Hey, I'll tell ya something, if life was fair, JAL would probably be the biggest televangelist in the country right now. Compare him, if you will to Joel Osteen, who's old enough to be JAL's son. JAL is by far more intelligent, more eloquent, and more knowledgeable of the Bible than Osteen could ever dream of. Osteen basically inherited the position he's got now. I'm just keeping it real. And, oh yeah, it proves that life isn't always fair.
[Actually, it wasn't TLC that said it, it was "Duke Baxter." I just quoted from TLC's post.]
Really? Not one iota of that post smacks of real anything to me... except something that would be impolite to articulate.
5 hours ago, TLC said:
Since when (and/or where in the Bible) did God ever give preference to or choose any of those characteristics above humility?
It's not often I agree with TLC, but on this point I certainly do.
Further, I don't see where either JAL or Osteen are humble. But maybe I'm just not looking in the right place.
Regarding the NOT service oriented teaching of so called "personal prophecy" I found the information and am now remembering my opposition to this doctrinal and especially practical error. What this was about was to lord over God's heritage. It was not for service to followers of Jesus Christ. They were using this so called new doctrine to form a new hierarchy of leadership with more money to be received. This was not only used by CES, but used by the following
Quote
I personally have a prophet that I go to for my personal prophecies and I am always happy to get them. His name is Jeremy Lopez and the donation that you need to make for your personal prophecy is $40 US.
Here is a link to an article which explains the problem that I saw about 15 or 20 years ago, but did not remember the details of. So called personal prophecy was being used for political mixed with religious power and authority. John's wife I think saw the problem with this and tried to correct them, but was obstructed. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_cesCrisis.htm
The person who wrote this article did a very good job in factual, truthful and practical writing. I give him a grade of "A". As an example, he wrote,
Quote
While the Graesers may not recognize it, they were running and promoting a theocracy.
A theocracy is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god."
The person also wrote the following. I recommend reading this article with link above.
Quote
Third, personal prophecy assumes that believers must submit to the prophets on personal, spiritual and relationship matters. In practice, if not in teaching, the prophet is the intermediary between the believers and God. Submitting to the words of the prophet is submitting to the word of the Lord. There is no clear distinction, as least in the eyes of the prophet. Like a Roman Catholic Priest, the STF prophet stands in the place of God speaking for him and acknowledging the believers' submission. This is in stark contrast to the book of Hebrews, which states that Christ himself is the mediator, not a human prophet.
[Actually, it wasn't TLC that said it, it was "Duke Baxter." I just quoted from TLC's post.]
Really? Not one iota of that post smacks of real anything to me... except something that would be impolite to articulate.
It's not often I agree with TLC, but on this point I certainly do.
Further, I don't see where either JAL or Osteen are humble. But maybe I'm just not looking in the right place.
Funny story, when I was attending a local college many, many years ago, I was enrolled in an elective course, 'The Bible as Literature'. I remember having the opportunity to ask one of my classmates what he thought about the Bible, which he replied that it was just a book full of myths, Fairy Tales, and contradictions. When I asked him to give me just one example of a contradiction in the Bible, off the top of his head, he immediately responded and cited Jesus's statement about, 'the Meek shall inherit the Earth' being obviously bullBLEEP since there was never any evidence of that happening, even anytime soon. Now I realize that Moses was never an eloquent man but God promised to give him the words if he agreed to lead God's people. I'm also aware of a passage of scripture which states that God uses the simple to confound the wise.
So with that all said, I can't see how one can become a successful TV evangelist today without being intelligent, eloquent, and having a good working knowledge of God's Word. Keep in mind, with somebody like Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn, their church services are literally broadcast all over world through the Internet or Satellite TV.
One of the many things I passionately disagreed with about the Ministry was that EVERYBODY IS QUALIFIED TO BE A GREAT LEADER. Was Mother Teresa ever considered, A GREAT LEADER? I don't think so. Mother T was a great servant, she gave a lot of hope to sick and homeless people, maybe even led some of them to eternity with Jesus through her humble and meek lifestyle. But Mother Teresa definitely wasn't the type of person to go up to a pulpit, quote a number of Bible verses, smile a lot, and then have a ton of people come up to the altar and give their lives to Christ. It just wasn't in her personality. But despite that I never personally viewed Mother Teresa as, A GREAT LEADER, I would DEFINITELY view the lady as a GREAT WOMAN OF GOD, and I would further wager dollars to donuts, she'll be spending all of eternity with God in Heaven. Simply put, Mother Teresa's ministry was that of a Servant, not a Leader.
