I am not seeking to be popular and
It's not a personal attack- it's just that they would value your "inquisitive" tendencies
and your "scientific" analysis on the word of God
You don't need any scientific evidence on this, just good old fashioned historical probing.
By the way, you may want to reexamine your post if you still don't understand why that was a personal attack.
You don't need any scientific evidence on this, just good old fashioned historical probing.
By the way, you may want to reexamine your post if you still don't understand why that was a personal attack.
I accidentally read your reply while looking at my own post- I wont make the same mistake again
Personally, i wouldnt waste my time on "historical probing" of Moses
Where will it stop? Will you also historical probe the existence of Jesus Christ and question everything
Moses cannot be a figment of man's imagination - Moses was not a mythical figure or a robot-
He delivered the 10 commandments to the children of Israel
This is my last message to you so dont bother replying as it will not get read
Moses cannot be a figment of man's imagination - Moses was not a mythical figure or a robot-
He delivered the 10 commandments to the children of Israel
This is my last message to you so dont bother replying as it will not get read
You're basing this on the assumption that the Bible is a historical record, which it is not.
Unless you are a moderator, please don't tell me what I can and can't respond to.
All of them have got nothing to do with sabbath keeping-
I have yet to get one bible verse (rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping
So No- It's not been met- I am sorry to disappoint you
Hi Waxit,
Do I have your attention?
Hopefully, you’ll read this post - since you’ve somehow managed to ignore my previous posts (as well as others quoting my posts), which were in response to your repeated requests of giving you a single Bible verse….. I could quote other verses in different books that also showthe "insignificanceof 7th day sabbath keeping" - but you did say just one verse ...so here it is, once again the “one bible verse (rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping”:
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath…Colossians 2:16 ESV
Edited by T-Bone revision and reformatting...ding ding! I've hit the daily double !!
All of them have got nothing to do with sabbath keeping- I have yet to get one bible verse
(rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping
So No- It's not been met- I am sorry to disappoint you
All of them definitely refuted the need for Sabbath-keeping. The 7th day Sabbath is entirely voluntary for Christians. Your demand has been met.
See how that didn't convince you?
You just saying "it's irrelevant" doesn't make it so, and refusing to actually discuss the verses and their chapters certainly weakens your case. We DISCUSS things here. If you want to convince anyone that those verses DON'T refute Sabbath-keeping, you'll need to actually ADDRESS and DISCUSS the verses. Automatic gainsaying of what people say wont do that. Saying "No it isn't!" doesn't convince anyone of anything.
Oh, and you definitely care what people think. You're annoyed they haven't fallen in to agree with you just because you declared your position correct by fiat. We may all hold wildly different opinions on a lot of things (as seen in this thread alone), but none of us has gotten on your bandwagon.
chapter and verse on why you think 7th day sabbath keeping is insignificant
The bible is the most accurate source- if your rightly divide the word of God ( with no errors, contradictions and everything fits)
Please dont link me with vpw or pfal- He was 5% ok and 95% horse manure
“The bible is the most accurate source- if your rightly divide the word of God ( with no errors, contradictions and everything fits)”
This is somewhat of a mental construct* – something formed within the mind. Mental constructs range from simple concepts,visualizations, and theories to vast wonderlands of make-believe.
Now as far as arguments* go, the crux of the matter, of course revolves around Waxit’s premises* - indicated by the word “if” – which pulls double-duty, there are two premises - - that is to say, if Waxit’s process of reasoning and hermeneutics are correct - free from error - in order to "rightly divide the word of God" * , and if also “the word of God with no errors, contradictions and everything fits “ actually does exist - other than in one's mind, as a mental construct – then, there is justification for the conclusion – "...the Bible is the most accurate source..." – then the argument is valid.
In effect, an argument is valid - having a sound basis in logic - if the truth of the premises logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion.
== == ==
For those following this thread you may have realized by now that Waxit’s feeble attempts at disputing the verses and logic offered by the opposing viewpoints are nothing more than a sham – a pretense. Waxit frequently claims by an unabashed pontificating decree to “rightly divide the word of God with no errors, contradictions and everything fits” but never actually addresses or discusses the inconsistent issues brought to his attention by Grease Spotters. An old saying is apropos here – either put up or shut up. I have had a tendency to think that’s he’s just being dishonest and lazy.
I think most Grease Spotters have tried to relate or connect to Waxit at some level – I know I have by reflecting on what a cult mindset was like - and that it takes a while to unravel. repair and heal from being subjected to the psychological manipulation, anti-intellectualism and the demands for blind obedience by a destructive cult...
But his obstinacy and his manner of being very unreasonable makes me wonder if there is more at play here. Is he a troll? Is he a typical follower of some church that vaunts the "greatness" of the book “God’s Plan for Mankind”? I mean do they all proselytize with such intensity like he does? Do they all display such a rabid passion for the Sabbath? inquiring minds want to know … I could be way off track on some of this stuff…It would be helpful if he addressed my concerns - I've been trying to be upfront and honest - but he ignores me - often I wind up having to refer to him in the third person...Which is kind of silly - in an open discussion on the internet – and he also tends to ignore others when they post something he doesn’t like. It’s like there’s two threads in one here. There’s the actual thread that you see and read here, with most folks trying to exchange and examine ideas about the Sabbath. Then there’s the imaginary thread in Waxit’s mind - which seems to be reflected in his posts – where he thinks (as WordWolf put it) he’s able to declare his position correct by fiat (a command or act of will that simply creates something without further effort ).
