quote:Where was it written sell your house to get out of debt but give us 10 percent of that debt money.
Datway, if this was a TWI-2 custom, then it came after I left. When I was around, the homeowners I knew were happy to remain as homeowners. On the other hand if you wanted to go in the Corps you had to get out of debt, but is that really Waybrain? A requirement of the Corps maybe...
quote:Where was it written sell your house to get out of debt but give us 10 percent of that debt money.
Datway, if this was a TWI-2 custom, then it came after I left. When I was around, the homeowners I knew were happy to remain as homeowners. On the other hand if you wanted to go in the Corps you had to get out of debt, but is that really Waybrain? A requirement of the Corps maybe...
My point exactly, you never even asked for a definition of debt.Thank you
:D--> Thanks, DATWAY. And you did, too. I didn't keep my twi books...and I've done everything possible to bury whatever I may have remembered...so being able to point to something "tangible" was too kewl!
Oldiesman, I never ever saw anything written or heard an official teaching "Thou shalt not take medications or seek advice from a physician, dentist, chiropractor, herbalist, etc."
But.... and that's one heluva big big BUT....
There were a lot of individuals who taught that illness equalled unbelief. Maybe it does, I dunno, but that's beside the point when someone is actually suffering a physical illness.
On many occasions, ranging from my first year in TWI, I heard people encouraged to believe God rather than seeking help with a physical problem. The conversations went something like this:
"Hi! How are you today?"
"I have a lousy rotten cold."
"WELL! Where's YOUR believing? Have you thanked God for perfect health every morning when you wake up? Have you committed some sin that has opened the door for the adversary to ensnare you? And where is that negative confession coming from, anyway? Now, repeat after me: 'I feel great! I am more than a conqueror through him that loved me!' Now, don't you feel all better?"
I damn near DIED from associating with people with that kind of attitude. A WC grad, one of our former twig coordinators, blew me off for an entire summer when I tried to tell her I was sick and needed a doctor. She complimented me on my "weight loss program" and wouldn't listen when I tried to tell her how bad I felt. I was a f'n type 1 diabetic and didn't know it. I went from 140 lb to 111 lb in six weeks, because I could not eat, I nearly went blind, and I was so weak I could hardly walk. I spent ROA 1994 in an hospital in Ohio on an IV insulin drip.
Then, when I returned to the left coast and was recuperating, a sister of DM had the nerve to ask me "Do you understand what it is that you did that caused this to happen to you?"
The ballz of that woman! I still can't believe I didn't do bodily injury to some of these morons. People who reprove their kids for getting sick and refuse them medical attention. I saw one kid fall off a stone wall he was climbing on against his father's orders, and badly injured his arm. He was screaming in pain and got a spanking for disobeying. His father refused him medical attention because he deserved to have what I think was probably a minor broken arm. He disobeyed his father, now he could suffer! How do I know? The kid told me. I should have kept him right there and called DSHS! But I was a good little wayfer and kept my mouth shut.
No there was no TWI doctrine regarding medical attention but there was one heck of a lot of practical application. I was condemned for whatever sin I had allegedly committed that caused me to become diabetic, when my real problem was a bad set of genes.
I've seen more evidence of that hard hearted attitude than I care to. It must really .... God off when one of His kids is abused like that.
Oldies, if you got away with taking medication for 17 years, and no one told you you had committed some evil sin, you were quite fortunate.
(I edited this to make sure no one thought the Medical WOWs themselves discouraged people from taking medication, following doctors' orders, etc. Far far from it! they were good people.
[This message was edited by Watered Garden on December 11, 2003 at 20:49.]
quote:Just try for one minute to see that what you have basically said to me is that you never experienced what I experienced, and you can't find any written documentation that would specifically encourage me to do something so dumb as to not take medication, so therefore what I did then and said now is/was invalid. ...
Coolwaters,
I didn't suggest your experience was invalid, just not necessarily indicative of Waybrain. There's nothing personal here. But I would say you heard some pretty strange things that's not necessarily attributable to twi policy. You also said Dr. Wierwille said that diabetes was caused by a devil spirit? That's a new one on me.
I am so very glad that you are still with us! And if I was involved in any way with you not getting to a doctor, I humbly apologize.