I have witnessed a Pastor who had a severe Speech Impediment and Stuttering problem as a youngster, and sometimes when you hear this man talk, you can notice remnants of that speaking problem even now as an adult. But when this guy is talking about the word of God or preaching, he sounds every bit as eloquent as John Lynn or Joel Osteen. Call it the Holy Spirit or whatever, but it's like God really wants people to fully comprehend this guy whenever he's talking about the Bible.
Bottom Line: There's probably a very good reason as to why Leaders wind up becoming Leaders. Maybe, for the most part, the confidence and demeanor seem to be in their DNA or personality. Then every once in a while, God will surprise everybody and give us a Leader that we just didn't see coming. I suppose it all boils down to, who the heck really knows?
"Looks" is the operative term. JAL is not ADVERTISING the points where he left twi because his audience is extwi. So, no blatant stuff about Momentus or PP or anything else he got into no matter how hard he's pushing it now. Perhaps he learned from vpw that you can pretend you don't do something at all if you never do it while the cameras are rolling.
I sometimes wonder if he tells folks (who aren't ex-twi) that most all the stuff he learned and is teaching now was from twi? He didn't mention it in the interview and I think it would be the honest thing to do. Of course perhaps he won't because twi has developed a bad reputation and he doesn't want his teachings to be diminished or disparaged.
Wow, this guy's really upfront about his aims. If you send him a mere Aus$30, he'll give you a personal prophecy.
Or for a mere Aus$25, you can see a picture of your personal angel, learn the angel's name, and get a message from that angel.
His personal goal is this (lifted from his facebook page)
A few months later I was writing my first New York Times bestseller. Three weeks ago, the same witness from heaven said that
I would one day be a second Solomon in wisdom and wealth.
Yesterday, a second witness from heaven said that I would become the wealthiest person in the world. When this was said, it confirmed the line about me being Solomon [note, not even "a second Soloman"]. As he was the wealthiest man in his day.
I don't know if John Lynn was involved in any way with this guy, but heck, there's obviously a lot of money in personal prophecy.
Offhand, I can't recall any scriptures saying that prophets should charge. Quite the contrary. I recall a scripture where a prophet specifically declines any kind of payment. The names Elisha, Naaman and Gehazi (the Greedy) come to mind. Read all about it in 2 Kings 5.
I sometimes wonder if he tells folks (who aren't ex-twi) that most all the stuff he learned and is teaching now was from twi? He didn't mention it in the interview and I think it would be the honest thing to do. Of course perhaps he won't because twi has developed a bad reputation and he doesn't want his teachings to be diminished or disparaged.
Of course he won't tell people unless they ask. His ministry is about him, not about wierwille.
Of course he won't tell people unless they ask. His ministry is about him, not about wierwille.
This way, he "gets the best of both worlds." Ex-twi who care already know who he is/was. Nbw's who would react negatively to hearing that his training came primarily from imitating a plagiarizing rapist don't hear about that. His silence on where he was taught is common for ex-twi "ministers" who want to remain in charge.
And, yes, this way he gets to make it about him and not about wierwille.
what makes a "leader" depends on who's defining it.
If one thinks "a leader is not a boss, and a leader cares about the people while a boss just bosses them around", then there are not as many leaders out there since many are bosses. twi provided great training in how to boss people around. It did NOT provide training in how to LEAD because vpw knew how to boss people around, and avoided ALL programs that would have taught him to LEAD, whether in college, or after, or outside of a school setting. vpw had neither background nor training in actual LEADING, so he couldn't pass on what he himself didn't know. When looking at lcm's biographical snapshot of vpw, when lcm thought he was showing what a great LEADER vpw was, he was exposing what a BOSSY BOSS he was. When something was unpleasant, vpw was quick to insist that OTHERS had to do it, and NEVER led by example. "Here, I'll do it and show you how"- something vpw NEVER said about anything difficult or unpleasant. He was quick to yell at others and claim it was to TEACH them or TOUGHEN THEM UP if asked (which was rare enough.)
So, for the amount of people who were trained by twi, the number of actual "LEADERS" is pretty small, and fewer still if you count those who climbed to the top of the twi hierarchy. There were probably lots of good LEADERS in local homes running "fellowships" and maybe branches, but above that, you were climbing the ladder. In twi, that was the result of ambition, which, IMHO, doesn't mix that well with actual leadership ability.
