Right before our very eyes......we see the Revival and Restoration Group Phasing in a Splinter.
They have those weekly "teachings" that are put on their website........claiming a pseudo-mantle of teaching the word.
Now......they are in the process of promoting a camp get-together next June.
Then.....they will establish hierarchy in the group and push for a central location.
Voila......phasing in a splinter in 3 easy steps.
On 10/30/2019 at 8:35 AM, Taxidev said:
Even though I walked away from them, I must disagree with you. First, they've been doing large gatherings since their first year. I know a few people who have gone and it was just like a huge limb meeting, with pre-designated teachers. I didn't bother going.
Second, I have yet to get any indication that they want a "central location", just like they don't want anyone's money. You are speculating unless, of course, you have received revelation that they are intending to do that.
My statements do not, in any way, mean I now support them. But just as I have defended a certain politician, who I can't stand, I also defend them, who I have no interest in.
Taxidev, two things might help to clear this up.....
1. I inserted this link as a reason to explain my reasoning, Phasing in a Splinter. In expounding on phase #3.........I stated, "Phase #3 of Securing a Central Headquarters [BRC/Church].....like CFF, Finnegan's group, Hendricks group, etc......is essential. Maybe Dottie Moynihan will open up her family wealth's checkbook and give a hefty donation.....or one of the others. But....just to be having weekly teachings on Facebook is going to fizzle.......soon. Teachings going out into the ethereal of humanity will NOT alone sustain the human spirit. I highly suspect that MANY of these self-appointed corps have been planning these phases already!!!
From all that I have gathered in studying how wierwille and other splinters garner movement.......they must operate from a "central office or headquarters." Wierwille clearly understood this and was claiming in December 1957, even though it was a RENTAL HOME IN VAN WERT, that they had a new headquarters. Look at all the other splinters...... like CES/STFI, CFF, S.O.W.E.R.S. or when Geer moved from Gartmore to Maine......what do all of these have in common?
If the central office is NOT established.......then, imo......those teachings are going to fizzle in impacting/building a movement.
Now, you can disagree with my assessment.......but I have historical evidence to back up this statement.
2. As you stated....."I have YET to get any indication that they want a 'central location'......" The operative word in this is........YET.
Maybe it will take 3 or 4 or even 5 years ........ but if they want to grow in impact, then they will need a central office and/or building. Doug McMull!n owned property in MS and thus, S.O.W.E.R.S. was grounded in Mississippi. Look around. This concept is not rocket science.
Taxidev, two things might help to clear this up.....
1. I inserted this link as a reason to explain my reasoning, Phasing in a Splinter. In expounding on phase #3.........I stated, "Phase #3 of Securing a Central Headquarters [BRC/Church].....like CFF, Finnegan's group, Hendricks group, etc......is essential. Maybe Dottie Moynihan will open up her family wealth's checkbook and give a hefty donation.....or one of the others. But....just to be having weekly teachings on Facebook is going to fizzle.......soon. Teachings going out into the ethereal of humanity will NOT alone sustain the human spirit. I highly suspect that MANY of these self-appointed corps have been planning these phases already!!!
From all that I have gathered in studying how wierwille and other splinters garner movement.......they must operate from a "central office or headquarters." Wierwille clearly understood this and was claiming in December 1957, even though it was a RENTAL HOME IN VAN WERT, that they had a new headquarters. Look at all the other splinters...... like CES/STFI, CFF, S.O.W.E.R.S. or when Geer moved from Gartmore to Maine......what do all of these have in common?
If the central office is NOT established.......then, imo......those teachings are going to fizzle in impacting/building a movement.
Now, you can disagree with my assessment.......but I have historical evidence to back up this statement.
2. As you stated....."I have YET to get any indication that they want a 'central location'......" The operative word in this is........YET.
Maybe it will take 3 or 4 or even 5 years ........ but if they want to grow in impact, then they will need a central office and/or building. Doug McMull!n owned property in MS and thus, S.O.W.E.R.S. was grounded in Mississippi. Look around. This concept is not rocket science.
Peace.
Taxidev,
I was confident Skyrider would reply. Therefore, I didn't want to speak for him. However, the expressions, "put two and two together" and "connect the dots," have been referenced (explained indirectly) to you (taxidev) in prior (other threads) discussions. This is a poignant and salient example of the Greek word, "sunesis."
Cognate: 4907 sýnesis (from 4920 /syníēmi) – properly, facts joined together for holistic understanding, i.e. synthesized reasoning that joins implicit (indirect) truths for comprehension. See also 4920 (syníēmi).
For the believer, this "connects the dots" through sanctified, inductive reasoning (done under God). This positive use of 4907 /sýnesis ("synthesized understanding") occurs in: Mk 12:23; Lk 2:47; Eph 3:4; Col 1:9,22; 2 Tim 2:7.
If the central office is NOT established.......then, imo......those teachings are going to fizzle in impacting/building a movement.
I understand this, and I agree with it's most likely outcome. But I still find it presumptuous to say this is what they will do, based on others doing it.
9 hours ago, skyrider said:
But....just to be having weekly teachings on Facebook is going to fizzle.......soon.
They have their own web site where they post the recorded teachings, and they have a dial-in setup to listen live. Much better than Facebook. Still, I don't see it building any significant momentum, as you brought up. I already stepped away, I wonder how many others have.
3 hours ago, Rocky said:
I hope this insight comes together for you.
I understand sunesis, but I don't see that in this situation. I find it presumptuous and speculative to say they will do the same thing as other splinters. They still insist they don't want any money. But, I am not saying they won't. I don't know any more than anyone else at this point. I only know what I've seen and heard of them, which is no indication that they intend to centralize a location.
They have their inner circle of control over the group, which existed from the beginning. In today's technical world there is no need to have a brick-and-mortar location any more than a retail outlet needs one.
I understand this, and I agree with it's most likely outcome. But I still find it presumptuous to say this is what they will do, based on others doing it.
They have their own web site where they post the recorded teachings, and they have a dial-in setup to listen live. Much better than Facebook. Still, I don't see it building any significant momentum, as you brought up. I already stepped away, I wonder how many others have.
I understand sunesis, but I don't see that in this situation. I find it presumptuous and speculative to say they will do the same thing as other splinters. They still insist they don't want any money. But, I am not saying they won't. I don't know any more than anyone else at this point. I only know what I've seen and heard of them, which is no indication that they intend to centralize a location.
They have their inner circle of control over the group, which existed from the beginning. In today's technical world there is no need to have a brick-and-mortar location any more than a retail outlet needs one.
Well.......the "tried and true method" of splinter groups is to establish a central office or location.
Central Office = spiritual authority, central planning, bookstore, material, pamphlet and newsletter distribution, collection of tithes and offerings
Building or Church = teaching services, events, leaders' meetings, events, reunions, children's activities, camps, etc.
If there is NO "brick-and-mortar".......then, I believe that Teachings going out into the ethereal of humanity will NOT alone sustain the human spirit.
Also, NO class-tier structure to follow in R&R.....commitment steps 1, 2 and 3.
