Let's give Waxit the benefit of the doubt (again.) Waxit may not understand the difference between dumping a link and assigning homework with including your source.
A) This is not recommended on the GSC....
"The answer to your questions is on www dot website A dot com, and if you want to understand, you'll read there."
That's not recommended because it's not DISCUSSION. It's dumping a link and avoiding discussion. It's assigning homework and pretending you discussed something.
B) This is recommended on the GSC...
" The answer to your question is explored fully on www dot specific page dot org, and I'll post the important point here right now...."
That's supplying your source, which is recommended for a number of reasons, while still having the discussion here in the discussion forum.
C) This is not recommended on the GSC...
" I have a source for my comments, but I'm going to keep it my little secret."
People can't see if you're representing it fairly, they can't check the context, and they can't vet the sources. They know you said it, and you have no proof you didn't originate it. Someone once accidentally gave a bad misquote. vpw never played professional basketball. What he did was INSINUATE (suggest, make leading comments, imply) that he played for the Sheboygan Redskins. His actual words in TW-LiL were that he was "involved with the Sheboygan Redskins." That's incredibly vague. Was he their designated driver? Was he their waterboy? Did he work part-time where they practiced? Did he buy them ice cream when they won games? The idea was that people would THINK he played for them without him actually SAYING he did. It was deceptive and dishonest, but legal (although unethical and immoral.) Someone later said they had documentation he DID play for them. He didn't provide the link, but said to look for a search result for "Sheboygan Redskins in the NBL," When I went there, I found an article that claimed vpw had played for the Sheboygan Redskins. I checked their source. It was the single comment in TW-LiL. So, the proof his comment in TW-LiL meant that he played for the team was true was the comment he made in TW-LiL. That's NOT how documentation works, of course. But without posting the link, the poster ACCIDENTALLY failed to document, and led people to believe vpw didn't deceive people about that (although he actually decieved them.)
So, yes, post the link- but only in front of your actual discussion of that point. BTW, just cut-and-paste of what they said without your own words isn't "discussing", either.
Hm. Looks like Waxit's entire POV reads like this group's website, especially their Statement of Beliefs.. including judging us in keeping of New Moons and Sabbaths, and in respect of holy days.
I am sorry to say that I think Waxit has merely exchanged one cult for another, as must have been apparent to all here since his first post.
I had a rummage round the ccg website. I'm not impressed. Seems very controlling and really wants everyone in lockstep - or else!!
The "Christian Churches of God," or parent body World Wide Churches of God, stem from a man who himself was a maverick preacher/minister, kicked out of his own church, so decided to found another (of which he was the head honcho, of course). Would you believe it, he had a radio show, too. (The parallels are too scary!) "Armstrongism" is now widely denounced and the splinter groups from the break-up of Armstrong's original church have changed many of his original doctrines. Armstrong's set-up appears to have been an even more greedy organisation than TWI.
Here's a Wikipedia article (with all the usual inaccuracies, no doubt):
I'm sure Waxit will really hate me for saying the above. But yet, he is very much toeing the party line, and just as keen on this as he was when newly engaged with TWI.
You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough.
In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses?
Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Romans 14:5-6:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage.
You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough.
In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses?
Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Romans 14:5-6:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage.
Stayed Too Long
Hey STL, I appreciate your posts.
It now occurs to me that this thread presents a poignant case study in critical thinking... as well as demonstrating very well that there is safety in a multitude of counselors.
I am sorry to say that I think Waxit has merely exchanged one cult for another, as must have been apparent to all here since his first post.
I had a rummage round the ccg website. I'm not impressed. Seems very controlling and really wants everyone in lockstep - or else!!
The "Christian Churches of God," or parent body World Wide Churches of God, stem from a man who himself was a maverick preacher/minister, kicked out of his own church, so decided to found another (of which he was the head honcho, of course). Would you believe it, he had a radio show, too. (The parallels are too scary!) "Armstrongism" is now widely denounced and the splinter groups from the break-up of Armstrong's original church have changed many of his original doctrines. Armstrong's set-up appears to have been an even more greedy organisation than TWI.