…Now what would be great is if Waxit would hit the brakes on stonewalling. Simply put stonewalling is a defense-mechanism that is often activated when one feels threatened or unsure of how to respond to conflict.
Sometimes folks stonewall because they fear a negative outcome. I wonder if Waxit was afraid that he didn't have what it takes to effectively proselytize...or was he worried he was not controversial enough to get a rise out of other Grease Spotters, or just afraid that he could not get folks to agree with him on Sabbath keeping? It doesn’t appear that he’s made any converts, or caused “civil unrest” at Grease Spot, or got folks to agree with him. If stonewalling is your game, that which you greatly feared has come upon you.
*premise - in logic is a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion; a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference.
*”rightly dividing the word of God” – the process should be clearly defined as to what are the correct specific steps for this operation; Often when posters throw around this term without being clear and specific on how they derived their interpretation of the Bible it might just mean they’re trying to pull a fast one – being lazy or dishonest, or both.
Edited by T-Bone revising, more formatting and typos...ding ding ding !!! the sometimes rare triple-dawg-fix-um-up
So how can God expect someone to "remember to keep the sabbath" in Ex 20:8, if it was not already being practised
So how come the children of Israel were already keeping the 7th day sabbath before being given the written law
Because the 7th day sabbath commandment was passed down from generation to generation.
From Adam & Eve -down to Noah (A preacher of righteousness) down to Abraham (One who obeyed God) down to Moses (Giver of the law)
- to children of Israel where it became a written law in the form of stone tablets in Exodus 31:18
I wonder, Waxit, if you are aware of what's known as the Noahide laws, or the seven laws of Noah?
According to the Talmud,[7] the rabbis agree that the seven laws were given to the sons of Noah. However, they disagree on precisely which laws were given to Adam and Eve. Six of the seven laws are exegetically derived from passages in Genesis,[9] with the seventh being the establishing of courts.
The earliest complete rabbinic version of the seven laws can be found in the Tosefta:[10]
Seven commandments were commanded of the sons of Noah:
If you would prefer from a Jewish background, try this, same laws, slightly different order, which expands rather more about each Law (from https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/). You can also google "laws of Noah" and bring up your own references.
Could you point out which one of these (the post above, and this one below) reflects your view that Noah observed the Sabbath? Maybe there is a verse in Genesis that says this explicitly? I can't recall one, off-hand, but it's a while since I read the story of Noah, and NT commentary on him.
Quote
God speaks to Noah and his children as they exit the ark: ‘Behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you.’ (Genesis 9:9)
Although rabbinic texts preserve various traditions about the details of this covenant, the reports the following:
The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)
The Laws
Do establish laws.
Don’t curse God.
Do not practice idolatry.
Do not engage in illicit sexuality.
Do not participate in bloodshed.
Do not rob.
Do not eat flesh from a living animal.
Edited by Twinky Still haven't got my "Quotes" right
All of them have got nothing to do with sabbath keeping- I have yet to get one bible verse
(rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping
So No- It's not been met- I am sorry to disappoint you
Most of the Christian world does not observe the Sabbath on Saturday. Why not get your message out to the rest of them, instead of butting heads with a few at GSC who you know have rejected your logic?
Visit the local Catholic Church to see if you can get the priest to close their doors on Sunday, and have mass exclusively on Saturday. If he won’t, keep going back week after week, showing him the Word, and start throwing insults st him.
Next hit the LDS church down the street. Pull all the missionaries aside and see if they will tell Salt Lake City to finally worship when God wants them too.
Don’t forget the Baptists. Do you think they will let you thump on their pulpit demanding the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday?
I doubt if you will have much success, and will soon be back at GSC trying to wrangle your dogma down our throats again.
Perhaps I was sinning by doing some work today, Saturday. But then maybe we are all sinning by not going to Waxit's church today, Saturday. Perhaps Waxit was even sinning because the church might be closed now because of the coronavirus and people not allowed now to sit side by side in public places. But then with the Sabbath being the day of rest. Perhaps I could be the largest sinner by working on another biblical article today to finalize my biblical book that I want to finish and get published. However, at least I got a lot of sleep with the start of Saturday after 12:00 midnight. I even slept until at least 10:00 am this morning. However, with me being in California and it being about 9:16 pm. for my time zone. Perhaps I am sinning now by writing instead of sleeping or resting. However, people in the Eastern time zone now. It is now considered Sunday at 12:16 am. Perhaps they are not sinning now by working.
A "day" Biblically is evening to evening. It's Friday night to Saturday night. So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday evening.
Not sure how time zones apply. Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time? In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time. Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.
A "day" Biblically is evening to evening. It's Friday night to Saturday night. So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday evening.
Not sure how time zones apply. Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time? In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time. Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.
