Hey all, I’ve been thinking over the stuff in Annio’s great post and just wanted to chip in my 2 cents to address another item - the unique snobbery often found in the TWI mindset. I believe it was fostered in part by wierwille’s teaching in PFAL as to what is the image of God. In the class, wierwille said the image of God is spirit – and when Adam & Eve sinned, the spirit “died” or went away, or went back to God which leaves one to infer they lost the image of God.
I’ve done some reading up in a few systematic theologies about what was going to “die” – first mentioned in Genesis 2:17 “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” The systematic theologies that I read do speak of it as spiritual death – and going a little deeper into the biblical words used for “death” gets me to thinking that maybe the death spoken of in Genesis 2:17 did NOT mean the image of God would be gone.
Looking at “To die” and “death” in “An Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words” (by W.E. Vine, Merrill Unger, & William White, copyright 1984, Thomas Nelson Inc. Publishing, pages 96, 97, & 268) I found some intriguing ideas. While the Hebrew word “muth” essentially means to “lose one’s life”, the authors state that when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, what happened was an immediate spiritual death and an eventual physical death. Writing about the Greek word for death “thanatos” the authors suggest that death means a separation – physical death is a separation of the life-force from the body (John 11:13, Heb. 2:15; 5:7); spiritual death is the separation of man from God (Gen. 2:17; Romans 5: 12, 14, 17, 21)…even in our current usage “death” can convey different ideas - a permanent cessation of all vital functions (“the cause of death has not been determined”), a cause of ruin (“the slander was death to my character”, or “the drought was death to the farm”). see "death"
On the flip side of “death” I got to thinking about the different usages of the word “life”. It can mean the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body, or a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings…But ”life” can also refer to the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual (“children are the joy of our lives”), one or more aspects of the process of living (“the sex life of a frog”), a manner of living (“the life of the colonists”), living beings (as of a particular kind or environment -“forest life”). see "life"
I’m inclined to think the “death” associated with the prohibition in Genesis 2:17 is primarily along the lines of a figurative death. I mean to say, SOMETHING really would happen - it would “kill” their relationship with God. see "kill"
In my opinion, the effect of this spiritual death was profound – and whatever impact it had on the image of God in mankind is the stuff of much debate in theologies – but it seems to me that the scriptures suggest we still have the image of God:
Genesis 1:27: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
Genesis 9:6: Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
James 3: 8,9: but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness.
Millard Erickson in “Christian Theology” (copyright 1985, 13th printing Nov. 1996, Baker Books) said “Our understanding of the image of God will affect how we treat our fellow humans and how we minister to them.” (page 496). And on page 513 Erickson makes the following inferences from Genesis 9:6 and James 3:8, 9 “The image of God has not been lost as a result of sin or specifically the fall. The prohibitions against murder and cursing apply to the treatment of sinful humans as well as godly believers. The presence of the image and likeness in the non-Christian is assumed. If this is the case, the image of God is not something accidental or external to human nature. It is something inseparably connected with humanity.”
== == == ==
To me, the idea that we all still have the image of God, emphasizes the nondiscriminatory way of how I should relate to anyone and everyone:
Matthew 22: 35-40: One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 7: 12: So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
On the deathiness of that death -
Look at Gen 1:26 and the surrounding record. Man is made in the "image" of God, after" our likeness". Both Hebrew words have similar meanings, image being something that looks like something, a "likeness", and likeness meaning like in quality, a visible or obvious comparison that the two things are hmmmm...alike.
All of the "thou shalt surely die" and die language has to match up against that then -
If man is EXACTLY LIKE God in a way that makes him visibly like him and obviously fashioned like God is, then his death - well, it would be impossible.
1. God doesn't die, God is eternal. God is "life", pneuma hagion that is called out in many ways in the Bible, the "word of life", in His son WAS life, the light of men, etc. etc.
2. God's life is pneuma hagion, creates by will and produces physical things.
3. God's life is compared to many things on earth that signify abundance and uninterrupted activity - "fountain", river, etc.
