One difference, AFAIK, between the new Mass and the old is conducting it all in Latin vs all in the language of the people (except for certain things the priest does almost silently.) Another difference is in the priest facing the congregation vs facing away from the congregation. In your opinion, do those make a difference, and, if so, what difference do they make?
As I understand it the Latin contains many more gestures and worship sequences, meaningful actions that were cut out when they reduced it at Vatican 2. When facing the cross during the original Latin Mass, the priest actually worships Jesus (which was described to me as like time travel i.e. you are there at the crucifixion) having only the altar as opposed to using a table and facing the congregants during the new Mass.
Here's a video series that was suggested to me (this is part One of Three) of the set-up of the original Latin Mass, that you may find interesting:
Thanks for answering about facing the congregation. I think you missed, however, that I also asked what difference the Latin makes, if any, in your opinion. (Unless you refuse to answer, which, of course, you can do if you want to- but I don't think that was the idea.)
Wordwolf, I don't know other than its tradition, and maybe some Pope decreed along the way that that was the way it was supposed to be said and no other way. Personally I would like to hear the entire traditional high Mass in English, but I don't think its available around here. Some trads literally believe that once a Pope says something like that anything else is invalid. Of course there are exceptions: it is said that the Rosary was given to St. Dominic directly from Mary as 15 decades; then Pope John Paul added 5 more decades which the trads believe makes it invalid so there they don't accept the Popes decision. It certainly seems to be a dilemma for them to accept some Popes decrees and reject others...
I did watch a couple of minutes of each of those videos.
OM, glad there's something for you to find worthy and fulfilling in catholicism. But it's definitely not for me.
Thank you. I find it as one of the most serious ways to worship God. Of course, they don't know that I speak in tongues during the Mass and I don't broadcast it because they definitely don't believe in it unfortunately.
Thank you. I find it as one of the most serious ways to worship God. Of course, they don't know that I speak in tongues during the Mass and I don't broadcast it because they definitely don't believe in it unfortunately.
Well, if you're doing it silently, it's not like they have to know. You can do it through most of the Mass and all of the homily and nobody would know- unless you sub-vocalize or something so your lips move.
Thank you. I find it as one of the most serious ways to worship God. Of course, they don't know that I speak in tongues during the Mass and I don't broadcast it because they definitely don't believe in it unfortunately.
Those would come under the Novus Ordo not the traditionalists. Even then, its a separate service from their usual Mass from what I've seen. And the service I've been to didn't have SIT with interpretation only a word of prophesy (which was very much like the old TWI).
Okay, here's what I don't get. And, I'm not trying to make trouble. You say you consider Mass to be one of the most serious forms of worship but you S.I.T. while the service is being held. To each his own. I guess. It just strikes me as being like the people who make a recipe they saw online and then comment on how much they really liked it but added coconut sprinkles and pineapple chunks to the mix. Well, it's not the same recipe, then, is it?
Okay, here's what I don't get. And, I'm not trying to make trouble. You say you consider Mass to be one of the most serious forms of worship but you S.I.T. while the service is being held. To each his own. I guess. It just strikes me as being like the people who make a recipe they saw online and then comment on how much they really liked it but added coconut sprinkles and pineapple chunks to the mix. Well, it's not the same recipe, then, is it?
Yes, I'm adding something to the mix that works for me. Others may not go for the same mix as mine.
I thought this was an interesting video (about 20 minutes) of how the RC Church got invaded from within. Right now, from what I've seen and experienced, the "Novus Ordo" Mass is a severely watered-down version of the Traditional Latin Mass. Some trads. believe the new Mass isn't valid at all. I do not hold to that view, though I do believe the traditional Mass is way more serious, reverent and worshipful.
* This gives a good snapshotof the Mass and some of the controversies.
I studied and became an "Alter Boy" for a couple years, when I was a kid. This was just before Vatican 2 . We learned the Mass in Latin, and the various responses and movements of the service and what it all meant. I don't remember much of it other than the standard "nominees for biscuits" and "it's feely all saaaanc-tay" kind of responses.
The Mass itself has some decent parts to it, I think. If a person is thoughtful and engaged it can be meaningful as a meditative exercise.
It's the whole context of the theology and religion that's gross though. Catholicism has a creep reality to it, at least for me - the whole extreme and deliberately gory emphasis on the "blood of the Lamb" and the crucifixion, "Mary the Mother of God", the functional definitions of dulia, hyper dulia, and latria "worship", veneration of Mary, saint-hood and the various mediators and mediatrixes for prayer, "Purgatory" and the final purification of "the elect"...................and other stuff.