WOW Twinky, you sound like a genius. But then maybe your two cats are helping you with this. Perhaps I should apologize for being a workaholic. However, I think there is no reason for Twinky to apologize for being a genius. But then maybe if I could pet Twinky's cats, I could be a genius too. However, in thinking while petting my head, perhaps in Old Testament times they had earlier evenings because they had no electrical lights to stay up late to see with. Therefore they went to sleep earlier than we do today, while perhaps waking up earlier than most of us do today.
Let's talk about the Noahide laws since we are talking about the 7th day sabbath keeping
being passed down the generations.
The Noahide laws are very general as you can see they are not specific
So what are you saying?
Are you saying that just because the sabbath has not been mentioned specifically - that means it has not been kept
Is that what you are saying?
I think it was considered "day" when a white thread could be distinguished from a black thread.
I've recently finished "online church" (it's a great service, with online coffee afterwards (=four or five breakout rooms) - nice to catch up with everybody.
I will worship the Lord more fully when I go out for a lovely long walk in the sunshine, in the countryside that my house is very close to. I shall admire all the beautiful new foliage in so many different colours, all the pretty flowers, all the bees and other critters; and I will be amazed once again at the luxuriously bountiful world the Lord has created. A friend will be joining me and we will walk in tandem (socially distancing).
Later, I may call on a few people who are socially isolating and have a little chat with them through their windows or open doors. Nice for shut-ins to see a real person and have a real chat. In the evening, I'll ring my mum (140 miles away, I can't visit).
It seems to me that that is a worthy, honourable way to worship the Lord and to respect the Sabbath.
Edited by Twinky An honourable WAY not honourable day (which is what I first put)
Let's talk about the Noahide laws since we are talking about the 7th day sabbath keeping
being passed down the generations.
The Noahide laws are very general as you can see they are not specific
So what are you saying?
Are you saying that just because the sabbath has not been mentioned specifically - that means it has not been kept
Is that what you are saying?
You said it, Waxit - that Noah kept the Sabbath. I'm asking for your evidence. It clearly wasn't a "commandment." Not for Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week.
A "day" Biblically is evening to evening. It's Friday night to Saturday night. So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday evening.
Not sure how time zones apply. Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time? In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time. Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.
Hi Twinky
You can observe sabbath according to the sunset time right where you live.
You do not have to observe Jerusalem time.
God has set up the 7th day sabbath from evening to evening where you are living
which is pretty good. What if a sabbath keeper is in the antartic- it wouldnt be very practical
for him or her to follow Jerusalem time would it? The way God has organized it works for everybody where they are
The 7th day sabbath is a special day in Heaven- God established it in Genesis.
So as the earth rotates around the sun- people all around the world will be worshipping and resting when sunset
drops in at their location.
So when you are resting and worshipping, fellowshipping and communing with God where you are living
you are in sync with heaven and God who estabilished it in the heavens.
Thats not to say -the rest of the week we forget God- we must be connecing with God 24/7
but God knows the hectic pressure we face in our everyday life so
He established a special 7th day sabbath at sunset and has specially given us a weekly set time audience with Him
Jesus Christ our Lord is also Lord of the Sabbath ( greek word shabat-rest & worship)
whether you recognise anything special happening or not on this day- He is doing a transformational work in our hearts
to prepare us for the return of the Lord - which is going to be happening any time - it's getting closer as we speak
Usually I find that after the sabbath- I enter the week with renewed vigour and the counsel and love of God strenghens me to be more
diligent in being in sync with God's word to have that relationship with God
You will notice that Hebrews 11 is a faith chapter. The heroes of the faith overcame tremendous challenges because they had
the relationship with God in loving Him and being obedient to His commandments
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (7th day Sabbath gives us the time and space to rest and diligently seek Him)
God has promised us that He will help overcome these very challenging times.
You can see that prophecies are coming to pass- pestilences, tribulations is on
the horizon and we can only endure and overcome by God's frace and mercy
Jesus Christ our Lord said in
John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (The Lord of the Sabbath) , and I
in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
There is good news for all those who love, trust and obey God
Romans 8:35-39 King James Version (KJV)
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
My comment to which you replied, Waxit, was very tongue-in-cheek.
You haven't bothered to reply to my comment on what YOU raised - about Noah.
Ok! I get it - you still think that sabbath is legalistic and that I am going to be
wearing the jewish kippa on my head. LOL
Sorry about not recognising your tongue in cheek-n sarcasm -
Dont think I an avoiding to answer or I havent bothered to answer you - It's just that I thought you had caught on- apparently not
and I was going to answer your noahide laws discovery
Are you referring to my reply that Sabbath was kept right from the start in the garden of eden
and was continued through Noah.
To which you came up with the Noahide laws that doesnt say anything about the sabbath?
and I didnt have any reply to this.
Am i on the right track?
Just want to make sure I get this correct before I answer you
Could you point out which one of these (the post above, and this one below) reflects your view that Noah observed the Sabbath? Maybe there is a verse in Genesis that says this explicitly? I can't recall one, off-hand, but it's a while since I read the story of Noah, and NT commentary on him.
For the THIRD TIME OF ASKING, Waxit : PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH? (Sabbath on any day of the week is acceptable).
