Universal Salvation or Not? Heaven? Hell? Final Disposition of all who ever lived?

[Raf]

On 10/4/2019 at 3:03 AM, WordWolf said:

To some, the answer is OBLIVION.  We live, and after that, there is nothing whatsoever.  That's perhaps the default position of those who believe there's no Higher Power, no Fate, no Destiny, and so on. There's no reason to live, so there's no reason to exist after "life" in any form.   

I take exception to this. Those of us who believe there's nothing after this life have EVERY reason to live. What we lack is a reason to DIE.

By which I mean, we can understand the value of sacrifice as well as the next patriot (there ARE, in fact, atheists in foxholes), but we understand that sacrifice as being for other people, not for reward.

[WordWolf]

Sorry, I misspoke.  What I meant to say is:  "There's no 'reason' for 'LIFE', so there's no reason to exist after 'life' in any form.   That is, there's no big answer to "We are alive because...."  thus no reason for life,  so there's no great significance to it-  other than whatever significance we GIVE it.  So, likewise, there would be no 'reason', no big answer, that accompanied death. 

We each have one life, and it's everything to US, so naturally we'd like to hang on to it.   Most people agree that if you die, you lose something important.   I was NOT trying to take a shot at anybody, I was trying to make a flat statement of fact that was accurate.  Sometimes around 4am I can miss the mark. 

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Sorry, I misspoke.  What I meant to say is:  "There's no 'reason' for 'LIFE', so there's no reason to exist after 'life' in any form.   That is, there's no big answer to "We are alive because...."  thus no reason for life,  so there's no great significance to it-  other than whatever significance we GIVE it.  So, likewise, there would be no 'reason', no big answer, that accompanied death. 

We each have one life, and it's everything to US, so naturally we'd like to hang on to it.   Most people agree that if you die, you lose something important.   I was NOT trying to take a shot at anybody, I was trying to make a flat statement of fact that was accurate.  Sometimes around 4am I can miss the mark. 

Are you saying that -- There's no 'reason' for 'LIFE', so there's no reason to exist after 'life' in any form -- IS a flat statement of fact that is accurate? 

That seems like a philosophical question/statement. IF you believe and claim it is a statement of fact, please support the claim. It seems odd to me. Maybe if you explain your reasoning, it will help. Thanks.

[WordWolf]

I thought the context of the original post made it clear that I was trying to articulate different PHILOSOPHICAL POSITIONS.  That this was the position was the fact I was trying to outline.   It's like the difference between "The police believe he's involved with this crime"  and "he's involved with this crime."   It's a lot easier to document the fact that the police believe that. 

[Bolshevik]

Plants don't give themselves a reason to live.  That would be silly.

[waysider]

Is that all there is?

[modcat5]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:02 PM, WordWolf said:

Sorry, I misspoke.  What I meant to say is:  "There's no 'reason' for 'LIFE', so there's no reason to exist after 'life' in any form.   That is, there's no big answer to "We are alive because...."  thus no reason for life,  so there's no great significance to it-  other than whatever significance we GIVE it.  So, likewise, there would be no 'reason', no big answer, that accompanied death. 

Accepted.

Raf

[WordWolf]

5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Plants don't give themselves a reason to live.  That would be silly.

Plants also don't participate in discussions on the significance of life, death, and anything beyond that (if there is anything).  Any that are capable of doing so are nevertheless welcome to join this discussion, provided they sign up for this message board first.

[Bolshevik]

19 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Plants also don't participate in discussions on the significance of life, death, and anything beyond that (if there is anything).  Any that are capable of doing so are nevertheless welcome to join this discussion, provided they sign up for this message board first.

Neither can our past selves.  And the always changing significance to life they gave.  So we've all died many times you could say.

Not sure if that files in somewhere already.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

On 10/12/2019 at 12:13 AM, WordWolf said:

I thought the context of the original post made it clear that I was trying to articulate different PHILOSOPHICAL POSITIONS.  

This is how I read your posts when you started this thread with a number of posts. And regarding the Philosophical Positions which we have today and which Wordwolf wrote about. What I see as the most hateful and not loving is eternal torment for a lifetime of so called sin. Since one of the primary teachings in the bible is that God the creator is a God of love. Would God raise someone from the dead to only torture them? For example, a child that dies from cancer or a family car accident before the age of five and was never even introduced to Jesus Christ. From a Christian philosophical perspective should that child be raised from the dead only to torture the child? At least I see that philosophy as crazy and hateful. Fortunately I do not see any crazy and hateful people on this thread. Fortunately,, my view of Christianity is a God of love and this is especially seen with his Son Jesus Christ who gave his life for humanity. 

[TLC]

Mark, do you advocate universal salvation? 

[Mark Sanguinetti]

1 hour ago, TLC said:

Mark, do you advocate universal salvation? 

