Love Wins: a Book about Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, socks said:

So - I finished re reading the book, Mr Rocky and figure to close the loop on this discussion.
 

I can't think of anything Bell says logically or scripturally that makes me want to adopt his position, to be honest. Saying that, I think the emotion, the charis, of his message is closer to the truth than the hell and damnation stuff. As I understand and teach salvation, "hell" isn't really a topic. Jesus did talk about it but not in a way that I think me spreading His message now, needs to deeply consider. In the big context, it's another topic. 

Jesus Christ revealed God to mankind, gave the pneuma of God a visage, form, in which His intents could be seen, known, considered and even understood. 

Jesus Christ functioned in a very small corner of the world and the lessons and teachings of His life are better understood in a small community, familial context where a group (He and His disciples) exist within a larger familial style group (Jews) that function in an extended community spread over an area (land, geography, distribution of population) and that all are rooted in the same customs and culture while having their own twists and turns on them as the community border grows and spreads over time...and all of which exists in another different and separate social governmental community that exercises a degree of control over them (Rome and Roman rule and occupation).

In that context when Jesus said that seeing Him was like seeing the Father - He made an incredibly powerful point that was impossible to miss by those who were with Him.  Jesus forgave, offered mercy and forgiveness, grace. He healed and restored people to health. He wouldn't have done so if it were not what God willed. And He did that in a very small intimate context. 

Although we live in a time of global awareness I am not of the mind that the Christian message is best understood that way. The "body of Christ" is a very large community of course but it won't be fully congregated until the future and then into it's much larger context. We need to be aware of the larger church community of which we are a part and to which we can have an impact, but our direct part in it is immediate. I think some of today's conflicts in the church come from the desire of members to see themselves on too large a level, where pastors try to teach the entire world, apostles try to speak for the destiny of the entire church, teachers want to reach vast congregations of listeners. The real work of the church that most closely resembles what Christ DID ON EARTH is local, personal, intimate and real. His greater purpose was of course, infinitely vast. Selah, as they say. 

That's about it for me, just tying up loose ends. Peace n love! 

Thank you very much, Socks, for sharing your insight. Indeed, I see the human nature of Christian pastors/teachers wanting to reach the entire world. And that's how I view it, as human nature. But your point about the intimate nature of Jesus' work is wonderful. 

Hopefully many more Christians will have their eyes opened up to that insight.

Peace n love back at you. Selah. 

[Twinky]

8 hours ago, socks said:

Jesus Christ functioned in a very small corner of the world and the lessons and teachings of His life are better understood in a small community, familial context where a group (He and His disciples) exist within a larger familial style group (Jews) that function in an extended community spread over an area (land, geography, distribution of population) and that all are rooted in the same customs and culture while having their own twists and turns on them as the community border grows and spreads over time...and all of which exists in another different and separate social governmental community that exercises a degree of control over them (Rome and Roman rule and occupation).

...

Although we live in a time of global awareness I am not of the mind that the Christian message is best understood that way. The "body of Christ" is a very large community of course but it won't be fully congregated until the future and then into it's much larger context. We need to be aware of the larger church community of which we are a part and to which we can have an impact, but our direct part in it is immediate...
 

The real work of the church that most closely resembles what Christ DID ON EARTH is local, personal, intimate and real.

You are entirely right that God works in small settings.  Early commandments and instructions to the fledgling people of Israel include this:

Deut 7:7 7The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples

and if you read the early chapters of Deuteronomy (it's well worth the re-read), it's all about staying pure and close to the heart of God, rejecting falsehoods, and taking care of those who can't look after themselves.  This tiny nation was to be an example to the rest of the world and to draw people by that example into knowing God, the God of love and not the god of hate, or of human sacrifice, or of nature or animal worship (or whatever else, you name it).

We are all part of at least one community; we can impact that community.  We don't have to make a big name for ourselves, but people will notice that "there's something different" about us.  Many will have read Betsie ten Boom's works; whilst in a Nazi prison camp, she led people into Christian love and worship and even, at one point, thanked God for the fleas that infested their hut - because it kept the guards from harassing them (the guards were terrified of the fleas and the typhus they spread).  That attitude of gratitude, and of service, makes for stand-out behaviour that can demonstrate God's love to others.