If you can't state what verse, can you please explain which of the highlighted words you don't understand and I will see if I can find an alternative word.
It's your contention that Noah observed the Sabbath, I'm asking for the evidence.
1 hour ago, Twinky said:
You said it, Waxit - that Noah kept the Sabbath. I'm asking for your evidence. It clearly wasn't a "commandment." Not for Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week.
You said it, Waxit - that Noah kept the Sabbath. I'm asking for your evidence. It clearly wasn't a "commandment." Not for Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week.
4 hours ago, Twinky said:
For the THIRD TIME OF ASKING, Waxit : PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH? (Sabbath on any day of the week is acceptable).
As I recall some time ago Twinky, when i said the same question to Mark- you said I was insulting
Arent you insulting me right now by putting it in bold clear, capitalised words? Isnt this double standard?
So one rule for regulars and another for newcomers who are unpopular
BTW before I answer your question about Noah observing the sabbath- PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH? I would like to respond to you bringing up the Noahide laws first. the Noahide laws not biblical- it's devised by the Jews
The orthodox Jews fail to understand this verse below and are still "banging their heads against the wailing wall" (LOL) -:It doesnt get into their brain so they come up with ways to justify in some way the superiority of the jews and the inferiority of the gentiles in a subtle way
The reason the orthodox jews didnt mention (imo)about the sabbath is because they want to keep it for themselves and distinguish themselves as the "priveledged" class
Paul of course makes this very clear statement below
Romans 10:
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
I will ask the jews which part of that bible verse, don't they understand?
I found this on a website about the Noahide laws- In keeping with gsc guidelines, I am not going to send you to the website_ if you want further info- let me know:
The Noahide Laws
Edition 1.0 20160813-20160813)
The fraud of theNoahideLaws has been passed on the world to distance Judaism from Christianity and to deny the Laws of God coming from His nature and the absolute relationship of the Law and the Patriarchs and the extension of the Laws of God to mankind.Its purpose is to establish antinomianism and the fiction that God gave the law to Levites to place in Israel and that the Trinitarian Sunday worshipping church is not bound by it.
In regards to Noah observing the biblical sabbath, there is no direct chapter and verse which says he observed the sabbath
That doesn't mean He did not observe the 7th sabbath. There are many things in the bible that was understood to be done but never directly mentioned.
For instance in the whole book of Esther, there is not one mention of the word "God". Do you mean to tell me that Esther and Mordecai- the heroes that saved the jews from total annhilatiion, didnt worship the one true God because there is not chapter or verse in Esther that mentions the word "God"
So if you ask me for chapter and verse, there aint one but it's quite clearly understood that Esther and Mordecai were God's people who
had the favour of God, worshipped and obeyed God. God orchestrated the event to bring about perfect justice
So how do i know that Noah observed the sabbath without a specific chapter and verse. I have already mentioned regarding this before and I am going to mention it again for the second time- so you dont have to ask me for the fourth time for chapter and verse.
We know the sabbath was established in heaven by God in Gen 2: 1-3
In Exodus 20:8, This is first time sabbath is specifically mentioned and before the written law was given
to Moses on stone tablets. Notice what God is saying:
Exodus 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
I asked you this question previously but you have not bothered to answer me.
So I am asking you this question for the second time, How can God tell someone to remember to keep the Sabbath, if it was not already being kept"
How far back did it stretch? Well we know God started it in Gen 2:1-3
So obviously it must have stretched all the way back to Adam & Eve
So I am going to ask you another question for the second time- which you have not ignored otherwise you would have put 2 and 2 together
Why would God go to all that effort of creating the sabbath for man and let man ignore it. Hmmm! Yeah ok! It's an option- do what you like?
I dont think so- God doesnt do something for no reason- God is a perfect God. Once he establishes something, it is forever Hebrews 13:
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Did the God of the universe create the sabbath because he was bored and had nothing better to do??
Jesus spefically said in Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
So what reason is there for man (the christ line) right down from Adam & Eve to ignore the sabbath??
We know the sabbath was a spoken commandment that happened on the 7th day of creation and later it became a written commandment
in Exodus 31:18 written by the finger of God
Does that mean people before Moses can ignore the spoken commandments or laws just because there is no written bible verse for it until Exodus 31:18 about 1450 to 1400 bc
Just because there is no specific bible verse against money laundering- is it ok for a christian to do money laundering?
Well! you would say that in the bible it says we must obey the laws of the land- so what about the law of God on sabbath keeping
when he finished the work of creating the heavens and the earth
So how do I know Noah observed the sabbath? Because God said he was a righteous man- Gen 6:9 a preacher of righteousness
Gen 6:9
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Ezekiel 14:14
14Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Another man of God who kept the sabbath)
Notice the striking similarities between Noah and Abraham- They were counted righteous because they believed and walked in the ways (laws and commandments of God) against a generation which was largely disobedient and unrigheous
Psalm 19:9
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord (including the 7th day sabbath)
are true and righteous altogether.
