No, but Martin Buber sounds pretty sensible. I've heard of him before but I haven't read his books.
Basically, your previous comment summed up the thesis of Buber's book. I and thou as opposed to I and it.
"I and it" is how he described a person's relationship with others when the person (Wierwille) only considered the other person as a thing to be used. Rather than a person to be respected, honored, loved.
That's entirely possible. However, he shows so many signs of psychopathic/sociopathic behaviour that I tend to think that his response was because we weren't people to him, we were RESOURCES. So, when we thought for ourselves and dared to disagree with him, he took that personally because he was entitled to do all our thinking for us.
On 11/3/2020 at 1:24 AM, Rocky said:
WW, you're probably familiar with Martin Buber's book, I and Thou. At least, it sounds from your comment above, that you're familiar with it. I couldn't agree more.
19 hours ago, Rocky said:
Basically, your previous comment summed up the thesis of Buber's book. I and thou as opposed to I and it.
"I and it" is how he described a person's relationship with others when the person (Wierwille) only considered the other person as a thing to be used. Rather than a person to be respected, honored, loved.
We were resources indeed! I don’t believe wierwille was capable of healthy interpersonal relationships – where people have common interests and there’s transparency, honesty, tolerance, respect, trust, etc.. He was more like a crafty salesman intent on getting the lion’s share out of any "business deal".
In an article by Darlene Lancer a licensed marriage and family therapist, she explains the cold and almost business-like arrangements in the life of a narcissist:
"narcissists can be selfish, hurtful, and cold when it doesn’t serve them to be charming or cooperative. To them relationships are transactional. Rather than respond to feelings, they’re interested in getting their needs met―sometimes, even if it means exploiting others, cheating, lying, or breaking the law. Although they may feel excitement and passion in the early stages of a relationship, this is not love, but lust. They’re known for their game-playing. Sacrificing for a loved one isn’t in their playbook. Their lack of empathy also inures them to the pain that they cause others, while their cognitive, emotional intelligence gives them an edge in manipulating and exploiting others to get their needs met."
"Transactional relationships are economic and functional. They’re based on exchange of money, goods, or services. They serve a very clear point. And when that point no longer makes sense or has been fulfilled, the relationship ends."
From The Ladders career advice website (you might enjoy reading the entire article as it presents and contrasts healthier interpersonal relationships for all those involved - called transformational relationships)
In my humble opinion, transactional relationships is a key concept to understanding how wierwille and certain upper leadership may have looked at people... if you seriously challenged or questioned wierwille, leadership, the ministry or didn't want to ignore some scandal or serious issue then basically your relationship with wierwille, leadership, the ministry was over - – as Rocky comments based on Buber’s book “I and Thou” expressed, you are no longer useful to the ministry.
I think part of corps training instilled lopsided transactional relationship “principles” in folks - - here’s where we learned what to value...what to prioritize...you don’t look at the individual needs of a person but rather at how they should conform to the ministry - and even beyond that...I remember - I think it was Townsend who co-opted JFK's quote - "ask not what the ministry can do for you - ask what you can do for the ministry"...we learned to look at people through awhat-can-I-get-out-of-you-lens...we looked at numbers - how much is your branch abundantly sharing? How many PFAL classes have you run? How many are going WOW and corps from your area? These are the things that determine whether or not you’re a good sales marketing manager - whether or not you are useful to The Way International.
The Bible details Jesus Christ's dedicated service to others and how he encouraged his followers to do the same. Isn't it odd how wierwille et al upended that - followers are to serve The Way International.
Edited by T-Bone formatting, typos and transformational editing
On 11/3/2020 at 4:13 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
LU, I went WOW in 1978, and vaguely remember that meeting. What did he expect when he sent out families, of two young men, and two young women?
Good question. I don't think we had any "playing around" in Philly, but we only had one family like that out of seven, plus one family of two married couples. My sexual assault ("loosening up") was to wait til the fall after that year when I was at HQ.
I do agree that marginalizing people’s humanity is something that is very evident in cult leaders thinking. VP and the current crowd have that in common.
