Please, Waxit, have a bigger view of God. He sent Jesus to die horrifically so that all might live - not be banished.
I wish I could agree with you that we will all be ok- i would be the happiest person on earth
do my best and let God take care of the rest- everyone wants to believe that but the question, is that the truth?
Look! it's not about me- I couldnt really give a hoot about me or what i have done- believe i am not boasting not
taking any credit- I was one of the worst sinners- I paid th price once I didnt pray to God for his approval and copped a huge
price- after years os heart ache- i cried out to him- i didnt fall on anyone's lap- I went to God directly
You have to understand God- He has revealed who He is
Whatever you said about Him is true- I dont deny that- but PAY ATTENTION NOW- He is a God of Justice- is this going over your head? I hope not
I know we all sinned and Jesus Christ paid a huge price- but we repented and God through the sacrficial lamb
of God -Jesus Christ forgave us. God found a way to get us out of death and translated us into the kingdom of His
dear son, Jesus Christ
Earlier i told you about the new covenant- it's not a joke- if we dont keep the commandments
Did God ask you to be perfect- when he said "be ye holy for i am holy" no- he knows we are not going to be
perfect. All he said is, "keep my commandments including 7th day sabbath"
Are you keeping it? No! You are willfully ignoring it week in and week out
Please- you do not have to reply to me - just mediatate on this and let it soak into your conscience
you gain nothing by arguing with me- its a wwaste of time- it's midnight here- I hope you understand- that
i wont be doing this if i didnt feel very very very strongly- I have given every other person on gsc
If you think i am scaring you into believing- you are wrong- I am just requesting you to consider thescriptures
below so that you will c=be concerned enough to go to God in prayer, prety soon I will be winding down on
everybody on the public forum in gsc- I have already answered everything you could throw at me
See if God will do a special bypass this one: Paul is talking to Christians like you and me -These jew christians came out of Judaism (man made traditions)
and were slowly drifting back into judaism
So if these guys are going to cop it heavily, what makes you think- God will wink you through- (It aint gonna happen)
It's not a matter of doing your best - like doing you best to remain sinless- like not stealing, not lying (we all do this)
Is God expecting you to do the perfect 7th day sabbath- No just to keep them- Are you doing it? No
Ignoring the 7th day sabbath is something that you willfully do every week, week in and out- how many years now?
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,(Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for us)
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Whatever you said about Him is true- I dont deny that- but PAY ATTENTION NOW- He is a God of Justice- is this going over your head? I hope not
God is also a God of mercy. Is that --- is that going over your head?
Mercy follows after justice, and takes the sting out of it.
You have access to BibleHub and other Bible software. Look how many times God is referred to as merciful. Re-read the "mercy parables" in Luke 15, compare and contrast with other parables and records of God's mercy in both OT and NT. Time for you to PAY ATTENTION NOW.
The seven day weekly cycle was established by God in Gen 2:1-2 and is not obscured and is not tied to patterns
or alignment of stars, sun or moon. It is a continous serial counting of days one after another from the time God set it
in motion -1st day of the week to 7th day of the week and it is unbroken till our present day.
The fact that the days of the week have pagan names doesnt alter the sequence from 1st day- Sunday to 7th day Saturday
The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7 until the babylonians
So the babylonians -the earliest civilization adopted this weekly cycle that people were used to this- initially it was day 1 to day 7 weekly cycle -
which was was started by God to this present date.
I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Counting from when? Are you saying the entire world (or maybe universe) was created in only 6x24-hr periods? Even if yes, who was around to count from day 1? Are you saying that God said to Adam, "I made you on Day 6, do have a nice sleep tomorrow, make sure you don't do a thing; and then get to work the day after that"? And Adam and Eve and all their kids counted every seventh day from then and took the day off? Are you counting from 4004BC or something? I asked you in an earlier post, what about ancient rock, fossil and other records of civilisations very very much older than 4000 years.
Whatever you are saying about Babylonians is irrelevant, since they (and their calendar) were not around when God created the world, nor when Adam and Eve first walked upon it. Therefore, you have to discount what they thought about days. Or can you prove (that's prove, not think) that they managed to count from the beginning of the earth? If that is your assertion, please explain how they did this.
How - please - can you possibly say: "The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7."
Please help us to understand you. What is your story, your background? I knew you face to face, when you were an earnest young man and we both lived in another country. Regrettably, I introduced you to TWI, which you embraced with fervour. You told me recently some of what happened in later years after our paths separated. What happened before we met (you never said anything of that)? What happened in later years (you told me a little, personally, but it's nothing exceptional in the norm of junk stuff that happens - our own fault or other people's faults).
Saul/Paul went after Christians with a religious mandate to murder them. And he did! Did you murder someone, many perhaps, for blasphemy?
Nicky Cruz was a gang member who rose to become a mightily feared man of great evil power, local warlord, terroriser of the city and other gangs. Converted by David Wilkerson, he went on to become an international evangelist. Read his story in Run, Baby, Run.
John Lawson is a British born Christian Evangelist, who, in his former life was a violent criminal that gave his life to Christ in prison in 2005. Since his release from prison with a ‘new heart and a new spirit’ in Christ, John has gone on to share his new found faith with others. Today, he is a full time UK based evangelist serving as an Evangelist and Mission Leader and trainer within the Great Commission Society.