Romans 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed (faith that results in obedience) God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
How can God call Noah righteous if he flouts the laws of God -which was passed down the generattions
I am sure that there would have been a seventh day of the week during Noah's time (No offence intended)
What would have happened if Noah didnt keep the 7th day Sabbath? It's disobedience against God's commandment Ex 20:8-11
God cannot call him righteous and without blame if Noah disobeyed the 7th day commandment keeping sabbath
You dont need a bible verse to figure that out
Why? Because of 1 John 3:
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (God's spoken or written word)
I am going to be polite. In light of everything that I have highlighted and explained, and does the above verse in 1 John 3 ring a bell to you as to why Noah, a preacher of righteousness and one that is called righteous by God would have definitely obeyed the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment of God started in Genesis 2:1-3
Well, I had a lovely Sunday - Sabbath, if you wish, or even if you don't wish - honouring and respecting God and doing exactly what I said I'd do. I am rested and refreshed (the purpose of the sabbath).
And I am loved and cared for by my God, the father of the Lord Jesus Christ, who sees me as his child. I know this, and I know it doesn't depend on what I do or don't do. It's not conditional upon what I do, whether I wear the right clothes, use the right words, pray 297 times a day or none, cover my head or don't - or observe a particular day above all others.
I believe Gal 3; do you? (Might be worth a re-read) You'll see that this very chapter tells us that we are redeemed from the law. Bought back from it. Not under law any more.
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
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Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
waysider
You don't need any scientific evidence on this, just good old fashioned historical probing.
By the way, you may want to reexamine your post if you still don't understand why that was a personal attack.
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Waxit
I accidentally read your reply while looking at my own post- I wont make the same mistake again
Personally, i wouldnt waste my time on "historical probing" of Moses
Where will it stop? Will you also historical probe the existence of Jesus Christ and question everything
Moses cannot be a figment of man's imagination - Moses was not a mythical figure or a robot-
He delivered the 10 commandments to the children of Israel
This is my last message to you so dont bother replying as it will not get read
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waysider
You're basing this on the assumption that the Bible is a historical record, which it is not.
Unless you are a moderator, please don't tell me what I can and can't respond to.
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T-Bone
Hi Waxit,
Do I have your attention?
Hopefully, you’ll read this post - since you’ve somehow managed to ignore my previous posts (as well as others quoting my posts), which were in response to your repeated requests of giving you a single Bible verse….. I could quote other verses in different books that also show the "insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping" - but you did say just one verse
...so here it is, once again the “one bible verse (rightly divided- no errors) that shows the insignificance of 7th day sabbath keeping”:
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath…Colossians 2:16 ESV
Edited by T-Bonerevision and reformatting...ding ding! I've hit the daily double !!
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WordWolf
All of them definitely refuted the need for Sabbath-keeping. The 7th day Sabbath is entirely voluntary for Christians. Your demand has been met.
See how that didn't convince you?
You just saying "it's irrelevant" doesn't make it so, and refusing to actually discuss the verses and their chapters certainly weakens your case. We DISCUSS things here. If you want to convince anyone that those verses DON'T refute Sabbath-keeping, you'll need to actually ADDRESS and DISCUSS the verses. Automatic gainsaying of what people say wont do that. Saying "No it isn't!" doesn't convince anyone of anything.
Oh, and you definitely care what people think. You're annoyed they haven't fallen in to agree with you just because you declared your position correct by fiat. We may all hold wildly different opinions on a lot of things (as seen in this thread alone), but none of us has gotten on your bandwagon.
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T-Bone
“The bible is the most accurate source- if your rightly divide the word of God ( with no errors, contradictions and everything fits)”
This is somewhat of a mental construct * – something formed within the mind. Mental constructs range from simple concepts,visualizations, and theories to vast wonderlands of make-believe.
Now as far as arguments* go, the crux of the matter, of course revolves around Waxit’s premises* - indicated by the word “if” – which pulls double-duty, there are two premises - - that is to say, if Waxit’s process of reasoning and hermeneutics are correct - free from error - in order to "rightly divide the word of God" * , and if also “the word of God with no errors, contradictions and everything fits “ actually does exist - other than in one's mind, as a mental construct – then, there is justification for the conclusion – "...the Bible is the most accurate source..." – then the argument is valid.
In effect, an argument is valid - having a sound basis in logic - if the truth of the premises logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion.
== == ==
For those following this thread you may have realized by now that Waxit’s feeble attempts at disputing the verses and logic offered by the opposing viewpoints are nothing more than a sham – a pretense. Waxit frequently claims by an unabashed pontificating decree to “rightly divide the word of God with no errors, contradictions and everything fits” but never actually addresses or discusses the inconsistent issues brought to his attention by Grease Spotters. An old saying is apropos here – either put up or shut up. I have had a tendency to think that’s he’s just being dishonest and lazy.
I think most Grease Spotters have tried to relate or connect to Waxit at some level – I know I have by reflecting on what a cult mindset was like - and that it takes a while to unravel. repair and heal from being subjected to the psychological manipulation, anti-intellectualism and the demands for blind obedience by a destructive cult...