These guys better "follow the yellow brick road to Oz"........or people are going to lose interest fast. LOL
I understand this, and I agree with it's most likely outcome. But I still find it presumptuous to say this is what they will do, based on others doing it.
They have their own web site where they post the recorded teachings, and they have a dial-in setup to listen live. Much better than Facebook. Still, I don't see it building any significant momentum, as you brought up. I already stepped away, I wonder how many others have.
I understand sunesis, but I don't see that in this situation. I find it presumptuous and speculative to say they will do the same thing as other splinters. They still insist they don't want any money. But, I am not saying they won't. I don't know any more than anyone else at this point. I only know what I've seen and heard of them, which is no indication that they intend to centralize a location.
They have their inner circle of control over the group, which existed from the beginning. In today's technical world there is no need to have a brick-and-mortar location any more than a retail outlet needs one.
I wholeheartedly believe you when you say you don't see it in this situation. There's a difference between understanding what the Greek word means and actually connecting the dots in this situation.
As a teacher once said (or maybe he said it thousands of times), "it's as plain as the nose on my face."
I forget which comedian explained the stages of drinking and drunkenness at a bar. Early stages had the person keeping track of how much sleep they could get before work tomorrow morning, and arguing against artificial turf in stadiums and so on. Later stages had him arguing for artificial turf, and later deciding that he might as well stay up all night before work, since he was still up. He staggered out of the bar, and was struck by the sunlight- smashing into him like God's Flashlight. He got home, and said a prayer. "Lord, if you get me through this, I'll never go out drinking again..."- say it with me guys- "...AS LONG AS I LIVE"- and some of us add the coda at the end- "...and this time, I MEAN it."
Ok, we have twi leaders who consented to the corruption, reaped its benefits, turned a blind eye to suffering, and so on. They left twi one day, then started up their own WHOLESOME ministry- and a few years later, the legalism started, the rules came down, the doctrine was locked, discussion and dissent were banned, and the money was solicited. Then the next set of leaders did the exact same steps. Then the NEXT set of leaders did the exact same steps. As did the NEXT set of leaders. But this time, now the CURRENT leaders who jumped ship, THESE are going to get it RIGHT and do the right thing and NOT make their own money-making venture, because these will succeed where all the others failed before them.
Which poster's signature was "The lessons repeat until they are learned"?
As top-tier corps/clergy (cough, cough) splinter from twi.......soon thereafter, some of wierwille's hard-core men desire to subjugate others with new, ongoing teachings, classes and weekends that you just can't miss [and the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round]. In the immortal words of The Church Lady from Saturday Night Live................"How Conveeenient."
Subjugate --- 1. to bring under control or subjection; conquer 2. to cause to become subservient; subdue
Looking back at wierwille's ministry and corps program........I believe that subjugating was the core of the corps program.
Wierwille did NOT design a "leadership program." THAT was all a deceptive tactic. Wierwille designed a FOLLOWship program wherein the youth were subjugated to his control.......and corps women were subjugated to his sexual predation!! He sat back and picked his prey. He targeted the innocent and vulnerable into his classes and programs. Isolation. Immersion. Intimidation. Indoctrination. Idolization.
Classes can have profit........or........classes can be steppingstones to indoctrination.
Already, we see that Rico has a foundational, intermediate and advanced class/course to offer. THEN.......how about a special weekend in Montana? Enjoy some hiking, fishing, kick-back relaxing and all. Is this good? Or, is this to get you to drop your guard.........and start the CULT PROGRAMMING all over again?
HOW does this happen AGAIN?
HOW does someone throw off the shackles of twi's hypocrisy and absolute power over the individual.......THEN, fall again into a splinter group that runs classes, demands tithing and claim that they are, indeed, the ones to follow? It nearly baffles the mind to see how some are so easily persuaded against their own will and better judgment to repeat the same cycle. Especially those who follow those corps "leaders" who are ADAMANT that wierwille was "the man of God" who walked by revelation. And, most notably.......those who pattern the SAME pyramid organization from afar, the SAME class structure, the SAME clichés and the SAME approach that "humble yourselves and our classes will answer your questions."
Are you someone who prefers the life of those institutionalized?
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all. I am thankful for the time I spent in The Way in spite of the problems. I got tremendously blessed by learning to get into the Bible and by all the friends I made who also loved God. I am very sorry for those who had bad experiences. I also eventually left the ministry and have since read about the abuses that some experienced. Still, God used the ministry for good in my life and the lives of many others. It sucks that the ministry was ruined by a few corrupt individuals. I left in 1990.
The ministry wasn't "ruined by a few corrupt individuals". The ministry was corrupt from its very inception, clear back to when Wierwille decided to steal the works of other people and claim they were the results of his own research or that God had given them to him by revelation. That being said, there were a lot of wonderful people that passed through The Way. Many good experiences were mixed with the bad. In no way does that excuse the reality of The Way's truly corrupt nature.
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all. I am thankful for the time I spent in The Way in spite of the problems. I got tremendously blessed by learning to get into the Bible and by all the friends I made who also loved God. I am very sorry for those who had bad experiences. I also eventually left the ministry and have since read about the abuses that some experienced. Still, God used the ministry for good in my life and the lives of many others. It sucks that the ministry was ruined by a few corrupt individuals. I left in 1990.
Evidence? You see none because it is subjective. "Beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm glad for you're thankfulness for your experiences.
Most, if not all of them, still promote "magic thinking" (AKA the law of believing). I'm not trying to start a controversy but the Way version of positive thinking can and has gotten people killed. If it's evidence you seek, look no further than the L.E.A.D. debacle.
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all.
I think its importaint to note that not all splinter groups are the same. I don't have a lot of experiance with splinter groups, but I know some people in newer groups like Revival and Restoration and Oikeios well enough to say that they are genuinely doing what they believe is the best way for them to serve God, but this is not to say that is the case with all people in splinter groups. The most gruesome example of how splinter groups can go awry is the story of Victor Barnard's River Road Fellowship. There are a number of threads about it here if you would like to learn more. To be clear, I am not saying that any other splinter group is like the River Road Fellowship, but it serves as a warning of what can go wrong. If your leadership is open and transparent I wouldn't fear much from them, but if they are not, be careful.
Also I'm also happy to see that you are thankful for your experiances. It is too easy for us here to become crass and unthankful about our experiances in the Way and forget all the good that we experianced there.
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all. I am thankful for the time I spent in The Way in spite of the problems. I got tremendously blessed by learning to get into the Bible and by all the friends I made who also loved God. I am very sorry for those who had bad experiences. I also eventually left the ministry and have since read about the abuses that some experienced. Still, God used the ministry for good in my life and the lives of many others. It sucks that the ministry was ruined by a few corrupt individuals. I left in 1990.
Hi St. Christopher, and welcome to Grease Spot!
I think you have a good attitude about things – I can relate to that – I am thankful for all the good people I met and the good stuff I learned while in TWI. I can’t speak to the topic of splinter groups since I’ve never gotten involved with one after I left TWI. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of TWI and what went wrong – so here’s my two cents.