Here's a Wikipedia article (with all the usual inaccuracies, no doubt):
I'm sure Waxit will really hate me for saying the above. But yet, he is very much toeing the party line, and just as keen on this as he was when newly engaged with TWI.
Twinky, maybe it’s because of how much we (as Grease Spotters – mostly ex-TWI folks) have healed, grown, and basically wised up…and have put some distance (in time, location, a change in attitudes and viewpoints) from TWI – we may forget how appealing a cult’s unique system of beliefs and practices can be. Besides love-bombing, cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort and they satisfy the human desire for absolute answers*. That is often the allure of a cult.
It could be the tantalizing tease of one-on-one witnessing and asking a new person you had brought to Twig “how would you like to be able to separate truth from error?” or “How would you like to have more harmony in the home? We’re running a class soon that enables you to do that. Would you like to sign up?”
On a bigger scale, TWI’s outreach programs have the same bait-and-switch strategy – advertise goods which are an apparent bargain but substituting inferior or more expensive goods. If you complain or whine about the class not living up to its great claims – you’re told the “alleged” inferiority of the product is due to your lack of believing – or maybe a leader says you should take the PFAL class a few more times and it will "gel for you"…or if you express some dissatisfaction of things not working in life the way you expected them to, a leader might try to convince you to sink more money into other classes or programs that will build your believing,,,develop your spiritual potential...whatever...I think this was like a circle of strife for me – a never ending personal struggle of me trying to make the claims come true … trying to get my believing in sync with what TWI said was available for me to believe for – it was a frustrating hamster wheel – going through the motions but getting nowhere.
cults promote an illusion of comfort:
“A comfort zone is a psychological state in which things feel familiar to a person and they are at ease and (perceive they are) in control of their environment, experiencing low levels of anxiety and stress.” from Wikipedia comfort zone
Cults are good at getting followers to believe they have the best handle on whatever happens in life – as long as they buy into whatever the leader says they should be thinking, saying or doing – everything will be okay. Earlier on this thread, Waxit said:
“ We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market. This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China” . (link to Waxit's post)
I happen to think that’s dogmatic overkill – but I guess that might be comforting to some folks who think that controlling the environment is best accomplished by strictly obeying the commandments of God.
cults claim they have the absolute answers:
A know-it-all is a person who acts as though he or she knows everything and who dismisses the opinions, comments, or suggestions of others. Cults fine tune that. Cults want you to think that if you stick with them and their dogma you’ll know everything that is absolutely essential to know…what about absolute truth?
“Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares There are also no square circles.” (Wikipedia absolute truth)
As far as absolute truth goes – I’m not interested in a philosophical discussion of what is absolute truth. But I know this much, a cult’s source of authority is whatever they say is the “absolute truth” –in other words, their dogma.
== == == ==
It would behoove us Grease Spotters to continue to develop more empathy and patience – in the spirit of the Grease Spot way . I think the “outreach” program here is NOT to increase Grease Spot membership or get folks to absorb or adopt a certain mindset, or toe the line…no, Grease Spot’s mission is simply to tell the other side of the story of one particular cult – The Way International. A powerful branch of Grease Spot’s “outreach” program is to encourage folks to think for themselves – no matter what group or groups or church folks may belong to now , or even if they don’t belong to any group or church at all.
It is rather comforting to think one has "arrived at The Truth."
Wow... yes, in a very limiting way, it can be. I remember a time when I used to think I had SO arrived at that place.
But now I'm much more comforted by the realization that there is SOOOOO much more available to know about God and about every aspect of life than we can ever learn. I think of Proverbs 2:1-5.
My son,if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of theLord and find the knowledge of God.
Twinky, maybe it’s because of how much we (as Grease Spotters – mostly ex-TWI folks) have healed, grown, and basically wised up…and have put some distance (in time, location, a change in attitudes and viewpoints) from TWI – we may forget how appealing a cult’s unique system of beliefs and practices can be. Besides love-bombing, cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort and they satisfy the human desire for absolute answers*.