These, and other men like them, might consider themselves "one of the worst sinners" yet they share their stories with joy, knowing what God has rescued them from, and demonstrating how thankful they are.
Were you a murdering religious zealot? Or just a one-off murderer? A violent thug? A drug-runner? A repeat offender in prison for crimes great and small? (I don't believer you were any of these, you never gave me cause to think that. Even if you were, it would make no difference, if you live your best for God now.) What? Why are you "one of the worst sinners"? What changed you; why did you feel the need to change? How did you come to understand what you now do?
Look! it's not about me- I couldnt really give a hoot about me or what i have done- believe i am not boasting not
taking any credit- I was one of the worst sinners- I paid th price once I didnt pray to God for his approval and copped a huge
price- after years os heart ache- i cried out to him- i didnt fall on anyone's lap- I went to God directly
You have to understand God- He has revealed who He is
Who anointed you as the primary judge of all women and men on Earth today?
I wish YOU would humble yourself and pray. Then you might see the way you have been trying to communicate your understanding of God's law isn't getting through to us.
As it stands, the only thing you're telegraphing as to your intentions is that you have judged us and found us lacking.
Will you be sitting at God's right hand on judgment day? Just sayin'.
Rocky once said that people don't change their minds with logical posts. Not entirely true. On one thread, I completely reversed my position on something based entirely on the discussion. The other side of the discussion had a lot of good points. The side I agreed with didn't, and didn't have any answers for any of the good points on the other side. I couldn't think of any defense, and there wasn't any post of "You've failed to consider this.." with a point I couldn't find. In fact, when I mentioned that, the poster who was really obfuscating and fuzzing the discussion insisted I should post an example- meaning I should post something I NEVER THOUGHT OF- which would be a good trick since I'd have to think of it before actually posting it.
However, I didn't follow the discussion at all when the initial poster looked like he was venting rather than presenting his point. It was after he calmed down, took things less personal, and calmly made his points that I started to reconsider everything and review his points- which got better as he went along.
What happened in later years (you told me a little, personally, but it's nothing exceptional in the norm of junk stuff that happens - our own fault or other people's faults).
I dont wish to share my personal life in public forum- if you want I can inbox you-
provided you lock box it because it is none of any one else's business
Rocky once said that people don't change their minds with logical posts. Not entirely true. On one thread, I completely reversed my position on something based entirely on the discussion. The other side of the discussion had a lot of good points. The side I agreed with didn't, and didn't have any answers for any of the good points on the other side. I couldn't think of any defense, and there wasn't any post of "You've failed to consider this.." with a point I couldn't find. In fact, when I mentioned that, the poster who was really obfuscating and fuzzing the discussion insisted I should post an example- meaning I should post something I NEVER THOUGHT OF- which would be a good trick since I'd have to think of it before actually posting it.
However, I didn't follow the discussion at all when the initial poster looked like he was venting rather than presenting his point. It was after he calmed down, took things less personal, and calmly made his points that I started to reconsider everything and review his points- which got better as he went along.
Well, I'm not the dogmatic one. As I understand it, adult humans don't change deeply held values based on logical arguments. For that, it takes significant emotional events. I suppose even in that regard, the degree of change and the deepness of the value held would be a matter of degrees.
Nevertheless, in conveying a general concept, I'm not necessarily always as dead on accurate as possible.
It's a good thing to be open to learning more and changing one's understanding when new knowledge becomes available.
I'm glad it has worked for you WW. And that you shared that bit of your story here.
I dont wish to share my personal life in public forum- if you want I can inbox you-
provided you lock box it because it is none of any one else's business
That is certainly your right and privilege. I don't think anyone is suggesting you are at all required to do so.
The point is that IF you want to succeed at your stated endeavor of effectively sharing your new (to your audience anyway) understanding of scripture with them, you'll want to figure out how to relate to your audience. Using stories, most powerfully your own (or some small part of your own) as it would relate to your audience and to the point you want to make, would give you much more powerful ability to do so.
I don't personally need to know anything about you. But I can tell you that you have not succeeded in effectively getting your point across about the 7th Day Sabbath, at least to me.
And hopefully I've made it clear as to why that's the case. I do not share this to insult you or criticize at all. I've tried to empathize with you. But I suppose I haven't succeeded either.
God is also a God of mercy. Is that --- is that going over your head?
Mercy follows after justice, and takes the sting out of it.
You have access to BibleHub and other Bible software. Look how many times God is referred to as merciful. Re-read the "mercy parables" in Luke 15, compare and contrast with other parables and records of God's mercy in both OT and NT. Time for you to PAY ATTENTION NOW.
Ok! let's not argue anymore- about this is that and that is that- it is never ending. You are trying to talk louder than me
by telling me nothing new (nothing that i dont already know of- you are just jumping into another rabbit hwole bwy saying- nah! nana nena- you cant catch me
My understanding of God is all what you have described and more- You only speak
about mercy, love and compassion and all that but you never delve into the fiery judgement
of God that He has warned us against so we can be on guard.
