This is an interesting topic and certainly worthy of discussion. I think, however, it may be better suited for the doctrinal forum. I say this only because Way doctrines are heavily invested in the idea that this and many other characteristics, such as alcoholism, cancer, mental illness and a whole slew of others, are the result of devil spirit possession. So, I think you can predict how this topic may or may not unfold. I'll go out on a limb here and openly state that, not only do I not believe these items are a product of devil possession, I simply no longer believe in the existence of devil spirits. Oops! Did I just accidentally steer us toward the doctrinal forum? My bad.
This is an interesting topic and certainly worthy of discussion. I think, however, it may be better suited for the doctrinal forum. I say this only because Way doctrines are heavily invested in the idea that this and many other characteristics, such as alcoholism, cancer, mental illness and a whole slew of others, are the result of devil spirit possession. So, I think you can predict how this topic may or may not unfold. I'll go out on a limb here and openly state that, not only do I not believe these items are a product of devil possession, I simply no longer believe in the existence of devil spirits. Oops! Did I just accidentally steer us toward the doctrinal forum? My bad.
If there's a moderator who can move it, then I have no objection. In retrospect doctrine did not even blip on my mental radar because being agnostic/borderline atheist, science is the basis for my thinking so I don't take doctrine into consideration unless I am comparing doctrinal views within a particular religion; i.e., Satmar Judaism vs Chabad Judaism, etc. Like you though, I don't believe that devil spirits are the cause of the aforementioned maladies and don't believe in their existence either, but believe them to be a fabrication that are a convenient machination used for the purpose of manipulating and controlling people through fear. Hey! We can be a tag team!
One of my ANCC Nursing certifications is in Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. This discipline is involved with the study of the active “ingredients”, mechanism of action, common side effects, and therapeutic results expectations available from the proposed medical therapies and interventions. I have have hundreds of clinical hours in the treatment, counseling, and studying of patients whom TWIt would have classified and consigned to the “trash heap” of devil spirit possession. It was a wonderful journey of learning and understanding of not only the mental illnesses human beings have to deal with, but also the utter ridiculousness of Advanced Class Aryan propaganda, antiquated “Christian” superstitions, and the “mechanics” of devil spirit possession and it’s accompanying mandatory dissing of ALL forms of psychiatry and psychology as having been “born in a seance”. A true disservice to those suffering treatable and curable psychiatric disorders.
As a fellow believer in science and the scientific method, along with being a fan of and “dabbler” in quantum physics, I realize that things like “demons”, “possession”, telekinesis, telepathy, etc, are indeed possible theoretically. That allows for the thorough scientific investigation of what TWIt referred to as all things “spiritual” with an open and curious mind based on the objectitivity of the scientific method. An example of this is the investigation into Einstein’s hypotheses of “spooky motion at a distance” and “time travel”.
Point being.....the possibility of “devil spirit possession” exists. However the doctrines and “procedures” of dictor paul re: “the holy spirit field” are fabricated, fictitious, and fraudulent imo. They are no different in effect and “results” than what is depicted in “The Exorcist”, or “The Exorcism Of Emily Rose” and other horror film cult favorites. They are also no more proveable, efficacious, or “real” than what those films display, imo. Fundamentalist Christian teachings, theories, and understandings of “devils and demons” is NOT objective nor does it rely upon scientific method to validate its claims or doctrines. It is basically a collection of hand-me-down, ancient superstitions and hearsay regarding heretofore inexplicable human behaviors or experiences, imo. Can such things as described in the AC happen? The possibility exists, but scientific study and investigation has yet to yield objective proof. So, as a healthcare professional, I choose to go with the proveable, predictable, and repeatable therapies which have been discovered and implemented in the clinical arena. At the same time, I do not discount the possibility of miracles, healings, and other inexplicable “spiritual” phenomena.
I believe the teachings and practices of modern fundamentalist or charismatic “Christians” in the “devil spirit realm” are disinformed, inappropriate, misguided, dangerous, and damaging to those they are applied to. They are close-minded and suspicious, as well as ineffective and anecdotal evidentially. TWIt doctrines and practices in this “holy spirit field” are subjective at best, and totally based in the personal perversions and peccadilloes of vp wierwille, BG Leonard, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Earl Stanley Jones, Rosalind Rinker, K.C. Pillai, Oral Roberts, E. Kenyon, and others whom wierwille used to “credit” with inspiring or mentoring him. They are based completely on personal experience and “private interpretation”, NOT Biblical “research, teaching, and fellowship”. TWIt adherents are dangerously self-deluded in their fairy tale understanding of devil spirits and possession. They are misguided and become religious bigots just like Falwell Jr., Franklin Graham, Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Jim Bakker, all the Swaggarts, the Bo and Stanley Reahards, the Sue Pierces, the Gerald Wrenns, the Charlie Quillens, the Mark Frontczaks and Victor Barnards, The SOWERS, Greg Backes, Maurice Goulet, John Lynn and his latest “ministry”, TLTF, the Terry and Melanie Wilsons in Black Forrest, CO, Momentus and all the other Dan Tocchini cults, STFI, Vinny Finnegan’s Living Hope Ministries International, “Dr.” Dale Sides and his bs “Liberating ministries for Christ international”, Brian Bliss and his phony “Christian Leadership and Service Academy”, Geer’s “Word Promotions Ltd.” franchises, Earl and Nancy Burton, Kris and Katie Kile and their Momentus offshoot, Howard Walker and his WC FB Page, Steve Sann and his John Richeson Ning Way Corps site, Jerry Carr, Bob Hanna, Bob and Kathy Mathieson, Paul Norcross, Larry Panarello, Revival and Restoration with Boob and Doody Moneyhands, Michael and Cindy Fort, Ed and Jackie Horney, et al, Michael Rood and his Rood Awakening Jewish roots cult, and all the rest of the domnionist, alt-right neo-Nazi cults, offshoots, and splinters of that horror show in new Knoxville, Ohio.