It was the kindness and gentleness of my church, and its outward face to serve the local community, that drew me to it.  It's helped and healed me from my TWI wounds.  It helps and heals so many from debt, addiction, poverty - just by being there and offering help and solace.  Right now, there's a lot of emphasis on giving out food parcels to needy people injured by CoVid restrictions on work or ability to go out.  In school time, there's homework clubs - a quiet place where schoolkids can study, not in noisy households or on the end of the bed in a room shared with another child.  We have action days when we organise skips to take away bulky refuse within the area around my church - a poorer community, with more than its share of single parent families and cheap social housing.  we have social events that are free: Needles and Natter; a lunch club (donations welcome) that anyone can attend; Mums & Toddlers, where (often single) mums can go for a coffee and cake after dropping older kids off at school.  We do lots to help. 

And we sing and offer services, easy "classes" and the like, where people can come and learn more about God, Jesus, and living in love.  We have a big impact, for a little congregation!

 

[socks]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:50 PM, Rocky said:

Thank you very much, Socks, for sharing your insight. Indeed, I see the human nature of Christian pastors/teachers wanting to reach the entire world. And that's how I view it, as human nature. But your point about the intimate nature of Jesus' work is wonderful. 

Hopefully many more Christians will have their eyes opened up to that insight.

Peace n love back at you. Selah. 

Thanks! I'm glad you brought this book into the forefront. 

It can probably be summed up in one of the review quotes, the one you started out with that said "develop a thoroughly biblical imagination that takes in the comprehensive and eternal work of Christ in all people and all circumstances in love and for salvation. Rob Bell goes a long way in helping us acquire just such an imagination."

A lot of theology takes an exclusionary view of salvation - working from a platform that keeps the sinner out. Yet if we're sinners we're already "out" and we aren't even born knowing it. We don't need to be kept out or denied anymore than we already are. We need "deliverance", we need to be brought in. 

Yet the N T asks me "Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?"

Then there's the ol' "That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Bell really (to me anyway) sets up the the point that this life, our lives now aren't simply one of justice withheld. I think something I held for a long time in my former Catholic training was the idea that this life is some kind of a test or puzzle and if I pass I get to proceed. That's over simplifying Catholic theology but a lot of it does tend towards an attitude of "this too shall pass" where the human condition is indeed temporary but WHOA! you better get it right or - well, they'll be hell to pay later. 

Jesus Christ was the epitome of an "ocean in a drop of rain". If He is and was everything I read about and I accept that, then this very moment, this day, year, is of vast eternal significance because the Creator has focused His creative expression ("Love") onto us and into us and this life we're in right now. It's a window to the future yes but in and of itself it's an incredible thing we are living here, now. 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by socks
Now many moons and many Junes have passed since we made land. A salty dog, this seaman's log, your witness my own hand.

[socks]

On 9/4/2020 at 2:44 AM, Twinky said:

You are entirely right that God works in small settings.  Early commandments and instructions to the fledgling people of Israel include this:

Deut 7:7 7The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples

and if you read the early chapters of Deuteronomy (it's well worth the re-read), it's all about staying pure and close to the heart of God, rejecting falsehoods, and taking care of those who can't look after themselves.  This tiny nation was to be an example to the rest of the world and to draw people by that example into knowing God, the God of love and not the god of hate, or of human sacrifice, or of nature or animal worship (or whatever else, you name it).

We are all part of at least one community; we can impact that community.  We don't have to make a big name for ourselves, but people will notice that "there's something different" about us.  Many will have read Betsie ten Boom's works; whilst in a Nazi prison camp, she led people into Christian love and worship and even, at one point, thanked God for the fleas that infested their hut - because it kept the guards from harassing them (the guards were terrified of the fleas and the typhus they spread).  That attitude of gratitude, and of service, makes for stand-out behaviour that can demonstrate God's love to others.

It was the kindness and gentleness of my church, and its outward face to serve the local community, that drew me to it.  It's helped and healed me from my TWI wounds.  It helps and heals so many from debt, addiction, poverty - just by being there and offering help and solace.  Right now, there's a lot of emphasis on giving out food parcels to needy people injured by CoVid restrictions on work or ability to go out.  In school time, there's homework clubs - a quiet place where schoolkids can study, not in noisy households or on the end of the bed in a room shared with another child.  We have action days when we organise skips to take away bulky refuse within the area around my church - a poorer community, with more than its share of single parent families and cheap social housing.  we have social events that are free: Needles and Natter; a lunch club (donations welcome) that anyone can attend; Mums & Toddlers, where (often single) mums can go for a coffee and cake after dropping older kids off at school.  We do lots to help. 