If you count "leader" as "one who vaults to the front, monopolizes the microphone, and tells people what to do," then that's a different story. LOTS of those people were groomed by twi to do exactly that, so there's plenty who decided to continue that after leaving twi. IMHO, that was the rule, not the exception, the higher up the twi ladder people got (of course, there were exceptions.) So, if "confidence and demeanor" are considered critical for "leadership" (i.e. "he looks and sounds like a leader, and that's good enough for me"), then twi produced many "leaders." If they're a nice ingredient but not as important as caring for people and making wise decisions, then they are not.
Getting back to JAL, he's got a proven, PUBLIC track record of making unwise decisions in the context of leadership. On the other hand, he looks confident and has a casual demeanor. Does that make him an AWFUL leader, or a FANTASTIC leader? That's up to whoever is asking.
what makes a "leader" depends on who's defining it.
If one thinks "a leader is not a boss, and a leader cares about the people while a boss just bosses them around", then there are not as many leaders out there since many are bosses. twi provided great training in how to boss people around. It did NOT provide training in how to LEAD because vpw knew how to boss people around, and avoided ALL programs that would have taught him to LEAD, whether in college, or after, or outside of a school setting. vpw had neither background nor training in actual LEADING, so he couldn't pass on what he himself didn't know. When looking at lcm's biographical snapshot of vpw, when lcm thought he was showing what a great LEADER vpw was, he was exposing what a BOSSY BOSS he was. When something was unpleasant, vpw was quick to insist that OTHERS had to do it, and NEVER led by example. "Here, I'll do it and show you how"- something vpw NEVER said about anything difficult or unpleasant. He was quick to yell at others and claim it was to TEACH them or TOUGHEN THEM UP if asked (which was rare enough.)
So, for the amount of people who were trained by twi, the number of actual "LEADERS" is pretty small, and fewer still if you count those who climbed to the top of the twi hierarchy. There were probably lots of good LEADERS in local homes running "fellowships" and maybe branches, but above that, you were climbing the ladder. In twi, that was the result of ambition, which, IMHO, doesn't mix that well with actual leadership ability.
If you count "leader" as "one who vaults to the front, monopolizes the microphone, and tells people what to do," then that's a different story. LOTS of those people were groomed by twi to do exactly that, so there's plenty who decided to continue that after leaving twi. IMHO, that was the rule, not the exception, the higher up the twi ladder people got (of course, there were exceptions.) So, if "confidence and demeanor" are considered critical for "leadership" (i.e. "he looks and sounds like a leader, and that's good enough for me"), then twi produced many "leaders." If they're a nice ingredient but not as important as caring for people and making wise decisions, then they are not.
Getting back to JAL, he's got a proven, PUBLIC track record of making unwise decisions in the context of leadership. On the other hand, he looks confident and has a casual demeanor. Does that make him an AWFUL leader, or a FANTASTIC leader? That's up to whoever is asking.
WW, in other words, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
As a representative of an offshoot, JAL epitomizes the logical output of TWI – a “ministry” which wierwille himself derived – like some parasitic insect…by plagiarizing, hijacking, and using basic-megalomaniac-bossy-pants-feats-of abuse, shoved an insidious idea down the throats of anyone who would listen; this idea was the key element in any sales pitch promoting TWI…the idea being that wierwille/TWI had cornered the market on correctly interpreting the Bible.
This insidious idea continued with JAL – as evident in an early letter from him suggesting his group - leaving the drudgery of servitude to TWI was like the Hebrews of old escaping the bondage of Egypt with all their gold.
In my opinion, JAL is more along the lines of a motivational speaker…a salesman. What is he selling?
Having been through way corps training I remember much of it was geared to developing myself as first a good salesman and then learning to manage those who I have motivated to get or stay involved with TWI.
After reading the passage outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (drawing an analogy between parts of the body to roles of importance in a church organization), if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship? Personally, I would Ordain Mother T 'in a New York minute' because I know for a fact how important it is to have a fair amount of Servants (especially people who enjoy it and are good at it), as well as good quality Leaders serving as Pastor or Board of Trustees/Elders/Deacons to help manage and push the church in the right direction.
I know of a Baptist church near me, which completely dissolved recently because its Pastor, who had the ability to deliver a Prayer or a Sermon like William F. Buckley Jr., couldn't really delegate responsibility or do anything else. As with VPW and Craig, this guy loved to "hit on" the lady-folk in the congregation, but since this church was literally floundering with about a dozen members for its nearly two decade existence, there never was a whole heck of a lot of "hot chicks" to pick from. Come to think of it, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that this church I'm referring to went, "belly up".