As a fellow believer in science and the scientific method, along with being a fan of and “dabbler” in quantum physics, I realize that things like “demons”, “possession”, telekinesis, telepathy, etc, are indeed possible theoretically. That allows for the thorough scientific investigation of what TWIt referred to as all things “spiritual” with an open and curious mind based on the objectitivity of the scientific method. An example of this is the investigation into Einstein’s hypotheses of “spooky motion at a distance” and “time travel”.
I get it- there are actions results that are possible, but the causes are not attributable to what some groups/doctrines might believe. Just like medicine and science has evolved due to experimentation to prove or disprove. The first time I went through the Haunted Mansion ride at Walt Disney World I was an Advanced Class Grad and freaked out just a little, because I knew that I wasn't seeing holograms, and the things floating in the air were not ghosts, but they sure fit the description of ectoplasm. LOL, I did not know about the illusion known as Pepper's Ghost done with glass, mirrors, and mannequins.
So, nursing, huh? Did you go to school after you left in 1986? I have a tremendous respect for nurses, and for all disciplines in the behavioral sciences, especially pharmacology. I've seen a life turned around completely by 60 mg of Prozac a day, I am not kidding you.
I entered Nursing School in 1990, and began working as a GN in 1992. I went on to get certified in Wound care/Ostomy (WONC), Nephrology (CNN) and Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. I was also an OR RN. Best educational and career decision I ever made!
I always thought that homosexuality is a perversion and still do. I remember in high school a homo challenged me on it and said I was perverted for believing that. What did I say to him? Nothing... nothing I say would change his mind. Now, today I don't call them homos anymore I call them sodomites. "God made male and female". This is still the truth; I believe the people and society are in deep trouble, straying from this truth and is in peril, perhaps like Sodom and Gomorrah once was. I don't wish ill on anybody but I think we're in deep doo doo. Now we have Drag Queen Story Hours in libraries. ugh.
I always thought that homosexuality is a perversion and still do. I remember in high school a homo challenged me on it and said I was perverted for believing that. What did I say to him? Nothing... nothing I say would change his mind. Now, today I don't call them homos anymore I call them sodomites. "God made male and female". This is still the truth; I believe the people and society are in deep trouble, straying from this truth and is in peril, perhaps like Sodom and Gomorrah once was. I don't wish ill on anybody but I think we're in deep doo doo. Now we have Drag Queen Story Hours in libraries. ugh.
Hey Oldies,
By any chance, were you Way Corps, on Assignment in New Jersey? Lemme know!
The journey to realiization of self outside Christian Fundamentalism and Twit has been long and arduous for me. This site has, again, proven invaluable.
DWBH, unbeknownst to him, has helped me tremendously on the finding of the Authentic Self and by mentioning other concepts to which I was CLUELESS. I truly thought I left the Twit outlook on life years after 1986, but the last ten years showed me I had not. I essentially cocooned me, myself, and I (ALL of US) for the last 1 1/2 years to investigate where my behaviors and actions, beliefs, and so forth, originated because my life was still a true mess. Worse than ten years ago. Oh, and my sisters deserve credit for saving my life: they told me that they thought I had some kind of PTSD or something (in addition to one vice I've struggled with since '86), and that IT , that Thing, was from Twit! That was 3 years ago my sisters told me.
Shocking what I have seen. I have felt like I was one of the engineers in Chernobyl (HBO) who, so well "trained" in the Soviet- Communist doctrine, that they could not believe the reactor blew up. But, there it was: blown up. Denial. Why could they not wrap their heads around it? Well, all the information in the studies proved it couldn't explode, plus, it was Soviet made, and therefore the BEST, and THIS reactor type CANNOT blow up. Check it out. Don't want to spoil it. The cognitive dissonance term I've seen around here was in full view on the actors faces. What a fine job those actors did.
And, my goodness, it's a really bright world out there. WOW. Might what I am experiencing here of late perhaps be compared to Helen Keller's first understanding "water?" An awakening?
One step was going back to my science. That's in another thread. Genesis 1 "became" (hah) allegorical to me and not literal. If Fundamentalist folks don't like that, well, I'll just say Revelation is mostly allegorical and symbolic, yet you chose to make it literal, right? So, why, based on your approach, can't I take your literal and make it allegorical and symbolic?
I investigated myself because I knew Twit had affected me, but how deeply? How much. What could I not see? What did I leave unfinished? Sisters said trauma??? So, off I went. Why was I erratic? Where was my happy personal life?
The doctrine and abuse from Twit and corpse did traumatize me, and the fact that it was force fed and with a good helping of abuse there really f'd me up. As I see it, the introjected regulations, beliefs or actions that do not agree with my Authentic self and that I "integrated" these into my "self" as good. They were not good at all, caused severe conflicts. I was not aware how PERVASIVE the "trauma" went inside me until lately during my sabbatical. And, it's mostly Twit/corpse junk, and I know when the first "shudder" went through me, and who it was- a 3rd corpse..close to VPW. Summer 1974, West Virginia, 2 months in, at the limb house for a meeting w/ fellow servants, all local believers- a great bunch. I was so happy to be there. So happy. All open and vulnerable. Limb Coor walks in to the front of room to the podium, but we remained seated, then we got a 10 minute reproof session to STAND next time he entered the room out of RESPECT for the word of god that is inside of him. Severe reproof. Blindsided. Mortal Sin stuff. We were all scared (fake reverent and humble). Then, a few weeks later, I HAD to see him about something (?), and when I sat down in his office I was so scared that I was literally shaking in my chair. He saw me shaking. Shaking like a wet dog in the freezing rain. The first trauma to self had occurred, IMO. More to follow as I get led in.
Because of this path, I was able to formulate a much better view of all this for me. This question of homosexuality is not too hard for me to handle now.
