be achieved in an English rendering. Where possible (depending on just how rigidly this translation philosophy is applied) a form-driven version will keep to the simple dictionary definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words being translated as well as the word order and grammatical structures of the original…Often a form-driven rendering is all that is needed to produce a perfectly sensible and natural translation.”
Dewey talks about the Bible coming from a distant past and remote culture – and unless you are prepared to learn these ancient languages and culture, you must use a translation to access the Word of God. I am a bit of a study-bug though not as much as I was a few years ago. I have something like 27 translations, a couple of interlinears and a Greek New Testament on my bookshelf. For just plain reading enjoyment I use the NIV (which strives for a balance between form-driven and meaning-driven). I do like some of the newer translations and I’m waiting for The Passion to come out with a complete Old and New Testament version.
Whenever I get down to the nitty gritty in a doctrinal study – my go-to translation is often the NASB just because of the good cross-reference system featured in some editions - like the NASB reference edition .
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Waxit
Hi Twinky
Really nice of you to drop in
You are right in saying get to know Jesus Christ- absolutely
But how can you get to know or to be sure you are on the right track in knowing Jesus Christ?
Consider the following bible verse- maybe you might not have come across this verse- what do you think?
it certainly does not look like Jesus is pooh poohing the sabbath (part of the 10 commandments)
1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (includes 7th day Sabbath keeping -Thank you very much)
(also includes all of the commandments of love, mercy, truth and teachings of Jesus Christ)
I think you are jumping to conclusions about sabbath being a ritual- there is no magic formula that needs to be observed to make it into a ritual like the jews wanted
Sabbath is not a ritual - It's a commandment of God- you can choose to spend sabbath whatever way you like as long as it is rest, worship God, teaching,
fellowship, meditation- avoid buying and selling- it's a special time devoted to time with God- if you think that is a ritual rather than quality time- then all the best to you
Definiition of ritual:
Description
A ritual is a sequence of activities involving gestures, words, actions, or objects, performed in a sequestered place and according to a set sequence. Rituals may be prescribed by the traditions of a community, including a religious community. WikipediaI dont know about your sunday service- from the above definition, the sabbath that i observe according to the bible doesnt require me to follow the above regulations
So when you go to your sunday service in your local community at a set time and date for your weekly service- arent you observing set date and time??
but when you keep the 7th day sabbath commanded by God, that suddenly it becomes a ritual to you
If you think that sabbath is a artificial ritual- as opposed to what God commands then obviously you are going to pooh pooh it yourself
and you made a preety wild statement regarding knowing Jesus Christ- "It doesn't mean: following all the ritual that Jesus followed, and much of which he poo-poo'd"
I just need some clarification on this -
Are you equating the "ritual" in the above statement you made to mean "keeping of the sabbath"
or are you meaning just the way that "jews might have kissed each other on the cheeks" - Looks like you have got your wires crossed here
Can you give me one bible verse where Jesus Christ poo pood the keeping of the 7th day sabbath? just one
The pharisees who were ritualised (lol) tried to get the Lord to agree to their rituals but he pretty much told them to take a hike
Look at what he is saying Twinky again in regards to traditions of men- relate it to our modern day- when you keep the tradition of men then
you will likelyreject the commandments of God. Sunday service weekly gathering is the tradition of men
and I am quoting scripture not just giving my own opinions without any scripture back up
In reading Mark 7:9, it's quite logical to assume that if Jesus Christ was addressing main line christianity,
he would be saying. Full well ye reject the 7th day Sabbath (part of the 10 commandments) that ye may keep your own traditional ist day-sunday keeping
Mark 7:9
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(modern day sunday keeping service- introduced by the rc religion)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition
(modern day sunday keeping service- tradition introduced by the rc religion)
Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth.
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been been "revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."
(man made tradition)
Whatever you want to say Twinky, you cannot escape the fact that 7th day sabbath is part of the 10 commandments and commanded by God /Jesus Christ
So which one of the above commandments that relates to God , do you want to omit because you think it's a ritual
as opposed to God's express commandment
Did you read the part where I stated that Ignoring the 7th day sabbath is just as bad as lying, stealing and worshipping other Gods
Kindly explain 2 bible verses if you don't mind- i would really appreciate it- there might be something that I can learn from you
Firstly Romans 3:31
Rom
31 Do we then make void the law through faith?????? God forbid: yea, we establish the law!!!!!!
Secondly James 2: 10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point (sabbath keeping), he is guilty of all. (guilty of the rest of the 9 commandments)
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (yet ignore the 7th day sabbath)
From the bible verses I have share above how can we know Jesus Christ better if we are sinning every week by ignoring the 7th day sabbath and being transgressors of the law? Matthew 7:22
Have you seriously thought about this before Twinky?
Hopefully you wont be mad at me for sharing the truth and I will still love you and pray for you even if you decide to throw buns at me
Edited by WaxitProverbs 27:6
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Regards
Waxit
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you TBone for the information about the NASB biblical version. In writing my biblical articles I also quote from scriptures, while teaching or writing comments about the scriptures. I have not used the NASB version, however I will at least consider using this version now for scriptural quotes. From what you wrote and the following it looks like I should quote a few of the scriptures for at least a few of my articles. My goal is to write a complete biblical teaching book. Here is copy right information for the NASB that I looked up on the internet.
