the sexual culture/abuse in the way and me...

[Twinky]

My friend is the safeguarding officer at a big church.  There have been over the years various issues.  What exactly do you do with the paedophile in your congregation?  The rapist?  The man who beats his wife?  Especially if the victim is also a member of the same congregation!

The church recognises that ALL are sinners.  ALL of us have sins; some are more obvious and some are still hidden away.  And so the church continues to welcome these people into the congregation.  Forgiveness, yes, but wisdom too.  There is a price to pay.  Perhaps an abuser may not attend certain services (which the victims attend).  Perhaps an abuser may only attend if someone else (a nominated person) is also there. I don't know all the rules for ordinary congregants, I only know that each case is determined on its own circumstances.  And every care is taken to ensure the safety of vulnerable people, of victims. The diocese would deal with abusive clergy; there are other rules for such.   

Safeguarding is taken very seriously these days.  Pretty much all churches have safeguarding policies which are openly available on their websites.  Nominated persons are named, with contact details.  Anyone who has any contact in a leadership-type capacity with children or vulnerable adults has to get a police-type clearance certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service.  (This doesn't apply just to churches.)

Where is TWI's safeguarding policy?  I don't see a link on their website.  Anyway, it'd probably still be the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

Nor does CFFM appear to have a safeguarding policy.

[waysider]

24 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Where is TWI's safeguarding policy?

You don't need a safeguarding policy when you have a direct connection to God../s

[Twinky]

Ah, yeah.  Revelation.  Direct from God himself.

 

But seriously... we all know how sneaky abuse was, in TWI.  And some women know better than others.

And we've all heard of the abuses that took place in major denominations, that were covered up for decades.

[annio]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:22 AM, T-Bone said:

Hi again Annio,

having slept on it – the thought occurred to me that I was more concerned about digging myself out of a hole than listening to what you said...I also realize the shallowness and narrow-mindedness of my previous post...The thought never occurred to me to consider the perspective of evil done TO a person -    -  or any trauma they were powerless to prevent.

In the flow of this thread, I had in mind the three types of people in a harmful and exploitative cult: 1. the predator     2.  the facilitator     and     3. the victim...  

...a facilitator is a person who makes an action or process easy or easier – such as the process of exploiting or hurting others...I was a facilitator in TWI. I was not a predator nor a victim. By wholeheartedly supporting TWI with my finances, volunteer work, spreading their propaganda, and getting others to join this pseudo-Christian organization, I was making the work of the predators a lot easier by hiding the trek to the slaughterhouse from the eyes of the sheep... Facilitators don't necessarily have to know what they're really facilitating – like even a harmful and exploitative cult ...maybe that makes me somewhat of a victim too - getting suckered in to be a facilitator. 

Perhaps the lack of depth in my previous post came from old facilitator habits – thinking there's an easier way to fix this...I hope you can accept my sincere apology.
 

OMGosh, T-Bone, thank you SO VERY MUCH for your amazing replies! I am blown away by the depth, heart, and connections you make/offer. I will reread  all you wrote, and let it sink in. Perhaps it is all the more meaningful as my own daughter has suffered from tough mental health issues (depression, etc); thank you again for sharing all you did!!

[annio]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:09 PM, Twinky said:

 

 

Sarah was a victim, too, of her parents' nurture of her.  As were all the Wierwille kids.  An abusive father, domineering and fickle; and a weak mother, who knew what was right and didn't stand up for it.

Some have said we're all victims of our parents.  Maybe so.  But as adults, we can also recognise that our parents were themselves flawed individuals.  Be kind, be compassionate, be long-suffering: but do take off the rose-tinted glasses.

There's quite a lot in the OT about the "sins of the fathers" being passed down through generations.  That seems to me to refer to nurture, habits of raising children, poor lessons learned from parents by children.  It doesn't mean that children "bear" the sins of their fathers and have to pay for them, it's more in the meaning of the children having learned from their parents' bad habits and not having learned better.  It might not even about sinful, criminal or quasi-criminal acts. It might include patterns of speech, curtness or courtesy; habits of action - miserliness or generosity; ways of treating other people; habits of life - slovenliness or orderliness.