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
If God can show you mercy for violating the law and being unrepentant
than as a just God- He will also have to pardon the devil- How do you like that?
The only reason why the devil cannot be pardoned is because he will neve repent-
It's the same position that you will get into if you dont repent
What did Jesus Christ who was very merciful and compassionate say to sinners- "did he say dont worry continue in your sins because God is merciful
He said "repent" for the kingdom of God is at hand. Mercy from God to forgive comes conditional with repentance.
How is God to wash awy the sins if there is wno repentance. We are talking about sin- we are not talking about feeding the hungry
What did John the Baptist say- "Repent" - Forgiveness and mercy is conditional upon repentance
What did Peter the Apostle say, "Repent and be baptised?- Being accepted into the kingdom of God comes after repentance
So in light of that, Have you repented for not obeying the 4th commandment of God- "To keep the 7th day sabbath for all these years" - No! I dont think so -from what wyou have been saying
How can you if you cannot even admit that you are in direct violation of the 4th commandment? Repentance is required for God to forgive and show mercy
Thiis is why Jesus Christ came to pay the price for our sins- Having paid the price- we sinners then accept Him as our saviour and lord and in doing so
repent from our sins.
What did Jesus Christ say to the woman caught in adultery,whom he saved from stoning- Did he say, dear, continue
in your sins, it's ok- God understands your need He said, Go and sin no more (repentance)
Twinky, I think you havent repented from violating the 4th commandment because you dont it as sin- I can understand that
when someone cannot see or refuse to admit it as sin, they wont be able to repent
Where there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness from God and when then there is no forgiveness, your relationship with God is cut off
Is it so hard for you to keep the 7th day sabbath - that you keep looking for excuses why you can get away with it
I can understand it if it the 7th day sabbath is a casual mention of God but it isnt?
It's a mandated covenant law that's etched in stone and for Christians who keep all the commandments of God
it's going to be written in the hearts of men and woman who keep the commandments of God
My understanding is that mercy from God is so great, I cannot fathom or comprehend it and that's why I will
always be in love with God and be completlely obedient to God and His commandments
God doesnt sugar coat us when he warns us of the fiery judgement that's coming.
The fear of the Lord (absolute respect for God and His word-His commandmens) is the beginning of wisdom
Obviously, the verse below that I am quoting hasnt sunk into your head
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
You dont have to waste your time replying to this post because i know you will just go down yet anothe rabbit hole
Let's one answer just answer scripture verses directly and leave it at that
maybe in answering my quesions, you can show me something that I have never looked at it that way before
How - please - can you possibly say: "The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7."
Do you think God who created the heavens and the earth and who established
weeks, days and months in Genesis will know when the original seventh day right after 6 days of
creation would be. Of course, he would know. He know the number of hairs on your head right now
So even If the Sabbath was somehow lost between the creation of the world and by the time the 10 commanment were given
God knowing when the original seventh day was, would rained manna on on the sixth day so the children of Israel can relax and enjoy the food on the seventh without having to go out and gather food)
So God was the original calendar authority- and the children of Israel were observing the original seventh day (courtest of God who establised the 7th day week
and gave it to the children of israel. All that time - it was day I,2,3,4,5,6,7 and then start back again.
If the children of Isreael ever forgot, during the time of Moses, when they saw manna from the skies, would have known that the was the sixth day
Do you think after 40 years of weekly manna from the skies on the sixth day by God- it would have been etched in the jewish mind as to which day the 7th day
of the week corresponding to the orginal 7th day creation
Exodus 16
4 Then said theLordunto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily
I hope this answers your question as to when the original seventh day is
If after looking at the clear info at the above website, you still doubt that the original 7th day is the same as from beginning og creation,
then i would be convinced that you are just looking for n exit clause
to disobey the 7th day sabbath commandment
please do not ask me again about this same original 7th day issue- I am tired of explaining it to you over and over again
These, and other men like them, might consider themselves "one of the worst sinners" yet they share their stories with joy, knowing what God has rescued them from, and demonstrating how thankful they are.