T-Bone, I don't forget how confident I was (once I got hooked in) that my (cult's) view was the right one. The certainty. The confidence it gave me. How I thought I knew it all, compared with deeply committed Christians I worked with, who quietly and gently got on with their jobs (and tried to tone me down a bit). I was impressed by the (limited) knowledge and great passion of the TWI believers that I met.
To some extent, I can still be a bit like that. I might hear others praying (for example) - "If it be your will, God..." or where people pray, but don't seem to expect any outcome or answer to their prayer. I might think, "But just ask! Whatsoever you ask in my name, that I will do" and "Two or three gathered together..." and "It clearly states in the Bible that God's will is..." and then I have to shut myself up and tell myself to get off my high horse.
I do take a longer view now ("wised up," if you like, T-Bone). The instant healing we expected maybe isn't achieved in this life. I've seen too many awesome Christians with incurable diseases, end-stage cancers, etc. Sometimes, it's their fortitude to bear and their continuing confidence in the Lord that is their witness - not some miracle of healing. (I don't really want to get into the nitty-gritty of that, very off topic). It takes a lot of reading, listening, thinking, discussion with others of different views to honestly form one's own views. "Wisdom in a multitude of counsellors." We need to see how God works in the lives of others in a way that may not be happening in our own lives. We need to trust that God does work in the lives of others just as he works in our own. We need to be open to feel the peace of God that people radiate when they are walking closely with him. We need to be confident enough in God to be able to say, "I don't know." I don't know why this is (or isn't) happening. I don't have a pat answer. But I do know that God is in you, me, us, in this situation.
It is very far from us to judge another on what s/he believes, if they don't believe exactly like us. Whoever did? Shouldn't it be enough for us to develop our own relationship with God by learning from the Bible and from other people? And doing our best to cultivate the "fruit of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) in our own lives? I am not seeing judgmentalism, legalism, being dogmatic, and being critical, in that list.
7 hours ago, T-Bone said:
It would behoove us Grease Spotters to continue to develop more empathy and patience
As a group, there's been a lot of patience and kindness extended to Waxit. But he appears to be as immovable in this new set of beliefs as we were (and he was) when first in TWI and taking on PFAL. I don't know how long he has been involved with them. I do know he has a passion for the Lord. I hope that he (really) listens to the Lord - and to those who love him - not just give ear to some distant cult-master.
As a group, there's been a lot of patience and kindness extended to Waxit. But he appears to be as immovable in this new set of beliefs as we were (and he was) when first in TWI and taking on PFAL. I don't know how long he has been involved with them. I do know he has a passion for the Lord. I hope that he (really) listens to theLord-andto those who love him - not just give ear to some distant cult-master.
T-Bone, I don't forget how confident I was (once I got hooked in) that my (cult's) view was the right one. The certainty. The confidence it gave me. How I thought I knew it all, compared with deeply committed Christians I worked with, who quietly and gently got on with their jobs (and tried to tone me down a bit). I was impressed by the (limited) knowledge and great passion of the TWI believers that I met.
To some extent, I can still be a bit like that. I might hear others praying (for example) - "If it be your will, God..." or where people pray, but don't seem to expect any outcome or answer to their prayer. I might think, "But just ask! Whatsoever you ask in my name, that I will do" and "Two or three gathered together..." and "It clearly states in the Bible that God's will is..." and then I have to shut myself up and tell myself to get off my high horse.
I do take a longer view now ("wised up," if you like, T-Bone). The instant healing we expected maybe isn't achieved in this life. I've seen too many awesome Christians with incurable diseases, end-stage cancers, etc. Sometimes, it's their fortitude to bear and their continuing confidence in the Lord that is their witness - not some miracle of healing. (I don't really want to get into the nitty-gritty of that, very off topic). It takes a lot of reading, listening, thinking, discussion with others of different views to honestly form one's own views. "Wisdom in a multitude of counsellors." We need to see how God works in the lives of others in a way that may not be happening in our own lives. We need to trust that God does work in the lives of others just as he works in our own. We need to be open to feel the peace of God that people radiate when they are walking closely with him. We need to be confident enough in God to be able to say, "I don't know." I don't know why this is (or isn't) happening. I don't have a pat answer. But I do know that God is in you, me, us, in this situation.