Man was formed from materials that already existed and "made" a living breathing thing, by God.
When Christians or True Believers in any one religion separate themselves out from everyone else I see that as extreme denial of the root meaning of our humanity. That's one of the great strengths of our country's founding formal documents, knowing that all men are "created equal", and exist on a level playing field where their basic rights are self-revealing, where the essentials of our humanity can be ignored or denied but not destroyed as long as we are alive.
There's a lot of other information we find out about God in the Bible's records and one of the overwhelming constants is that man describes God in very effusive, grand ways, THE grandes of ways. God is All THAT and everything we can imagine plus everything we can't plus everything else PLUS AND THEN God is greater than THAT. Etc. Etc. A lot of that is gratitude and recognition of a reliance on the benevolence of the Creator but a lot of that is also a very human effort to make sure the reader understands that the Creator is the everything of our lives, the beginning end and all in between.
So it looks like we could use a simple logic method with understanding what that "death" was, a 1 + 1 + 1 kind of approach.
Man didn't end physically, like "you disobeyed! Peter, you other guys! get the blueprints and coffee we're starting over! These two go in the archive!"
Man's days became "numbered" though, man's physical resemblance, likeness to God ended in what way - ? .....................1 + 1 = what changed?
Fast forward to the New Testament - Christ, "eternal life", the "hope", not sorrowing for those who die and knowing that in Christ's next coming will be gathering of His followers that will bring us all together under God's grace for - eternity.
From a state of what - ? For many it's death, all those who "died" are dead, gone, deteriorated physically to the point there's nothing left "Like" anything else to reconstruct or rebuild.
This all then goes into another host of topics but for me, the Genesis records are pretty simple to understand. There's a lot not spoken of and the idea of them being metaphorical also applies, as I get the sense that there's a LOT that doesn't get covered in the storyline, lots of detail.
So yeah.
PS: The idea that man "without" the spirit of God has absolutely no, zero, no "likeness" to God can't be entirely true, by simple logic. If there is no resemblance left after Adam then I can accept that yes, but it's not understandable, so I would just have to leave it stacked against other contradictory statements of truth, and set them aside as being "that way" and be done with it. I don't think that's the case here though, even though Romans 7 talks about man having "no good thing" for "to will" is present but man doesn't always do what he knows is the right thing to do - and he can't change that inherent capability to have free will choice and still make the wrong decision.....which is in fact the same condition that ADAM AND EVE WERE IN, "in the beginning"......and we generally accept that they God's holy spirit/life was in them at that time........................................................................................................................................................................so....
I would describe the "death" of Genesis as a reduction, a loss of MAN'S CAPACITY TO BE LIKE GOD AND IN HIS IMAGE.....ie, "pneuma hagion", which is eternal life "spirit". Man's capacity went from 100 per cent to 30 per cent, because he was now going to die relying on psuche/life - but it doesn't appear that a lot changed about the "man" - he knew God's will from the outset, he went against God's will at a certain point and outside of having substantially less birthday's to look forward to was very aware of what had just happened afterwards.
Mankind tries to love, care, forgive, share, provide, work, earn, procreate, build, be. He also fails, errs, goes up and then down and then down again, lives in valleys when mountains are climbed, views eternity but chooses a moment of hate, day after day -
We're like dented cans. We're never going to be right without the light being born again in us, without the eternal fire re lit in our souls. Even if we deny it later, once it's come and illuminated even for a moment, we remember what we saw, what we felt. The "new birth" is so much more than a certificate of completion or license to live....it's the imprint of a new reality on our souls that redefines everything. It would take a 1,000 x a 1,000 lifetimes to grow up and in and around that - an "eternity". In that way, it all makes such wonderful sense.
Edited by socks What I would not do, I do, for love.