I am not as bad as i made myself sound- the reason why I said that -after becoming a christian when was In the US
When I came back to my home country, I just completely ignored God and went back to sin just like any other young worldy person
I wouldnt consider myself as a criminal
and was not in trouble with the law as such.But after my horrid experience wwith twi was a big scar in my life
It was when i was in spiritual wilderness -that God felt my pain and heard my cry
I will not share it on the public forum on gsc again but i dont mind sharing it in your inbox
Twinky, it looks likes you are gone back to being evasive and site stepping- so if you could answer just one
simple question without going to another rabbit hole- we can end the sabbath debate between
us. Please do not quote sections of my post on what i am saying. and making comments, because it will only prolong the debate which is going to be pointless for both of us
It looks likes after all he questions you had, I haveanswered and it is quite evident to me that you are never going to see how disobeying the specific
7th day sabbath is a sin so thats where the issue is and because you dont see it as important as not lying and stealing
so I am going to be winding down to just 1 or 2 more conversations (max) with you and then
I am done with public forum in gsc - So dont worry you dont have to put up with me anymore and i dont have to waste huge amounts of time
if someone doesnt see the significance of the sabbath and willingly come forward -it will also be very unproductive
To recap the type of questions you have asked where you felt 7th sabbath is unimportant and how I have answered:
You didnt understand why it's a big deal that it's got to be 7th day God is specific as to which day of the week is to be the sabbath- Read Exodus 20:8-11
sabbath as you already keep sabbath on another day of the week If God was no patricular which day- He wouldnt specify 7th day of the week
This is covenant law of God with the church- A covenant law which
comes with a promise by God cannot be revoked
(you cannot add to it (nominate some other day for sabbath
or subtract meaning you ignore keeping the 7th day sabbath
You asked me about land sabbath rest - how it will be unfair for other I answered you- land sabbath if planned properly a good agricultural principle
people having to work just so christians can observe this commanment and God perits other type of occupations when land is fallow
You asked about Exodus 20: 10 how it would be impossible to ensure that the whole town I answered you letting you know that the word town is actually
is keepping sabbath " within thy gates" in the original greek translation
which means it's under your area control to ensure complliance
You said sabbath is for the old testament and doubtful whether the disciples of Jesus Christ The verse below in Mark 16:1 shows you that the sabbath was not really paid much attention to sabbath only being kept
in the new testament, it slam dunks your idea that 7th day sabbath is unimportant Jesus own disciples- skipped anointing the body of spices of their beloved Lord to
honour the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment- so if that doesnt tell you how
importanant 7th day sabbath keeping is in the new testament- I dont know what will
Mark 16
1 Andwhen the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome,
had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.(The disciples of Jesus Christ delayed the embalming of their precious Lord Jesus Christ with sweet spices just because they wanted to honour the 7th day sabbath commandment How about that- does that not tell you the importance of sabbath keeping commandment post crucifixion)
Sabbath is also mentioned 10 times in the book of Acta
You asked how sure am i that the original 7th day sabbath is the saturday of our ppresent day calenday
Could you please directly answer the question below so I have a good idea of
why you think 7th day sabbath is insignificant or unimportant?
Do not ask me any more questions because I have already aswered enough- (pay special attention to words in bold)
Question:
If you are going to argue against the 7th day sabbath commandment in the 10 commandments
Do you mean to say, it is also not insignificant and unimportant if we continue to lie, steal and covet neighbours goods Why single out only the sabbath commandment as being unimportant ?
Waiting for your answer so we can wind up sabbath discusssion
Waxit, you'll like this: I'll partially give you the point about the manna. Certainly it's on the 7th day - from something.
Quote
Exodus 16:
On the fifteenth day of the second month after they had left the land of Egypt...
13That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14When the layer of dew had evaporated, there were thin flakes on the desert floor, as fine as frost on the ground. 15When the Israelites saw it, they asked one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.
So Moses told them, “It is the bread that the LORD has given you to eat...
22On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much food—two omers per person—and all the leaders of the congregation came and reported this to Moses. 23He told them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake, and boil what you want to boil. Then set aside whatever remains and keep it until morning.’”
END OF QUOTED MATERIAL
I would tend to think that this is re-setting the calendar from that time. Could be wrong, haven't studied it.
D'ya know, you might even make some good points at times, if you weren't so bloody rude about it and sooo unforgiving and dismissive of the views of others.
You are the one who digs rabbit holes. I just ask logical questions about what you post, as do others. Sorry if questions disconcert your world / bible view. Asking questions is good, though; helps one clarify one's arguments, PoV, etc, and see any logical disconnects. But enough of this mud-slinging - whether by rabbits, buckets and spades, or any other way.
I am pleased for you that you are not "the worst sinner;" no need to claim that you were. We're all bound by our sin-nature. We all stuff up, constantly. You, me, everyone.
How is "disobeying the 7th day commandment" somehow critical to one's relationship with God leading to immediate banishment, whereas pridefulness apparently is not? Loving God first and only is the critical one, I'd say; and elevating one's own opinion or head knowledge, or exalting oneself above others is prideful, and sets oneself up as God. There were so many OT rules and regulations to break. Nobody at all was capable of obeying them all.
Well, I'm not the dogmatic one. As I understand it, adult humans don't change deeply held values based on logical arguments. For that, it takes significant emotional events. I suppose even in that regard, the degree of change and the deepness of the value held would be a matter of degrees.
Nevertheless, in conveying a general concept, I'm not necessarily always as dead on accurate as possible.
It's a good thing to be open to learning more and changing one's understanding when new knowledge becomes available.
I'm glad it has worked for you WW. And that you shared that bit of your story here.
I was reminded of that with this thread. I was open to discussing, or reading along and changing my mind, but not so much when the posts read a little like "Why can't you chowderheads see this?"
I was reminded of that with this thread. I was open to discussing, or reading along and changing my mind, but not so much when the posts read a little like "Why can't you chowderheads see this?"
I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to the biblical topic at hand but I just read it and I find it intriguing.
"They will interpret what you say in light of what they want to hear; and if your advice runs counter to their desires, they will find some way to dismiss your opinion, your so-called expertise. The more powerful the person, the more they are subject to this form of the confirmation bias.