To them the most important thing is the goal. Whatever it is that they have made up and stated. It changes. The people are secondary.
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WordWolf
As for motives, since we have so much information on vpw's life and comments, we can trace a relatively clear path, at least in his own words. We know that vpw told the early corps that he consid
WordWolf
That's entirely possible. However, he shows so many signs of psychopathic/sociopathic behaviour that I tend to think that his response was because we weren't people to him, we were RESOURCES. So, wh
Twinky
I understood your reply, Lifted Up. People have different styles of responding to things they quote. And sometimes the function doesn't work as well as one might expect. It would be fair to say
annio
Soon enough in the organic processing of healing, naming, finding true safety and Godliness.
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Rocky
Basically, your previous comment summed up the thesis of Buber's book. I and thou as opposed to I and it.
"I and it" is how he described a person's relationship with others when the person (Wierwille) only considered the other person as a thing to be used. Rather than a person to be respected, honored, loved.
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T-Bone
We were resources indeed! I don’t believe wierwille was capable of healthy interpersonal relationships – where people have common interests and there’s transparency, honesty, tolerance, respect, trust, etc.. He was more like a crafty salesman intent on getting the lion’s share out of any "business deal".
In an article by Darlene Lancer a licensed marriage and family therapist, she explains the cold and almost business-like arrangements in the life of a narcissist:
"narcissists can be selfish, hurtful, and cold when it doesn’t serve them to be charming or cooperative. To them relationships are transactional. Rather than respond to feelings, they’re interested in getting their needs met―sometimes, even if it means exploiting others, cheating, lying, or breaking the law. Although they may feel excitement and passion in the early stages of a relationship, this is not love, but lust. They’re known for their game-playing. Sacrificing for a loved one isn’t in their playbook. Their lack of empathy also inures them to the pain that they cause others, while their cognitive, emotional intelligence gives them an edge in manipulating and exploiting others to get their needs met."
From Psychology Today - How to Think Like a Narcissist and Why They Hurt People
== == == ==
and from another article:
"Transactional relationships are economic and functional. They’re based on exchange of money, goods, or services. They serve a very clear point. And when that point no longer makes sense or has been fulfilled, the relationship ends."
From The Ladders career advice website (you might enjoy reading the entire article as it presents and contrasts healthier interpersonal relationships for all those involved - called transformational relationships)
In my humble opinion, transactional relationships is a key concept to understanding how wierwille and certain upper leadership may have looked at people... if you seriously challenged or questioned wierwille, leadership, the ministry or didn't want to ignore some scandal or serious issue then basically your relationship with wierwille, leadership, the ministry was over - – as Rocky comments based on Buber’s book “I and Thou” expressed, you are no longer useful to the ministry.
I think part of corps training instilled lopsided transactional relationship “principles” in folks - - here’s where we learned what to value...what to prioritize...you don’t look at the individual needs of a person but rather at how they should conform to the ministry - and even beyond that...I remember - I think it was Townsend who co-opted JFK's quote - "ask not what the ministry can do for you - ask what you can do for the ministry"...we learned to look at people through a what-can-I-get-out-of-you-lens...we looked at numbers - how much is your branch abundantly sharing? How many PFAL classes have you run? How many are going WOW and corps from your area? These are the things that determine whether or not you’re a good sales marketing manager - whether or not you are useful to The Way International.
The Bible details Jesus Christ's dedicated service to others and how he encouraged his followers to do the same. Isn't it odd how wierwille et al upended that - followers are to serve The Way International.
Edited by T-Boneformatting, typos and transformational editing
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Lifted Up
Good question. I don't think we had any "playing around" in Philly, but we only had one family like that out of seven, plus one family of two married couples. My sexual assault ("loosening up") was to wait til the fall after that year when I was at HQ.
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chockfull
I do agree that marginalizing people’s humanity is something that is very evident in cult leaders thinking. VP and the current crowd have that in common.
To them the most important thing is the goal. Whatever it is that they have made up and stated. It changes. The people are secondary.
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