I tend to think that wierwille was probably a poser from the get-go. I am not one to portray him as the devil incarnate. Nor do I get into judging whether or not he was a born again Christian – I’ll leave that up to the Lord Jesus Christ. However, actions do speak louder than words – and Jesus Christ did warn us of false prophets as ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing, saying you will recognize them by their fruits ( Matthew 7: 15 -20 ) – so obviously he expects us to be discerning to some degree (and I use the word “discerning” in the normal dictionary definition which means simply having good judgment )…What does a poser do? The person pretends they are something they are not in order to gain something from others. There is a vast body of evidence - facts, information and witnesses available to indicate that wierwille was a liar, a thief and a cheat as far back as the beginning of his ministry.
Why I think it’s difficult for some TWI-believers to see its cultic attributes is because they don't really look past the Christian veneer on the surface. After all, the supposed centerpiece of TWI is something familiar to a lot of folks – the Bible. Folks might be interested in the book Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire - which covers many of the logical fallacies and manipulative techniques used by cults.
Another thing which makes this Christian veneer almost impenetrable to TWI-believers is the subliminal way in which “God’s ministry” had become almost synonymous with “God’s Word” – with such an air of arrogant superiority and disdain for those outside the fold, TWI leaders often proclaimed “we have more of the rightly-divided Word of God than any other group”. Instilling meekness (which is a nice way of saying submissiveness) is best done on a slow-boil. It starts out first as a fundamentalist viewpoint of the Bible – which is a strict literal interpretation of the Bible such as in the PFAL class. (By the way, Fundamentalism is not limited to a belief in God – it can also refer to any creed that mandates a strict obedience to a particular set of beliefs such as Fascism, Nazism, Communism, etc.) I tend to think that over time, the authoritative nature of Fundamentalism becomes suffused with how folks perceive and interact with the ministry. To question the ministry is akin to questioning the Word. A true believer just doesn’t do that.
Once you become a follower of TWI you are expected to go and tell others just like they did in the book of Acts – hey, no pressure, the “sales” strategy is simple - tap into the warm market of friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc. the same strategy as oddly enough, multi-level marketing schemes…Folks might be interested in the Huff Post article on the similarities of MLM and Cults - briefly mentions such cult tactics as love-bombing, deception, financial exploitation, guilt, shame and fear.
In the big picture - there's some kind of creepy dynamics in how TWI works - a weird type of symbiotic relationship - which science says “…is a close relationship between two species in which at least one species benefits. For the other species, the relationship may be positive, negative, or neutral” –but if I may borrow the idea – TWI may be like a strange symbiotic relationship between two kinds of people – those who are truly kind & helpful and those who are Pharisee-grade cruel, harmful and exploitative. . Just to be clear, TWI as the whole enchilada is based on the lies, deceit and delusions of a con artist, wierwille and still continues to this day grooming leadership to exploit followers. II Peter 2 is similar to Jesus’ warning in Matthew 7 – it speaks of false prophets and false teachers and says “In their greed these teachers will exploit you…”Overall, the dominant characteristic of TWI has always been parasitic – habitually…selfishly using people.
...as a side note - maybe there's another perhaps spiritual dimension - or just from my perspective anyway – I think there were times when it was God working behind the scenes along with some good and kind TWI-believer helping me get through some tough times...And there were also times when it must have been God alone who helped me hang in there despite how much some TWI-a$$hole tried to crush my soul.
Having been through the WOW program and especially the Way Corps training program I really got a bead on TWI’s cult tactics after I left and began to deeply reflect on my experience. I don’t think your average TWI-believer (who is NOT way corps) has a clue of the actual nuts and bolts of an abusive organization like TWI.
At the local level – twig or branch – you might have a good person running things – even a way corps person - maybe even clergy (good people come in all shapes and sizes) and everything is just peachy keen. Another thing I might add - a lot of good and kind way corps leadership were almost like a buffer to cushion the impact of the harmful $hit that came out of headquarters.
God forbid you should have some TWI-a$$hole (TWI-a$$holes come in all shapes and sizes too – and tend to get bent all out of shape and want to cut you down below their exaggerated size if you don’t toe the corporate line). So maybe “can’t see the forest for the trees” might explain why some folks at the local level – for whatever reason - scratch their heads and ask “what went wrong?” – and then leave and join a splinter group. They were only involved at the local level and did not see the big picture.
Like I said, I can’t speak from experience about splinter groups. I just think if it involves regurgitating wierwille-dogma, whitewashing wierwille and preserving his fan base I’m not interested.
I think its importaint to note that not all splinter groups are the same. I don't have a lot of experiance with splinter groups, but I know some people in newer groups like Revival and Restoration and Oikeios well enough to say that they are genuinely doing what they believe is the best way for them to serve God, but this is not to say that is the case with all people in splinter groups. The most gruesome example of how splinter groups can go awry is the story of Victor Barnard's River Road Fellowship. There are a number of threads about it here if you would like to learn more. To be clear, I am not saying that any other splinter group is like the River Road Fellowship, but it serves as a warning of what can go wrong. If your leadership is open and transparent I wouldn't fear much from them, but if they are not, be careful.
Also I'm also happy to see that you are thankful for your experiances. It is too easy for us here to become crass and unthankful about our experiances in the Way and forget all the good that we experianced there.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again-
I'M GLAD I GOT IN, AND I'M GLAD I GOT OUT.
That having been said, the R&R people aren't the worst of the splinters, but they're hardly trustworthy, either. This is the group of people who planned to jump ship rather deliberately. Months before the meeting where they claimed it was about PRIMARILY trying to get twi to change, they registered "revivalandrestoration.com" as a URL. They also scouted around the top brass that weren't directly in charge, and tested the waters, asking who was interested in leaving and making a new organization. Months after THAT came the meeting where they claimed to want to reform twi and that's it. Monhs after THAT came the notice that rfr and the others weren't going to budge, so now we had to consider our options. At least a month after THAT was the announcement that they were going to start up R&R.
So, don't think you were dealt with entirely honestly. Their pfficial story was that they did their best to get twi to change. Only after that failed did they consider splitting off and starting a new group. The opposite was true- they set things up to start a new group, then went to twi and failed to get change to happen.
These are the same leaders who were fine with things for decades. As they approached retirement, they reconsidered their options, and now they're running their own show. Things were fine until it was convenient for them to leave, then SUDDENLY things needed to be addressed.
I forget which comedian explained the stages of drinking and drunkenness at a bar. Early stages had the person keeping track of how much sleep they could get before work tomorrow morning, and arguing against artificial turf in stadiums and so on. Later stages had him arguing for artificial turf, and later deciding that he might as well stay up all night before work, since he was still up. He staggered out of the bar, and was struck by the sunlight- smashing into him like God's Flashlight. He got home, and said a prayer. "Lord, if you get me through this, I'll never go out drinking again..."- say it with me guys- "...AS LONG AS I LIVE"- and some of us add the coda at the end- "...and this time, I MEAN it."
