Brandeis made his famous statement that “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants” in a 1913Harper’s Weeklyarticle, entitled“What Publicity Can Do.”But it was an image that had been in his mind for decades. Twenty years earlier, in aletterto his fiance, Brandeis had expressed an interest in writing a “a sort of companion piece” to his influential article on“The Right to Privacy,”but this time he would focus on “The Duty of Publicity.” He had been thinking, he wrote, “about the wickedness of people shielding wrongdoers & passing them off (or at least allowing them to pass themselves off) as honest men.” He then proposed a remedy:
If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects.
cool stuff Rocky - thanks for the links...the Sunlight Foundation page looked very interesting
So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of- class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio camp. (The Wow's in southern VA had not signed up anyone else but myself and a co-worker who I talked in to accompanying me to the P-fil camp that year.) Thus, I was hood-winked into plenty of error and idolizings, along with some good Bible, sure. But being clobbered over the head and fire-hosed with vpw's doctrinal slants, and being introduced to such nit-pickings as how many crosses or cock crows there were (2 Timothy 2:16- avoid pointless discussions)... This was soon followed with more grooming in CF&S and as I wrote in a personal journal- "SO, there i was hooked in... and two weeks later, i was being further groomed as one of the young women who would be privileged to be raped by your young bucks." Am still in therapy and several support groups for various life traumas, and I WILL heal from this!! (Just decided to join a local church which is sooooo much safer, respectful, doctrinally diverse, truly loving, etc etc etc. Onward! And thank you again GSC-ers for the support, insights, and Truth!!!
Kudos to you Annio for being courageous to share your experiences and views of those predatory pigs...it raises awareness and concern...voices like yours are a secret weapon that those creeps never anticipated...makes me think of a bunker-buster bomb - - speaking out penetrates the hypocrisy and blasts open their depraved subculture...I wish you good health, happiness and recovery.
Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc.
Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY!
The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path...
THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!
Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle.
I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc.
Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY!
The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path...
THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!
Hi Annio, last night I watched the documentary Tina on HBO Max for the second time. But this time around it was on the heels of reading your latest post. The documentary seems to go along some similar themes of an ongoing sorting/healing process and dealing with past relationships.
Rotten Tomatoes critics consensus says “ Tina recounts the ups and downs of the singer's life with startling candor and insight, providing an inspiring testament to resilience.”
If you or anyone else hasn’t seen Tina yet I thought I’d post a few excerpts from a movie reviewer to pique your interest:
“Tina now lives in Zurich, with her husband, former record company executive Erwin Bach, and she sat down to be interviewed for the documentary (sometimes calling to her husband off-screen for confirmation of some detail). These interviews are interspersed with tape recordings of the interviews she did with Kurt Loder, who co-wrote her best-selling memoir I, Tina. Those conversations with Loder were more free-styling expression, often proclaiming her pain in a raw way: "Kurt, why did I get so far without any love in my life?"
Abandoned by both her parents, Anna Mae Bullock went to go see Ike Turner, heading up his R&B band. Tina describes almost falling into "a trance" when she saw him onstage. Ike heard Tina sing, and knew instantly she had to become part of his act. Ike had been burnt many times by collaborators abandoning him or taking credit for his work, and he used this against the young naive Tina as a way to keep her loyal and dependent. He saw dollar signs when he heard her sing, and while there's not necessarily anything sinister about that, it morphed into something extremely sinister very quickly, with Tina suffering frequent horrific beatings and violent sexual abuse. Tina was a hostage, not a wife...
...The documentary doesn't rely on social-worker talking-heads to explain why women stay in abusive situations (just one example of how the doc could have gone wrong). Instead, it sticks with Turner's experiences, through home movie footage, archival interviews with one of her sons as well as Ike himself…
...The issue of the abuse she suffered at the hands of Ike wasn't really known by the public until she decided to tell the story to People magazine in 1981. Ever since, she has been dogged by questions about it, even as her solo reputation soared into multi-platinum status. This not only frustrated her, but re-traumatized her all over again. She speaks very movingly of this. Her book was written, in part, to tell the story herself in the hopes that it would close the subject. Of course people were even more impertinent and curious. The 1993 movie "What's Love Got to Do With It?", starring Angela Bassett (who was interviewed for the documentary), and Laurence Fishburne as Ike, brought the toxic relationship once again back to the forefront, leading to another press tour where she had to answer disgusting questions like: "What was the worst part of the abuse?"