I now say that each person has the right to be who they are, no matter what that is. They have the right to be their fully beautiful (hopefully?) selves....their Authentic Selves. Their struggle to find their Identity and acceptance and place in this world is, undoubtedly, much easier for a heterosexual person like myself, and that was confusing enough time for me. I was in NYC this past April with my family to see "Hamilton." Yes, I loved it, and because my sister gifted me the ticket I don't get any Christmas presents from her for the next 10 years! OK!? TEN YEARS!
But, our waiter at lunch before the play, a slender 30'ish year old man of Oriental extraction, had a remarkably beautiful, soft, and feminine voice. Later, my sister, more advanced than me having never been in Twit, mentioned that he might be transitioning. I was happy for that person if that's what it is. Finding themselves. And, being themselves.
I am heterosexual, and I do not understand the attraction at all, not one whit. Therefore, I find that world unappealing, and, to me, repulsive. But, in all honesty, if I think for a moment of sex between couples I know, well, that really super grosses me out, too! Like, gnarly, dude. Go away. So, I ask you, do you really care what goes on in someones' bedroom?
I don't like a local Market with just potatoes (Lo Shonta or Russet) , but one full of the Variety of foods and colors of all shapes, sizes and kinds, and different flowers and aromas, and rocks.
I was led to believe in the Way and Way Corps that gays and lesbians did not have the capacity for real care and compassion. I was very wrong. I see lots of it, and benefit from some of it.
Yeah, I'm going there. WTF, I had to listen to how evil it was for twenty years, and then pretty much continued to believe it was unnatural for over another decade plus.
I listened for less time then you but continued to believe it for longer, i.e. around three decades. My waking up on this subject, as on a few other things, started with my best survivor friend's account of a very caring friendship she had had in the past. This friend eventually died of AIDS. But I quickly learned in real time that her testimony, and her friend's caring, was real., mainly thrugh other friends I met through her. And, even before my mnd was really changed, the seeds were planted, unintentionally, by the hate spewed in LCM's rants.
O.K, I'm going to jump off the crazy end of the pool here. Several years ago, I worked with a lady who is a lesbian and has been in a committed relationship for 30+ years. We got to know each other pretty well but I always felt like I had to be careful with what I said to her because one of those nasty, old debuhl spurts was always listening to what I said. It embarrasses me now to think about how silly the whole thing was. Fortunately, we're still friends, at least in a face book kind of sense and exchange FB posts frequently..
Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefitting from it- I have been a tangible recipient.
I am going to give you the skeletal backstory of a WOW year romance, 1978-1979. It was with someone who was bisexual but sexually inexperienced and ambiguous. Becoming involved with the ministry committed him to heterosexuality. He asked me to marry him and I accepted. He went WOW, I went back home at the end of my WOW year. On Christmas Eve, he broke it off by phone. Naturally I was crushed. At the following Rock of Ages we were cordial, I got the truth out of him one night after three beers, and that was the end of it. We maintained semi contact at subsequent Rock of Ages but not in between. The last time I saw him was at the message board in 1983. 6 years later I was married, cooking dinner, I get a phone call out of the blue. It was him. He had made phone calls using directory assistance to family in New Jersey and found me. I think he was rather shocked to learn that I was married. I was already in counseling because after all I had married a sociopath but of course that wasn't anything that was acknowledged by counseling clergy especially not when he was in an income bracket that provided handsome abundant sharing. There was a Thanksgiving card in the mail, and then a Christmas card. The next time I heard from him was a phone call on Christmas Day. He was surprised I had never received a letter he sent. I realized then the sociopath intercepted it from the apartment mailbox cluster. That was 1989. After that all contact was lost. Fast forward to 2015. After sporadic attempts over the years, once I became computer literate, I was finally successful in re-establishing contact with him. He was in a domestic partnership of 22 years with a man. After multiple unfulfilling relationships with other women after me, he turned his attentions to guys. Emotionally he still relates to women, but physically his attraction towards men had grown. I immediately told him I did not judge him on his sexuality. It did not take us long to pick up our friendship where it had left off, and given the years to grow up and mature and have the perspective and understanding of trial and experience, it was actually much better and easier. I unburdened my conscience by apologizing for my many faux pas and rash remarks made in youth. Gratefully he had a much kinder memory of me and my behavior then I had of my behavior at the time. Or perhaps over the years he chose to remember the good things because there were a lot of good times between us, and a lot of times yes, I did try to be the good girlfriend, especially when he went out on the WOW field with care packages, etc. So pretty soon things were kind of like they used to be, with email replacing letters, and me sending the occasional box with something home-baked or something unobtainable where he lives, like fantastic everything bagels. Then there is Christmas and his birthday.
So here are some photos-
Fast forward to my birthday in 2016- FedEx shows up- large Australian opal surrounded by two rows of diamonds set in 14k gold ring comes from him for my birthday. He remembered that way back in 1979, when we were two penniless 19 year olds, that my dream engagement ring was an opal set with diamonds.
That was not the only gift. The other gift is a 22" strand of real multicolor south seas pearls, each 20mm in diameter, with a 18k gold clasp with an inlaid diamond.
For Christmas 2016, my birthstone Peridot and diamond earrings, 14k, and Peridot and I forget the other stone set in 14k ring.
Birthday 2017 I forgot the stone (I have the tags saved) six carat pink oval stone crowned with diamonds in a setting that makes it look like a pineapple and in homeage to my residence in Arizona a vintage pin of a roadrunner with Ruby and diamond. One piece has I8k one has 14k, I forget.
I would say I have definitely benefitted from my friendship with a gay man in my life- my ex husband was never so generous to me, quite the opposite. And the benefit has not just been material things. He has been a wonderful thoughtful friend, as is his partner.
Also, when my friend's friend contracted AIDS, my friend demonstrated a much greater lesson on avoiding fear than the Way taught, but never demonstrated. They stayed close friends until his passing. To this day she is a lesson to me in avoiding fear and other things.
Kathy does that mean you also felt the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion?