Ok, we have twi leaders who consented to the corruption, reaped its benefits, turned a blind eye to suffering, and so on. They left twi one day, then started up their own WHOLESOME ministry- and a few years later, the legalism started, the rules came down, the doctrine was locked, discussion and dissent were banned, and the money was solicited. Then the next set of leaders did the exact same steps. Then the NEXT set of leaders did the exact same steps. As did the NEXT set of leaders. But this time, now the CURRENT leaders who jumped ship, THESE are going to get it RIGHT and do the right thing and NOT make their own money-making venture, because these will succeed where all the others failed before them.
Which poster's signature was "The lessons repeat until they are learned"?
That having been said, the R&R people aren't the worst of the splinters, but they're hardly trustworthy, either. This is the group of people who planned to jump ship rather deliberately. Months before the meeting where they claimed it was about PRIMARILY trying to get twi to change, they registered "revivalandrestoration.com" as a URL. They also scouted around the top brass that weren't directly in charge, and tested the waters, asking who was interested in leaving and making a new organization. Months after THAT came the meeting where they claimed to want to reform twi and that's it. Monhs after THAT came the notice that rfr and the others weren't going to budge, so now we had to consider our options. At least a month after THAT was the announcement that they were going to start up R&R.
So, don't think you were dealt with entirely honestly. Their pfficial story was that they did their best to get twi to change. Only after that failed did they consider splitting off and starting a new group. The opposite was true- they set things up to start a new group, then went to twi and failed to get change to happen.
These are the same leaders who were fine with things for decades. As they approached retirement, they reconsidered their options, and now they're running their own show. Things were fine until it was convenient for them to leave, then SUDDENLY things needed to be addressed.
To be fair, they had been trying to bring many of the issues before leadership for years before they decided to split away and the prospects for successful negotiations were slim. I know that a number of the R&R leaders are complicit in the Martindale era purges and that also brings up important questions, but I don't buy the line that this is all about money. I don't believe that R&R takes donations and at least some of its leaders have normal jobs like everyone else. Okieos is more suspicious, but at least they have taken the step of making their finances public, which is something TWI would never do.
On 5/22/2020 at 8:07 AM, St. Christopher said:
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all. I am thankful for the time I spent in The Way in spite of the problems. I got tremendously blessed by learning to get into the Bible and by all the friends I made who also loved God. I am very sorry for those who had bad experiences. I also eventually left the ministry and have since read about the abuses that some experienced. Still, God used the ministry for good in my life and the lives of many others. It sucks that the ministry was ruined by a few corrupt individuals. I left in 1990.
Thanks for your question, St. Christopher..........
Spirit and Truth Fellowship International (formerly Christian Educational Services) ...... in 1987, John Lynn and others wrote a 37-page report to state their official stance against twi. Without going into all its depth, suffice it to say that these clergymen and others strongly felt that The Way International was headed in the wrong direction. Fast-forward some 25 years (1987-2002).....and this splinter group was splintering. Factions developed. Other perversions. Rev. John Lynn became a big promoter of Momentus....a perverse, self-help "therapy." A staged confrontation. Getting someone to reveal very private information in a public format and then verbally assault that person to produce guilt, shame, etc. Some have said that Rev. Bo Reah-rd (1st corps) was an advocate of Momentus.
Victor Barnard (14th Corps) ......Accused Sex Predator. Read this link. This corps guy left twi and, with others, established a secluded camp of followers and young maidens that parents gave consent to. Parents ALLOWED victor barnard to have sex with their daughters (ages 14-19 ??).....SICK!
Christopher Geer (Gartmore) ...... Some refer to him as psycho-Geer. European corps program......run with gestapo tactics. Belligerent, over-bearing dominance over every aspect at Gartmore. Micro-managed to death. Later, fled back to the States.....and franchised his classes. Opportunist. Manipulator Extraordinaire.
Ex-Corps Coordinators ......... who have started splinter groups. There have been many corps coordinators in twi thru the years.....who've exited and THEN, started their own splinter groups. Wrenn, Geer, Lynn, Moynihan, Fort, Horney, Magnelli.....ties to splinter groups. Deeply entrenched in training the corps, these guys are tethered to the Wierwille Brand and CANNOT forsake it. Thus, they regurgitate the material, but never examine ALL THE FAILINGS AND FAILURES.
Some Splinter Groups ......... I have heard that some groups stay small and local. Through the years, they have their living room fellowships and teach inspiring teachings to one another. How much they deviate from twi.....I don't know. Obviously, they do NOT want to be tied to The Way International nor send their hard-earned abundant sharing to a distant overlord. WHY? If twi's doctrine (and practice) is SO godly......then why decouple? THAT is the deep, intriguing question of the splinter groups?
Money and Power .......... in my opinion, thousands upon thousands of followers thru the years find it disturbing that The Way International never gives back to their local community, nor to faithful followers. Whether there is tragedy, financial hardship, health issues, etc......twi does NOT give financially to support in times of need. Twi is a HOARDING MACHINE. Twi's stated position is that "We teach the Word" ...... and that is their SOLE responsibility. Pppffffttt. At present, twi hoards $68 Million. This is sin. Twi has been a pseudo-Christian organization (at best) ever since its inception. At worse.....wierwille was a false teacher and wolf in sheep's clothing.
The scriptures show us in the Book of Acts of a man called Simon who was giving out himself as some great one (Acts 8:9). The people gave heed to him. The followers heralded him by saying "This man is the great power of God." Well, what about wierwille? He received unbridled adulation from twi's followers. Yet......in all my years in twi, I never saw wierwille operate any of the (big) six manifestations, 1) word of knowledge, 2) word of wisdom, 3) spiritual discernment, 4) faith, 5) miracles or 6) healing. Not one!!
Splinter group leaders talk a big game......yet, what do THEY do?
We, as Christians, are commanded to know them by their fruit. Well, what has been the fruit of wierwille's twi? Lying, stealing, plagiarism, drunkenness, sexual predation, strikers, deceivers, seducers, false teachings, mark/avoid character assassinations, corps indoctrinations, exploiting the good will and gifts of others, etc. etc. etc.
You, St. Christopher may be of strong and moral character........but wierwille, and many of his corps coordinators and region leaders were NOT.
Some of the plagiarized material had/has spiritual substance.....and many cleave to these truths. But those who've encountered the ugly side of wierwille/twi saw the RED FLAGS and exited for greener pastures. To this day, many are thankful for these truths from biblical men of the ages.
GreaseSpot Café helps people to discern the good, the bad and the ugly.
To be fair, they had been trying to bring many of the issues before leadership for years before they decided to split away and the prospects for successful negotiations were slim. I know that a number of the R&R leaders are complicit in the Martindale era purges and that also brings up important questions, but I don't buy the line that this is all about money. I don't believe that R&R takes donations and at least some of its leaders have normal jobs like everyone else. Okieos is more suspicious, but at least they have taken the step of making their finances public, which is something TWI would never do.
My educational background is in accounting.
There's a LOT that the 2019 Oikeos financial statement does NOT disclose. If you'd like me to expound, you are welcome to ask.