"When investigating confirmation bias in the world, take a look at theories that seem a little too good to be true. Statistics and studies are trotted out to prove them; these are not very difficult to find, once you are convinced of the rightness of your argument. On the internet, it is easy to find studies that support both sides of an argument. In general, you should never accept the validity of people’s ideas because they have supplied “evidence.” Instead, examine the evidence yourself in the cold light of day, with as much skepticism as you can muster. Your first impulse should always be to find the evidence that disconfirms your most cherished beliefs and those of others. That is true science."
Greene, Robert. The Laws of Human Nature (p. 29). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
In terms of our discussion, "evidence" relates to Bible verses. Science would be "biblical research." We seem to know enough to recognize that legitimate understanding of biblical truth acknowledges that there will be apparent contradictions and obvious paradox throughout the accepted scriptures. We all seem to have inherent biases that guide our interpretation of any complex issue, not the least of which would include God's commandments and His Plan for Redemption... given that we generally accept the Bible to be the focus of where God makes his will known.
One such bias, confirmation bias, is the first listed by Mr. Green in his book on Human Nature. That's where I found the quote above.
That's one reason I tried to change my approach to what our friend Gabe was trying to sell us about the sabbath. WE (most of us who have posted on this discussion) seem(ed) to have a common understanding of the issue. We set that understanding to words in response (and resistance) to Gabe's view. I've been able to recognize that I am not always right, and recognize it for years. Not necessarily for the last 34 years, but for more than one or two years.
So I figured I had nothing to lose by giving Gabe the opportunity to make his case without my resistance.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
60
71
80
156
Popular Days
May 24
27
Apr 23
25
Apr 26
24
May 20
23
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 60 posts
T-Bone 71 posts
Twinky 80 posts
Waxit 156 posts
Popular Days
May 24 2020
27 posts
Apr 23 2020
25 posts
Apr 26 2020
24 posts
May 20 2020
23 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
Right. The goal of the law is to get to know Jesus, the Christ. Get to know the Man, the King, the Shepherd, the Redeemer. The goal of the law IS NOT to get to observe any specific day, or time
WordWolf
"The thing though with you guys, it looks like in a clique, you are comfortable in protecting yourselves and when a new kid in the block comes is with something you don't like (which is quite clearl
WordWolf
Waxit: "The 7th day Sabbath was universally accepted by all and observed by both Jews,Gentiles and the apostles/leadership Acts 13: 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Waxit
I wish I could agree with you that we will all be ok- i would be the happiest person on earth
do my best and let God take care of the rest- everyone wants to believe that but the question, is that the truth?
Look! it's not about me- I couldnt really give a hoot about me or what i have done- believe i am not boasting not
taking any credit- I was one of the worst sinners- I paid th price once I didnt pray to God for his approval and copped a huge
price- after years os heart ache- i cried out to him- i didnt fall on anyone's lap- I went to God directly
You have to understand God- He has revealed who He is
Whatever you said about Him is true- I dont deny that- but PAY ATTENTION NOW- He is a God of Justice- is this going over your head? I hope not
I know we all sinned and Jesus Christ paid a huge price- but we repented and God through the sacrficial lamb
of God -Jesus Christ forgave us. God found a way to get us out of death and translated us into the kingdom of His
dear son, Jesus Christ
Earlier i told you about the new covenant- it's not a joke- if we dont keep the commandments
Did God ask you to be perfect- when he said "be ye holy for i am holy" no- he knows we are not going to be
perfect. All he said is, "keep my commandments including 7th day sabbath"
Are you keeping it? No! You are willfully ignoring it week in and week out
Please- you do not have to reply to me - just mediatate on this and let it soak into your conscience
you gain nothing by arguing with me- its a wwaste of time- it's midnight here- I hope you understand- that
i wont be doing this if i didnt feel very very very strongly- I have given every other person on gsc
If you think i am scaring you into believing- you are wrong- I am just requesting you to consider thescriptures
below so that you will c=be concerned enough to go to God in prayer, prety soon I will be winding down on
everybody on the public forum in gsc- I have already answered everything you could throw at me
See if God will do a special bypass this one: Paul is talking to Christians like you and me -These jew christians came out of Judaism (man made traditions)
and were slowly drifting back into judaism
So if these guys are going to cop it heavily, what makes you think- God will wink you through- (It aint gonna happen)
It's not a matter of doing your best - like doing you best to remain sinless- like not stealing, not lying (we all do this)
Is God expecting you to do the perfect 7th day sabbath- No just to keep them- Are you doing it? No
Ignoring the 7th day sabbath is something that you willfully do every week, week in and out- how many years now?
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,(Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for us)
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
God is also a God of mercy. Is that --- is that going over your head?
Mercy follows after justice, and takes the sting out of it.
You have access to BibleHub and other Bible software. Look how many times God is referred to as merciful. Re-read the "mercy parables" in Luke 15, compare and contrast with other parables and records of God's mercy in both OT and NT. Time for you to PAY ATTENTION NOW.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Counting from when? Are you saying the entire world (or maybe universe) was created in only 6x24-hr periods? Even if yes, who was around to count from day 1? Are you saying that God said to Adam, "I made you on Day 6, do have a nice sleep tomorrow, make sure you don't do a thing; and then get to work the day after that"? And Adam and Eve and all their kids counted every seventh day from then and took the day off? Are you counting from 4004BC or something? I asked you in an earlier post, what about ancient rock, fossil and other records of civilisations very very much older than 4000 years.