And we sing and offer services, easy "classes" and the like, where people can come and learn more about God, Jesus, and living in love.  We have a big impact, for a little congregation!

 

That's a cool verse in Deut Twinky, thanks!

Your church sounds like it's got the "right stuff".  

[T-Bone]

First off thanks to Rocky for recommending “Love Wins” and also to everyone who commented on this thread – there’s a lot of good stuff!…I have to say I have not read such a thought-provoking book in a long time. And the oddly surprising thing about it was that I’m very familiar with the passages Bell gets into and I’ve even speculated along the lines of a few things he brought up. I’m just a casual Bible student and not in the same league as Bell being a deep-thinking and articulate pastor and author – so there’s something definitely uncanny when I come across someone who much more fluently and coherently expresses some things that have crossed my mind.

 

One of the biggest things to hit me from the book was how relatable God is as our loving heavenly father. As a loving parent I would never give up on my kids – no matter what. Even if they became the most notorious criminals in the world – of course I would want them to pay their debt to society and hope for their rehabilitation while in prison – but regardless they’re still my kids – there’s something of me in them – I will always love them and care about their well-being. Bell’s book got me asking myself “Is God any less than that?”… It seems pretty clear to me from chapter 3 on Hell that with all the Old Testament passages, God’s intention has always been redemption, healing and restoration.

 

The thing that really blew my mind was in chapter 4, when Bell points out    Revelation 21:25          which says the gates to the eternal city will never be closed. People are free to come and go. That does not address the question will everybody be saved? But it does suggest God’s unfathomable love in designing a new world of freedom. God is love – and that is something you can’t demand from another – because true love gives freedom – so even in the next life we are free to choose whatever we want. The gates always remain open. If someone wants in - they can come in. If someone wants out - they can leave. If someone doesn’t want in - they can stay out. And to be realistic about freedom - as cool as heaven might sound – it stands to reason that some folks who willfully choose to live in a personal hell of their own design in this life may very well desire more of the same in the next. Maybe that’s what  Revelation 22: 14 & 15    is talking about – of those outside the city  – I don’t know – just speculating here.

 

Another chapter that really excited was chapter 6 – There Are Rocks Everywhere. It made me think there is some kind of  permeant quality about Jesus Christ – that he has penetrated every cultural, even if the Gospel has not reached there yet. Bell talks about missionaries who have traveled to the farthest reaches of the globe and people there hearing of Jesus for the first time. They respond “That’s his name? We’ve been talking about him for years.”

Bell references   John 14  - where Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  I was flabbergasted to read Bell’s comments on that: “What he doesn’t say is how, or why, or in what manner the mechanism functions that gets people to God through him. He doesn’t even state that those coming to the Father through him will even know that they are coming exclusively through him. He simply claims that whatever God is doing in the world to know and redeem and love and restore the world is happening through him.” That makes me want to rethink what I know of other religions and cultures.

It kinda makes sense to me that if God is so loving and wants to give everyone a chance, then he wouldn’t set up some exclusive venue with limited access.   Romans 2    does seem to suggest that the requirements of the law are written on everyone’s heart, our consciences providing testimony and God will judge everyone through Jesus Christ. “Everyone” means everyone. Over the years my wife and I have had many discussions to try and expand our horizons beyond some of the narrow concepts we’ve been taught –  she'll probably read “Love Wins” too, since I've talked about some of the book with her.

 

 

And lastly, I’ve mentioned on a few other threads my fascination with  superstring theory    and extra dimensions. Bell uses it as a springboard to suggest Jesus’ talk of the kingdom of God as being an all-pervasive dimension of being, that was here, at hand, right now. Basically that was Jesus’ answer when the Pharisees asked him when the kingdom was coming - see  Luke 17: 20 & 21   . Something like this always makes me wonder about the nature of the spiritual realm. I usually think of it as something distinctly not me…really another dimension and perhaps a place far away from me. But in superstring theory multidimensional particles could be compacted and folded up inside each other – and as far as we know nonexistent compared to our experience of only 3 dimensions and the passage of time…

…And I guess if one could control how multidimensional particles are compressed and rolled up – then it would be possible to change the properties or characteristics of something. Makes me think of the city bending scene in the dream sequences of the movie  Inception   and the manipulation of reality scene in the movie    Dr. Strange  ...And probably the movie that comes closest to describing a world within a world is the scene of a futuristic city popping up in the middle of an open field in the movie Midnight Special  (happens at about 2:15 minutes into the You Tube clip).