The Mass in Latin always sounded cool though. "Mystical". Some of the power of the religion comes from those kinds of things - stained glass art, awesome architecture, weird symbols, unintelligible secret rites and rituals. Heady stuff.
If I'm not mistaken (and I am "from time to time"), many different geographical locations throughout the populated Earth where Catholicism has taken root have been influenced in practice (and belief) by local traditions. Having lived for nearly three years on an island in the Azores, they had Holy Ghost houses and festivals.
Thecult of the Holy Spirit(Portuguese:Culto do Divino Espírito Santo), also known as thecult of the Empire of the Holy Spirit(Culto do Império do Divino Espírito Santo), is a religious sub-culture, inspired by Christianmillenarianmystics, associated withAzoreanCatholicidentity, consisting of iconography, architecture, and religious practices that have continued in many communities of the archipelago as well as the broaderPortuguese diaspora. Beyond the Azores, the Cult of the Holy Spirit is alive in parts ofBrazil(where it was established three centuries ago) and pockets of Portuguese settlers in North America. The cult of the Holy Spirit involves traditional rituals and religious celebrations of these faith communities.
* This gives a good snapshotof the Mass and some of the controversies.
I studied and became an "Alter Boy" for a couple years, when I was a kid. This was just before Vatican 2 . We learned the Mass in Latin, and the various responses and movements of the service and what it all meant. I don't remember much of it other than the standard "nominees for biscuits" and "it's feely all saaaanc-tay" kind of responses.
The Mass itself has some decent parts to it, I think. If a person is thoughtful and engaged it can be meaningful as a meditative exercise.
It's the whole context of the theology and religion that's gross though. Catholicism has a creep reality to it, at least for me - the whole extreme and deliberately gory emphasis on the "blood of the Lamb" and the crucifixion, "Mary the Mother of God", the functional definitions of dulia, hyper dulia, and latria "worship", veneration of Mary, saint-hood and the various mediators and mediatrixes for prayer, "Purgatory" and the final purification of "the elect"...................and other stuff.
The Mass in Latin always sounded cool though. "Mystical". Some of the power of the religion comes from those kinds of things - stained glass art, awesome architecture, weird symbols, unintelligible secret rites and rituals. Heady stuff.
If I'm not mistaken (and I am "from time to time"), many different geographical locations throughout the populated Earth where Catholicism has taken root have been influenced in practice (and belief) by local traditions. Having lived for nearly three years on an island in the Azores, they had Holy Ghost houses and festivals.
Thecult of the Holy Spirit(Portuguese:Culto do Divino Espírito Santo), also known as thecult of the Empire of the Holy Spirit(Culto do Império do Divino Espírito Santo), is a religious sub-culture, inspired by Christianmillenarianmystics, associated withAzoreanCatholicidentity, consisting of iconography, architecture, and religious practices that have continued in many communities of the archipelago as well as the broaderPortuguese diaspora. Beyond the Azores, the Cult of the Holy Spirit is alive in parts ofBrazil(where it was established three centuries ago) and pockets of Portuguese settlers in North America. The cult of the Holy Spirit involves traditional rituals and religious celebrations of these faith communities.
It looks quite interesting.. if I were there I'd go check it out. One thing I'd say: churches like this are probably way more accepted today than before Vatican 2. There's a church close to me that practices "gifts of the spirit" that still hasn't taken hold on all RC churches in the diocese yet is now considered valid among "modernist Catholics." And yet I think that "traditional Catholics" still consider these practices invalid and maybe even satanic, along with the cult of the Holy Spirit.
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WordWolf
One difference, AFAIK, between the new Mass and the old is conducting it all in Latin vs all in the language of the people (except for certain things the priest does almost silently.) Another difference is in the priest facing the congregation vs facing away from the congregation. In your opinion, do those make a difference, and, if so, what difference do they make?
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oldiesman
As I understand it the Latin contains many more gestures and worship sequences, meaningful actions that were cut out when they reduced it at Vatican 2. When facing the cross during the original Latin Mass, the priest actually worships Jesus (which was described to me as like time travel i.e. you are there at the crucifixion) having only the altar as opposed to using a table and facing the congregants during the new Mass.
Here's a video series that was suggested to me (this is part One of Three) of the set-up of the original Latin Mass, that you may find interesting:
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Rocky
Meh.
I did watch a couple of minutes of each of those videos.
OM, glad there's something for you to find worthy and fulfilling in catholicism. But it's definitely not for me.
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WordWolf
Thanks for answering about facing the congregation. I think you missed, however, that I also asked what difference the Latin makes, if any, in your opinion. (Unless you refuse to answer, which, of course, you can do if you want to- but I don't think that was the idea.)