It is very far from us to judge another on what s/he believes, if they don't believe exactly like us. Whoever did? Shouldn't it be enough for us to develop our own relationship with God by learning from the Bible and from other people? And doing our best to cultivate the "fruit of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) in our own lives? I am not seeing judgmentalism, legalism, being dogmatic, and being critical, in that list.
As a group, there's been a lot of patience and kindness extended to Waxit. But he appears to be as immovable in this new set of beliefs
as we were (and he was) when first in TWI and taking on PFAL.
I don't know how long he has been involved with them. I do know he has a passion for the Lord. I hope that he (really) listens to the Lord - and to those who love him - not just give ear to some distant cult-master.
Yes Twinky, I hear you loud and clear…as my manner is, I do tend to preach to the choir…and really, I say this stuff cuz I need to hear it…anyway I kinda need a breather here,,,get my second...third and fourth wind on this thread
you got me thinking though…maybe I did have in mind some fuzzy goofy idea of what I thought was gong on here – the unstoppable force of freedom of thought meeting an immovable dogmatic mindset – but I don’t think that’s how people actually relate to one another. As your post implies – people change. That got me to thinking there’s perhaps a certain “fluidity” to our makeup… what if there’s some force or inertia that drives us to explore and maybe even embrace certain ideas? Is that what philosophy, theology, logic, and faith are about? Just wondering…inquiring minds gots ta know…
Edited by T-Bone revision revolution is an update on the overthrow of evolution
Thanks for the link to the article - some interesting stuff - I'll have to read it a few more times - - one short paragraph grabbed my attention
"Lee McIntyre takes a similarly moralistic tone in his 2015 book Respecting Truth: Willful Ignorance in the Internet Age: “The real enemy of truth is not ignorance, doubt, or even disbelief,” he writes. “It is false knowledge.”
Am reading it now, it's an interesting article. "Pillow forts" of belief, heh heh. "... people wear information like team jerseys..."
There've been times on this thread when I wondered if Waxit was actually trying to convince himself. The CCG/WCG to which he appears to belong explicitly states on its FAQs that if you don't accept all their statement of beliefs, you can't be a member. And we all want to belong, somewhere.
(Sorry about the font change, copied the quote and can't change back to original font setting)
Am reading it now, it's an interesting article. "Pillow forts" of belief, heh heh. "...people wear information like team jerseys..."
There've been times on this thread when I wondered if Waxit was actually trying to convince himself. The CCG/WCG to which he appears to belong explicitly states on its FAQs that if you don't accept all their statement of beliefs, you can't be a member. And we all want to belong, somewhere.
Hey- sneering at us is part of his being part of another group. To be a part of the other "us", he needs "them" to look down on- which includes us. So, he'll continue to spin it that it was an honor to have been refuted here- and that he was never refuted here, and so on. But the whole "those who disagree with us don't want to know the truth" is CLASSIC cult talk. It's such a telltale sign of being in one, and I've heard it a number of times over the years.
I found this on a website about the Noahide laws- In keeping with gsc guidelines, I am not going to send you to the website_ if you want further info- let me know:
THIS IS NOT THE GSC RULE.
THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE GSC RULE.
Please minimize extensive quotes from another website, and make sure you provide the link/credit when you do!
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
WordWolf
Now, now.....
Let's give Waxit the benefit of the doubt (again.) Waxit may not understand the difference between dumping a link and assigning homework with including your source.
A) This is not recommended on the GSC....
"The answer to your questions is on www dot website A dot com, and if you want to understand, you'll read there."
That's not recommended because it's not DISCUSSION. It's dumping a link and avoiding discussion. It's assigning homework and pretending you discussed something.
B) This is recommended on the GSC...
" The answer to your question is explored fully on www dot specific page dot org, and I'll post the important point here right now...."
That's supplying your source, which is recommended for a number of reasons, while still having the discussion here in the discussion forum.
C) This is not recommended on the GSC...
" I have a source for my comments, but I'm going to keep it my little secret."