Permission to Quote the NASB®
The text of the New American Standard Bible® may be quoted and/or reprinted up to and inclusive of one thousand (1,000) verses without express written permission of The Lockman Foundation, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for more than 50% of the total work in which they are quoted.
http://www.lockman.org/tlf/copyright.php
Here is a link to the biblical study software that I use when writing articles, which does include NASB along with many other biblical versions. This software saves times and helps with research.
http://www.biblesoft.com/
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Waxit
Hi Mark
The 7th day sabbath was created for man by God (Sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. The 7th sabbath day was designed for rest physically and
rest spiritually devoted to God as a day of rest, worship God, meditation and fellowship, teaching -
Why it's a special day- is that it is the only only day that hs been set aside (sanctified) and hallowed- you may not feel anything special on that day
But what is spiritual, you cannot feel, taste or smell- it comes down wheher you believe God or not.
It's like the God of the universe is inviting you to a quality time with Him and He has enforced it because he doesnt want you to miss out and the blessings
The amazing thing is He has made keeping the 7th day sabbaath as part of the 10 commandments and he keeping of it runs along as the same vein of importance
as not lying, stealing or committing adultery etc.
Whom am i argue with God. I love Him very much and I trust when He tells me something and diligently observe it and keep it when it is a commandment
I know the long term payoff spiritually is going to be significant when i obey God's commandments
God doesnt say something for no reason- His every word is pure gold and blessed is the person who takes heed
trust and obey becuse he loves God with all his heart, mind and soul
You know can be as sarcastic as you like- i am guessing you are- working on a spiritual is somehing devoted to Good- so it's not sinning
unless you are carrying logs alongside the elephants in Thailand (LOL)
My concern there will be a lot of well meaning christians who will ge the shock of their life on judgement day to find they have disobeyed the 7th day sabbath
keeping commandment of God- something they never checked into- necer considered it significant enough to find out - go to God in prayer
and they pay the price
Matt 7:22
22 Many 9christians)will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
People who have focusssed all their efforts heavily into ministry work - maybe even visting and helping orphans or evangelising- I am not saying this is bad-
indeed it's a good thing but at the same time ignoring God's sabbath commanment
These chrstians did many wonderful works yet what was the reply from the Lord
Matt 7: 23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How would you like such a reply from the Lord? The word "iniquity" is translated as lawlessness (not keeping God's law/commandments- ignoring the sabbath
will be a big one for most of the christians)
It's interesting that Jesus used the word "work" as in ye that work iniquity- so there is work involved in working lawlessness-
so in the case of the 7th day sabbath- ignoring it will mean that they are presumably keeping 1st day sunday- usually for 3 hrs
keeping sunday is ignoring the God's commandment of 7th day sabbath (turning their backs on Him) and keeping man's traditions- Sunday
Highly disrepectful and because it violates God's commandment, it becomes sin
Sin is a transgression of the law (1st John 3:4)
Mark just asked me whih church I go to - i dont belong to any one church
However if you have any questions on sabbath you can either ask me on gsc
or you can google it by typing your question or even the scripture verse and add a the
end of the senence united church of God. They are very helpful in answering sabbath related questions
and much nice than me (lol)
Much love in Christ
Waxit
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Twinky
Gabe. There is no need to be sarcastic. I have already told you, personally, that I am really busy at the present time.
I have stated my own view and understanding on the current topic, several times, succinctly. You may find it helpful to read what others including myself have written, to gain understanding.
Please don't think that by your many words and protestations you are convincing anyone. Quite the contrary. You would do much better if you answered questions put to you (of which, genuine answers are there few) and said, succinctly, in few words, what it is you feel you need to say.
The tone of your posts is regrettably rather show-offish and it appears you think you, and you alone, have all the Bible knowledge and understanding, together with comprehensive understanding of some version of Greek, and the rest of us here have no knowledge or understanding, and are not entitled to any view at all. You think we are completely wrong. It may be that you are completely wrong, however. Time and again, people have presented thoughtful study against your own view, and you have dismissed them. That's not honest on your part.
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T-Bone
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked…I John 2:3-6 NASB
I am curious – why would someone assume “His commandments” includes “7th day Sabbath keeping” ?
In a similar vein – if keeping the Sabbath was absolutely necessary to be in full compliance with “His commandments”, then where in the church epistles is that clearly specified?
From history and the scriptures we know there were Gentile (or non-Jewish) converts to Christianity - some of whom we may safely assume had no knowledge of the Jewish religion (laws, commandments, lifestyle, etc.)…and so…
Where in the church epistles does it stipulate a Gentile converting to Christianity must first be schooled in the Jewish religion as part of the process in changing whatever beliefs they may hold at the time?
Bonus feature – check out Paul the Apostle and Jewish Christianity
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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T-Bone
Thanks for those links, Mark...which series do you have? Professional, Discipleship, or Discovery?
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