But as was mentioned earlier on this thread, Humility might be the greatest characteristic of all when you're talking about someone you really want Leading a Church -- even over Knowledge of the Bible or the savvy to delegate others on a given task. Humility made a Church Leader like the late Billy Graham truly one of a kind. I'm sure if, for example, there was ever any hint of infidelity in Graham's marriage, the mainstream media would've exposed that a heck of a lot quicker than it did with either Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart. Graham had too much respect and reverence not only to God, but for the woman he was married to, to allow himself to engage in something like that. Humility is also a characteristic you can't really teach or study at a Ministry college, or even Corps training -- you either got it or you don't.
Getting back to Mother Teresa, can you imagine either: VPW, or Craig, or Chris G33R, or even JAL comforting, embracing or giving some semblance of hope to someone suffering from Leprosy or AIDS? In all fairness to our great Ministry leaders of the past, I too would probably have reservations -- unless it was a close relative of mine -- to physically embrace and comfort someone with a terminal illness like that. The more I think about, it seems like our salvation for Eternal Life is more contingent on what's in our Hearts, as opposed to what's in our Heads. I don't know.
Bottom Line: If an individual lacks Humility, they really ought to consider another endeavor in life other than trying to lead a Church. That's my rant of the day, at least till tomorrow.
Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ'
As a representative of an offshoot, JAL epitomizes the logical output of TWI – a “ministry” which wierwille himself derived – like some parasitic insect…by plagiarizing, hijacking, and using basic-megalomaniac-bossy-pants-feats-of abuse, shoved an insidious idea down the throats of anyone who would listen; this idea was the key element in any sales pitch promoting TWI…the idea being that wierwille/TWI had cornered the market on correctly interpreting the Bible.
This insidious idea continued with JAL – as evident in an early letter from him suggesting his group - leaving the drudgery of servitude to TWI was like the Hebrews of old escaping the bondage of Egypt with all their gold.
In my opinion, JAL is more along the lines of a motivational speaker…a salesman. What is he selling?
[uHaving been through way corps training I remember much of it was geared to developing myself as first a good salesman and then learning to manage those who I have motivated to get or stay involved with TWI.[/u]
The ONLY kind of actual "training" that twi used, as in, administering a professional curriculum and taught by someone who understood the material- was in SALES. vpw had them use the Dale Carnegie sales course to teach the Corps. As you might expect, he plagiarized it and never paid the copyright holders to run the course, not even once.
That showed vpw's priorities. More than anything else, he wanted a trained SALES FORCE, not a trained group of MINISTERS.
Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ'
Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread.
[quote']"...if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship?...."[/quote]
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They might do any of a number of things. Then again, as people qualified to judge who should be ordained, both fell FAR short of the mark, and I would sooner trust a roll of the dice to determine suitability than either of them. vpw might have ordained her- if he thought she was hot and thought he could get into her pants that way. Knowing what we know of her, I suspect he would not ordain her, because he would think of her as neither "someone he could have sex with" nor "someone who could sell the classes and twi experience." I know lcm got all his "training" from vpw, so I'd suspect many of the same answers from him, but I'd be less certain of what he'd do, especially since he became erratic during the 1990s.
Why should we care if either of them would think someone was suitable for ordination or not?
Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread.
No, I said one guy did a GREAT teaching on JCING (imo)...and no, I did not say anything about 'joining' anything...I must say I'm quite surprised you of all people 'double misquoting' someone else !! peace brother
Remember this? "The greatest leader is the greatest servant." VPW and LCM used to say they were "serving" us by teaching us - all those hours they spent "researching" so as to come up with a teaching on Sunday and for Corps meetings. Therefore, we should "serve" them by tending to those things that they didn't have time to do.
In "normal" life, how many church ministers need to have heaps of unpaid people cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? None that I know of! And if they did have someone to do these things, they'd be sure to pay them.
Likewise, in "normal" life, how many academics - uni professors, heads of depts, and the like - need to have heaps of unpaid people (= the very students they are teaching) cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? Again, none that I know of! Oh wait. I know one retired professor did have one student who occasionally looked after his garden, when his studies didn't get in the way - and the prof paid the student very well for doing so, too.
Allan: "Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ' "
WW: "Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread. "
Allan: "No, I said one guy did a GREAT teaching on JCING (imo)...and no, I did not say anything about 'joining' anything...I must say I'm quite surprised you of all people 'double misquoting' someone else !! peace brother"
WordWolf: So, once again, "I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, ESPECIALLY IN THIS THREAD." I see no connection to the actual discussion. Was this just a commercial for his teaching? Was this just a commercial for his group? Was this just "I felt like saying that, so I picked this thread at random to post it"? Why did you bring this up specifically, especially in this thread?"