You said,
quote:She complimented me on my "weight loss program" and wouldn't listen when I tried to tell her how bad I felt.
Oh man! I broke into huge sobs. That is almost identical to what was said and done when the pastor of the offshoot tried to talk me out of taking medication. What he/she said was, "Well maybe this is your believing for how you're going to get all that weight off."
Isn't it great to be out from under such insanity?
*****************
OM,
I wish I had a pill to give you...you know...the red one or the blue one...
I think this is in itself a great example of waybrain. There were so many things said/done that by leaders who felt they had the right to give advice to people when they themselves had no qualifications at all. And we let them do it. How many WC or FC performed marriage counseling? How many actually had ANY training whatsoever? While no written policy may have existed on medication, it was standard practice to allow TWI leaders to give advice without training. In the workplace, that will make you and your employer liable. That is not "official" policy will be irrelevent to a court.
I realize this isn't a legal discussion but we are talking about corporate policy of TWI. I would be curious if TWI employees (full time WC, for example) giving medical advice which resulted in harm would result in legal liability for the TWI corporation.
I've heard tell of people with so much waybrain that they couldn't allow others to express themselves, say in a thread about waybrain, for example, without insisting on "accuracy" all the time.
Oldiesman, "waybrain" is not an exact term. It's a loosely-used, figurative term. There is no "exactly what is waybrain?". It means whatever it means to the person using it. Most folks here mean about the same thing, the screwy ways of thinking that being involved with TWI encouraged. That other groups have screwy ways of thinking that are more or less typical of group members (followers, associates, whatever) doesn't change anything.
People who spent much time in close involvement with TWI adopted some screwy ways of thinking, to greater or lesser degrees. Whatever that means to anybody who wants to use the term is "waybrain."
If you like, I can define "screwy" with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision, then go on to give a 500 word "literal" rendition (according to screwy usage) of "I had so much waybrain that I..." Or I could give a 1500 word "expanded" version.
Some of you have heard this story before, but I think it bears repeating as tragic WayBrain...
Our NYC Branch leader was an epileptic. Upon returning from a ROA, he was convinced that the best way to "walk out on his believing" was to stop taking his seizure medication. He died.
I believe it was shortly after that that VPW came out with a statement about how to tell if you're healed BEFORE you stop taking your meds. (Maybe he was getting scared that there would be lawsuits!) He said that if you were healed, then your medicine would make you feel sick, and then you would know you could stop taking it.
VPW simply substituted one bad doctrine for another....
I wasn't ever told that you shouldn't take meds, (this is back in the 70's), I was told that God had made those things come about for the 'Saints' and 'Natural Man' got them by Grace.
I had asked about baby shots, and that's the answer I got.
i attend an offshoot, but by my friend who is massively involved (never was with the way though) constantly corrects me when i say "create, luck/lucky" or anything that they feel degrades the word or my relationship with god. it's amazing how they can teach that we are saved by grace and confessing that jesus christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead by god, but then we have to limit and "educate" our vocabulary....that sounds like works to me. if i wanted to be saved by works and worship idols i would've never left the catholic church.
I was never in twi, yet I had so much waybrain that I actually believed that the gospel's were written "for" us and not "to" us.
UUUUmmmm let's see... God was so inconsiderate to one "administration" that He he had their doctrine written 35-50 years after their "administration" ended?
Those of you still in, or you lurkers out there, think on that one a minute and get honest with yourselves!
i really thought for a long time that i should supress my natural feelings and emotions because god wants us to be careful for nothing (phil 4:6)
however, the problem is still there and my emotional state has gotten worse. i no longer use my emotions since getting into the word, and the emotions i use at fellowship are pretty fake when i think about it.
quote:Oldies, if you got away with taking medication for 17 years, and no one told you you had committed some evil sin, you were quite fortunate.
(I edited this to make sure no one thought the Medical WOWs themselves discouraged people from taking medication, following doctors' orders, etc. Far far from it! they were good people.
Watered Garden, thx for mentioning something nice about the Medical WOWs. I shant hesitate to add that they weren't the only good folks around. Lots of folks weren't mind-controlled morons. Individual experiences may vary.