People can't see if you're representing it fairly, they can't check the context, and they can't vet the sources. They know you said it, and you have no proof you didn't originate it. Someone once accidentally gave a bad misquote. vpw never played professional basketball. What he did was INSINUATE (suggest, make leading comments, imply) that he played for the Sheboygan Redskins. His actual words in TW-LiL were that he was "involved with the Sheboygan Redskins." That's incredibly vague. Was he their designated driver? Was he their waterboy? Did he work part-time where they practiced? Did he buy them ice cream when they won games? The idea was that people would THINK he played for them without him actually SAYING he did. It was deceptive and dishonest, but legal (although unethical and immoral.) Someone later said they had documentation he DID play for them. He didn't provide the link, but said to look for a search result for "Sheboygan Redskins in the NBL," When I went there, I found an article that claimed vpw had played for the Sheboygan Redskins. I checked their source. It was the single comment in TW-LiL. So, the proof his comment in TW-LiL meant that he played for the team was true was the comment he made in TW-LiL. That's NOT how documentation works, of course. But without posting the link, the poster ACCIDENTALLY failed to document, and led people to believe vpw didn't deceive people about that (although he actually decieved them.)
So, yes, post the link- but only in front of your actual discussion of that point. BTW, just cut-and-paste of what they said without your own words isn't "discussing", either.
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WordWolf
Oh, and Waxit's source for he cut-and-paste on the Noahide Laws was from here:
http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p148.html?craw=y
http://www.ccg.org/english/S/a1.html
Hm. Looks like Waxit's entire POV reads like this group's website, especially their Statement of Beliefs.. including judging us in keeping of New Moons and Sabbaths, and in respect of holy days.
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T-Bone
Thanks WordWolf, good posts !
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Rocky
How generous of you, my Lord.
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Twinky
I am sorry to say that I think Waxit has merely exchanged one cult for another, as must have been apparent to all here since his first post.
I had a rummage round the ccg website. I'm not impressed. Seems very controlling and really wants everyone in lockstep - or else!!
The "Christian Churches of God," or parent body World Wide Churches of God, stem from a man who himself was a maverick preacher/minister, kicked out of his own church, so decided to found another (of which he was the head honcho, of course). Would you believe it, he had a radio show, too. (The parallels are too scary!) "Armstrongism" is now widely denounced and the splinter groups from the break-up of Armstrong's original church have changed many of his original doctrines. Armstrong's set-up appears to have been an even more greedy organisation than TWI.
Here's a Wikipedia article (with all the usual inaccuracies, no doubt):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrongism
and another very critical article from something that looks not unlike EmpireNet, but it doesn't appear linked:
http://jbeard.users.rapidnet.com/bdm/Cults/armstrong.htm
I'm sure Waxit will really hate me for saying the above. But yet, he is very much toeing the party line, and just as keen on this as he was when newly engaged with TWI.
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Rocky
It certainly was apparent even though it took quite a while to figure out which one.
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Stayed Too Long
Waxit:
You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough.
In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses?
Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Romans 14:5-6: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage.
Stayed Too Long
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Rocky
Hey STL, I appreciate your posts.
It now occurs to me that this thread presents a poignant case study in critical thinking... as well as demonstrating very well that there is safety in a multitude of counselors.
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T-Bone
Twinky, maybe it’s because of how much we (as Grease Spotters – mostly ex-TWI folks) have healed, grown, and basically wised up…and have put some distance (in time, location, a change in attitudes and viewpoints) from TWI – we may forget how appealing a cult’s unique system of beliefs and practices can be. Besides love-bombing, cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort and they satisfy the human desire for absolute answers*. That is often the allure of a cult.
It could be the tantalizing tease of one-on-one witnessing and asking a new person you had brought to Twig “how would you like to be able to separate truth from error?” or “How would you like to have more harmony in the home? We’re running a class soon that enables you to do that. Would you like to sign up?”