There definitely are various dispensations or ages where God has allotted distinctive administrative principles throughout biblical history. Where I think Darby fouled up was his misunderstanding that there was an overlap of the Mosaic law age and the Christian age for approximately 40 years. Also the literal interpretation of certain passages that were meant by the authors to be figurative or symbolic have added to the confusion. This overlap of dispensations or ages is evident in Matthew 5:18:
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Are any Christians sacrificing lambs on an altar in Jerusalem? If you take Matthew 5:18 literally then we have been breaking many of the jots & tittles of the Mosaic covenant for 1900+ years since heaven & the planet earth are still in existence. Fact is, the "heaven & earth" Jesus mentioned in Matt. 5:18 was a symbol of the temple in Jerusalem. The temple was destroyed in 70AD. That was when "heaven & earth" passed away: http://www.reenactingtheway.com/blog/when-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-everything-changed879420187179853150181
After understanding this particular symbol and other symbols in the Bible various time references began to make sense to me. One of these time references is Hebrews 1:1:
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The writer(s) of Hebrews indicated that they were in the last days when the original letter was written. Dispensationalists have had to come up with clever explanations for these types of time references throughout the New Testament. One of them is the millennial day theory where each millennium is actually a day according to God. So the last 2000 years before Christ's coming are the last days according to this viewpoint. It's more difficult explaining James 5:7-9:
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until [d]it gets the early and late rains.8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.9 Do not [e]complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing [f]right at the [g]door.
I know there are other translations that use "draweth nigh" or "at hand" in James 5:8 for the timing of coming of the Lord and dispensationalists and other futurists have a myriad of explanations for this such as "could happen at any moment even thousands of years into the future", but looking at the Greek there is no doubt that "at hand" or "draweth nigh" really means near in time or space. https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm Eggizó root word is eggus: near (in place or time) https://biblehub.com/greek/1451.htm No gray area there.
So what could that mean if the coming of the Lord was near to the first century Christians? Realizing that there is a difference between Jesus coming in judgement of a particular entity or entities from 66-70 AD and Jesus return to the earth at the end of human history may be the key to making sense of all these difficult time statements such as "near", "soon" , "about to", "this generation" etc. In the Old Testament there is an example of God coming in judgement upon a particular region or country riding on clouds in the figurative sense. Isaiah 19:1 records this:
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
good post, Infoabsorption - and thanks for the links - I'm going to put Paul Penley's book on my reading list
You're welcome T-Bone! I also have Penley's book on order.
Most Christians are not aware of the concept that the "last days" mentioned in the New Testament is actually a reference to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
You're welcome T-Bone! I also have Penley's book on order.
Most Christians are not aware of the concept that the "last days" mentioned in the New Testament is actually a reference to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
Jesus and the apostles knew they had to keep this hidden, at least partially. The reason was so much persecution by the religious elite with the scribes and pharisees who mixed religion with politics in order to try to gain more power, instead of being service oriented to humanity. Jesus Christ was service oriented to humanity instead of wanting political power at the time of his earthly life.
Quote
Matthew 24:1-14
24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
(Mark 13:3-13; Luke 21:17-19)
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
I look at the 'last days' as being anytime directly after the day of Pentecost...the Messiah could have come back at any given moment.
This view has become very popular among dispensational futurist scholars in their attempt to explain away the time indicators within the New Testament. Some of them also claim that the "last hour" from 1John 2:18 is the entirety of the church age.
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
I have a hard time believing that John would use the phrase "last hour" regarding the timing of the coming of the antichrist if the antichrist's coming was actually 1900+ years into the future. These futuristic concepts make absolutely no sense whatsoever when compared to what is actually written in scripture and dispensational scholars have resorted to performing exegetical gymnastics to explain away time references indicating a short period of time.
This view has become very popular among dispensational futurist scholars in their attempt to explain away the time indicators within the New Testament. Some of them also claim that the "last hour" from 1John 2:18 is the entirety of the church age.
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
I have a hard time believing that John would use the phrase "last hour" regarding the timing of the coming of the antichrist if the antichrist's coming was actually 1900+ years into the future. These futuristic concepts make absolutely no sense whatsoever when compared to what is actually written in scripture and dispensational scholars have resorted to performing exegetical gymnastics to explain away time references indicating a short period of time.
soooo...are you saying that Christ came back 60 minutes after John said this ?!
soooo...are you saying that Christ came back 60 minutes after John said this ?!