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, I don't know other than its tradition, and maybe some Pope decreed along the way that that was the way it was supposed to be said and no other way. Personally I would like to hear the entire traditional high Mass in English, but I don't think its available around here. Some trads literally believe that once a Pope says something like that anything else is invalid. Of course there are exceptions: it is said that the Rosary was given to St. Dominic directly from Mary as 15 decades; then Pope John Paul added 5 more decades which the trads believe makes it invalid so there they don't accept the Popes decision. It certainly seems to be a dilemma for them to accept some Popes decrees and reject others...
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oldiesman
Thank you. I find it as one of the most serious ways to worship God. Of course, they don't know that I speak in tongues during the Mass and I don't broadcast it because they definitely don't believe in it unfortunately.
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WordWolf
Well, if you're doing it silently, it's not like they have to know. You can do it through most of the Mass and all of the homily and nobody would know- unless you sub-vocalize or something so your lips move.
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Rocky
What about the Charismatic Catholics?
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oldiesman
Those would come under the Novus Ordo not the traditionalists. Even then, its a separate service from their usual Mass from what I've seen. And the service I've been to didn't have SIT with interpretation only a word of prophesy (which was very much like the old TWI).
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waysider
Okay, here's what I don't get. And, I'm not trying to make trouble. You say you consider Mass to be one of the most serious forms of worship but you S.I.T. while the service is being held. To each his own. I guess. It just strikes me as being like the people who make a recipe they saw online and then comment on how much they really liked it but added coconut sprinkles and pineapple chunks to the mix. Well, it's not the same recipe, then, is it?
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oldiesman
Yes, I'm adding something to the mix that works for me. Others may not go for the same mix as mine.
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socks
* This gives a good snapshotof the Mass and some of the controversies.
I studied and became an "Alter Boy" for a couple years, when I was a kid. This was just before Vatican 2 . We learned the Mass in Latin, and the various responses and movements of the service and what it all meant. I don't remember much of it other than the standard "nominees for biscuits" and "it's feely all saaaanc-tay" kind of responses.
The Mass itself has some decent parts to it, I think. If a person is thoughtful and engaged it can be meaningful as a meditative exercise.
It's the whole context of the theology and religion that's gross though. Catholicism has a creep reality to it, at least for me - the whole extreme and deliberately gory emphasis on the "blood of the Lamb" and the crucifixion, "Mary the Mother of God", the functional definitions of dulia, hyper dulia, and latria "worship", veneration of Mary, saint-hood and the various mediators and mediatrixes for prayer, "Purgatory" and the final purification of "the elect"...................and other stuff.
The Mass in Latin always sounded cool though. "Mystical". Some of the power of the religion comes from those kinds of things - stained glass art, awesome architecture, weird symbols, unintelligible secret rites and rituals. Heady stuff.
* http://catholicstraightanswers.com/why-is-the-mass-structured-the-way-it-is/
Edited by socksThat thing? Yeah, the thing, I took care of it. Yeah, I took care o' that thing. It's done.
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Rocky
If I'm not mistaken (and I am "from time to time"), many different geographical locations throughout the populated Earth where Catholicism has taken root have been influenced in practice (and belief) by local traditions. Having lived for nearly three years on an island in the Azores, they had Holy Ghost houses and festivals.
Edited by RockyThe cult of the Holy Spirit (Portuguese: Culto do Divino Espírito Santo), also known as the cult of the Empire of the Holy Spirit (Culto do Império do Divino Espírito Santo), is a religious sub-culture, inspired by Christian millenarian mystics, associated with Azorean Catholic identity, consisting of iconography, architecture, and religious practices that have continued in many communities of the archipelago as well as the broader Portuguese diaspora. Beyond the Azores, the Cult of the Holy Spirit is alive in parts of Brazil (where it was established three centuries ago) and pockets of Portuguese settlers in North America. The cult of the Holy Spirit involves traditional rituals and religious celebrations of these faith communities.
Posted too soon.
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oldiesman
Haven't paid much attention to the "dulia and hyperdulia" parts... still working on the "latria".
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oldiesman
It looks quite interesting.. if I were there I'd go check it out. One thing I'd say: churches like this are probably way more accepted today than before Vatican 2. There's a church close to me that practices "gifts of the spirit" that still hasn't taken hold on all RC churches in the diocese yet is now considered valid among "modernist Catholics." And yet I think that "traditional Catholics" still consider these practices invalid and maybe even satanic, along with the cult of the Holy Spirit.
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