Whatever you are saying about Babylonians is irrelevant, since they (and their calendar) were not around when God created the world, nor when Adam and Eve first walked upon it. Therefore, you have to discount what they thought about days. Or can you prove (that's prove, not think) that they managed to count from the beginning of the earth? If that is your assertion, please explain how they did this.
How - please - can you possibly say: "The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Please help us to understand you. What is your story, your background? I knew you face to face, when you were an earnest young man and we both lived in another country. Regrettably, I introduced you to TWI, which you embraced with fervour. You told me recently some of what happened in later years after our paths separated. What happened before we met (you never said anything of that)? What happened in later years (you told me a little, personally, but it's nothing exceptional in the norm of junk stuff that happens - our own fault or other people's faults).
Saul/Paul went after Christians with a religious mandate to murder them. And he did! Did you murder someone, many perhaps, for blasphemy?
Nicky Cruz was a gang member who rose to become a mightily feared man of great evil power, local warlord, terroriser of the city and other gangs. Converted by David Wilkerson, he went on to become an international evangelist. Read his story in Run, Baby, Run.
John Lawson is a British born Christian Evangelist, who, in his former life was a violent criminal that gave his life to Christ in prison in 2005. Since his release from prison with a ‘new heart and a new spirit’ in Christ, John has gone on to share his new found faith with others. Today, he is a full time UK based evangelist serving as an Evangelist and Mission Leader and trainer within the Great Commission Society.
These, and other men like them, might consider themselves "one of the worst sinners" yet they share their stories with joy, knowing what God has rescued them from, and demonstrating how thankful they are.
Were you a murdering religious zealot? Or just a one-off murderer? A violent thug? A drug-runner? A repeat offender in prison for crimes great and small? (I don't believer you were any of these, you never gave me cause to think that. Even if you were, it would make no difference, if you live your best for God now.) What? Why are you "one of the worst sinners"? What changed you; why did you feel the need to change? How did you come to understand what you now do?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Who anointed you as the primary judge of all women and men on Earth today?
I wish YOU would humble yourself and pray. Then you might see the way you have been trying to communicate your understanding of God's law isn't getting through to us.
As it stands, the only thing you're telegraphing as to your intentions is that you have judged us and found us lacking.
Will you be sitting at God's right hand on judgment day? Just sayin'.
I wish you growth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Rocky once said that people don't change their minds with logical posts. Not entirely true. On one thread, I completely reversed my position on something based entirely on the discussion. The other side of the discussion had a lot of good points. The side I agreed with didn't, and didn't have any answers for any of the good points on the other side. I couldn't think of any defense, and there wasn't any post of "You've failed to consider this.." with a point I couldn't find. In fact, when I mentioned that, the poster who was really obfuscating and fuzzing the discussion insisted I should post an example- meaning I should post something I NEVER THOUGHT OF- which would be a good trick since I'd have to think of it before actually posting it.
However, I didn't follow the discussion at all when the initial poster looked like he was venting rather than presenting his point. It was after he calmed down, took things less personal, and calmly made his points that I started to reconsider everything and review his points- which got better as he went along.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
I dont wish to share my personal life in public forum- if you want I can inbox you-
provided you lock box it because it is none of any one else's business
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Well, I'm not the dogmatic one.
As I understand it, adult humans don't change deeply held values based on logical arguments. For that, it takes significant emotional events. I suppose even in that regard, the degree of change and the deepness of the value held would be a matter of degrees.
Edited by RockyNevertheless, in conveying a general concept, I'm not necessarily always as dead on accurate as possible.
It's a good thing to be open to learning more and changing one's understanding when new knowledge becomes available.
I'm glad it has worked for you WW. And that you shared that bit of your story here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
That is certainly your right and privilege. I don't think anyone is suggesting you are at all required to do so.
The point is that IF you want to succeed at your stated endeavor of effectively sharing your new (to your audience anyway) understanding of scripture with them, you'll want to figure out how to relate to your audience. Using stories, most powerfully your own (or some small part of your own) as it would relate to your audience and to the point you want to make, would give you much more powerful ability to do so.
I don't personally need to know anything about you. But I can tell you that you have not succeeded in effectively getting your point across about the 7th Day Sabbath, at least to me.
And hopefully I've made it clear as to why that's the case. I do not share this to insult you or criticize at all. I've tried to empathize with you. But I suppose I haven't succeeded either.
Take care Gabe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Ok! let's not argue anymore- about this is that and that is that- it is never ending. You are trying to talk louder than me
by telling me nothing new (nothing that i dont already know of- you are just jumping into another rabbit hwole bwy saying- nah! nana nena- you cant catch me
My understanding of God is all what you have described and more- You only speak
about mercy, love and compassion and all that but you never delve into the fiery judgement
of God that He has warned us against so we can be on guard.
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
If God can show you mercy for violating the law and being unrepentant
than as a just God- He will also have to pardon the devil- How do you like that?