No, when I said "Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefiting from it- I have been a tangible recipient" I meant I had received tangible benefits from a non-straight person/persons. The benefits are the beautiful jewelry gifted to me by my former fiance' from my WOW year. That was why I gave you the backstory to the tangible benefits. I did not state in my narrative that I felt that the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion.
As for him breaking it off with me by phone on Christmas eve from the WOW field, it was not something done out of a lack of compassion on his part. I learned later it was motivated by near-perpetual pressure placed on him by his interim Way Corps WOW family coordinator and his apprentice Way Corps WOW sister. Much like the Mormons put a great deal of pressure on youth to go on the Mission program before college, The Way loved to push people onto the WOW field and then get them to sign up for the Way Corps. Talking him out of marriage better suited the needs of the ministry.
Hi Kathy, thanks for the research paper doc. It's an interesting read and well written, will have to digest it.
I do think this is a topic that fits into "Open" better than Doctrinal.
I've always felt that it's a topic that isn't served well if restricted to religious inquiry although that's part of the discussion, certainly GS. Religious opinion pretty much mangles the topic into a gnarly mass of denial - anything that doesn't seem to fit into the equation is just ignored, denied or considered an attack on the religious position. Many of the world's social issues end up like a pile of dirty laundry with one clean towel on top - they just focus on the clean towel and ignore the dirty ones and pretend there's a pile of clean towels and the dirty ones will be handled in the sweet-by-and-by.
Which goes to the basics of life and determining what life is and how best to proceed through it and into the future. One thing striking about Jesus and what He is recorded to have taught is that He addressed two extreme views of life - eternity, God, judgment, righteousness on the one hand and abundant life, a heavenly Father, forgiveness and grace on the other.....one is everything and everyone, the other is personal and individual. "The Word became flesh" indeed - a God who creates universes cares about His creation's individual parts.
Jesus taught around and to the basic idea of a male/female partnership, "marriage", and that relationship is used in the New Testament to illustrate the unity of the much larger body of Christ and it's "members in particular"....again, the larger reality being understood in an individual perspective.
He also taught that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.".....so reality changes in God's plan as Jesus taught it. Or does it? Hard to say, but we have some pointers.
I was born heterosexual, I didn't choose it. I don't choose to stay heterosexual in preferences and I don't think I could, or want to, choose to change that. It's just the way I was born and it appears to the natural way the majority of humans are born - some are born male and they're sexual attraction is towards females, serving procreation. "Be fruitful and multiply". But if I didn't choose, why do I have to say someone else did....?
Maybe they did, maybe they do, maybe the biology and physical components produce the conditions that allow for it.
That personal awareness makes me think that someone could be born homosexual and then have a natural preference for their own sex. That doesn't serve procreation and if I assumed that all sexual preference was primarily designed to serve procreation it would be a major failure. I don't know that though. Procreation is clearly the intention of our species, it's our future so to speak but breaking it down, that doesn't mean that every single human ever born must and should have more children, be a father or mother. If I say that's the ideal state, is it the only permissible state? What's the purpose of God's creation particularly when there may not be any genders of any kind "in the resurrection", as Jesus taught?
These are just thoughts, questions. Jesus taught to forgive, to help, to pray and to have faith towards God, as both their Creator and their Father. Can everyone do that? Can anyone accept His act of grace and be "born again" - and if so what is the effect on their human sexuality?
When I see people acting out "gay" lifestyles in seemingly outrageous and shocking ways, that's behavior. What does it represent? Every gay person doesn't wear pink tights and dance around the streets in chains. I have no desire to see or participate. But it's behavior, not sexuality - behavior that one chooses to reflect or manifest their sexuality in a way they....choose.
Anyhoo....PEACE!!!
Edited by socks Need more smilies. I like smilies. They say everything that needs to be said without saying anything at all. A great tool for a written media.
I did not state in my narrative that I felt that the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion.
Oh Kathy, if you had heard LCM's rants on Corps Night...! It'd be a three-hour session, with the majority being a scream-fest from His Horribleness around the topic of homosexuals, their disgusting deviant practices, their deceptions and manipulations, their entering "caring professions" simply to pull the wool over our eyes that they might be nice people, but actually, they're vile, disgusting, schemers, etc, etc, etc. The first time, I thought, wow, there must be a problem, I'd never have thought that. Second time: there really is a problem. Third time: This is going a bit far. Fourth and subsequent CNs: He's kinda upset about this, but off the rails. And then the purges started, months of males allegedly caught in the act, or who'd confessed, or left of their own volition because they were that way oriented.
Oh yes. He definitely went on (and on, and on) about homosexuals using "caring professions" as cover, not out of any true sense of care.
And all this at a time when his wife had left him to go and live with Rosalie Rivenbark, in a sexual relationship. So you know these "teachings" were his rage, frustration, humiliation, whatever, at his wife's (and Rosalie's) behaviour. All this at a time, too, when he'd been bonking many other women than Donna - other men's wives, single women, he didn't care.
I can't speak for what VPW may have taught. I do know, most certainly, what LCM taught. And did.
As to homosexuals: there are several "gay friendly" churches in this city, including the principal church of the city. In my volunteer work as a Street Pastor, I have visited (= called by) a well-known gay pub and struck up many conversations with young males. You would not believe the treatment that has been meted out to them by different churches: beatings, cold baths, exorcisms, endless Bible studies, and finally banning. Some of these men know a lot of Bible verses; they've tried hard not to be homosexual but - but they just fancy men. Some even say, "I know it's wrong." This sort of treatment of these men by their churches is shameful and so lacking in compassion that I'm badly embarrassed. My response now is: "I'm glad you've found someone to love." And I've told some, "Did you know God loves you? Really loves you?" For some, it's clear that this is one message they've never heard from their churches.
Oh, let me clarify, please note that in the quote I say I did not state in my narrative that I felt that the Way taught etc................... because Lifted Up specifically asked me if that's what was the meaning of a statement I had made, and it wasn't. I wanted to answer Lifted up's question as quickly as possible and stay on point.