But his obstinacy and his manner of being very unreasonable makes me wonder if there is more at play here. Is he a troll? Is he a typical follower of some church that vaunts the "greatness" of the book “God’s Plan for Mankind”? I mean do they all proselytize with such intensity like he does? Do they all display such a rabid passion for the Sabbath? inquiring minds want to know
… I could be way off track on some of this stuff…It would be helpful if he addressed my concerns - I've been trying to be upfront and honest - but he ignores me - often I wind up having to refer to him in the third person...Which is kind of silly - in an open discussion on the internet – and he also tends to ignore others when they post something he doesn’t like. It’s like there’s two threads in one here. There’s the actual thread that you see and read here, with most folks trying to exchange and examine ideas about the Sabbath. Then there’s the imaginary thread in Waxit’s mind - which seems to be reflected in his posts – where he thinks (as WordWolf put it) he’s able to declare his position correct by fiat (a command or act of will that simply creates something without further effort ).
…Now what would be great is if Waxit would hit the brakes on stonewalling. Simply put stonewalling is a defense-mechanism that is often activated when one feels threatened or unsure of how to respond to conflict.
Sometimes folks stonewall because they fear a negative outcome. I wonder if Waxit was afraid that he didn't have what it takes to effectively proselytize...or was he worried he was not controversial enough to get a rise out of other Grease Spotters, or just afraid that he could not get folks to agree with him on Sabbath keeping? It doesn’t appear that he’s made any converts, or caused “civil unrest” at Grease Spot, or got folks to agree with him. If stonewalling is your game, that which you greatly feared has come upon you.
== == ==
*mental construct – see Wiki construct (philosophy)
and also Wiki construct (psychology) and Wiki mental construct
*arguments - see arguments and inferences
*premise - in logic is a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion; a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference.
*”rightly dividing the word of God” – the process should be clearly defined as to what are the correct specific steps for this operation; Often when posters throw around this term without being clear and specific on how they derived their interpretation of the Bible it might just mean they’re trying to pull a fast one – being lazy or dishonest, or both.
Edited by T-Bonerevising, more formatting and typos...ding ding ding !!! the sometimes rare triple-dawg-fix-um-up
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Twinky
I wonder, Waxit, if you are aware of what's known as the Noahide laws, or the seven laws of Noah?
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
Edited by TwinkyGot my quotes all mixed up
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Twinky
Above post continues:
If you would prefer from a Jewish background, try this, same laws, slightly different order, which expands rather more about each Law (from https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/). You can also google "laws of Noah" and bring up your own references.
Could you point out which one of these (the post above, and this one below) reflects your view that Noah observed the Sabbath? Maybe there is a verse in Genesis that says this explicitly? I can't recall one, off-hand, but it's a while since I read the story of Noah, and NT commentary on him.
Edited by TwinkyStill haven't got my "Quotes" right
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Rocky
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:15
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Stayed Too Long
Most of the Christian world does not observe the Sabbath on Saturday. Why not get your message out to the rest of them, instead of butting heads with a few at GSC who you know have rejected your logic?
Visit the local Catholic Church to see if you can get the priest to close their doors on Sunday, and have mass exclusively on Saturday. If he won’t, keep going back week after week, showing him the Word, and start throwing insults st him.
Next hit the LDS church down the street. Pull all the missionaries aside and see if they will tell Salt Lake City to finally worship when God wants them too.
Don’t forget the Baptists. Do you think they will let you thump on their pulpit demanding the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday?
I doubt if you will have much success, and will soon be back at GSC trying to wrangle your dogma down our throats again.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Perhaps I was sinning by doing some work today, Saturday. But then maybe we are all sinning by not going to Waxit's church today, Saturday. Perhaps Waxit was even sinning because the church might be closed now because of the coronavirus and people not allowed now to sit side by side in public places. But then with the Sabbath being the day of rest. Perhaps I could be the largest sinner by working on another biblical article today to finalize my biblical book that I want to finish and get published. However, at least I got a lot of sleep with the start of Saturday after 12:00 midnight. I even slept until at least 10:00 am this morning. However, with me being in California and it being about 9:16 pm. for my time zone. Perhaps I am sinning now by writing instead of sleeping or resting. However, people in the Eastern time zone now. It is now considered Sunday at 12:16 am. Perhaps they are not sinning now by working.
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Twinky
A "day" Biblically is evening to evening. It's Friday night to Saturday night. So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday evening.
Not sure how time zones apply. Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time? In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time. Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.
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Mark Sanguinetti
WOW Twinky, you sound like a genius. But then maybe your two cats are helping you with this. Perhaps I should apologize for being a workaholic. However, I think there is no reason for Twinky to apologize for being a genius. But then maybe if I could pet Twinky's cats, I could be a genius too. However, in thinking while petting my head, perhaps in Old Testament times they had earlier evenings because they had no electrical lights to stay up late to see with. Therefore they went to sleep earlier than we do today, while perhaps waking up earlier than most of us do today.
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Waxit
Let's talk about the Noahide laws since we are talking about the 7th day sabbath keeping
being passed down the generations.
The Noahide laws are very general as you can see they are not specific
So what are you saying?
Are you saying that just because the sabbath has not been mentioned specifically - that means it has not been kept
Is that what you are saying?
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Twinky
@ Mark:
I think it was considered "day" when a white thread could be distinguished from a black thread.