Hi Annio, last night I watched the documentary Tina on HBO Max for the second time. But this time around it was on the heels of reading your latest post. The documentary seems to go along some similar themes of an ongoing sorting/healing process and dealing with past relationships.
Rotten Tomatoes critics consensus says “ Tina recounts the ups and downs of the singer's life with startling candor and insight, providing an inspiring testament to resilience.”
If you or anyone else hasn’t seen Tina yet I thought I’d post a few excerpts from a movie reviewer to pique your interest:
“Tina now lives in Zurich, with her husband, former record company executive Erwin Bach, and she sat down to be interviewed for the documentary (sometimes calling to her husband off-screen for confirmation of some detail). These interviews are interspersed with tape recordings of the interviews she did with Kurt Loder, who co-wrote her best-selling memoir I, Tina. Those conversations with Loder were more free-styling expression, often proclaiming her pain in a raw way: "Kurt, why did I get so far without any love in my life?"
Abandoned by both her parents, Anna Mae Bullock went to go see Ike Turner, heading up his R&B band. Tina describes almost falling into "a trance" when she saw him onstage. Ike heard Tina sing, and knew instantly she had to become part of his act. Ike had been burnt many times by collaborators abandoning him or taking credit for his work, and he used this against the young naive Tina as a way to keep her loyal and dependent. He saw dollar signs when he heard her sing, and while there's not necessarily anything sinister about that, it morphed into something extremely sinister very quickly, with Tina suffering frequent horrific beatings and violent sexual abuse. Tina was a hostage, not a wife...
...The documentary doesn't rely on social-worker talking-heads to explain why women stay in abusive situations (just one example of how the doc could have gone wrong). Instead, it sticks with Turner's experiences, through home movie footage, archival interviews with one of her sons as well as Ike himself…
...The issue of the abuse she suffered at the hands of Ike wasn't really known by the public until she decided to tell the story to People magazine in 1981. Ever since, she has been dogged by questions about it, even as her solo reputation soared into multi-platinum status. This not only frustrated her, but re-traumatized her all over again. She speaks very movingly of this. Her book was written, in part, to tell the story herself in the hopes that it would close the subject. Of course people were even more impertinent and curious. The 1993 movie "What's Love Got to Do With It?", starring Angela Bassett (who was interviewed for the documentary), and Laurence Fishburne as Ike, brought the toxic relationship once again back to the forefront, leading to another press tour where she had to answer disgusting questions like: "What was the worst part of the abuse?"
T-Bone, I saw that movie several years ago. Great movie! I think Tina Turner, is a great singer, and an amazing woman. All that abuse, and she was still able to have a successful life. Wow!
Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.)
I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"...
But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.-
I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated."
The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen."
Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine.
To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!
Clarification- when I spoke of the "many sexual abusers", I was referring to ALL of the powerful men that the media has exposed with the #MeToo movement, in the Catholic and Protestant churches, etc.
Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.
I stopped to think ... having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.-
I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated."
The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen."
You may, and I'm glad you did... I figure it's good (for Sarah and her family) that she can look to much more about her father than what you so thoughtfully added. Life and lives are complex. She's a grandparent now and lives constantly with memory of her father's life. It may be small (minute) comfort that (she and) they acknowledged his imperfection and his narcissism, even though they can't help but put it to the side most of the time. But your added words seem to come from a place that has also given lots of thought to your situation. Thanks very much for sharing those words. I'd like to believe that Sarah would hear your words and respond with kindness and acknowledgment if she had the opportunity to sit face to face with you.
Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.)
I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"...
But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.-
I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated."
The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen."
Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine.
To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!
11 hours ago, annio said:
Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.
Great posts Annio!
It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind…
…we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams.
After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things:
1. sin is always the problem
and
2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them!
Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm…
Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship!
The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian…
…guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond…
…I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.
"I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I'm sure you realize that sounds nothing like someone who is even AWARE of vpw's predations no matter their firsthand knowledge. That sounds like someone who stopped short of saying "If he'd have lived to be 100, things would have been perfect" but sure THINKING it nonetheless. So, some people owe vpw their lives, and some people messed everything up.
She doesn't owe anyone an explanation, and she's not required to face reality, of course. But I thought you'd like to know, on the off-chance you missed that.
Great posts Annio!
It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind…
…we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams.
After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things:
1. sin is always the problem
and
2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them!
Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm…
Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship!
The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian…
…guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond…
…I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.
Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...