On a bigger scale, TWI’s outreach programs have the same bait-and-switch strategy – advertise goods which are an apparent bargain but substituting inferior or more expensive goods. If you complain or whine about the class not living up to its great claims – you’re told the “alleged” inferiority of the product is due to your lack of believing – or maybe a leader says you should take the PFAL class a few more times and it will "gel for you"…or if you express some dissatisfaction of things not working in life the way you expected them to, a leader might try to convince you to sink more money into other classes or programs that will build your believing,,,develop your spiritual potential...whatever...I think this was like a circle of strife for me – a never ending personal struggle of me trying to make the claims come true … trying to get my believing in sync with what TWI said was available for me to believe for – it was a frustrating hamster wheel – going through the motions but getting nowhere.
cults promote an illusion of comfort:
“A comfort zone is a psychological state in which things feel familiar to a person and they are at ease and (perceive they are) in control of their environment, experiencing low levels of anxiety and stress.” from Wikipedia comfort zone
Cults are good at getting followers to believe they have the best handle on whatever happens in life – as long as they buy into whatever the leader says they should be thinking, saying or doing – everything will be okay. Earlier on this thread, Waxit said:
“ We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market. This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China” . (link to Waxit's post)
I happen to think that’s dogmatic overkill – but I guess that might be comforting to some folks who think that controlling the environment is best accomplished by strictly obeying the commandments of God.
cults claim they have the absolute answers:
A know-it-all is a person who acts as though he or she knows everything and who dismisses the opinions, comments, or suggestions of others. Cults fine tune that. Cults want you to think that if you stick with them and their dogma you’ll know everything that is absolutely essential to know…what about absolute truth?
“Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares There are also no square circles.” (Wikipedia absolute truth)
As far as absolute truth goes – I’m not interested in a philosophical discussion of what is absolute truth. But I know this much, a cult’s source of authority is whatever they say is the “absolute truth” –in other words, their dogma.
== == == ==
It would behoove us Grease Spotters to continue to develop more empathy and patience – in the spirit of the Grease Spot way . I think the “outreach” program here is NOT to increase Grease Spot membership or get folks to absorb or adopt a certain mindset, or toe the line…no, Grease Spot’s mission is simply to tell the other side of the story of one particular cult – The Way International. A powerful branch of Grease Spot’s “outreach” program is to encourage folks to think for themselves – no matter what group or groups or church folks may belong to now , or even if they don’t belong to any group or church at all.
* What to Know about the psychology of cults
Edited by T-Boneformatting and bunch of editing
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WordWolf
It is rather comforting to think one has "arrived at The Truth."
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Rocky
Wow... yes, in a very limiting way, it can be. I remember a time when I used to think I had SO arrived at that place.
But now I'm much more comforted by the realization that there is SOOOOO much more available to know about God and about every aspect of life than we can ever learn. I think of Proverbs 2:1-5.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
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Twinky
T-Bone, I don't forget how confident I was (once I got hooked in) that my (cult's) view was the right one. The certainty. The confidence it gave me. How I thought I knew it all, compared with deeply committed Christians I worked with, who quietly and gently got on with their jobs (and tried to tone me down a bit). I was impressed by the (limited) knowledge and great passion of the TWI believers that I met.
To some extent, I can still be a bit like that. I might hear others praying (for example) - "If it be your will, God..." or where people pray, but don't seem to expect any outcome or answer to their prayer. I might think, "But just ask! Whatsoever you ask in my name, that I will do" and "Two or three gathered together..." and "It clearly states in the Bible that God's will is..." and then I have to shut myself up and tell myself to get off my high horse.
I do take a longer view now ("wised up," if you like, T-Bone). The instant healing we expected maybe isn't achieved in this life. I've seen too many awesome Christians with incurable diseases, end-stage cancers, etc. Sometimes, it's their fortitude to bear and their continuing confidence in the Lord that is their witness - not some miracle of healing. (I don't really want to get into the nitty-gritty of that, very off topic). It takes a lot of reading, listening, thinking, discussion with others of different views to honestly form one's own views. "Wisdom in a multitude of counsellors." We need to see how God works in the lives of others in a way that may not be happening in our own lives. We need to trust that God does work in the lives of others just as he works in our own. We need to be open to feel the peace of God that people radiate when they are walking closely with him. We need to be confident enough in God to be able to say, "I don't know." I don't know why this is (or isn't) happening. I don't have a pat answer. But I do know that God is in you, me, us, in this situation.