I've recently finished "online church" (it's a great service, with online coffee afterwards (=four or five breakout rooms) - nice to catch up with everybody.
I will worship the Lord more fully when I go out for a lovely long walk in the sunshine, in the countryside that my house is very close to. I shall admire all the beautiful new foliage in so many different colours, all the pretty flowers, all the bees and other critters; and I will be amazed once again at the luxuriously bountiful world the Lord has created. A friend will be joining me and we will walk in tandem (socially distancing).
Later, I may call on a few people who are socially isolating and have a little chat with them through their windows or open doors. Nice for shut-ins to see a real person and have a real chat. In the evening, I'll ring my mum (140 miles away, I can't visit).
It seems to me that that is a worthy, honourable way to worship the Lord and to respect the Sabbath.
Edited by TwinkyAn honourable WAY not honourable day (which is what I first put)
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Twinky
You said it, Waxit - that Noah kept the Sabbath. I'm asking for your evidence. It clearly wasn't a "commandment." Not for Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week.
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Waxit
Hi Twinky
You can observe sabbath according to the sunset time right where you live.
You do not have to observe Jerusalem time.
God has set up the 7th day sabbath from evening to evening where you are living
which is pretty good. What if a sabbath keeper is in the antartic- it wouldnt be very practical
for him or her to follow Jerusalem time would it? The way God has organized it works for everybody where they are
The 7th day sabbath is a special day in Heaven- God established it in Genesis.
So as the earth rotates around the sun- people all around the world will be worshipping and resting when sunset
drops in at their location.
So when you are resting and worshipping, fellowshipping and communing with God where you are living
you are in sync with heaven and God who estabilished it in the heavens.
Thats not to say -the rest of the week we forget God- we must be connecing with God 24/7
but God knows the hectic pressure we face in our everyday life so
He established a special 7th day sabbath at sunset and has specially given us a weekly set time audience with Him
Jesus Christ our Lord is also Lord of the Sabbath ( greek word shabat-rest & worship)
whether you recognise anything special happening or not on this day- He is doing a transformational work in our hearts
to prepare us for the return of the Lord - which is going to be happening any time - it's getting closer as we speak
Usually I find that after the sabbath- I enter the week with renewed vigour and the counsel and love of God strenghens me to be more
diligent in being in sync with God's word to have that relationship with God
You will notice that Hebrews 11 is a faith chapter. The heroes of the faith overcame tremendous challenges because they had
the relationship with God in loving Him and being obedient to His commandments
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (7th day Sabbath gives us the time and space to rest and diligently seek Him)
God has promised us that He will help overcome these very challenging times.
You can see that prophecies are coming to pass- pestilences, tribulations is on
the horizon and we can only endure and overcome by God's frace and mercy
Jesus Christ our Lord said in
John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (The Lord of the Sabbath) , and I
in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
There is good news for all those who love, trust and obey God
Romans 8:35-39 King James Version (KJV)
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Regards
Waxit
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Twinky
My comment to which you replied, Waxit, was very tongue-in-cheek.
You haven't bothered to reply to my comment on what YOU raised - about Noah.
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Waxit
Ok! I get it - you still think that sabbath is legalistic and that I am going to be
wearing the jewish kippa on my head. LOL
Sorry about not recognising your tongue in cheek-n sarcasm -
Dont think I an avoiding to answer or I havent bothered to answer you - It's just that I thought you had caught on- apparently not
and I was going to answer your noahide laws discovery
Are you referring to my reply that Sabbath was kept right from the start in the garden of eden
and was continued through Noah.
To which you came up with the Noahide laws that doesnt say anything about the sabbath?
and I didnt have any reply to this.
Am i on the right track?
Just want to make sure I get this correct before I answer you
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waysider
What am I missing here? How much more specific can you get than "do not commit murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc."?
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Twinky
For the THIRD TIME OF ASKING, Waxit : PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH? (Sabbath on any day of the week is acceptable).
If you can't state what verse, can you please explain which of the highlighted words you don't understand and I will see if I can find an alternative word.
It's your contention that Noah observed the Sabbath, I'm asking for the evidence.
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Waxit
As I recall some time ago Twinky, when i said the same question to Mark- you said I was insulting
Arent you insulting me right now by putting it in bold clear, capitalised words? Isnt this double standard?
So one rule for regulars and another for newcomers who are unpopular
BTW before I answer your question about Noah observing the sabbath- PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH?
I would like to respond to you bringing up the Noahide laws first. the Noahide laws not biblical- it's devised by the Jews
The orthodox Jews fail to understand this verse below and are still "banging their heads against the wailing wall" (LOL) -:It doesnt get into their brain so they come up with ways to justify in some way the superiority of the jews and the inferiority of the gentiles in a subtle way
The reason the orthodox jews didnt mention (imo)about the sabbath is because they want to keep it for themselves and distinguish themselves as the "priveledged" class
Paul of course makes this very clear statement below
Romans 10:
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
I will ask the jews which part of that bible verse, don't they understand?