"I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I'm sure you realize that sounds nothing like someone who is even AWARE of vpw's predations no matter their firsthand knowledge. That sounds like someone who stopped short of saying "If he'd have lived to be 100, things would have been perfect" but sure THINKING it nonetheless. So, some people owe vpw their lives, and some people messed everything up.
She doesn't owe anyone an explanation, and she's not required to face reality, of course. But I thought you'd like to know, on the off-chance you missed that.
Oh MY!! WordWolf, REALLY appreciate this!!! Have shared and thought on these insights!!!
Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...
Annio,
I really appreciate your feedback – and would like to redeem myself after I failed to limit the application of my post...I was addressing interpersonal problems. - problems people have when relating to each other...for me, that's the extent of Jay Adams' points I referenced...I did mention in that post I have broadened my perspective far beyond Adams – and I have a great appreciation for all the legitimate medical treatments, medicine, research and therapies available – something that Adams lacked...I apologize for my lack of clarity and specificity.
I am sorry if I gave you the impression I was speaking to any and all problems that may come upon a person. You are right in mentioning the bigger picture of life and the ultimate priority of healing and deliverance...I totally agree with what you said so maybe I should clarify my perspective. Regarding mental health, medical professionals should be addressing the trauma that befalls a person – by any legitimate means possible – the various therapies, medications, developing technologies, continued research.
...A couple of years ago our daughter participated in a medical study using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a noninvasive form of brain stimulation – the research is still evolving but so far the diagnostic and therapeutic potential is promising in treating a wide variety of disease states in neurology and mental health.
Results for our daughter were amazing. She has down syndrome and had been diagnosed with clinical depression. To complicate matters she had become very withdrawn and didn't communicate much – it was a noticeable decline. The best we could figure out after talking to medical professionals and reading up on it – she may have been dealing with catatonia – but little is known about catatonia associated with down syndrome...But like I said the results of TMS for our daughter were amazing (the treatment was several times a week over a number of weeks). It was like we got our old daughter back. TMS seemed to have alleviated the catatonia thing and the depression is manageable.
She's definitely more outgoing now judging by the feedback we get from the staff at the day hab she attends...and every night we've been watching the series Friends on HBO Max – she will often ask what or why they're doing something – this is a lot of fun and she learns more about our culture...and if you were to visit our home she just might corner you and tell you all about her cat, favorite restaurants or something she wrote on the computer.
having slept on it – the thought occurred to me that I was more concerned about digging myself out of a hole than listening to what you said...I also realize the shallowness and narrow-mindedness of my previous post...The thought never occurred to me to consider the perspective of evil done TO a person - - or any trauma they were powerless to prevent.
In the flow of this thread, I had in mind the three types of people in a harmful and exploitative cult: 1. the predator 2. the facilitator and 3. the victim...
...a facilitator is a person who makes an action or process easy or easier – such as the process of exploiting or hurting others...I was a facilitator in TWI. I was not a predator nor a victim. By wholeheartedly supporting TWI with my finances, volunteer work, spreading their propaganda, and getting others to join this pseudo-Christian organization, I was making the work of the predators a lot easier by hiding the trek to the slaughterhouse from the eyes of the sheep... Facilitators don't necessarily have to know what they're really facilitating – like even a harmful and exploitative cult ...maybe that makes me somewhat of a victim too - getting suckered in to be a facilitator.
Perhaps the lack of depth in my previous post came from old facilitator habits – thinking there's an easier way to fix this...I hope you can accept my sincere apology.
There's a bigger picture here. There's the predator, with all that makes him a predator. What happened to him (usually a him) in his childhood, to make him behave like that? What love and care did he miss out on? Where did the nurture go wrong?
And then, there's the predator's nature. Regardless of nurture, there's something innate in children, which is why some are talented artists, performers, mathematicians, writers, orators - and manipulators, awkward kids (even as babies), that no amount of nurture can quite extinguish. Some kids seem naturally cruel.
And then there's victims, with all the nurture and nature that happened to them. Some kids seem naturally kind, or pliant, biddable. For some, abuse that happened to pliant kids would pre-condition them to accepting more abuse later.
Sometimes circumstances or events occur that mean a child has to learn coping strategies that become more or less helpful as the child ages.
Perhaps among other good qualities (such as kindness, gentleness, compassion, thoughtfulness, etc) that should be taught to children is SELF-RESPECT and the ability to say NO! and be respected for that.