The last "hour" mentioned here is a figurative amount of time not a literal 1 hour. It's referring to a few years. It was the period of time just before the Zealot rebellion & the Roman invasion of Judea in 66AD. The last days referenced by Peter in Acts 2 when he quoted Joel was about 40 years & it was Israel's (aka the Roman province of Judea) last days not the entire planet(Greek word "Ge")...which was the time period from the resurrection to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The literal interpretation of certain parts of the bible crept into Christianity with John Nelson Darby, the father of modern dispensationalism, during the 1830's. Also, the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000 year period of time but symbolic for a very long period of time.
The evidence for past fulfillment is even more apparent when one considers the Greek root word "mello". 'Mello" literally means "about to" and was left out of most of the King James translation. Instead of translating "mello" into English as "about to" they simply threw in words like "shall". I'll give you an example. If you look at revelation 17:8 from the KJV it reads like this:
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition
Here is the Greek interlinear for revelation 17:8 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/17-8.htm
You will notice from the Greek interlinear that "mellei" was translated into English as "shall". If you look at the NASB translation which considers the Greek "mellei" Rev 17:8 reads like this:
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and [g]go to destruction. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+17%3A8&version=NASB
Notice the difference? John stated that this particular beast was about to ascend at the time he received the visionbut the King James translators felt differently.
O.K. to try and clarify your position on the 'last days' and the imminent return of Christ from your deductions and point of view do you believe a/ Christ came back to issue judgement around 70 AD ...b/ Christ has already gathered the saints, again, around 70 AD....c/ Christ is NOT literally coming back as far as the clouds to gather the church sometime during the grace admin...d/ all the aforementioned ? There was a guy who had a very intricate and detailed website and facebook page that espoused these beliefs and I went right through and explained where he had erred, end result being he pulled the whole site...I felt a bit crap after that BUT, I guess it goes to show that if we propound certain beliefs or ideaologies we ought to have covered all angles, at least in our own minds !
O.K. to try and clarify your position on the 'last days' and the imminent return of Christ from your deductions and point of view do you believe a/ Christ came back to issue judgement around 70 AD ...b/ Christ has already gathered the saints, again, around 70 AD....c/ Christ is NOT literally coming back as far as the clouds to gather the church sometime during the grace admin...d/ all the aforementioned ? There was a guy who had a very intricate and detailed website and facebook page that espoused these beliefs and I went right through and explained where he had erred, end result being he pulled the whole site...I felt a bit crap after that BUT, I guess it goes to show that if we propound certain beliefs or ideaologies we ought to have covered all angles, at least in our own minds !
Allan, these are very good questions. I believe that a coming of Christ occurred at 70AD. That coming was mentioned by James as drawing near when he wrote his epistle. James 5:8 be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. That judgement was not global in scale. The view that the calamities described in the various eschatological texts are global in scale mainly comes from a mis-translation of the Greek word "ge". "Ge" was translated as "earth" in most of the New Testament so when people read Matthew 24 or the book of Revelation they develop a mind picture that the events recorded effect the populations of the entire planet. Obviously, there wasn't a catastrophe around 70AD that caused a third of the green grass of the entire planet to burn up so most people assume these events must be in our future even though the time indicators suggest otherwise. So Christians have developed various theories to explain why "soon" doesn't really mean soon or "near" doesn't really mean near(see Rev. 1 v.1-3).