To be fair, they had been trying to bring many of the issues before leadership for years before they decided to split away and the prospects for successful negotiations were slim. I know that a number of the R&R leaders are complicit in the Martindale era purges and that also brings up important questions, but I don't buy the line that this is all about money. I don't believe that R&R takes donations and at least some of its leaders have normal jobs like everyone else. Okieos is more suspicious, but at least they have taken the step of making their finances public, which is something TWI would never do.
1) I think glossing over their complicity to the Martindale purges and rfr's draconian policies that are only reined in when a lawyer insists they must be is the wrong approach. (If your "Christian" group exploits its workers and only stops when lawyers and law enforcement say they have to stop- as with twi- then your group is not as "Christian" as it claims to be.) They were perfectly comfortable with that for DECADES. That's not some piddling little detail. It says a lot about what they value more.
2) Nobody said it was "ALL about money." Some is about money- thus the timing when retirement is looming. Some is about POWER- now they can make the decisions. Some of it is about AUTHORITY- now other people hang on what THEY say. Some of it is about prestige and privilege- they have titles with cachet now, and possibly some of the chief seats. But dismissing all of that because itá not "ALL about money" is a convenient way to blow off a position you don't like. (Make up a caricature of that position, knock it down, then pretend that was the actual position, and you can dismiss the original position casually.) I don't think you MEANT to do that, but it looks like you were definitely in that neighborhood.
3) Last I heard, there was a "donate" button on R&R's Facebook page, which you can't see unless logged in. So, casual inspection may not make it obvious. BTW, just because they ALSO have normal jobs doesn't mean much. Having a standard source of income, among other things, makes it easier to hide "slush fund" expenditures. It also keeps the lights on at home.
There's a LOT that the 2019 Oikeos financial statement does NOT disclose. If you'd like me to expound, you are welcome to ask.
I found it interesting/terrifying that one of the entries was listed as "Orlando Lockbox" and also that there are no details about what was done with the revenue. Feel free to share any more shennanigans that you've found.
15 hours ago, WordWolf said:
1) I think glossing over their complicity to the Martindale purges and rfr's draconian policies that are only reined in when a lawyer insists they must be is the wrong approach. (If your "Christian" group exploits its workers and only stops when lawyers and law enforcement say they have to stop- as with twi- then your group is not as "Christian" as it claims to be.) They were perfectly comfortable with that for DECADES. That's not some piddling little detail. It says a lot about what they value more.
2) Nobody said it was "ALL about money." Some is about money- thus the timing when retirement is looming. Some is about POWER- now they can make the decisions. Some of it is about AUTHORITY- now other people hang on what THEY say. Some of it is about prestige and privilege- they have titles with cachet now, and possibly some of the chief seats. But dismissing all of that because itá not "ALL about money" is a convenient way to blow off a position you don't like. (Make up a caricature of that position, knock it down, then pretend that was the actual position, and you can dismiss the original position casually.) I don't think you MEANT to do that, but it looks like you were definitely in that neighborhood.
3) Last I heard, there was a "donate" button on R&R's Facebook page, which you can't see unless logged in. So, casual inspection may not make it obvious. BTW, just because they ALSO have normal jobs doesn't mean much. Having a standard source of income, among other things, makes it easier to hide "slush fund" expenditures. It also keeps the lights on at home.
1) I know people who still can make the mental gymnastics of justifying these things. I don't feel like I am in a position to judge their hearts' intents even though I know that their logic is off. Some I believe have honest intentions, but only the Lord really knows. Honestly, I think this is the most destructive thing about TWI: people can do horrible and destructive things and still genuinely believe that they are in the right.
BTW can you point me to a thread that has more details about this worker exploitation story, I've only heard it referenced in passing.
2) Thanks for clarifying your position on the role of money, I stand corrected.
Although you might be right, I wouldn't make too much of their age as most people in TWI are also bordering on retirement.
I found it interesting/terrifying that one of the entries was listed as "Orlando Lockbox" and also that there are no details about what was done with the revenue. Feel free to share any more shenanigans that you've found.
Well, I didn't exactly do much of an examination, just a glance. But you figured out one of the key problems with that revenue/expense statement. There are several items that are not well explained. Just because some items were aggregated and then summarized with certain account labels, doesn't tell the reader of the statement much of anything at all.
In my mind, there would need to be an explanation for the group's chart of accounts AND a CPA audit statement qualifying whether generally accepted accounting procedures (GAAP)/standards were consistently employed/applied.
IOW, that financial statement tells a little (very little) but may hide more than it reveals.
I found it interesting/terrifying that one of the entries was listed as "Orlando Lockbox" and also that there are no details about what was done with the revenue. Feel free to share any more shennanigans that you've found.
1) I know people who still can make the mental gymnastics of justifying these things. I don't feel like I am in a position to judge their hearts' intents even though I know that their logic is off. Some I believe have honest intentions, but only the Lord really knows. Honestly, I think this is the most destructive thing about TWI: people can do horrible and destructive things and still genuinely believe that they are in the right.
BTW can you point me to a thread that has more details about this worker exploitation story, I've only heard it referenced in passing.
2) Thanks for clarifying your position on the role of money, I stand corrected.
Although you might be right, I wouldn't make too much of their age as most people in TWI are also bordering on retirement.
1) Lots of people throughout history can say the same. The SS wore belt buckles that said "God is with us". Religious wars usually have both sides say it at the same time.
2) For that matter, there's probably some sincere, nice stuff in among the "I'm in this for me" stuff- but it's like leaven- a little corruption is all you need to poison a religious organization.
3) There were discussions post-lawsuits about how twi suddenly made a bunch of sweeping changes that brought them into conformity with legal requirements, like work hours a week and so on. I don't remember a specific thread dedicated to it, so I'll have to hunt for them when I can.
Thanks for your question, St. Christopher..........
Spirit and Truth Fellowship International (formerly Christian Educational Services) ...... in 1987, John Lynn and others wrote a 37-page report to state their official stance against twi. Without going into all its depth, suffice it to say that these clergymen and others strongly felt that The Way International was headed in the wrong direction. Fast-forward some 25 years (1987-2002).....and this splinter group was splintering. Factions developed. Other perversions. Rev. John Lynn became a big promoter of Momentus....a perverse, self-help "therapy." A staged confrontation. Getting someone to reveal very private information in a public format and then verbally assault that person to produce guilt, shame, etc. Some have said that Rev. Bo Reah-rd (1st corps) was an advocate of Momentus.
Victor Barnard (14th Corps) ......Accused Sex Predator. Read this link. This corps guy left twi and, with others, established a secluded camp of followers and young maidens that parents gave consent to. Parents ALLOWED victor barnard to have sex with their daughters (ages 14-19 ??).....SICK!
Christopher Geer (Gartmore) ...... Some refer to him as psycho-Geer. European corps program......run with gestapo tactics. Belligerent, over-bearing dominance over every aspect at Gartmore. Micro-managed to death. Later, fled back to the States.....and franchised his classes. Opportunist. Manipulator Extraordinaire.
Ex-Corps Coordinators ......... who have started splinter groups. There have been many corps coordinators in twi thru the years.....who've exited and THEN, started their own splinter groups. Wrenn, Geer, Lynn, Moynihan, Fort, Horney, Magnelli.....ties to splinter groups. Deeply entrenched in training the corps, these guys are tethered to the Wierwille Brand and CANNOT forsake it. Thus, they regurgitate the material, but never examine ALL THE FAILINGS AND FAILURES.