Remember this? "The greatest leader is the greatest servant." VPW and LCM used to say they were "serving" us by teaching us - all those hours they spent "researching" so as to come up with a teaching on Sunday and for Corps meetings. Therefore, we should "serve" them by tending to those things that they didn't have time to do.
In "normal" life, how many church ministers need to have heaps of unpaid people cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? None that I know of! And if they did have someone to do these things, they'd be sure to pay them.
Likewise, in "normal" life, how many academics - uni professors, heads of depts, and the like - need to have heaps of unpaid people (= the very students they are teaching) cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? Again, none that I know of! Oh wait. I know one retired professor did have one student who occasionally looked after his garden, when his studies didn't get in the way - and the prof paid the student very well for doing so, too.
Hypocrisy was pretty much the name-of-the-game for vpw. He could expound for hours on the love of God and even "the love I have for you", then turn around, embezzle the money, and drug and rape the women he just said he loved. The words he spoke were NOT from the heart. vpw taught that in his inner circle, too. lcm documented how he felt offended if he saw vpw even pretend to do any physical work around the grounds. In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
Hypocrisy was pretty much the name-of-the-game for vpw. He could expound for hours on the love of God and even "the love I have for you", then turn around, embezzle the money, and drug and rape the women he just said he loved. The words he spoke were NOT from the heart. vpw taught that in his inner circle, too. lcm documented how he felt offended if he saw vpw even pretend to do any physical work around the grounds. In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
WW, in other words; VPW didn't want to take responsibility for his poor health care choices. He smoked, and drank for decades, yet blamed something else for his Cancer. What a jerk!!
Hypocrisy was pretty much the name-of-the-game for vpw. He could expound for hours on the love of God and even "the love I have for you", then turn around, embezzle the money, and drug and rape the women he just said he loved. The words he spoke were NOT from the heart. vpw taught that in his inner circle, too. lcm documented how he felt offended if he saw vpw even pretend to do any physical work around the grounds. In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
So has JAL ever addressed or exposed the hypocrisy of wierwille? Seriously – I’m just asking anyone familiar with his body of work…I mean whatever supposed “gold” he got out of wierwille/TWI and whatever “qualifications” or “credentials” he got from them might have an insidious quality to it…like picking up a chunk of graphite that was blown out of the Chernobyl reactor disaster…I mean think about Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”
In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
Allan: "Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ' "
WW: "Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread. "
Allan: "No, I said one guy did a GREAT teaching on JCING (imo)...and no, I did not say anything about 'joining' anything...I must say I'm quite surprised you of all people 'double misquoting' someone else !! peace brother"
WordWolf: So, once again, "I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, ESPECIALLY IN THIS THREAD." I see no connection to the actual discussion. Was this just a commercial for his teaching? Was this just a commercial for his group? Was this just "I felt like saying that, so I picked this thread at random to post it"? Why did you bring this up specifically, especially in this thread?"
I happened to bring it up because on the original thread there was a blurb on JL and his stance on the trinity :)
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socks
Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was ki
socks
9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life. To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's
T-Bone
Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the con
Rocky
[Actually, it wasn't TLC that said it, it was "Duke Baxter." I just quoted from TLC's post.]
Really? Not one iota of that post smacks of real anything to me... except something that would be impolite to articulate.
It's not often I agree with TLC, but on this point I certainly do.
Edited by RockyFurther, I don't see where either JAL or Osteen are humble. But maybe I'm just not looking in the right place.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Regarding the NOT service oriented teaching of so called "personal prophecy" I found the information and am now remembering my opposition to this doctrinal and especially practical error. What this was about was to lord over God's heritage. It was not for service to followers of Jesus Christ. They were using this so called new doctrine to form a new hierarchy of leadership with more money to be received. This was not only used by CES, but used by the following
Here is the link that shows this. https://personal-prophecy-today.com/
Here is a link to an article which explains the problem that I saw about 15 or 20 years ago, but did not remember the details of. So called personal prophecy was being used for political mixed with religious power and authority. John's wife I think saw the problem with this and tried to correct them, but was obstructed. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_cesCrisis.htm
The person who wrote this article did a very good job in factual, truthful and practical writing. I give him a grade of "A". As an example, he wrote,
A theocracy is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god."