Yet there are also promises of forgiveness if children shall turn away from the less socially desirable ways of their parents: a child of violent parents turns away from violence as his way of life; a child of a thief turns away from criminality as his way of life; a rude person realises it's not all about themselves and learns pleasantness towards others.  And a child of an abuser turns away from abuse, in whatever form, towards his/her own children and others around him.

Exodus 34:7 - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 - Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 

Numbers 14:18 - The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

So thoughtful and true Twinky, re: childhood, and Sarah being a victim in some respects. Yes, very sadly... And thank you so much for the Biblical truths, and how our loving Heavenly Father guides, corrects, explains, teaches, ETC!!! Will give your post more consideration soon!

[annio]

If I can share further FREEDOM AND HEALING HERE- I chose not to get involved w/ Jesus Movement folks in '72 b/c of my indoctrination/beliefs that I now remember came from Inter-Varsity CF's anti-Charismatic movement stance tht I was totallyl involved w/ during my college years. "You are raising your hands during singing? I am OUTTA HERE!" But a few years later I said YES to vpw's culture/doctrines/etc.

Now reading/viewing lots re: the Jesus Movement, I can actually "time travel back" and "chose" that Jesus-centered path, and connect to what that would have been like in key ways. And this a.m. I had a deeply spiritual re-attaching to the God and Jesus that I lost during my 35 years w/ the way and Chris Geer folks... SOO much fear and confusion gone, since I had had bad church experiences, saw all the denom fighting, etc. And then expereinced some of the worst of the abuses in the way. AMAZING!!! Bedst to you all here!!!!!!! 

 

[Stayed Too Long]

On 7/17/2021 at 11:32 AM, Twinky said:

My friend is the safeguarding officer at a big church.  There have been over the years various issues.  What exactly do you do with the paedophile in your congregation?  The rapist?  The man who beats his wife?  Especially if the victim is also a member of the same congregation!

The church recognises that ALL are sinners.  ALL of us have sins; some are more obvious and some are still hidden away.  And so the church continues to welcome these people into the congregation.  Forgiveness, yes, but wisdom too.  There is a price to pay.  Perhaps an abuser may not attend certain services (which the victims attend).  Perhaps an abuser may only attend if someone else (a nominated person) is also there. I don't know all the rules for ordinary congregants, I only know that each case is determined on its own circumstances.  And every care is taken to ensure the safety of vulnerable people, of victims. The diocese would deal with abusive clergy; there are other rules for such.   

Safeguarding is taken very seriously these days.  Pretty much all churches have safeguarding policies which are openly available on their websites.  Nominated persons are named, with contact details.  Anyone who has any contact in a leadership-type capacity with children or vulnerable adults has to get a police-type clearance certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service.  (This doesn't apply just to churches.)

Where is TWI's safeguarding policy?  I don't see a link on their website.  Anyway, it'd probably still be the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

Nor does CFFM appear to have a safeguarding policy.

What do you think of the law that requires all sexual abusers and violent offenders to register with the State they live in of their current addresses and the crimes they have committed? Their offenses are made available to anyone who does a search of offenders. They cannot live within a certain distance from schools and cannot hang out where children congregate. 
If I had children and these preditors showed up as one of my neighbors, you can bet I would instruct mt kids to keep away from them, and I would watch them like a hawk.

[Twinky]

Sexual and violent offenders should be, and in the UK are, required to register with police and/or other offenders.   And certainly paedophiles should not be allowed to live near schools and playgrounds.  Registering as a sex offender may be for a period (of years) or may be for life - depends on the severity of the offence.
https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/victims-witnesses-and-offenders/registering-as-a-sex-offender/

In the UK, we have provisions that (potential) partners can now approach some aspect of police to enquire whether a person with whom they are thinking of starting a relationship, or where they have concerns for a child, has a relevant record - whether they've been convicted of assaulting previous partners or children.  There is a strict procedure around this but I don't fully know the details, but there's some info in the link below.  It's to help women (usually) to avoid (usually) men who've abused previous partners or their children to avoid future risk.  Nobody wants to live with a violent rapist or kiddy-fiddler. 

These provisions are known colloquially as Sarah's law and Clare's law. 
 https://www.met.police.uk/rqo/request/ri/request-information/sarahs-law-beta/sarahs-law-child-sex-offender-disclosure-scheme/

But the information should not be widely (publicly) available.  Vigilante groups could otherwise access the information and carry out their own form of justice.