Some Splinter Groups ......... I have heard that some groups stay small and local. Through the years, they have their living room fellowships and teach inspiring teachings to one another. How much they deviate from twi.....I don't know. Obviously, they do NOT want to be tied to The Way International nor send their hard-earned abundant sharing to a distant overlord. WHY? If twi's doctrine (and practice) is SO godly......then why decouple? THAT is the deep, intriguing question of the splinter groups?
Money and Power .......... in my opinion, thousands upon thousands of followers thru the years find it disturbing that The Way International never gives back to their local community, nor to faithful followers. Whether there is tragedy, financial hardship, health issues, etc......twi does NOT give financially to support in times of need. Twi is a HOARDING MACHINE. Twi's stated position is that "We teach the Word" ...... and that is their SOLE responsibility. Pppffffttt. At present, twi hoards $68 Million. This is sin. Twi has been a pseudo-Christian organization (at best) ever since its inception. At worse.....wierwille was a false teacher and wolf in sheep's clothing.
The scriptures show us in the Book of Acts of a man called Simon who was giving out himself as some great one (Acts 8:9). The people gave heed to him. The followers heralded him by saying "This man is the great power of God." Well, what about wierwille? He received unbridled adulation from twi's followers. Yet......in all my years in twi, I never saw wierwille operate any of the (big) six manifestations, 1) word of knowledge, 2) word of wisdom, 3) spiritual discernment, 4) faith, 5) miracles or 6) healing. Not one!!
Splinter group leaders talk a big game......yet, what do THEY do?
We, as Christians, are commanded to know them by their fruit. Well, what has been the fruit of wierwille's twi? Lying, stealing, plagiarism, drunkenness, sexual predation, strikers, deceivers, seducers, false teachings, mark/avoid character assassinations, corps indoctrinations, exploiting the good will and gifts of others, etc. etc. etc.
You, St. Christopher may be of strong and moral character........but wierwille, and many of his corps coordinators and region leaders were NOT.
Some of the plagiarized material had/has spiritual substance.....and many cleave to these truths. But those who've encountered the ugly side of wierwille/twi saw the RED FLAGS and exited for greener pastures. To this day, many are thankful for these truths from biblical men of the ages.
GreaseSpot Café helps people to discern the good, the bad and the ugly.
Thank you for your reply. Also thanks to all the others who replied.
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skyrider
As top-tier corps/clergy (cough, cough) splinter from twi.......soon thereafter, some of wierwille's hard-core men desire to subjugate others with new, ongoing teachings, classes and weekends that yo
skyrider
Thanks Rocky.......lots of great insight. There are plenty of ways to supplement this *very real human need for belonging* .......besides going to classes and parking one's butt in a chair. Look
WordWolf
For those arriving late, this was a quote from MRS WIERWILLE, at vpw's FUNERAL.
Rocky
That's only one possibility.
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skyrider
Taxidev, two things might help to clear this up.....
1. I inserted this link as a reason to explain my reasoning, Phasing in a Splinter. In expounding on phase #3.........I stated, "Phase #3 of Securing a Central Headquarters [BRC/Church].....like CFF, Finnegan's group, Hendricks group, etc......is essential. Maybe Dottie Moynihan will open up her family wealth's checkbook and give a hefty donation.....or one of the others. But....just to be having weekly teachings on Facebook is going to fizzle.......soon. Teachings going out into the ethereal of humanity will NOT alone sustain the human spirit. I highly suspect that MANY of these self-appointed corps have been planning these phases already!!!
From all that I have gathered in studying how wierwille and other splinters garner movement.......they must operate from a "central office or headquarters." Wierwille clearly understood this and was claiming in December 1957, even though it was a RENTAL HOME IN VAN WERT, that they had a new headquarters. Look at all the other splinters...... like CES/STFI, CFF, S.O.W.E.R.S. or when Geer moved from Gartmore to Maine......what do all of these have in common?
If the central office is NOT established.......then, imo......those teachings are going to fizzle in impacting/building a movement.
Now, you can disagree with my assessment.......but I have historical evidence to back up this statement.
2. As you stated....."I have YET to get any indication that they want a 'central location'......" The operative word in this is........YET.
Maybe it will take 3 or 4 or even 5 years ........ but if they want to grow in impact, then they will need a central office and/or building. Doug McMull!n owned property in MS and thus, S.O.W.E.R.S. was grounded in Mississippi. Look around. This concept is not rocket science.
Peace.
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Rocky
Taxidev,
I was confident Skyrider would reply. Therefore, I didn't want to speak for him. However, the expressions, "put two and two together" and "connect the dots," have been referenced (explained indirectly) to you (taxidev) in prior (other threads) discussions. This is a poignant and salient example of the Greek word, "sunesis."
From Strong's Concordance:
Cognate: 4907 sýnesis (from 4920 /syníēmi) – properly, facts joined together for holistic understanding, i.e. synthesized reasoning that joins implicit (indirect) truths for comprehension. See also 4920 (syníēmi).
For the believer, this "connects the dots" through sanctified, inductive reasoning (done under God). This positive use of 4907 /sýnesis ("synthesized understanding") occurs in: Mk 12:23; Lk 2:47; Eph 3:4; Col 1:9,22; 2 Tim 2:7.
Edited by RockyI hope this insight comes together for you.
add scripture links
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Taxidev
I understand this, and I agree with it's most likely outcome. But I still find it presumptuous to say this is what they will do, based on others doing it.
They have their own web site where they post the recorded teachings, and they have a dial-in setup to listen live. Much better than Facebook. Still, I don't see it building any significant momentum, as you brought up. I already stepped away, I wonder how many others have.
I understand sunesis, but I don't see that in this situation. I find it presumptuous and speculative to say they will do the same thing as other splinters. They still insist they don't want any money. But, I am not saying they won't. I don't know any more than anyone else at this point. I only know what I've seen and heard of them, which is no indication that they intend to centralize a location.
They have their inner circle of control over the group, which existed from the beginning. In today's technical world there is no need to have a brick-and-mortar location any more than a retail outlet needs one.
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skyrider
Well.......the "tried and true method" of splinter groups is to establish a central office or location.
If there is NO "brick-and-mortar".......then, I believe that Teachings going out into the ethereal of humanity will NOT alone sustain the human spirit.
Also, NO class-tier structure to follow in R&R.....commitment steps 1, 2 and 3.
These guys better "follow the yellow brick road to Oz"........or people are going to lose interest fast. LOL
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Rocky
I wholeheartedly believe you when you say you don't see it in this situation. There's a difference between understanding what the Greek word means and actually connecting the dots in this situation.
Edited by RockyAs a teacher once said (or maybe he said it thousands of times), "it's as plain as the nose on my face."
May the Lord open.