The person also wrote the following. I recommend reading this article with link above.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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Duke Baxter
Funny story, when I was attending a local college many, many years ago, I was enrolled in an elective course, 'The Bible as Literature'. I remember having the opportunity to ask one of my classmates what he thought about the Bible, which he replied that it was just a book full of myths, Fairy Tales, and contradictions. When I asked him to give me just one example of a contradiction in the Bible, off the top of his head, he immediately responded and cited Jesus's statement about, 'the Meek shall inherit the Earth' being obviously bullBLEEP since there was never any evidence of that happening, even anytime soon. Now I realize that Moses was never an eloquent man but God promised to give him the words if he agreed to lead God's people. I'm also aware of a passage of scripture which states that God uses the simple to confound the wise.
So with that all said, I can't see how one can become a successful TV evangelist today without being intelligent, eloquent, and having a good working knowledge of God's Word. Keep in mind, with somebody like Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn, their church services are literally broadcast all over world through the Internet or Satellite TV.
One of the many things I passionately disagreed with about the Ministry was that EVERYBODY IS QUALIFIED TO BE A GREAT LEADER. Was Mother Teresa ever considered, A GREAT LEADER? I don't think so. Mother T was a great servant, she gave a lot of hope to sick and homeless people, maybe even led some of them to eternity with Jesus through her humble and meek lifestyle. But Mother Teresa definitely wasn't the type of person to go up to a pulpit, quote a number of Bible verses, smile a lot, and then have a ton of people come up to the altar and give their lives to Christ. It just wasn't in her personality. But despite that I never personally viewed Mother Teresa as, A GREAT LEADER, I would DEFINITELY view the lady as a GREAT WOMAN OF GOD, and I would further wager dollars to donuts, she'll be spending all of eternity with God in Heaven. Simply put, Mother Teresa's ministry was that of a Servant, not a Leader.
I have witnessed a Pastor who had a severe Speech Impediment and Stuttering problem as a youngster, and sometimes when you hear this man talk, you can notice remnants of that speaking problem even now as an adult. But when this guy is talking about the word of God or preaching, he sounds every bit as eloquent as John Lynn or Joel Osteen. Call it the Holy Spirit or whatever, but it's like God really wants people to fully comprehend this guy whenever he's talking about the Bible.
Bottom Line: There's probably a very good reason as to why Leaders wind up becoming Leaders. Maybe, for the most part, the confidence and demeanor seem to be in their DNA or personality. Then every once in a while, God will surprise everybody and give us a Leader that we just didn't see coming. I suppose it all boils down to, who the heck really knows?
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WordWolf
Here was a thread on Personal Prophecy... "Step Right Up, Get Your Own Personal Prophecy"
Here was a thread on Momentus... "CES and Momentous."
Here was another, "Momentus"...
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oldiesman
I sometimes wonder if he tells folks (who aren't ex-twi) that most all the stuff he learned and is teaching now was from twi? He didn't mention it in the interview and I think it would be the honest thing to do. Of course perhaps he won't because twi has developed a bad reputation and he doesn't want his teachings to be diminished or disparaged.
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Twinky
Wow, this guy's really upfront about his aims. If you send him a mere Aus$30, he'll give you a personal prophecy.
Or for a mere Aus$25, you can see a picture of your personal angel, learn the angel's name, and get a message from that angel.
His personal goal is this (lifted from his facebook page)
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Rocky
Of course he won't tell people unless they ask. His ministry is about him, not about wierwille.
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WordWolf
This way, he "gets the best of both worlds." Ex-twi who care already know who he is/was. Nbw's who would react negatively to hearing that his training came primarily from imitating a plagiarizing rapist don't hear about that. His silence on where he was taught is common for ex-twi "ministers" who want to remain in charge.
And, yes, this way he gets to make it about him and not about wierwille.
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WordWolf
BTW,
what makes a "leader" depends on who's defining it.
If one thinks "a leader is not a boss, and a leader cares about the people while a boss just bosses them around", then there are not as many leaders out there since many are bosses. twi provided great training in how to boss people around. It did NOT provide training in how to LEAD because vpw knew how to boss people around, and avoided ALL programs that would have taught him to LEAD, whether in college, or after, or outside of a school setting. vpw had neither background nor training in actual LEADING, so he couldn't pass on what he himself didn't know. When looking at lcm's biographical snapshot of vpw, when lcm thought he was showing what a great LEADER vpw was, he was exposing what a BOSSY BOSS he was. When something was unpleasant, vpw was quick to insist that OTHERS had to do it, and NEVER led by example. "Here, I'll do it and show you how"- something vpw NEVER said about anything difficult or unpleasant. He was quick to yell at others and claim it was to TEACH them or TOUGHEN THEM UP if asked (which was rare enough.)