Upon closer examination of the Greek word "ge" one will notice that "ge" can also be translated as "Land". If you look at the interlinear usage of "ge" it refers to the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.https://biblehub.com/greek/1093.htm If the Greek word "ge" was translated as "Land" in most of the New Testament would the futurist viewpoints be so popular in this day and time? Here is a good word study of the Greek "ge" that should clear up a lot of confusion: https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/03/15/revelation-the-land-ge-is-referenced-22-times-more-often-than-the-world-kosmos/
I do believe a resurrection of the dead occurred at 70AD most of my partial preterist friends tend to disagree with. Some of them even put me into the full preterist category because of this. The bulk of these people resurrected at 70AD were the Old Testament saints such as Isaiah and King David etc.but also included the martyrs of the beast during the first century(see Rev. 20:4) This resurrection is mentioned in Daniel 12. A huge clue that this occurred at 70AD is Daniel 12:7: When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” The power of the holy people which is also Daniel's people (But at that time your people—Dan12:1) was Israel and their power was broken at 70AD. Daniel was told to Go your way because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. Then Daniel was given a mysterious time indicator:
From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
This is referring to the initial outbreak of the Zealot rebellion that broke out in Judea in 66AD when Eleazar ben Hanania, the governor of the Temple, convinced the priests to stop the service of sacrifice for the Roman Emperor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleazar_ben_Hanania . At the completion of the 1335 days Daniel was resurrected. Daniel was told that the prophecy was rolled up and sealed because it's fulfillment would not happen in his lifetime. Daniel 12:13 states that Daniel would figuratively "rest" or in the literal sense die. So Daniel is told that the prophecy was sealed because it's fulfillment was far into the future but John is told in Revelation 22:10 to not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
The rapture theory was concocted by John Nelson Darby in the 1830s. 1 Thessalonian 4:13-18 is more than likely referring to the resurrection and return of Christ at the end of human history. The meeting mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:17 was translated from the Greek word apantésis. Apantésis is a technical term describing the formal meeting of a king or other dignitary who arrives for a visit to a town or city. In ancient times a delegation would meet a king or dignitary outside of the city and then escort them back into the city for festivities. In the case of Christ's return at the end of human history and the subsequent resurrection, Christ will not be arriving from another town on earth. He will be coming down from heaven. The resurrection will occur instantly at his arrival and we will meet Christ figuratively in the air (our King) and escort Him back to the earth. This is not a secret event where millions of people will disappear and millions(or billions) will be left behind. Read up on John Nelson Darby to discover how we have accepted this doctrine as fact on flimsy evidence.
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socks
You're welcome! Yes, I have. A little early in my youth but moreso in later adulthood. I've read quite a bit about it and have some favorites in the field, although not many. Philosophy wa
socks
Thank you! It's a learning exercise to write my thoughts out this way. Over the years I have notes, we all probably do on different things and it's fun to to write it out. For me it writes different t
annio
Please guide me if there has already been a post on this topic, couldn't find it recently discussed- So! I have been realizing that the doctrine that A&E were totally separated from God/"died spir
socks
On the deathiness of that death -
Look at Gen 1:26 and the surrounding record. Man is made in the "image" of God, after" our likeness". Both Hebrew words have similar meanings, image being something that looks like something, a "likeness", and likeness meaning like in quality, a visible or obvious comparison that the two things are hmmmm...alike.
All of the "thou shalt surely die" and die language has to match up against that then -
If man is EXACTLY LIKE God in a way that makes him visibly like him and obviously fashioned like God is, then his death - well, it would be impossible.
1. God doesn't die, God is eternal. God is "life", pneuma hagion that is called out in many ways in the Bible, the "word of life", in His son WAS life, the light of men, etc. etc.
2. God's life is pneuma hagion, creates by will and produces physical things.
3. God's life is compared to many things on earth that signify abundance and uninterrupted activity - "fountain", river, etc.
Man was formed from materials that already existed and "made" a living breathing thing, by God.
When Christians or True Believers in any one religion separate themselves out from everyone else I see that as extreme denial of the root meaning of our humanity. That's one of the great strengths of our country's founding formal documents, knowing that all men are "created equal", and exist on a level playing field where their basic rights are self-revealing, where the essentials of our humanity can be ignored or denied but not destroyed as long as we are alive.
There's a lot of other information we find out about God in the Bible's records and one of the overwhelming constants is that man describes God in very effusive, grand ways, THE grandes of ways. God is All THAT and everything we can imagine plus everything we can't plus everything else PLUS AND THEN God is greater than THAT. Etc. Etc. A lot of that is gratitude and recognition of a reliance on the benevolence of the Creator but a lot of that is also a very human effort to make sure the reader understands that the Creator is the everything of our lives, the beginning end and all in between.