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WordWolf
I forget which comedian explained the stages of drinking and drunkenness at a bar. Early stages had the person keeping track of how much sleep they could get before work tomorrow morning, and arguing against artificial turf in stadiums and so on. Later stages had him arguing for artificial turf, and later deciding that he might as well stay up all night before work, since he was still up. He staggered out of the bar, and was struck by the sunlight- smashing into him like God's Flashlight. He got home, and said a prayer. "Lord, if you get me through this, I'll never go out drinking again..."- say it with me guys- "...AS LONG AS I LIVE"- and some of us add the coda at the end- "...and this time, I MEAN it."
Ok, we have twi leaders who consented to the corruption, reaped its benefits, turned a blind eye to suffering, and so on. They left twi one day, then started up their own WHOLESOME ministry- and a few years later, the legalism started, the rules came down, the doctrine was locked, discussion and dissent were banned, and the money was solicited. Then the next set of leaders did the exact same steps. Then the NEXT set of leaders did the exact same steps. As did the NEXT set of leaders. But this time, now the CURRENT leaders who jumped ship, THESE are going to get it RIGHT and do the right thing and NOT make their own money-making venture, because these will succeed where all the others failed before them.
Which poster's signature was "The lessons repeat until they are learned"?
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St. Christopher
Can you give some evidence as to why splinter groups are worse? I see none at all. I am thankful for the time I spent in The Way in spite of the problems. I got tremendously blessed by learning to get into the Bible and by all the friends I made who also loved God. I am very sorry for those who had bad experiences. I also eventually left the ministry and have since read about the abuses that some experienced. Still, God used the ministry for good in my life and the lives of many others. It sucks that the ministry was ruined by a few corrupt individuals. I left in 1990.
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waysider
The ministry wasn't "ruined by a few corrupt individuals". The ministry was corrupt from its very inception, clear back to when Wierwille decided to steal the works of other people and claim they were the results of his own research or that God had given them to him by revelation. That being said, there were a lot of wonderful people that passed through The Way. Many good experiences were mixed with the bad. In no way does that excuse the reality of The Way's truly corrupt nature.
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Rocky
Evidence? You see none because it is subjective. "Beauty" is in the eye of the beholder. I'm glad for you're thankfulness for your experiences.
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waysider
Most, if not all of them, still promote "magic thinking" (AKA the law of believing). I'm not trying to start a controversy but the Way version of positive thinking can and has gotten people killed. If it's evidence you seek, look no further than the L.E.A.D. debacle.
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rubina
I think its importaint to note that not all splinter groups are the same. I don't have a lot of experiance with splinter groups, but I know some people in newer groups like Revival and Restoration and Oikeios well enough to say that they are genuinely doing what they believe is the best way for them to serve God, but this is not to say that is the case with all people in splinter groups. The most gruesome example of how splinter groups can go awry is the story of Victor Barnard's River Road Fellowship. There are a number of threads about it here if you would like to learn more. To be clear, I am not saying that any other splinter group is like the River Road Fellowship, but it serves as a warning of what can go wrong. If your leadership is open and transparent I wouldn't fear much from them, but if they are not, be careful.
Also I'm also happy to see that you are thankful for your experiances. It is too easy for us here to become crass and unthankful about our experiances in the Way and forget all the good that we experianced there.
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T-Bone
Hi St. Christopher, and welcome to Grease Spot!
I think you have a good attitude about things – I can relate to that – I am thankful for all the good people I met and the good stuff I learned while in TWI. I can’t speak to the topic of splinter groups since I’ve never gotten involved with one after I left TWI. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of TWI and what went wrong – so here’s my two cents.
I tend to think that wierwille was probably a poser from the get-go. I am not one to portray him as the devil incarnate. Nor do I get into judging whether or not he was a born again Christian – I’ll leave that up to the Lord Jesus Christ. However, actions do speak louder than words – and Jesus Christ did warn us of false prophets as ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing, saying you will recognize them by their fruits ( Matthew 7: 15 -20 ) – so obviously he expects us to be discerning to some degree (and I use the word “discerning” in the normal dictionary definition which means simply having good judgment
)…What does a poser do? The person pretends they are something they are not in order to gain something from others. There is a vast body of evidence - facts, information and witnesses available to indicate that wierwille was a liar, a thief and a cheat as far back as the beginning of his ministry.
Why I think it’s difficult for some TWI-believers to see its cultic attributes is because they don't really look past the Christian veneer on the surface. After all, the supposed centerpiece of TWI is something familiar to a lot of folks – the Bible. Folks might be interested in the book Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire - which covers many of the logical fallacies and manipulative techniques used by cults.
Another thing which makes this Christian veneer almost impenetrable to TWI-believers is the subliminal way in which “God’s ministry” had become almost synonymous with “God’s Word” – with such an air of arrogant superiority and disdain for those outside the fold, TWI leaders often proclaimed “we have more of the rightly-divided Word of God than any other group”. Instilling meekness (which is a nice way of saying submissiveness) is best done on a slow-boil. It starts out first as a fundamentalist viewpoint of the Bible – which is a strict literal interpretation of the Bible such as in the PFAL class. (By the way, Fundamentalism is not limited to a belief in God – it can also refer to any creed that mandates a strict obedience to a particular set of beliefs such as Fascism, Nazism, Communism, etc.) I tend to think that over time, the authoritative nature of Fundamentalism becomes suffused with how folks perceive and interact with the ministry. To question the ministry is akin to questioning the Word. A true believer just doesn’t do that.
Once you become a follower of TWI you are expected to go and tell others just like they did in the book of Acts – hey, no pressure, the “sales” strategy is simple - tap into the warm market of friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc. the same strategy as oddly enough, multi-level marketing schemes…Folks might be interested in the Huff Post article on the similarities of MLM and Cults - briefly mentions such cult tactics as love-bombing, deception, financial exploitation, guilt, shame and fear.
In the big picture - there's some kind of creepy dynamics in how TWI works - a weird type of symbiotic relationship - which science says “…is a close relationship between two species in which at least one species benefits. For the other species, the relationship may be positive, negative, or neutral” –but if I may borrow the idea – TWI may be like a strange symbiotic relationship between two kinds of people – those who are truly kind & helpful and those who are Pharisee-grade cruel, harmful and exploitative. . Just to be clear, TWI as the whole enchilada is based on the lies, deceit and delusions of a con artist, wierwille and still continues to this day grooming leadership to exploit followers. II Peter 2 is similar to Jesus’ warning in Matthew 7 – it speaks of false prophets and false teachers and says “In their greed these teachers will exploit you…”Overall, the dominant characteristic of TWI has always been parasitic – habitually…selfishly using people.
...as a side note - maybe there's another perhaps spiritual dimension - or just from my perspective anyway
– I think there were times when it was God working behind the scenes along with some good and kind TWI-believer helping me get through some tough times...And there were also times when it must have been God alone who helped me hang in there despite how much some TWI-a$$hole tried to crush my soul.
Having been through the WOW program and especially the Way Corps training program I really got a bead on TWI’s cult tactics after I left and began to deeply reflect on my experience. I don’t think your average TWI-believer (who is NOT way corps) has a clue of the actual nuts and bolts of an abusive organization like TWI.