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DATWAY
Oh I quit!! Sorry CoolWaters I tried to help
WAYWho?
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oldiesman
Datway, if this was a TWI-2 custom, then it came after I left. When I was around, the homeowners I knew were happy to remain as homeowners. On the other hand if you wanted to go in the Corps you had to get out of debt, but is that really Waybrain? A requirement of the Corps maybe...
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DATWAY
My point exactly, you never even asked for a definition of debt.Thank you
WAYWho?
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CoolWaters
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Watered Garden
Oldies & Cool -
Oldiesman, I never ever saw anything written or heard an official teaching "Thou shalt not take medications or seek advice from a physician, dentist, chiropractor, herbalist, etc."
But.... and that's one heluva big big BUT....
There were a lot of individuals who taught that illness equalled unbelief. Maybe it does, I dunno, but that's beside the point when someone is actually suffering a physical illness.
On many occasions, ranging from my first year in TWI, I heard people encouraged to believe God rather than seeking help with a physical problem. The conversations went something like this:
"Hi! How are you today?"
"I have a lousy rotten cold."
"WELL! Where's YOUR believing? Have you thanked God for perfect health every morning when you wake up? Have you committed some sin that has opened the door for the adversary to ensnare you? And where is that negative confession coming from, anyway? Now, repeat after me: 'I feel great! I am more than a conqueror through him that loved me!' Now, don't you feel all better?"
I damn near DIED from associating with people with that kind of attitude. A WC grad, one of our former twig coordinators, blew me off for an entire summer when I tried to tell her I was sick and needed a doctor. She complimented me on my "weight loss program" and wouldn't listen when I tried to tell her how bad I felt. I was a f'n type 1 diabetic and didn't know it. I went from 140 lb to 111 lb in six weeks, because I could not eat, I nearly went blind, and I was so weak I could hardly walk. I spent ROA 1994 in an hospital in Ohio on an IV insulin drip.
Then, when I returned to the left coast and was recuperating, a sister of DM had the nerve to ask me "Do you understand what it is that you did that caused this to happen to you?"
The ballz of that woman! I still can't believe I didn't do bodily injury to some of these morons. People who reprove their kids for getting sick and refuse them medical attention. I saw one kid fall off a stone wall he was climbing on against his father's orders, and badly injured his arm. He was screaming in pain and got a spanking for disobeying. His father refused him medical attention because he deserved to have what I think was probably a minor broken arm. He disobeyed his father, now he could suffer! How do I know? The kid told me. I should have kept him right there and called DSHS! But I was a good little wayfer and kept my mouth shut.
No there was no TWI doctrine regarding medical attention but there was one heck of a lot of practical application. I was condemned for whatever sin I had allegedly committed that caused me to become diabetic, when my real problem was a bad set of genes.
I've seen more evidence of that hard hearted attitude than I care to. It must really .... God off when one of His kids is abused like that.
Oldies, if you got away with taking medication for 17 years, and no one told you you had committed some evil sin, you were quite fortunate.
(I edited this to make sure no one thought the Medical WOWs themselves discouraged people from taking medication, following doctors' orders, etc. Far far from it! they were good people.
[This message was edited by Watered Garden on December 11, 2003 at 20:49.]
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DATWAY
Great post WG!! I get to mad to type.
WAYWho?
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oldiesman
Coolwaters,
I didn't suggest your experience was invalid, just not necessarily indicative of Waybrain. There's nothing personal here. But I would say you heard some pretty strange things that's not necessarily attributable to twi policy. You also said Dr. Wierwille said that diabetes was caused by a devil spirit? That's a new one on me.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{{{{{Watered Garden}}}}}}}}
I am so very glad that you are still with us! And if I was involved in any way with you not getting to a doctor, I humbly apologize.
You said,
Oh man! I broke into huge sobs. That is almost identical to what was said and done when the pastor of the offshoot tried to talk me out of taking medication. What he/she said was, "Well maybe this is your believing for how you're going to get all that weight off."
Isn't it great to be out from under such insanity?
*****************
OM,
I wish I had a pill to give you...you know...the red one or the blue one...
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Steve!
Well, OM, many here at G-Spot would agree that this is a PRIME example of waybrain.