The word universal is sometimes seen as a negative word. However, the biblical words fire,  reconciliation and judgement do not need to be negative. John the writer of the book of Revelation saw judged and judgment for humanity, but he did not see the final outcome. He instead used figurative symbols in this book of Revelation, for example 12 gates, with Christ like followers on the inside.

Quote

Revelation 21:25-27

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

NIV

The Lamb’s book of life represents Jesus Christ and those who follow him. Only good or pure will enter into this. Next we have verses which show the free will of humanity. The choice being given to humanity of doing good or not doing good. In a favorable way, I see this as the followers of Jesus Christ being fully persuaded in heart to follow Jesus Christ. This is through the gift of Holy Spirit and the new spiritual body patterned after the Lord’s resurrected body that his followers will receive when he returns from heaven. Or as 1 Corinthians 15: 49 says, “so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven”, who is Jesus Christ.  For an explanation of this see 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

Quote

Revelations 22:10-11

10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

NIV

Next we have more symbolic language of those who wash their robes. This shows that those who change from bad to good through Jesus Christ will be able to go through the gates into the city. However, outside of what he thought as the New Jerusalem John still saw those who were bad with him comparing them to dogs. Dogs are seen favorably today, but during the first century before dogs were trained to be good, dogs were symbolically seen as bad. However, just like dogs have been trained today to be good in nations like the United States. In the future under Jesus Christ more and more of humanity will be retrained to be good and followers of Christ. 

Quote

Revelation 22:14-15

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

NIV

What John saw was the free will ability to do good or not do good. However, Paul who made a very large change from being hateful while being one of the main persecutors of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and #1 teacher of the New Testament saw more than John. He saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of sinful mankind.  Here are some of the scriptures that Paul wrote showing all of humanity under Jesus Christ.

Quote

Romans 14:10-11

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

KJV

Ephesians 1:10

10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

KJV

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mark Sanguinetti

[TLC]

Rob Bell skirts the issue better than you. But, evidently neither of you care to address the issue head on. 

[Mark Sanguinetti]

2 hours ago, TLC said:

Rob Bell skirts the issue better than you. But, evidently neither of you care to address the issue head on. 

Feel free to keep covering your eyes after asking a question and getting an answer from actual quoted scriptures.

Quote

Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 
NIV
 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mark Sanguinetti

[TLC]

A simple yes or no doesn't need any more interpretation, much less a master's degree in comprehending Mark Sanguinetti's vague exegesis of scripture. 

[Mark Sanguinetti]

1 Corinthians 13:12

12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror;..

NIV

Our doctrinal and spiritual views are sometimes only a reflection of our mindset. This is the equivalent of looking in a mirror and basing our doctrinal views on what we see or a reflection of our mindset.  For example, if we have hatred for others, then we could see God also as at least sometimes hateful. This is especially seen with some people believing in eternal torment for those who did not believe and follow Jesus Christ in their earthly lives. This is sometimes believed with the figurative and not literal “lake of fire” which according to the end of the book of Revelation some people or the dead will get placed inside of after the second resurrection.

[WordWolf]

Please be kinder to each other, gentlemen.  We can "disagree without being disagreeable."  You're both capable of kindness, politeness, and intelligent conversation.  Please remember that you can do so.  I believe both of you can agree that Christ died for EACH of you.  Please consider that before taking shots at each other.   Thank you both.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Next we have more symbolic language of those who wash their robes. This shows that those who change from bad to good through Jesus Christ will be able to go through the gates into the city. However, outside of what he thought as the New Jerusalem John still saw those who were bad with him comparing them to dogs. Dogs are seen favorably today, but during the first century before dogs were trained to be good, dogs were symbolically seen as bad. However, just like dogs have been trained today to be good in nations like the United States. In the future under Jesus Christ more and more of humanity will be retrained to be good and followers of Christ. Then and only then they will be able to enter in through the gates into the city, that represents the savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:14-15

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

NIV

Revelation 22:14-15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

KJV

[TLC]

When did (or do) these words stop being true?

Matthew 7

[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Edited October 18, 2019 by TLC

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Quote

Matthew 7:1-27

1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. 

6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 

7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 

9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. 

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 

15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' 
 

24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." 
NIV
 

 

It looks like Jesus Christ in this teaching is addressing Hateful Hypocrites. I hope that we do not have any on this forum.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Mark Sanguinetti

[WordWolf]

TLC's question WAS on topic.  Unfortunately for TLC (and, perhaps for us), you're not required to address it, neither in a short nor a long answer.   If you used a long answer, you could go a long way into explaining why you think  he's incorrect, and possibly get him to change his thinking.  If not him, maybe one of the silent readers of the thread (I think there's always a few.)    One discussion here once caused me to completely reverse my thinking on a subject even though I almost never participated in it.