So it looks like we could use a simple logic method with understanding what that "death" was, a 1 + 1 + 1 kind of approach.
Man didn't end physically, like "you disobeyed! Peter, you other guys! get the blueprints and coffee we're starting over! These two go in the archive!"
Man's days became "numbered" though, man's physical resemblance, likeness to God ended in what way - ? .....................1 + 1 = what changed?
Fast forward to the New Testament - Christ, "eternal life", the "hope", not sorrowing for those who die and knowing that in Christ's next coming will be gathering of His followers that will bring us all together under God's grace for - eternity.
From a state of what - ? For many it's death, all those who "died" are dead, gone, deteriorated physically to the point there's nothing left "Like" anything else to reconstruct or rebuild.
This all then goes into another host of topics but for me, the Genesis records are pretty simple to understand. There's a lot not spoken of and the idea of them being metaphorical also applies, as I get the sense that there's a LOT that doesn't get covered in the storyline, lots of detail.
So yeah.
PS: The idea that man "without" the spirit of God has absolutely no, zero, no "likeness" to God can't be entirely true, by simple logic. If there is no resemblance left after Adam then I can accept that yes, but it's not understandable, so I would just have to leave it stacked against other contradictory statements of truth, and set them aside as being "that way" and be done with it. I don't think that's the case here though, even though Romans 7 talks about man having "no good thing" for "to will" is present but man doesn't always do what he knows is the right thing to do - and he can't change that inherent capability to have free will choice and still make the wrong decision.....which is in fact the same condition that ADAM AND EVE WERE IN, "in the beginning"......and we generally accept that they God's holy spirit/life was in them at that time........................................................................................................................................................................so....
I would describe the "death" of Genesis as a reduction, a loss of MAN'S CAPACITY TO BE LIKE GOD AND IN HIS IMAGE.....ie, "pneuma hagion", which is eternal life "spirit". Man's capacity went from 100 per cent to 30 per cent, because he was now going to die relying on psuche/life - but it doesn't appear that a lot changed about the "man" - he knew God's will from the outset, he went against God's will at a certain point and outside of having substantially less birthday's to look forward to was very aware of what had just happened afterwards.
Mankind tries to love, care, forgive, share, provide, work, earn, procreate, build, be. He also fails, errs, goes up and then down and then down again, lives in valleys when mountains are climbed, views eternity but chooses a moment of hate, day after day -
We're like dented cans. We're never going to be right without the light being born again in us, without the eternal fire re lit in our souls. Even if we deny it later, once it's come and illuminated even for a moment, we remember what we saw, what we felt. The "new birth" is so much more than a certificate of completion or license to live....it's the imprint of a new reality on our souls that redefines everything. It would take a 1,000 x a 1,000 lifetimes to grow up and in and around that - an "eternity". In that way, it all makes such wonderful sense.
Edited by socksWhat I would not do, I do, for love.
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Infoabsorption
There definitely are various dispensations or ages where God has allotted distinctive administrative principles throughout biblical history. Where I think Darby fouled up was his misunderstanding that there was an overlap of the Mosaic law age and the Christian age for approximately 40 years. Also the literal interpretation of certain passages that were meant by the authors to be figurative or symbolic have added to the confusion. This overlap of dispensations or ages is evident in Matthew 5:18:
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Are any Christians sacrificing lambs on an altar in Jerusalem? If you take Matthew 5:18 literally then we have been breaking many of the jots & tittles of the Mosaic covenant for 1900+ years since heaven & the planet earth are still in existence. Fact is, the "heaven & earth" Jesus mentioned in Matt. 5:18 was a symbol of the temple in Jerusalem. The temple was destroyed in 70AD. That was when "heaven & earth" passed away: http://www.reenactingtheway.com/blog/when-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-everything-changed879420187179853150181
After understanding this particular symbol and other symbols in the Bible various time references began to make sense to me. One of these time references is Hebrews 1:1:
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The writer(s) of Hebrews indicated that they were in the last days when the original letter was written. Dispensationalists have had to come up with clever explanations for these types of time references throughout the New Testament. One of them is the millennial day theory where each millennium is actually a day according to God. So the last 2000 years before Christ's coming are the last days according to this viewpoint. It's more difficult explaining James 5:7-9:
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until [d]it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not [e]complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing [f]right at the [g]door.