OM, I'm starting to think that you had some serious blinders on when you were "in". I think you STILL may have them.
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JustThinking
On the written vs. non-written debate:
I think this is in itself a great example of waybrain. There were so many things said/done that by leaders who felt they had the right to give advice to people when they themselves had no qualifications at all. And we let them do it. How many WC or FC performed marriage counseling? How many actually had ANY training whatsoever? While no written policy may have existed on medication, it was standard practice to allow TWI leaders to give advice without training. In the workplace, that will make you and your employer liable. That is not "official" policy will be irrelevent to a court.
I realize this isn't a legal discussion but we are talking about corporate policy of TWI. I would be curious if TWI employees (full time WC, for example) giving medical advice which resulted in harm would result in legal liability for the TWI corporation.
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excathedra
i had so much waybrain that I...
gave out "jesus christ is not god" books as christmas gifts to my big irish catholic family
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
?
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JustThinking
Ex,
I think I love you! :-)
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Tom Strange
of course you do JT! what's not to love of our wonderful Ex!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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LG
I've heard tell of people with so much waybrain that they couldn't allow others to express themselves, say in a thread about waybrain, for example, without insisting on "accuracy" all the time.
Oldiesman, "waybrain" is not an exact term. It's a loosely-used, figurative term. There is no "exactly what is waybrain?". It means whatever it means to the person using it. Most folks here mean about the same thing, the screwy ways of thinking that being involved with TWI encouraged. That other groups have screwy ways of thinking that are more or less typical of group members (followers, associates, whatever) doesn't change anything.
People who spent much time in close involvement with TWI adopted some screwy ways of thinking, to greater or lesser degrees. Whatever that means to anybody who wants to use the term is "waybrain."
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excathedra
can we define "screwy"
?
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LG
If you like, I can define "screwy" with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision, then go on to give a 500 word "literal" rendition (according to screwy usage) of "I had so much waybrain that I..." Or I could give a 1500 word "expanded" version.
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shazdancer
Some of you have heard this story before, but I think it bears repeating as tragic WayBrain...
Our NYC Branch leader was an epileptic. Upon returning from a ROA, he was convinced that the best way to "walk out on his believing" was to stop taking his seizure medication. He died.
I believe it was shortly after that that VPW came out with a statement about how to tell if you're healed BEFORE you stop taking your meds. (Maybe he was getting scared that there would be lawsuits!) He said that if you were healed, then your medicine would make you feel sick, and then you would know you could stop taking it.
VPW simply substituted one bad doctrine for another....
Regards,
Shaz
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Ginger Tea
rolf
I bet after a few "huhs" "what's this"
They hugged you and loved you anyway ~
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Ginger Tea
can we define dysfunctional?
(;
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JC'smyfave
I wasn't ever told that you shouldn't take meds, (this is back in the 70's), I was told that God had made those things come about for the 'Saints' and 'Natural Man' got them by Grace.
I had asked about baby shots, and that's the answer I got.
Kay
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No Way
i attend an offshoot, but by my friend who is massively involved (never was with the way though) constantly corrects me when i say "create, luck/lucky" or anything that they feel degrades the word or my relationship with god. it's amazing how they can teach that we are saved by grace and confessing that jesus christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead by god, but then we have to limit and "educate" our vocabulary....that sounds like works to me. if i wanted to be saved by works and worship idols i would've never left the catholic church.
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Greek2me
No way, good point.
I was never in twi, yet I had so much waybrain that I actually believed that the gospel's were written "for" us and not "to" us.
UUUUmmmm let's see... God was so inconsiderate to one "administration" that He he had their doctrine written 35-50 years after their "administration" ended?
Those of you still in, or you lurkers out there, think on that one a minute and get honest with yourselves!
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No Way
i really thought for a long time that i should supress my natural feelings and emotions because god wants us to be careful for nothing (phil 4:6)
however, the problem is still there and my emotional state has gotten worse. i no longer use my emotions since getting into the word, and the emotions i use at fellowship are pretty fake when i think about it.
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oldiesman
Watered Garden, thx for mentioning something nice about the Medical WOWs. I shant hesitate to add that they weren't the only good folks around. Lots of folks weren't mind-controlled morons. Individual experiences may vary.
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