NOTE: I'm not excusing any predator for responsibility for his actions. Or any other criminal either. We all have the choice of what we do with our mind, our bodies, and our actions.
four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
Sarah was a victim, too, of her parents' nurture of her. As were all the Wierwille kids. An abusive father, domineering and fickle; and a weak mother, who knew what was right and didn't stand up for it.
Some have said we're all victims of our parents. Maybe so. But as adults, we can also recognise that our parents were themselves flawed individuals. Be kind, be compassionate, be long-suffering: but do take off the rose-tinted glasses.
There's quite a lot in the OT about the "sins of the fathers" being passed down through generations. That seems to me to refer to nurture, habits of raising children, poor lessons learned from parents by children. It doesn't mean that children "bear" the sins of their fathers and have to pay for them, it's more in the meaning of the children having learned from their parents' bad habits and not having learned better. It might not even about sinful, criminal or quasi-criminal acts. It might include patterns of speech, curtness or courtesy; habits of action - miserliness or generosity; ways of treating other people; habits of life - slovenliness or orderliness.
Yet there are also promises of forgiveness if children shall turn away from the less socially desirable ways of their parents: a child of violent parents turns away from violence as his way of life; a child of a thief turns away from criminality as his way of life; a rude person realises it's not all about themselves and learns pleasantness towards others. And a child of an abuser turns away from abuse, in whatever form, towards his/her own children and others around him.
Exodus 34:7-Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Deuteronomy 24:16-The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:19-20-Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Numbers 14:18-The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deuteronomy 5:9-Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me
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annio
So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of- class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio ca
Twinky
VPW said it. That settles it. I don't believe it.
annio
Don't really know where else to put this story... Move if needed. Well, taking a deep breath, and sharing here a brief history of the sexual abuse I experienced in what I had thought was FINALLY
T-Bone
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Rocky
That's why twi is barely hanging on by a thread.
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T-Bone
must be a thread of a tangled web
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”
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annio
So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of-
class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio camp. (The Wow's in southern VA had not signed up anyone else but myself and a co-worker who I talked in to accompanying me to the P-fil camp that year.) Thus, I was hood-winked into plenty of error and idolizings, along with some good Bible, sure. But being clobbered over the head and fire-hosed with vpw's doctrinal slants, and being introduced to such nit-pickings as how many crosses or cock crows there were (2 Timothy 2:16- avoid pointless discussions)... This was soon followed with more grooming in CF&S and as I wrote in a personal journal- "SO, there i was hooked in... and two weeks later, i was being further groomed as one of the young women who would be privileged to be raped by your young bucks." Am still in therapy and several support groups for various life traumas, and I WILL heal from this!! (Just decided to join a local church which is sooooo much safer, respectful, doctrinally diverse, truly loving, etc etc etc. Onward! And thank you again GSC-ers for the support, insights, and Truth!!!
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T-Bone
Kudos to you Annio for being courageous to share your experiences and views of those predatory pigs...it raises awareness and concern...voices like yours are a secret weapon that those creeps never anticipated...makes me think of a bunker-buster bomb - - speaking out penetrates the hypocrisy and blasts open their depraved subculture...I wish you good health, happiness and recovery.
Edited by T-BoneTypos
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annio
Appreciate this and You T-Bone!!
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Twinky
Be strong, Annio. Enjoy your new church, check out its safeguarding policy, and be bold to speak out if you see something that's dodgy.
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annio
Thanks much Twinky!!! Great advice!
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annio
Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc.
Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY!
The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path...
THANKS MUCH for listening!!
Best to all here!! 
Onward!! 
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T-Bone
Hi Annio, last night I watched the documentary Tina on HBO Max for the second time. But this time around it was on the heels of reading your latest post. The documentary seems to go along some similar themes of an ongoing sorting/healing process and dealing with past relationships.
Rotten Tomatoes critics consensus says “ Tina recounts the ups and downs of the singer's life with startling candor and insight, providing an inspiring testament to resilience.”
If you or anyone else hasn’t seen Tina yet I thought I’d post a few excerpts from a movie reviewer to pique your interest:
“Tina now lives in Zurich, with her husband, former record company executive Erwin Bach, and she sat down to be interviewed for the documentary (sometimes calling to her husband off-screen for confirmation of some detail). These interviews are interspersed with tape recordings of the interviews she did with Kurt Loder, who co-wrote her best-selling memoir I, Tina. Those conversations with Loder were more free-styling expression, often proclaiming her pain in a raw way: "Kurt, why did I get so far without any love in my life?"