I know there are other translations that use "draweth nigh" or "at hand" in James 5:8 for the timing of coming of the Lord and dispensationalists and other futurists have a myriad of explanations for this such as "could happen at any moment even thousands of years into the future", but looking at the Greek there is no doubt that "at hand" or "draweth nigh" really means near in time or space. https://biblehub.com/greek/1448.htm Eggizó root word is eggus: near (in place or time) https://biblehub.com/greek/1451.htm No gray area there.
So what could that mean if the coming of the Lord was near to the first century Christians? Realizing that there is a difference between Jesus coming in judgement of a particular entity or entities from 66-70 AD and Jesus return to the earth at the end of human history may be the key to making sense of all these difficult time statements such as "near", "soon" , "about to", "this generation" etc. In the Old Testament there is an example of God coming in judgement upon a particular region or country riding on clouds in the figurative sense. Isaiah 19:1 records this:
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
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T-Bone
good post, Infoabsorption - and thanks for the links - I'm going to put Paul Penley's book on my reading list
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Infoabsorption
You're welcome T-Bone! I also have Penley's book on order.
Most Christians are not aware of the concept that the "last days" mentioned in the New Testament is actually a reference to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Jesus and the apostles knew they had to keep this hidden, at least partially. The reason was so much persecution by the religious elite with the scribes and pharisees who mixed religion with politics in order to try to gain more power, instead of being service oriented to humanity. Jesus Christ was service oriented to humanity instead of wanting political power at the time of his earthly life.
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Allan
I look at the 'last days' as being anytime directly after the day of Pentecost...the Messiah could have come back at any given moment.
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Infoabsorption
This view has become very popular among dispensational futurist scholars in their attempt to explain away the time indicators within the New Testament. Some of them also claim that the "last hour" from 1John 2:18 is the entirety of the church age.
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
I have a hard time believing that John would use the phrase "last hour" regarding the timing of the coming of the antichrist if the antichrist's coming was actually 1900+ years into the future. These futuristic concepts make absolutely no sense whatsoever when compared to what is actually written in scripture and dispensational scholars have resorted to performing exegetical gymnastics to explain away time references indicating a short period of time.
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Allan
soooo...are you saying that Christ came back 60 minutes after John said this ?!
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Infoabsorption
The last "hour" mentioned here is a figurative amount of time not a literal 1 hour. It's referring to a few years. It was the period of time just before the Zealot rebellion & the Roman invasion of Judea in 66AD. The last days referenced by Peter in Acts 2 when he quoted Joel was about 40 years & it was Israel's (aka the Roman province of Judea) last days not the entire planet(Greek word "Ge")...which was the time period from the resurrection to the destruction of the temple in 70AD. The literal interpretation of certain parts of the bible crept into Christianity with John Nelson Darby, the father of modern dispensationalism, during the 1830's. Also, the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000 year period of time but symbolic for a very long period of time.
The evidence for past fulfillment is even more apparent when one considers the Greek root word "mello". 'Mello" literally means "about to" and was left out of most of the King James translation. Instead of translating "mello" into English as "about to" they simply threw in words like "shall". I'll give you an example. If you look at revelation 17:8 from the KJV it reads like this:
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition
Here is the Greek interlinear for revelation 17:8 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/17-8.htm
You will notice from the Greek interlinear that "mellei" was translated into English as "shall". If you look at the NASB translation which considers the Greek "mellei" Rev 17:8 reads like this:
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and [g]go to destruction. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+17%3A8&version=NASB
Notice the difference? John stated that this particular beast was about to ascend at the time he received the vision but the King James translators felt differently.