Now, was that how I felt or believed the Way's position on homosexuals was, that they were bereft of compassion and the absolute basest of the base? Absolutely! LCM Characterized them as the worst of sinners, the most debauched and perverse, you name the worst possible adjective, that is a homosexual.
I attended the week long Advanced Class Special in 1992 at HQ, and the two weeks long re-taping of the new Advanced Class at HQ in 1993 where both times Discerning of Spirits was the final manifestation covered. I think it was in 1992 when LCM closed out the week and the segment on the manifestation by quoting a section of scripture about what the end result of homosexuality would be, probably from Romans, if memory serves it's a verse about them receiving the recompense of their error, and him saying that AIDS was them being "paid in full" and then swiftly seguing into prayer to close the session/class.
In 1993 my husband and I had moved to New Knoxville. Because we were too fat to comfortably sit in the regular auditorium seats, we sat in folding chairs next to Aunt Lydia, who was next to Annalee and Phil Skapura, facing the stage we were in the back row, to the left of the back row for the Trustee wives. Rosalie and Donna were always hovering back there behind us, and it was always curious to me what a Rosalie clone Donna had become, kind of like a Rosalie Stepford sister. Well, as we all know now, a Rosalie Stepford wife. Even back then I figured something was going on, Donna was always a little butch, and Rosalie was always so fake. A friend of mine on staff during the 80s made a statement prior to VPW's death that everyone used to joke and called Rosalie "the fourth trustee." Well, if only they could see into the future..... Her ambitions were naked even then. She was always such a fake; my friend worked in printing and was aligned with publications, and another friend whose mother took the class in 1957 found her saccharine personality regurgitating. She called Rosalie "Miss Alabama Dixie Belle" and imitated her voice, as Rosalie was her daughter's boss for many, many years. When I first moved to New Knoxville, I volunteered to work in Floral with Linda Evans. When Rosalie was displeased with the podium arrangements for a SNS, Linda would receive an Inter-office mail on Monday from Rosalie with the flowers in the envelope. I was mortified. What a passive-aggressive Biatch. That was my introduction to living in New Knoxville. That, and volunteering to work on the ROA 1993 crew, and being treated like a plantation slave. It was horrible. LCM screaming during lunch in the tent. The coup d' grace? There was a tent of ornamental potted and hanging plants alongside Wierwille road for distribution. A lot of them had to go to the House of His Healing Presence. The most direct route was across the road, and through a path by the little Waytels and past the motor coach. But no, we could not go that way. LCM might be in there studying. As if there were not dozens of places on grounds where he could study and prepare teachings. Volunteers had to be physically stressed. Was a golf cart offered to ferry the plants to the HOHHP? No. Like the laborers in "The Bridge On The River Kwai" during one of the hottest Augusts in Ohio, we had to take the crosswalk, and the long road into the Way Woods, the road that goes to the Chalet, and go that way to the HOHHP on foot to deliver plants there and elsewhere. Back and forth on foot, multiple trips in the heat. Years later, when the news broke about the sex scandals, I was in South Africa, and immediately I thought that the reason we could not take the short path was because we might catch someone coming or going from a tryst in the motor coach. How infuriating. Okay, back from my tangent.
I also was in attendance at ROA 1994 when the special meeting was called for the criteria of Advanced Class Grads and other minimum level people and he went into a minimum hour diatribe about homosexuality and it being a major problem that had surfaced. After that, we moved to St. Mary's but soon we started noticing on Sunday nights that people were missing, and then the gossip would get around. My husband had known Irwin, Mr. Steam, from Florida. He had moved him and his younger wife and bunch of kids to Sidney, opened a shoe repair shop. Irwin was an individual, didn't dress up for the SNS. He was labeled as a homo, his daughter was blamed for running a sex ring during the Rock according to Mal and Jan George. He went to the local paper in Sidney and they did a story. Bill Greene told the paper that The Way does not do anything along the lines of excommunications. My then husband and I looked at each other and said "That's a lie." We knew damn well they did, as in mark and avoid. We were attending the SNS up until early April of 1995 and heard plenty of the rants. Some of the Corps night comments would get leaked to me from friends, as I was considered a solid believer. As I have alluded to in other posts, a ruse was employed to isolate us because we were on the cusp of finding out about a major sex scandal.
My only other comment is that there were some isolated incidents, comments, that made my ears perk concerning a few individuals, wondering if they were lesbians, and yes, a few of them did finally out themselves, which doesn't bother me. What is tragic is the ones who are still closeted and perpetuating the same doctrine that LCM spewed. How does anybody live with that much self loathing- or do I answer my own question by saying well, look at Rosalie, there's your answer?
Oh Kathy, we're contemporaries; you understand the LCM rants. In rez, it was even worse, not just Corps Night, but lunchtime "sharings" to several hundred captives, that would go on for a couple of hours too, and once in a while at breakfast (very small audience), about how he'd "run off" some more homos. I was on Bev Crew for the advanced class you mention. God, what a mad time the whole of being in rez was!
Twinkster - I know the official version as reported years ago was that Craig suddenly became aware of "homo infiltration" into the Way Corps. It's always sounded like Craig's war on homo's was sparked by something, one or more events, and that it was very likely him finding out about or being told that Donna and Rosalie (or whoever) were having sexual relations. Is that your understanding? I can picture his viciousness being driven by his own misguided sense of betrayal, misguided because his own need to pursue sex outside his marriage clearly trumped the need of anyone else to pursue the same, in or out of marriage, homosexual or otherwise.
I have to wonder why he didn't call them out if that was the case. If it was because Donna was his wife and they had children and he wanted to shield them I understand that but as it progressed he took it out on many others, making it particularly fraudulent to hide their activity. A somewhat less than best but acceptable route might have been to simply step down and allow these issues to be worked out, while continuing to act as a Trustee or some leadership capacity. "Pride comes before a fall" and I can see that factoring into this.