Abandoned by both her parents, Anna Mae Bullock went to go see Ike Turner, heading up his R&B band. Tina describes almost falling into "a trance" when she saw him onstage. Ike heard Tina sing, and knew instantly she had to become part of his act. Ike had been burnt many times by collaborators abandoning him or taking credit for his work, and he used this against the young naive Tina as a way to keep her loyal and dependent. He saw dollar signs when he heard her sing, and while there's not necessarily anything sinister about that, it morphed into something extremely sinister very quickly, with Tina suffering frequent horrific beatings and violent sexual abuse. Tina was a hostage, not a wife...
...The documentary doesn't rely on social-worker talking-heads to explain why women stay in abusive situations (just one example of how the doc could have gone wrong). Instead, it sticks with Turner's experiences, through home movie footage, archival interviews with one of her sons as well as Ike himself…
...The issue of the abuse she suffered at the hands of Ike wasn't really known by the public until she decided to tell the story to People magazine in 1981. Ever since, she has been dogged by questions about it, even as her solo reputation soared into multi-platinum status. This not only frustrated her, but re-traumatized her all over again. She speaks very movingly of this. Her book was written, in part, to tell the story herself in the hopes that it would close the subject. Of course people were even more impertinent and curious. The 1993 movie "What's Love Got to Do With It?", starring Angela Bassett (who was interviewed for the documentary), and Laurence Fishburne as Ike, brought the toxic relationship once again back to the forefront, leading to another press tour where she had to answer disgusting questions like: "What was the worst part of the abuse?"
from: Tina - review by Sheila O'Malley
Edited by T-Boneformatting & typos
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, I saw that movie several years ago. Great movie! I think Tina Turner, is a great singer, and an amazing woman. All that abuse, and she was still able to have a successful life. Wow!
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annio
Thank you SO much T-Bone!!! Will take time to reread your very thoughtful reply soon, and will check into viewing the movie. Blessings to you!
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annio
Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.)
I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"...
But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.-
I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated."
The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen."
Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine.
To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!
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annio
Clarification- when I spoke of the "many sexual abusers", I was referring to ALL of the powerful men that the media has exposed with the #MeToo movement, in the Catholic and Protestant churches, etc.
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annio
Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.
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Rocky
You may, and I'm glad you did... I figure it's good (for Sarah and her family) that she can look to much more about her father than what you so thoughtfully added. Life and lives are complex. She's a grandparent now and lives constantly with memory of her father's life. It may be small (minute) comfort that (she and) they acknowledged his imperfection and his narcissism, even though they can't help but put it to the side most of the time. But your added words seem to come from a place that has also given lots of thought to your situation. Thanks very much for sharing those words. I'd like to believe that Sarah would hear your words and respond with kindness and acknowledgment if she had the opportunity to sit face to face with you.
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T-Bone
Great posts Annio!
It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind…
…we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams.
After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things:
1. sin is always the problem
and
2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them!
Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding
…most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm…
Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship!
The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian…
…guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond…
…I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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WordWolf
"I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."
I'm sure you realize that sounds nothing like someone who is even AWARE of vpw's predations no matter their firsthand knowledge. That sounds like someone who stopped short of saying "If he'd have lived to be 100, things would have been perfect" but sure THINKING it nonetheless. So, some people owe vpw their lives, and some people messed everything up.
She doesn't owe anyone an explanation, and she's not required to face reality, of course. But I thought you'd like to know, on the off-chance you missed that.
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annio
Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...
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annio
Oh MY!! WordWolf, REALLY appreciate this!!! Have shared and thought on these insights!!!
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T-Bone
Annio,
I really appreciate your feedback – and would like to redeem myself after I failed to limit the application of my post...I was addressing interpersonal problems. - problems people have when relating to each other...for me, that's the extent of Jay Adams' points I referenced...I did mention in that post I have broadened my perspective far beyond Adams – and I have a great appreciation for all the legitimate medical treatments, medicine, research and therapies available – something that Adams lacked...I apologize for my lack of clarity and specificity.
I am sorry if I gave you the impression I was speaking to any and all problems that may come upon a person. You are right in mentioning the bigger picture of life and the ultimate priority of healing and deliverance...I totally agree with what you said so maybe I should clarify my perspective. Regarding mental health, medical professionals should be addressing the trauma that befalls a person – by any legitimate means possible – the various therapies, medications, developing technologies, continued research.
...A couple of years ago our daughter participated in a medical study using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a noninvasive form of brain stimulation – the research is still evolving but so far the diagnostic and therapeutic potential is promising in treating a wide variety of disease states in neurology and mental health.