At the local level – twig or branch – you might have a good person running things – even a way corps person - maybe even clergy (good people come in all shapes and sizes) and everything is just peachy keen. Another thing I might add - a lot of good and kind way corps leadership were almost like a buffer to cushion the impact of the harmful $hit that came out of headquarters.
God forbid you should have some TWI-a$$hole (TWI-a$$holes come in all shapes and sizes too – and tend to get bent all out of shape and want to cut you down below their exaggerated size if you don’t toe the corporate line). So maybe “can’t see the forest for the trees” might explain why some folks at the local level – for whatever reason - scratch their heads and ask “what went wrong?” – and then leave and join a splinter group. They were only involved at the local level and did not see the big picture.
Like I said, I can’t speak from experience about splinter groups. I just think if it involves regurgitating wierwille-dogma, whitewashing wierwille and preserving his fan base I’m not interested.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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WordWolf
I've said it before, and I'll say it again-
I'M GLAD I GOT IN, AND I'M GLAD I GOT OUT.
That having been said, the R&R people aren't the worst of the splinters, but they're hardly trustworthy, either. This is the group of people who planned to jump ship rather deliberately. Months before the meeting where they claimed it was about PRIMARILY trying to get twi to change, they registered "revivalandrestoration.com" as a URL. They also scouted around the top brass that weren't directly in charge, and tested the waters, asking who was interested in leaving and making a new organization. Months after THAT came the meeting where they claimed to want to reform twi and that's it. Monhs after THAT came the notice that rfr and the others weren't going to budge, so now we had to consider our options. At least a month after THAT was the announcement that they were going to start up R&R.
So, don't think you were dealt with entirely honestly. Their pfficial story was that they did their best to get twi to change. Only after that failed did they consider splitting off and starting a new group. The opposite was true- they set things up to start a new group, then went to twi and failed to get change to happen.
These are the same leaders who were fine with things for decades. As they approached retirement, they reconsidered their options, and now they're running their own show. Things were fine until it was convenient for them to leave, then SUDDENLY things needed to be addressed.
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WordWolf
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Rocky
I see what you did there. Very clever.
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rubina
https://oikeos.org/about/financial-reports/
To be fair, they had been trying to bring many of the issues before leadership for years before they decided to split away and the prospects for successful negotiations were slim. I know that a number of the R&R leaders are complicit in the Martindale era purges and that also brings up important questions, but I don't buy the line that this is all about money. I don't believe that R&R takes donations and at least some of its leaders have normal jobs like everyone else. Okieos is more suspicious, but at least they have taken the step of making their finances public, which is something TWI would never do.
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skyrider
Thanks for your question, St. Christopher..........
The scriptures show us in the Book of Acts of a man called Simon who was giving out himself as some great one (Acts 8:9). The people gave heed to him. The followers heralded him by saying "This man is the great power of God." Well, what about wierwille? He received unbridled adulation from twi's followers. Yet......in all my years in twi, I never saw wierwille operate any of the (big) six manifestations, 1) word of knowledge, 2) word of wisdom, 3) spiritual discernment, 4) faith, 5) miracles or 6) healing. Not one!!
Splinter group leaders talk a big game......yet, what do THEY do?
We, as Christians, are commanded to know them by their fruit. Well, what has been the fruit of wierwille's twi? Lying, stealing, plagiarism, drunkenness, sexual predation, strikers, deceivers, seducers, false teachings, mark/avoid character assassinations, corps indoctrinations, exploiting the good will and gifts of others, etc. etc. etc.
You, St. Christopher may be of strong and moral character........but wierwille, and many of his corps coordinators and region leaders were NOT.
Some of the plagiarized material had/has spiritual substance.....and many cleave to these truths. But those who've encountered the ugly side of wierwille/twi saw the RED FLAGS and exited for greener pastures. To this day, many are thankful for these truths from biblical men of the ages.
GreaseSpot Café helps people to discern the good, the bad and the ugly.
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Rocky
My educational background is in accounting.
There's a LOT that the 2019 Oikeos financial statement does NOT disclose. If you'd like me to expound, you are welcome to ask.
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WordWolf
1) I think glossing over their complicity to the Martindale purges and rfr's draconian policies that are only reined in when a lawyer insists they must be is the wrong approach. (If your "Christian" group exploits its workers and only stops when lawyers and law enforcement say they have to stop- as with twi- then your group is not as "Christian" as it claims to be.) They were perfectly comfortable with that for DECADES. That's not some piddling little detail. It says a lot about what they value more.
2) Nobody said it was "ALL about money." Some is about money- thus the timing when retirement is looming. Some is about POWER- now they can make the decisions. Some of it is about AUTHORITY- now other people hang on what THEY say. Some of it is about prestige and privilege- they have titles with cachet now, and possibly some of the chief seats. But dismissing all of that because itá not "ALL about money" is a convenient way to blow off a position you don't like. (Make up a caricature of that position, knock it down, then pretend that was the actual position, and you can dismiss the original position casually.) I don't think you MEANT to do that, but it looks like you were definitely in that neighborhood.
3) Last I heard, there was a "donate" button on R&R's Facebook page, which you can't see unless logged in. So, casual inspection may not make it obvious. BTW, just because they ALSO have normal jobs doesn't mean much. Having a standard source of income, among other things, makes it easier to hide "slush fund" expenditures. It also keeps the lights on at home.
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rubina
I found it interesting/terrifying that one of the entries was listed as "Orlando Lockbox" and also that there are no details about what was done with the revenue. Feel free to share any more shennanigans that you've found.
1) I know people who still can make the mental gymnastics of justifying these things. I don't feel like I am in a position to judge their hearts' intents even though I know that their logic is off. Some I believe have honest intentions, but only the Lord really knows. Honestly, I think this is the most destructive thing about TWI: people can do horrible and destructive things and still genuinely believe that they are in the right.
BTW can you point me to a thread that has more details about this worker exploitation story, I've only heard it referenced in passing.
2) Thanks for clarifying your position on the role of money, I stand corrected.
Although you might be right, I wouldn't make too much of their age as most people in TWI are also bordering on retirement.
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Rocky
Well, I didn't exactly do much of an examination, just a glance. But you figured out one of the key problems with that revenue/expense statement. There are several items that are not well explained. Just because some items were aggregated and then summarized with certain account labels, doesn't tell the reader of the statement much of anything at all.
In my mind, there would need to be an explanation for the group's chart of accounts AND a CPA audit statement qualifying whether generally accepted accounting procedures (GAAP)/standards were consistently employed/applied.
IOW, that financial statement tells a little (very little) but may hide more than it reveals.
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WordWolf
1) Lots of people throughout history can say the same. The SS wore belt buckles that said "God is with us". Religious wars usually have both sides say it at the same time.
2) For that matter, there's probably some sincere, nice stuff in among the "I'm in this for me" stuff- but it's like leaven- a little corruption is all you need to poison a religious organization.
3) There were discussions post-lawsuits about how twi suddenly made a bunch of sweeping changes that brought them into conformity with legal requirements, like work hours a week and so on. I don't remember a specific thread dedicated to it, so I'll have to hunt for them when I can.
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St. Christopher
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