I also have to wonder why he wouldn't have arranged to dump Rosalie early on. They were all given to back-room politics and he could have done a lot of damage control getting rid of her - which is exactly what she later oversaw with his departure. An early axe to Roz would have allowed him to reset the table.
My own personal experience with Craig was not altogether negative. Once he got into Emporia and started turning the operation into a personal-podium and comically bad business model he laid the groundwork for sucking out all the energy of the Way Corps program and there wasn't room for two Vacuums, VPW had adopted that spot pretty well by that time. He went from a likeable "believer" jock to an absolute vanilla wall of boring very quickly, and it seemed at the time I was seeing the "Peter Principle" acting out, a book I owned that I even gave to Vince F later when he took over the Trunk office, not because he was doing it as much as it seemed Emporia and Craig were quickly growing out of their own capacity to succeed.
But Craig had a heart, and although he wasn't much of a people person and lacked the warmth of personality to draw others to himself, he knew how to do the right thing, he wasn't stupid, and he did right by others under many circumstances. Of that I know, for certain. He could also take a cold hands off approach to anything he didn't understand or want to get involved in.
But on the larger stage of the "Presidency", he seemed a puppet without a master and on that topic I've concluded that when VPW realized Craig and his inner circle werent' going to listen to him anymore, the ship started it's slide sideways and south.
Anyway - any thoughts confirming or otherwise that it was Donna and Roz specifically that created the vicious "Homo Storm"?
I have to wonder why he didn't call them out if that was the case. If it was because Donna was his wife and they had children and he wanted to shield them I understand that but as it progressed he took it out on many others, making it particularly fraudulent to hide their activity. A somewhat less than best but acceptable route might have been to simply step down and allow these issues to be worked out, while continuing to act as a Trustee or some leadership capacity. "Pride comes before a fall" and I can see that factoring into this.
I also have to wonder why he wouldn't have arranged to dump Rosalie early on. They were all given to back-room politics and he could have done a lot of damage control getting rid of her - which is exactly what she later oversaw with his departure. An early axe to Roz would have allowed him to reset the table.
1) Ryan Holiday recently wrote a book, "Ego is the Enemy," which is jam packed with insight and historical records which expand on the concept of pride causing people to fail.
2) Rosalie had the dirt on Loy. Even if he had tried to oust her, he was infinitely more vulnerable.
3) To me, your theory on how Martindale developed his mania regarding homosexuality seems inherently plausible. But not everyone agrees.
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waysider
This is an interesting topic and certainly worthy of discussion. I think, however, it may be better suited for the doctrinal forum. I say this only because Way doctrines are heavily invested in the idea that this and many other characteristics, such as alcoholism, cancer, mental illness and a whole slew of others, are the result of devil spirit possession. So, I think you can predict how this topic may or may not unfold. I'll go out on a limb here and openly state that, not only do I not believe these items are a product of devil possession, I simply no longer believe in the existence of devil spirits. Oops! Did I just accidentally steer us toward the doctrinal forum? My bad.
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Kathy Niclaus
If there's a moderator who can move it, then I have no objection. In retrospect doctrine did not even blip on my mental radar because being agnostic/borderline atheist, science is the basis for my thinking so I don't take doctrine into consideration unless I am comparing doctrinal views within a particular religion; i.e., Satmar Judaism vs Chabad Judaism, etc. Like you though, I don't believe that devil spirits are the cause of the aforementioned maladies and don't believe in their existence either, but believe them to be a fabrication that are a convenient machination used for the purpose of manipulating and controlling people through fear. Hey! We can be a tag team!
Edited by Kathy Niclauspunctuation
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DontWorryBeHappy
One of my ANCC Nursing certifications is in Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. This discipline is involved with the study of the active “ingredients”, mechanism of action, common side effects, and therapeutic results expectations available from the proposed medical therapies and interventions. I have have hundreds of clinical hours in the treatment, counseling, and studying of patients whom TWIt would have classified and consigned to the “trash heap” of devil spirit possession. It was a wonderful journey of learning and understanding of not only the mental illnesses human beings have to deal with, but also the utter ridiculousness of Advanced Class Aryan propaganda, antiquated “Christian” superstitions, and the “mechanics” of devil spirit possession and it’s accompanying mandatory dissing of ALL forms of psychiatry and psychology as having been “born in a seance”. A true disservice to those suffering treatable and curable psychiatric disorders.
As a fellow believer in science and the scientific method, along with being a fan of and “dabbler” in quantum physics, I realize that things like “demons”, “possession”, telekinesis, telepathy, etc, are indeed possible theoretically. That allows for the thorough scientific investigation of what TWIt referred to as all things “spiritual” with an open and curious mind based on the objectitivity of the scientific method. An example of this is the investigation into Einstein’s hypotheses of “spooky motion at a distance” and “time travel”.
Point being.....the possibility of “devil spirit possession” exists. However the doctrines and “procedures” of dictor paul re: “the holy spirit field” are fabricated, fictitious, and fraudulent imo. They are no different in effect and “results” than what is depicted in “The Exorcist”, or “The Exorcism Of Emily Rose” and other horror film cult favorites. They are also no more proveable, efficacious, or “real” than what those films display, imo. Fundamentalist Christian teachings, theories, and understandings of “devils and demons” is NOT objective nor does it rely upon scientific method to validate its claims or doctrines. It is basically a collection of hand-me-down, ancient superstitions and hearsay regarding heretofore inexplicable human behaviors or experiences, imo. Can such things as described in the AC happen? The possibility exists, but scientific study and investigation has yet to yield objective proof. So, as a healthcare professional, I choose to go with the proveable, predictable, and repeatable therapies which have been discovered and implemented in the clinical arena. At the same time, I do not discount the possibility of miracles, healings, and other inexplicable “spiritual” phenomena.