Results for our daughter were amazing. She has down syndrome and had been diagnosed with clinical depression. To complicate matters she had become very withdrawn and didn't communicate much – it was a noticeable decline. The best we could figure out after talking to medical professionals and reading up on it – she may have been dealing with catatonia – but little is known about catatonia associated with down syndrome...But like I said the results of TMS for our daughter were amazing (the treatment was several times a week over a number of weeks). It was like we got our old daughter back. TMS seemed to have alleviated the catatonia thing and the depression is manageable.
She's definitely more outgoing now judging by the feedback we get from the staff at the day hab she attends...and every night we've been watching the series Friends on HBO Max – she will often ask what or why they're doing something – this is a lot of fun and she learns more about our culture...and if you were to visit our home she just might corner you and tell you all about her cat, favorite restaurants or something she wrote on the computer.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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T-Bone
Hi again Annio,
having slept on it – the thought occurred to me that I was more concerned about digging myself out of a hole than listening to what you said...I also realize the shallowness and narrow-mindedness of my previous post...The thought never occurred to me to consider the perspective of evil done TO a person - - or any trauma they were powerless to prevent.
In the flow of this thread, I had in mind the three types of people in a harmful and exploitative cult: 1. the predator 2. the facilitator and 3. the victim...
...a facilitator is a person who makes an action or process easy or easier – such as the process of exploiting or hurting others...I was a facilitator in TWI. I was not a predator nor a victim. By wholeheartedly supporting TWI with my finances, volunteer work, spreading their propaganda, and getting others to join this pseudo-Christian organization, I was making the work of the predators a lot easier by hiding the trek to the slaughterhouse from the eyes of the sheep... Facilitators don't necessarily have to know what they're really facilitating – like even a harmful and exploitative cult ...maybe that makes me somewhat of a victim too - getting suckered in to be a facilitator.
Perhaps the lack of depth in my previous post came from old facilitator habits – thinking there's an easier way to fix this...I hope you can accept my sincere apology.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and formatting
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Twinky
There's a bigger picture here. There's the predator, with all that makes him a predator. What happened to him (usually a him) in his childhood, to make him behave like that? What love and care did he miss out on? Where did the nurture go wrong?
And then, there's the predator's nature. Regardless of nurture, there's something innate in children, which is why some are talented artists, performers, mathematicians, writers, orators - and manipulators, awkward kids (even as babies), that no amount of nurture can quite extinguish. Some kids seem naturally cruel.
And then there's victims, with all the nurture and nature that happened to them. Some kids seem naturally kind, or pliant, biddable. For some, abuse that happened to pliant kids would pre-condition them to accepting more abuse later.
Sometimes circumstances or events occur that mean a child has to learn coping strategies that become more or less helpful as the child ages.
Perhaps among other good qualities (such as kindness, gentleness, compassion, thoughtfulness, etc) that should be taught to children is SELF-RESPECT and the ability to say NO! and be respected for that.
NOTE: I'm not excusing any predator for responsibility for his actions. Or any other criminal either. We all have the choice of what we do with our mind, our bodies, and our actions.
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Twinky
Sarah was a victim, too, of her parents' nurture of her. As were all the Wierwille kids. An abusive father, domineering and fickle; and a weak mother, who knew what was right and didn't stand up for it.
Some have said we're all victims of our parents. Maybe so. But as adults, we can also recognise that our parents were themselves flawed individuals. Be kind, be compassionate, be long-suffering: but do take off the rose-tinted glasses.
There's quite a lot in the OT about the "sins of the fathers" being passed down through generations. That seems to me to refer to nurture, habits of raising children, poor lessons learned from parents by children. It doesn't mean that children "bear" the sins of their fathers and have to pay for them, it's more in the meaning of the children having learned from their parents' bad habits and not having learned better. It might not even about sinful, criminal or quasi-criminal acts. It might include patterns of speech, curtness or courtesy; habits of action - miserliness or generosity; ways of treating other people; habits of life - slovenliness or orderliness.
Yet there are also promises of forgiveness if children shall turn away from the less socially desirable ways of their parents: a child of violent parents turns away from violence as his way of life; a child of a thief turns away from criminality as his way of life; a rude person realises it's not all about themselves and learns pleasantness towards others. And a child of an abuser turns away from abuse, in whatever form, towards his/her own children and others around him.
Exodus 34:7 - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:19-20 - Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Numbers 14:18 - The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deuteronomy 5:9 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me
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