The only reason why the devil cannot be pardoned is because he will neve repent-
It's the same position that you will get into if you dont repent
What did Jesus Christ who was very merciful and compassionate say to sinners- "did he say dont worry continue in your sins because God is merciful
He said "repent" for the kingdom of God is at hand. Mercy from God to forgive comes conditional with repentance.
How is God to wash awy the sins if there is wno repentance. We are talking about sin- we are not talking about feeding the hungry
What did John the Baptist say- "Repent" - Forgiveness and mercy is conditional upon repentance
What did Peter the Apostle say, "Repent and be baptised?- Being accepted into the kingdom of God comes after repentance
So in light of that, Have you repented for not obeying the 4th commandment of God- "To keep the 7th day sabbath for all these years" - No! I dont think so -from what wyou have been saying
How can you if you cannot even admit that you are in direct violation of the 4th commandment? Repentance is required for God to forgive and show mercy
Thiis is why Jesus Christ came to pay the price for our sins- Having paid the price- we sinners then accept Him as our saviour and lord and in doing so
repent from our sins.
What did Jesus Christ say to the woman caught in adultery,whom he saved from stoning- Did he say, dear, continue
in your sins, it's ok- God understands your need He said, Go and sin no more (repentance)
Twinky, I think you havent repented from violating the 4th commandment because you dont it as sin- I can understand that
when someone cannot see or refuse to admit it as sin, they wont be able to repent
Where there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness from God and when then there is no forgiveness, your relationship with God is cut off
Is it so hard for you to keep the 7th day sabbath - that you keep looking for excuses why you can get away with it
I can understand it if it the 7th day sabbath is a casual mention of God but it isnt?
It's a mandated covenant law that's etched in stone and for Christians who keep all the commandments of God
it's going to be written in the hearts of men and woman who keep the commandments of God
My understanding is that mercy from God is so great, I cannot fathom or comprehend it and that's why I will
always be in love with God and be completlely obedient to God and His commandments
God doesnt sugar coat us when he warns us of the fiery judgement that's coming.
The fear of the Lord (absolute respect for God and His word-His commandmens) is the beginning of wisdom
Obviously, the verse below that I am quoting hasnt sunk into your head
Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
You dont have to waste your time replying to this post because i know you will just go down yet anothe rabbit hole
Edited by WaxitLet's one answer just answer scripture verses directly and leave it at that
maybe in answering my quesions, you can show me something that I have never looked at it that way before
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
Do you think God who created the heavens and the earth and who established
weeks, days and months in Genesis will know when the original seventh day right after 6 days of
creation would be. Of course, he would know. He know the number of hairs on your head right now
So even If the Sabbath was somehow lost between the creation of the world and by the time the 10 commanment were given
God knowing when the original seventh day was, would rained manna on on the sixth day so the children of Israel can relax and enjoy the food on the seventh without having to go out and gather food)
So God was the original calendar authority- and the children of Israel were observing the original seventh day (courtest of God who establised the 7th day week
and gave it to the children of israel. All that time - it was day I,2,3,4,5,6,7 and then start back again.
If the children of Isreael ever forgot, during the time of Moses, when they saw manna from the skies, would have known that the was the sixth day
Do you think after 40 years of weekly manna from the skies on the sixth day by God- it would have been etched in the jewish mind as to which day the 7th day
of the week corresponding to the orginal 7th day creation
Exodus 16
4 Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily
I hope this answers your question as to when the original seventh day is
For a clearer explanation of how after the children of Israel, how with the advent of gjulian anr gregorian calendar,
the original seventh day of the week was retained
please go here: https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/how-can-we-be-sure-that-saturday-is-the-seventh-day
If after looking at the clear info at the above website, you still doubt that the original 7th day is the same as from beginning og creation,
then i would be convinced that you are just looking for n exit clause
to disobey the 7th day sabbath commandment
please do not ask me again about this same original 7th day issue- I am tired of explaining it to you over and over again
Regards
Waxit
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Sigh...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Where's that shrug emoji when you really need it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Waxit
I am not as bad as i made myself sound- the reason why I said that -after becoming a christian when was In the US
When I came back to my home country, I just completely ignored God and went back to sin just like any other young worldy person
I wouldnt consider myself as a criminal
and was not in trouble with the law as such.But after my horrid experience wwith twi was a big scar in my life
It was when i was in spiritual wilderness -that God felt my pain and heard my cry
I will not share it on the public forum on gsc again but i dont mind sharing it in your inbox
Twinky, it looks likes you are gone back to being evasive and site stepping- so if you could answer just one
simple question without going to another rabbit hole- we can end the sabbath debate between
us. Please do not quote sections of my post on what i am saying. and making comments, because it will only prolong the debate which is going to be pointless for both of us
It looks likes after all he questions you had, I haveanswered and it is quite evident to me that you are never going to see how disobeying the specific
7th day sabbath is a sin so thats where the issue is and because you dont see it as important as not lying and stealing
so I am going to be winding down to just 1 or 2 more conversations (max) with you and then
I am done with public forum in gsc - So dont worry you dont have to put up with me anymore and i dont have to waste huge amounts of time
if someone doesnt see the significance of the sabbath and willingly come forward -it will also be very unproductive
To recap the type of questions you have asked where you felt 7th sabbath is unimportant and how I have answered:
You didnt understand why it's a big deal that it's got to be 7th day God is specific as to which day of the week is to be the sabbath- Read Exodus 20:8-11
sabbath as you already keep sabbath on another day of the week If God was no patricular which day- He wouldnt specify 7th day of the week
This is covenant law of God with the church- A covenant law which
comes with a promise by God cannot be revoked
(you cannot add to it (nominate some other day for sabbath
or subtract meaning you ignore keeping the 7th day sabbath
You asked me about land sabbath rest - how it will be unfair for other I answered you- land sabbath if planned properly a good agricultural principle
people having to work just so christians can observe this commanment and God perits other type of occupations when land is fallow
You asked about Exodus 20: 10 how it would be impossible to ensure that the whole town I answered you letting you know that the word town is actually
is keepping sabbath " within thy gates" in the original greek translation
which means it's under your area control to ensure complliance
You said sabbath is for the old testament and doubtful whether the disciples of Jesus Christ The verse below in Mark 16:1 shows you that the sabbath was not really paid much attention to sabbath only being kept
in the new testament, it slam dunks your idea that 7th day sabbath is unimportant Jesus own disciples- skipped anointing the body of spices of their beloved Lord to
honour the 7th day sabbath keeping commandment- so if that doesnt tell you how
importanant 7th day sabbath keeping is in the new testament- I dont know what will
Mark 16
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome,
had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. (The disciples of Jesus Christ delayed the embalming of their precious Lord Jesus Christ with sweet spices just because they wanted to honour the 7th day sabbath commandment How about that- does that not tell you the importance of sabbath keeping commandment post crucifixion)
Sabbath is also mentioned 10 times in the book of Acta
You asked how sure am i that the original 7th day sabbath is the saturday of our ppresent day calenday
Please refer to my previous post to you and for a much clearer explanation
Go to this website link: https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/how-can-we-be-sure-that-saturday-is-the-seventh-day
I dont belong to this chucrch but they give a very good explanation to your query
Could you please directly answer the question below so I have a good idea of
why you think 7th day sabbath is insignificant or unimportant?
Do not ask me any more questions because I have already aswered enough-
(pay special attention to words in bold)
Question:
If you are going to argue against the 7th day sabbath commandment in the 10 commandments
Do you mean to say, it is also not insignificant and unimportant if we continue to lie, steal and covet neighbours goods
Why single out only the sabbath commandment as being unimportant ?
Waiting for your answer so we can wind up sabbath discusssion
Regards
Waxit
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
(wish I could get the quote function right...!)
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Waxit, you'll like this: I'll partially give you the point about the manna. Certainly it's on the 7th day - from something.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I was reminded of that with this thread. I was open to discussing, or reading along and changing my mind, but not so much when the posts read a little like "Why can't you chowderheads see this?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Indeed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to the biblical topic at hand but I just read it and I find it intriguing.
"They will interpret what you say in light of what they want to hear; and if your advice runs counter to their desires, they will find some way to dismiss your opinion, your so-called expertise. The more powerful the person, the more they are subject to this form of the confirmation bias.
"When investigating confirmation bias in the world, take a look at theories that seem a little too good to be true. Statistics and studies are trotted out to prove them; these are not very difficult to find, once you are convinced of the rightness of your argument. On the internet, it is easy to find studies that support both sides of an argument. In general, you should never accept the validity of people’s ideas because they have supplied “evidence.” Instead, examine the evidence yourself in the cold light of day, with as much skepticism as you can muster. Your first impulse should always be to find the evidence that disconfirms your most cherished beliefs and those of others. That is true science."
Greene, Robert. The Laws of Human Nature (p. 29). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
In terms of our discussion, "evidence" relates to Bible verses. Science would be "biblical research." We seem to know enough to recognize that legitimate understanding of biblical truth acknowledges that there will be apparent contradictions and obvious paradox throughout the accepted scriptures. We all seem to have inherent biases that guide our interpretation of any complex issue, not the least of which would include God's commandments and His Plan for Redemption... given that we generally accept the Bible to be the focus of where God makes his will known.
One such bias, confirmation bias, is the first listed by Mr. Green in his book on Human Nature. That's where I found the quote above.
That's one reason I tried to change my approach to what our friend Gabe was trying to sell us about the sabbath. WE (most of us who have posted on this discussion) seem(ed) to have a common understanding of the issue. We set that understanding to words in response (and resistance) to Gabe's view. I've been able to recognize that I am not always right, and recognize it for years. Not necessarily for the last 34 years, but for more than one or two years.
So I figured I had nothing to lose by giving Gabe the opportunity to make his case without my resistance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Perhaps some of it applies to trying to communicate in print too.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Thanks for that TED talk, Rocky…while watching it I tried to imagine the doctrinal forum in a Zoom meeting format.
On a side note I think you, WordWolf and Twinky tend to be arbitrators and facilitators in a discussion – often very needful “jobs” in doctrinal..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I think you did a good job of trying to do so also.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Thanks, Rocky - but I didn't say that to fish for a compliment - if anything, once I'm done with my little soapbox I do tend to follow suit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I recognize that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.