I believe the teachings and practices of modern fundamentalist or charismatic “Christians” in the “devil spirit realm” are disinformed, inappropriate, misguided, dangerous, and damaging to those they are applied to. They are close-minded and suspicious, as well as ineffective and anecdotal evidentially. TWIt doctrines and practices in this “holy spirit field” are subjective at best, and totally based in the personal perversions and peccadilloes of vp wierwille, BG Leonard, J.E. Stiles, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Earl Stanley Jones, Rosalind Rinker, K.C. Pillai, Oral Roberts, E. Kenyon, and others whom wierwille used to “credit” with inspiring or mentoring him. They are based completely on personal experience and “private interpretation”, NOT Biblical “research, teaching, and fellowship”. TWIt adherents are dangerously self-deluded in their fairy tale understanding of devil spirits and possession. They are misguided and become religious bigots just like Falwell Jr., Franklin Graham, Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Jim Bakker, all the Swaggarts, the Bo and Stanley Reahards, the Sue Pierces, the Gerald Wrenns, the Charlie Quillens, the Mark Frontczaks and Victor Barnards, The SOWERS, Greg Backes, Maurice Goulet, John Lynn and his latest “ministry”, TLTF, the Terry and Melanie Wilsons in Black Forrest, CO, Momentus and all the other Dan Tocchini cults, STFI, Vinny Finnegan’s Living Hope Ministries International, “Dr.” Dale Sides and his bs “Liberating ministries for Christ international”, Brian Bliss and his phony “Christian Leadership and Service Academy”, Geer’s “Word Promotions Ltd.” franchises, Earl and Nancy Burton, Kris and Katie Kile and their Momentus offshoot, Howard Walker and his WC FB Page, Steve Sann and his John Richeson Ning Way Corps site, Jerry Carr, Bob Hanna, Bob and Kathy Mathieson, Paul Norcross, Larry Panarello, Revival and Restoration with Boob and Doody Moneyhands, Michael and Cindy Fort, Ed and Jackie Horney, et al, Michael Rood and his Rood Awakening Jewish roots cult, and all the rest of the domnionist, alt-right neo-Nazi cults, offshoots, and splinters of that horror show in new Knoxville, Ohio.
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Kathy Niclaus
I get it- there are actions results that are possible, but the causes are not attributable to what some groups/doctrines might believe. Just like medicine and science has evolved due to experimentation to prove or disprove. The first time I went through the Haunted Mansion ride at Walt Disney World I was an Advanced Class Grad and freaked out just a little, because I knew that I wasn't seeing holograms, and the things floating in the air were not ghosts, but they sure fit the description of ectoplasm. LOL, I did not know about the illusion known as Pepper's Ghost done with glass, mirrors, and mannequins.
So, nursing, huh? Did you go to school after you left in 1986? I have a tremendous respect for nurses, and for all disciplines in the behavioral sciences, especially pharmacology. I've seen a life turned around completely by 60 mg of Prozac a day, I am not kidding you.
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DontWorryBeHappy
I entered Nursing School in 1990, and began working as a GN in 1992. I went on to get certified in Wound care/Ostomy (WONC), Nephrology (CNN) and Psychiatric Nursing Pharmacology. I was also an OR RN. Best educational and career decision I ever made!
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oldiesman
I always thought that homosexuality is a perversion and still do. I remember in high school a homo challenged me on it and said I was perverted for believing that. What did I say to him? Nothing... nothing I say would change his mind. Now, today I don't call them homos anymore I call them sodomites. "God made male and female". This is still the truth; I believe the people and society are in deep trouble, straying from this truth and is in peril, perhaps like Sodom and Gomorrah once was. I don't wish ill on anybody but I think we're in deep doo doo. Now we have Drag Queen Story Hours in libraries. ugh.
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Kathy Niclaus
Well I mean you're certainly welcome to your belief. I myself don't believe in creationism at all.
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Kathy Niclaus
Hey Oldies,
By any chance, were you Way Corps, on Assignment in New Jersey? Lemme know!
Kathy
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engine
The journey to realiization of self outside Christian Fundamentalism and Twit has been long and arduous for me. This site has, again, proven invaluable.
DWBH, unbeknownst to him, has helped me tremendously on the finding of the Authentic Self and by mentioning other concepts to which I was CLUELESS. I truly thought I left the Twit outlook on life years after 1986, but the last ten years showed me I had not. I essentially cocooned me, myself, and I (ALL of US) for the last 1 1/2 years to investigate where my behaviors and actions, beliefs, and so forth, originated because my life was still a true mess. Worse than ten years ago. Oh, and my sisters deserve credit for saving my life: they told me that they thought I had some kind of PTSD or something (in addition to one vice I've struggled with since '86), and that IT , that Thing, was from Twit! That was 3 years ago my sisters told me.
Shocking what I have seen. I have felt like I was one of the engineers in Chernobyl (HBO) who, so well "trained" in the Soviet- Communist doctrine, that they could not believe the reactor blew up. But, there it was: blown up. Denial. Why could they not wrap their heads around it? Well, all the information in the studies proved it couldn't explode, plus, it was Soviet made, and therefore the BEST, and THIS reactor type CANNOT blow up. Check it out. Don't want to spoil it. The cognitive dissonance term I've seen around here was in full view on the actors faces. What a fine job those actors did.
And, my goodness, it's a really bright world out there. WOW. Might what I am experiencing here of late perhaps be compared to Helen Keller's first understanding "water?" An awakening?
One step was going back to my science. That's in another thread. Genesis 1 "became" (hah) allegorical to me and not literal. If Fundamentalist folks don't like that, well, I'll just say Revelation is mostly allegorical and symbolic, yet you chose to make it literal, right? So, why, based on your approach, can't I take your literal and make it allegorical and symbolic?
I investigated myself because I knew Twit had affected me, but how deeply? How much. What could I not see? What did I leave unfinished? Sisters said trauma??? So, off I went. Why was I erratic? Where was my happy personal life?