It is very far from us to judge another on what s/he believes, if they don't believe exactly like us. Whoever did? Shouldn't it be enough for us to develop our own relationship with God by learning from the Bible and from other people? And doing our best to cultivate the "fruit of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) in our own lives? I am not seeing judgmentalism, legalism, being dogmatic, and being critical, in that list.
As a group, there's been a lot of patience and kindness extended to Waxit. But he appears to be as immovable in this new set of beliefs as we were (and he was) when first in TWI and taking on PFAL. I don't know how long he has been involved with them. I do know he has a passion for the Lord. I hope that he (really) listens to the Lord - and to those who love him - not just give ear to some distant cult-master.
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Rocky
Twinky said:
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T-Bone
Yes Twinky, I hear you loud and clear…as my manner is, I do tend to preach to the choir…and really, I say this stuff cuz I need to hear it…anyway I kinda need a breather here,,,get my second...third and fourth wind on this thread
you got me thinking though…maybe I did have in mind some fuzzy goofy idea of what I thought was gong on here – the unstoppable force of freedom of thought meeting an immovable dogmatic mindset – but I don’t think that’s how people actually relate to one another. As your post implies – people change. That got me to thinking there’s perhaps a certain “fluidity” to our makeup… what if there’s some force or inertia that drives us to explore and maybe even embrace certain ideas? Is that what philosophy, theology, logic, and faith are about? Just wondering…inquiring minds gots ta know…
Edited by T-Bonerevision revolution is an update on the overthrow of evolution
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waysider
Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Only one...but the light bulb has to want to change.
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T-Bone
Good one, Waysider
What did the psychologist say to the light bulb in the ceiling fixture?
You’re already screwed up.
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Twinky
What did the cult-head say to the world?
"I've seen the light!"
What did Jesus say to the cult-head?
"I am the light."
Okay. Not so funny. Never was the court jester.
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T-Bone
A cult leader - wearing a baseball cap with a battery-powered blacklight bulb on top - walks into a bar and says “I am the light of the world”.
Coincidentally Jesus Christ walks into the bar about the same time and says “Beware if the light you have is darkness.”
Edited by T-BoneRevision 1.0
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Rocky
Meanwhile, back at the... something, however, this is not intended to be a joke.
From a 2017 article in The Atlantic titled "This Article Won't Change Your Mind":
"There are facts, and there are beliefs, and there are things you want so badly to believe that they become as facts to you."
This is most likely a large part of why our friend Waxit didn't see eye to eye with us, or us with him.
FWIW, That, in itself doesn't make Waxit's belief system necessarily sinister. But it also as such makes neither him nor us inherently correct.
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T-Bone
Thanks for the link to the article - some interesting stuff - I'll have to read it a few more times - - one short paragraph grabbed my attention
"Lee McIntyre takes a similarly moralistic tone in his 2015 book Respecting Truth: Willful Ignorance in the Internet Age: “The real enemy of truth is not ignorance, doubt, or even disbelief,” he writes. “It is false knowledge.”
like I said - interesting stuff...thanks Rocky
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Twinky
Am reading it now, it's an interesting article. "Pillow forts" of belief, heh heh. "... people wear information like team jerseys..."
There've been times on this thread when I wondered if Waxit was actually trying to convince himself. The CCG/WCG to which he appears to belong explicitly states on its FAQs that if you don't accept all their statement of beliefs, you can't be a member. And we all want to belong, somewhere.
(Sorry about the font change, copied the quote and can't change back to original font setting)
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Rocky
Totally tribal, for sure.
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WordWolf
Hey- sneering at us is part of his being part of another group. To be a part of the other "us", he needs "them" to look down on- which includes us. So, he'll continue to spin it that it was an honor to have been refuted here- and that he was never refuted here, and so on. But the whole "those who disagree with us don't want to know the truth" is CLASSIC cult talk. It's such a telltale sign of being in one, and I've heard it a number of times over the years.
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modcat5
THIS IS NOT THE GSC RULE.
THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE GSC RULE.
Please minimize extensive quotes from another website, and make sure you provide the link/credit when you do!
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