So, for the amount of people who were trained by twi, the number of actual "LEADERS" is pretty small, and fewer still if you count those who climbed to the top of the twi hierarchy. There were probably lots of good LEADERS in local homes running "fellowships" and maybe branches, but above that, you were climbing the ladder. In twi, that was the result of ambition, which, IMHO, doesn't mix that well with actual leadership ability.
If you count "leader" as "one who vaults to the front, monopolizes the microphone, and tells people what to do," then that's a different story. LOTS of those people were groomed by twi to do exactly that, so there's plenty who decided to continue that after leaving twi. IMHO, that was the rule, not the exception, the higher up the twi ladder people got (of course, there were exceptions.) So, if "confidence and demeanor" are considered critical for "leadership" (i.e. "he looks and sounds like a leader, and that's good enough for me"), then twi produced many "leaders." If they're a nice ingredient but not as important as caring for people and making wise decisions, then they are not.
Getting back to JAL, he's got a proven, PUBLIC track record of making unwise decisions in the context of leadership. On the other hand, he looks confident and has a casual demeanor. Does that make him an AWFUL leader, or a FANTASTIC leader? That's up to whoever is asking.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, in other words, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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T-Bone
As a representative of an offshoot, JAL epitomizes the logical output of TWI – a “ministry” which wierwille himself derived – like some parasitic insect…by plagiarizing, hijacking, and using basic-megalomaniac-bossy-pants-feats-of abuse, shoved an insidious idea down the throats of anyone who would listen; this idea was the key element in any sales pitch promoting TWI…the idea being that wierwille/TWI had cornered the market on correctly interpreting the Bible.
This insidious idea continued with JAL – as evident in an early letter from him suggesting his group - leaving the drudgery of servitude to TWI was like the Hebrews of old escaping the bondage of Egypt with all their gold.
In my opinion, JAL is more along the lines of a motivational speaker…a salesman. What is he selling?
Having been through way corps training I remember much of it was geared to developing myself as first a good salesman and then learning to manage those who I have motivated to get or stay involved with TWI.
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Duke Baxter
After reading the passage outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (drawing an analogy between parts of the body to roles of importance in a church organization), if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship? Personally, I would Ordain Mother T 'in a New York minute' because I know for a fact how important it is to have a fair amount of Servants (especially people who enjoy it and are good at it), as well as good quality Leaders serving as Pastor or Board of Trustees/Elders/Deacons to help manage and push the church in the right direction.
I know of a Baptist church near me, which completely dissolved recently because its Pastor, who had the ability to deliver a Prayer or a Sermon like William F. Buckley Jr., couldn't really delegate responsibility or do anything else. As with VPW and Craig, this guy loved to "hit on" the lady-folk in the congregation, but since this church was literally floundering with about a dozen members for its nearly two decade existence, there never was a whole heck of a lot of "hot chicks" to pick from. Come to think of it, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that this church I'm referring to went, "belly up".
But as was mentioned earlier on this thread, Humility might be the greatest characteristic of all when you're talking about someone you really want Leading a Church -- even over Knowledge of the Bible or the savvy to delegate others on a given task. Humility made a Church Leader like the late Billy Graham truly one of a kind. I'm sure if, for example, there was ever any hint of infidelity in Graham's marriage, the mainstream media would've exposed that a heck of a lot quicker than it did with either Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart. Graham had too much respect and reverence not only to God, but for the woman he was married to, to allow himself to engage in something like that. Humility is also a characteristic you can't really teach or study at a Ministry college, or even Corps training -- you either got it or you don't.
Getting back to Mother Teresa, can you imagine either: VPW, or Craig, or Chris G33R, or even JAL comforting, embracing or giving some semblance of hope to someone suffering from Leprosy or AIDS? In all fairness to our great Ministry leaders of the past, I too would probably have reservations -- unless it was a close relative of mine -- to physically embrace and comfort someone with a terminal illness like that. The more I think about, it seems like our salvation for Eternal Life is more contingent on what's in our Hearts, as opposed to what's in our Heads. I don't know.
Bottom Line: If an individual lacks Humility, they really ought to consider another endeavor in life other than trying to lead a Church. That's my rant of the day, at least till tomorrow.
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Allan
Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ'
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WordWolf
The ONLY kind of actual "training" that twi used, as in, administering a professional curriculum and taught by someone who understood the material- was in SALES. vpw had them use the Dale Carnegie sales course to teach the Corps. As you might expect, he plagiarized it and never paid the copyright holders to run the course, not even once.
That showed vpw's priorities. More than anything else, he wanted a trained SALES FORCE, not a trained group of MINISTERS.