Indeed some passages like  II Peter 3:10   and  Revelation 6: 12 - 17       that talk about the heavens disappearing with a roar, the elements destroyed by fire and the sky being split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up fires my imagination of what might happen on a cosmic scale…

...The majority of books I’ve read and scripture that I’ve studied have always reminded me of a transcendent God. Bell’s book got me to think about the   immanence    of God     in the comprehensive and eternal work of Jesus Christ in all people in all situations. Something Bell said about God’s love near the end of the book seemed to circle back to superstring theory (the “stuff” of extra-dimensions curled up into a compact space) – but His love is not static or diminutive in any way – “the indestructible love of God is an unfolding, dynamic reality and that every single one of us is endlessly being invited to trust, accept, believe, embrace, and experience it.”

Edited March 16, 2021 by T-Bone
revision

[Rocky]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:08 PM, T-Bone said:

First off thanks to Rocky for recommending “Love Wins” and also to everyone who commented on this thread – there’s a lot of good stuff!…I have to say I have not read such a thought-provoking book in a long time.

Sorry, I didn't see this until now. Glad you found the book to be thought provoking.

Another one you might find intriguing that I recently learned of is The Tao of Psychology by Jean Shinoda Bolen. IF you can find a copy. I bought one (used) on Amazon recently and now can't find the book by searching Amazon at all. But Bolen's website does have a link to it on Amazon. 

Immanence as described on your linked Wikipedia page seems to fit with Bolen's concept of synchronisity. 

The blurb on Amazon reads:

Understanding the Moments That Touch and Transform Our Lives

Who hasn't experienced that eerie coincidence, that sudden, baffling insight, that occasional flash of extrasensory perception that astonishes? Can these events be dismissed as mere chance, or do they have some deeper significance for us?

The twenty-fifth anniversary edition of this classic explores the inter-relationship between these meaningful coincidences and our intuitive sense that we are part of some deep oneness with the universe -- a oneness called Tao in Eastern philosophy and synchronicity in Jungian psychology. By relating the concepts of Tao and synchronicity, Dr. Bolen reveals important links between psychology and mysticism, right brain and left, the individual and the external world. The Tao of Psychology provides the key for each individual to interpret the synchronistic events in his or her life and gives fresh insight into the relationships, dreams, and flashes of perception that transform our existence.

[T-Bone]

16 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Sorry, I didn't see this until now. Glad you found the book to be thought provoking.

Another one you might find intriguing that I recently learned of is The Tao of Psychology by Jean Shinoda Bolen. IF you can find a copy. I bought one (used) on Amazon recently and now can't find the book by searching Amazon at all. But Bolen's website does have a link to it on Amazon. 

Immanence as described on your linked Wikipedia page seems to fit with Bolen's concept of synchronisity. 

The blurb on Amazon reads:

Understanding the Moments That Touch and Transform Our Lives

Who hasn't experienced that eerie coincidence, that sudden, baffling insight, that occasional flash of extrasensory perception that astonishes? Can these events be dismissed as mere chance, or do they have some deeper significance for us?

The twenty-fifth anniversary edition of this classic explores the inter-relationship between these meaningful coincidences and our intuitive sense that we are part of some deep oneness with the universe -- a oneness called Tao in Eastern philosophy and synchronicity in Jungian psychology. By relating the concepts of Tao and synchronicity, Dr. Bolen reveals important links between psychology and mysticism, right brain and left, the individual and the external world. The Tao of Psychology provides the key for each individual to interpret the synchronistic events in his or her life and gives fresh insight into the relationships, dreams, and flashes of perception that transform our existence.

 

Ha ! I’m way ahead of you my dear sensei      – after you had recently recommended it to Laura T on the Houston in the 70s thread – I ordered a new copy from Amazon  –  The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self      -  it’s the 25th anniversary edition, January 2005 (Bolen explains why the longer title in the newer edition - "synchronicity" was an unfamiliar term years ago). Have already started reading it…easy read...great stuff!