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Allan
O.K. to try and clarify your position on the 'last days' and the imminent return of Christ from your deductions and point of view do you believe a/ Christ came back to issue judgement around 70 AD ...b/ Christ has already gathered the saints, again, around 70 AD....c/ Christ is NOT literally coming back as far as the clouds to gather the church sometime during the grace admin...d/ all the aforementioned ? There was a guy who had a very intricate and detailed website and facebook page that espoused these beliefs and I went right through and explained where he had erred, end result being he pulled the whole site...I felt a bit crap after that BUT, I guess it goes to show that if we propound certain beliefs or ideaologies we ought to have covered all angles, at least in our own minds !
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Infoabsorption
Allan, these are very good questions. I believe that a coming of Christ occurred at 70AD. That coming was mentioned by James as drawing near when he wrote his epistle. James 5:8 be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. That judgement was not global in scale. The view that the calamities described in the various eschatological texts are global in scale mainly comes from a mis-translation of the Greek word "ge". "Ge" was translated as "earth" in most of the New Testament so when people read Matthew 24 or the book of Revelation they develop a mind picture that the events recorded effect the populations of the entire planet. Obviously, there wasn't a catastrophe around 70AD that caused a third of the green grass of the entire planet to burn up so most people assume these events must be in our future even though the time indicators suggest otherwise. So Christians have developed various theories to explain why "soon" doesn't really mean soon or "near" doesn't really mean near(see Rev. 1 v.1-3).
Upon closer examination of the Greek word "ge" one will notice that "ge" can also be translated as "Land". If you look at the interlinear usage of "ge" it refers to the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region. https://biblehub.com/greek/1093.htm If the Greek word "ge" was translated as "Land" in most of the New Testament would the futurist viewpoints be so popular in this day and time? Here is a good word study of the Greek "ge" that should clear up a lot of confusion: https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/03/15/revelation-the-land-ge-is-referenced-22-times-more-often-than-the-world-kosmos/
I do believe a resurrection of the dead occurred at 70AD most of my partial preterist friends tend to disagree with. Some of them even put me into the full preterist category because of this. The bulk of these people resurrected at 70AD were the Old Testament saints such as Isaiah and King David etc.but also included the martyrs of the beast during the first century(see Rev. 20:4) This resurrection is mentioned in Daniel 12. A huge clue that this occurred at 70AD is Daniel 12:7: When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” The power of the holy people which is also Daniel's people (But at that time your people—Dan12:1) was Israel and their power was broken at 70AD. Daniel was told to Go your way because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. Then Daniel was given a mysterious time indicator:
From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
This is referring to the initial outbreak of the Zealot rebellion that broke out in Judea in 66AD when Eleazar ben Hanania, the governor of the Temple, convinced the priests to stop the service of sacrifice for the Roman Emperor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleazar_ben_Hanania . At the completion of the 1335 days Daniel was resurrected. Daniel was told that the prophecy was rolled up and sealed because it's fulfillment would not happen in his lifetime. Daniel 12:13 states that Daniel would figuratively "rest" or in the literal sense die. So Daniel is told that the prophecy was sealed because it's fulfillment was far into the future but John is told in Revelation 22:10 to not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
The rapture theory was concocted by John Nelson Darby in the 1830s. 1 Thessalonian 4:13-18 is more than likely referring to the resurrection and return of Christ at the end of human history. The meeting mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:17 was translated from the Greek word apantésis. Apantésis is a technical term describing the formal meeting of a king or other dignitary who arrives for a visit to a town or city. In ancient times a delegation would meet a king or dignitary outside of the city and then escort them back into the city for festivities. In the case of Christ's return at the end of human history and the subsequent resurrection, Christ will not be arriving from another town on earth. He will be coming down from heaven. The resurrection will occur instantly at his arrival and we will meet Christ figuratively in the air (our King) and escort Him back to the earth. This is not a secret event where millions of people will disappear and millions(or billions) will be left behind. Read up on John Nelson Darby to discover how we have accepted this doctrine as fact on flimsy evidence.
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