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WordWolf
Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread.
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WordWolf
[quote']"...if Mother Teresa had graduated from the Corps program, for example, do you think that either VPW, or Craig, would "Ordain" her as a Reverend or a Pastor in the Ministry? Or, do you think these guys would refuse to Ordain her because she couldn't successfully lead and manage a Fellowship?...."[/quote]
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They might do any of a number of things. Then again, as people qualified to judge who should be ordained, both fell FAR short of the mark, and I would sooner trust a roll of the dice to determine suitability than either of them. vpw might have ordained her- if he thought she was hot and thought he could get into her pants that way. Knowing what we know of her, I suspect he would not ordain her, because he would think of her as neither "someone he could have sex with" nor "someone who could sell the classes and twi experience." I know lcm got all his "training" from vpw, so I'd suspect many of the same answers from him, but I'd be less certain of what he'd do, especially since he became erratic during the 1990s.
Why should we care if either of them would think someone was suitable for ordination or not?
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Allan
No, I said one guy did a GREAT teaching on JCING (imo)...and no, I did not say anything about 'joining' anything...I must say I'm quite surprised you of all people 'double misquoting' someone else !! peace brother
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Twinky
Remember this? "The greatest leader is the greatest servant." VPW and LCM used to say they were "serving" us by teaching us - all those hours they spent "researching" so as to come up with a teaching on Sunday and for Corps meetings. Therefore, we should "serve" them by tending to those things that they didn't have time to do.
In "normal" life, how many church ministers need to have heaps of unpaid people cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? None that I know of! And if they did have someone to do these things, they'd be sure to pay them.
Likewise, in "normal" life, how many academics - uni professors, heads of depts, and the like - need to have heaps of unpaid people (= the very students they are teaching) cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? Again, none that I know of! Oh wait. I know one retired professor did have one student who occasionally looked after his garden, when his studies didn't get in the way - and the prof paid the student very well for doing so, too.
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WordWolf
Allan: "Jon Nessle from CFFM has done one of the best teachings on JCING that I have heard since being out of twi...from memory it's called 'Who is this Jesus Christ' "
WW: "Ok, so one guy taught one good teaching. Are you saying we should be joining his outfit as a result? I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, especially in this thread. "
Allan: "No, I said one guy did a GREAT teaching on JCING (imo)...and no, I did not say anything about 'joining' anything...I must say I'm quite surprised you of all people 'double misquoting' someone else !! peace brother"
WordWolf: So, once again, "I'm unclear why you brought this up specifically, ESPECIALLY IN THIS THREAD." I see no connection to the actual discussion. Was this just a commercial for his teaching? Was this just a commercial for his group? Was this just "I felt like saying that, so I picked this thread at random to post it"? Why did you bring this up specifically, especially in this thread?"
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WordWolf
Hypocrisy was pretty much the name-of-the-game for vpw. He could expound for hours on the love of God and even "the love I have for you", then turn around, embezzle the money, and drug and rape the women he just said he loved. The words he spoke were NOT from the heart. vpw taught that in his inner circle, too. lcm documented how he felt offended if he saw vpw even pretend to do any physical work around the grounds. In reality, a little cardio would have done vpw a world of good, especially with all the alcohol and tobacco he was ingesting. His heart needed help. As he was going, it probably would have given out on him if he hadn't already been dead of cancer.
(For those who forget, he smoked A LOT for decades, and drank a lot. Tobacco is known to cause cancer. Alcohol is known to weaken the immune system. vpw claimed that he got the cancer from bright studio lights- which are NOT known to cause cancer, otherwise we'd have stage actors dropping dead of cancer all over the world. The closest thing we have to "bright lights I used for 1 1/2 WEEKS gave my eye cancer" is reports that people using WELDERS and BLOW TORCHES have an increased risk if they're used for several YEARS.)
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, in other words; VPW didn't want to take responsibility for his poor health care choices. He smoked, and drank for decades, yet blamed something else for his Cancer. What a jerk!!
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T-Bone
So has JAL ever addressed or exposed the hypocrisy of wierwille? Seriously – I’m just asking anyone familiar with his body of work…I mean whatever supposed “gold” he got out of wierwille/TWI and whatever “qualifications” or “credentials” he got from them might have an insidious quality to it…like picking up a chunk of graphite that was blown out of the Chernobyl reactor disaster…I mean think about Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”
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Rocky
Alcohol, especially chronic alcohol abuse like veepee did, is also known to cause cancer.
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Allan
I happened to bring it up because on the original thread there was a blurb on JL and his stance on the trinity :)
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