I found this on a website about the Noahide laws- In keeping with gsc guidelines, I am not going to send you to the website_ if you want further info- let me know:
The Noahide Laws
Edition 1.0 20160813-20160813)
The fraud of the Noahide Laws has been passed on the world to distance Judaism from Christianity and to deny the Laws of God coming from His nature and the absolute relationship of the Law and the Patriarchs and the extension of the Laws of God to mankind. Its purpose is to establish antinomianism and the fiction that God gave the law to Levites to place in Israel and that the Trinitarian Sunday worshipping church is not bound by it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In regards to Noah observing the biblical sabbath, there is no direct chapter and verse which says he observed the sabbath
That doesn't mean He did not observe the 7th sabbath. There are many things in the bible that was understood to be done but never directly mentioned.
For instance in the whole book of Esther, there is not one mention of the word "God". Do you mean to tell me that Esther and Mordecai- the heroes that saved the jews from total annhilatiion, didnt worship the one true God because there is not chapter or verse in Esther that mentions the word "God"
So if you ask me for chapter and verse, there aint one but it's quite clearly understood that Esther and Mordecai were God's people who
had the favour of God, worshipped and obeyed God. God orchestrated the event to bring about perfect justice
So how do i know that Noah observed the sabbath without a specific chapter and verse. I have already mentioned regarding this before and I am going to mention it again for the second time- so you dont have to ask me for the fourth time for chapter and verse.
We know the sabbath was established in heaven by God in Gen 2: 1-3
In Exodus 20:8, This is first time sabbath is specifically mentioned and before the written law was given
to Moses on stone tablets. Notice what God is saying:
Exodus 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
I asked you this question previously but you have not bothered to answer me.
So I am asking you this question for the second time,
How can God tell someone to remember to keep the Sabbath, if it was not already being kept"
How far back did it stretch? Well we know God started it in Gen 2:1-3
So obviously it must have stretched all the way back to Adam & Eve
So I am going to ask you another question for the second time- which you have not ignored otherwise you would have put 2 and 2 together
Why would God go to all that effort of creating the sabbath for man and let man ignore it. Hmmm! Yeah ok! It's an option- do what you like?
I dont think so- God doesnt do something for no reason- God is a perfect God. Once he establishes something, it is forever
Hebrews 13:
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Did the God of the universe create the sabbath because he was bored and had nothing better to do??
Jesus spefically said in Mark 2:
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
So what reason is there for man (the christ line) right down from Adam & Eve to ignore the sabbath??
We know the sabbath was a spoken commandment that happened on the 7th day of creation and later it became a written commandment
in Exodus 31:18 written by the finger of God
Does that mean people before Moses can ignore the spoken commandments or laws just because there is no written bible verse for it until Exodus 31:18 about 1450 to 1400 bc
Just because there is no specific bible verse against money laundering- is it ok for a christian to do money laundering?
Well! you would say that in the bible it says we must obey the laws of the land- so what about the law of God on sabbath keeping
when he finished the work of creating the heavens and the earth
So how do I know Noah observed the sabbath? Because God said he was a righteous man- Gen 6:9 a preacher of righteousness
Gen 6:9
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Ezekiel 14:14
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
(Another man of God who kept the sabbath)
Notice the striking similarities between Noah and Abraham- They were counted righteous because they believed and walked in the ways (laws and commandments of God) against a generation which was largely disobedient and unrigheous
Psalm 19:9
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord (including the 7th day sabbath)
are true and righteous altogether.
Romans 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed (faith that results in obedience) God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
How can God call Noah righteous if he flouts the laws of God -which was passed down the generattions
I am sure that there would have been a seventh day of the week during Noah's time (No offence intended)
What would have happened if Noah didnt keep the 7th day Sabbath? It's disobedience against God's commandment Ex 20:8-11
God cannot call him righteous and without blame if Noah disobeyed the 7th day commandment keeping sabbath
You dont need a bible verse to figure that out
Why? Because of 1 John 3:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (God's spoken or written word)
I am going to be polite. In light of everything that I have highlighted and explained, and does the above verse in 1 John 3 ring a bell to you as to why Noah, a preacher of righteousness and one that is called righteous by God would have definitely obeyed the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment of God started in Genesis 2:1-3
Regards
Waxit
Edited by Waxit:
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waysider
Waxit, your post is filled with circular reasoning.
"How do you know that's true?"
"I saw it on the internet and they can't put it on the internet if it's not true."
"How do you know they can't?"
"I saw it on the internet."
(It also crosses the line into antisemitism, but maybe I shouldn't go there for now.)
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Twinky
Sad.
Well, I had a lovely Sunday - Sabbath, if you wish, or even if you don't wish - honouring and respecting God and doing exactly what I said I'd do. I am rested and refreshed (the purpose of the sabbath).
And I am loved and cared for by my God, the father of the Lord Jesus Christ, who sees me as his child. I know this, and I know it doesn't depend on what I do or don't do. It's not conditional upon what I do, whether I wear the right clothes, use the right words, pray 297 times a day or none, cover my head or don't - or observe a particular day above all others.
I believe Gal 3; do you? (Might be worth a re-read) You'll see that this very chapter tells us that we are redeemed from the law. Bought back from it. Not under law any more.
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
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