The doctrine and abuse from Twit and corpse did traumatize me, and the fact that it was force fed and with a good helping of abuse there really f'd me up. As I see it, the introjected regulations, beliefs or actions that do not agree with my Authentic self and that I "integrated" these into my "self" as good. They were not good at all, caused severe conflicts. I was not aware how PERVASIVE the "trauma" went inside me until lately during my sabbatical. And, it's mostly Twit/corpse junk, and I know when the first "shudder" went through me, and who it was- a 3rd corpse..close to VPW. Summer 1974, West Virginia, 2 months in, at the limb house for a meeting w/ fellow servants, all local believers- a great bunch. I was so happy to be there. So happy. All open and vulnerable. Limb Coor walks in to the front of room to the podium, but we remained seated, then we got a 10 minute reproof session to STAND next time he entered the room out of RESPECT for the word of god that is inside of him. Severe reproof. Blindsided. Mortal Sin stuff. We were all scared (fake reverent and humble). Then, a few weeks later, I HAD to see him about something (?), and when I sat down in his office I was so scared that I was literally shaking in my chair. He saw me shaking. Shaking like a wet dog in the freezing rain. The first trauma to self had occurred, IMO. More to follow as I get led in.
Because of this path, I was able to formulate a much better view of all this for me. This question of homosexuality is not too hard for me to handle now.
I now say that each person has the right to be who they are, no matter what that is. They have the right to be their fully beautiful (hopefully?) selves....their Authentic Selves. Their struggle to find their Identity and acceptance and place in this world is, undoubtedly, much easier for a heterosexual person like myself, and that was confusing enough time for me. I was in NYC this past April with my family to see "Hamilton." Yes, I loved it, and because my sister gifted me the ticket I don't get any Christmas presents from her for the next 10 years! OK!? TEN YEARS!
But, our waiter at lunch before the play, a slender 30'ish year old man of Oriental extraction, had a remarkably beautiful, soft, and feminine voice. Later, my sister, more advanced than me having never been in Twit, mentioned that he might be transitioning. I was happy for that person if that's what it is. Finding themselves. And, being themselves.
I am heterosexual, and I do not understand the attraction at all, not one whit. Therefore, I find that world unappealing, and, to me, repulsive. But, in all honesty, if I think for a moment of sex between couples I know, well, that really super grosses me out, too! Like, gnarly, dude. Go away. So, I ask you, do you really care what goes on in someones' bedroom?
I don't like a local Market with just potatoes (Lo Shonta or Russet) , but one full of the Variety of foods and colors of all shapes, sizes and kinds, and different flowers and aromas, and rocks.
M'OK?
Edited by engineOCD..typos, grammar...nevermind
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Kathy Niclaus
OMG you just had me rolling with the lo shonta remark.
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Lifted Up
I was led to believe in the Way and Way Corps that gays and lesbians did not have the capacity for real care and compassion. I was very wrong. I see lots of it, and benefit from some of it.
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Lifted Up
I listened for less time then you but continued to believe it for longer, i.e. around three decades. My waking up on this subject, as on a few other things, started with my best survivor friend's account of a very caring friendship she had had in the past. This friend eventually died of AIDS. But I quickly learned in real time that her testimony, and her friend's caring, was real., mainly thrugh other friends I met through her. And, even before my mnd was really changed, the seeds were planted, unintentionally, by the hate spewed in LCM's rants.
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waysider
O.K, I'm going to jump off the crazy end of the pool here. Several years ago, I worked with a lady who is a lesbian and has been in a committed relationship for 30+ years. We got to know each other pretty well but I always felt like I had to be careful with what I said to her because one of those nasty, old debuhl spurts was always listening to what I said. It embarrasses me now to think about how silly the whole thing was. Fortunately, we're still friends, at least in a face book kind of sense and exchange FB posts frequently..
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Kathy Niclaus
Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefitting from it- I have been a tangible recipient.
I am going to give you the skeletal backstory of a WOW year romance, 1978-1979. It was with someone who was bisexual but sexually inexperienced and ambiguous. Becoming involved with the ministry committed him to heterosexuality. He asked me to marry him and I accepted. He went WOW, I went back home at the end of my WOW year. On Christmas Eve, he broke it off by phone. Naturally I was crushed. At the following Rock of Ages we were cordial, I got the truth out of him one night after three beers, and that was the end of it. We maintained semi contact at subsequent Rock of Ages but not in between. The last time I saw him was at the message board in 1983. 6 years later I was married, cooking dinner, I get a phone call out of the blue. It was him. He had made phone calls using directory assistance to family in New Jersey and found me. I think he was rather shocked to learn that I was married. I was already in counseling because after all I had married a sociopath but of course that wasn't anything that was acknowledged by counseling clergy especially not when he was in an income bracket that provided handsome abundant sharing. There was a Thanksgiving card in the mail, and then a Christmas card. The next time I heard from him was a phone call on Christmas Day. He was surprised I had never received a letter he sent. I realized then the sociopath intercepted it from the apartment mailbox cluster. That was 1989. After that all contact was lost. Fast forward to 2015. After sporadic attempts over the years, once I became computer literate, I was finally successful in re-establishing contact with him. He was in a domestic partnership of 22 years with a man. After multiple unfulfilling relationships with other women after me, he turned his attentions to guys. Emotionally he still relates to women, but physically his attraction towards men had grown. I immediately told him I did not judge him on his sexuality. It did not take us long to pick up our friendship where it had left off, and given the years to grow up and mature and have the perspective and understanding of trial and experience, it was actually much better and easier. I unburdened my conscience by apologizing for my many faux pas and rash remarks made in youth. Gratefully he had a much kinder memory of me and my behavior then I had of my behavior at the time. Or perhaps over the years he chose to remember the good things because there were a lot of good times between us, and a lot of times yes, I did try to be the good girlfriend, especially when he went out on the WOW field with care packages, etc. So pretty soon things were kind of like they used to be, with email replacing letters, and me sending the occasional box with something home-baked or something unobtainable where he lives, like fantastic everything bagels. Then there is Christmas and his birthday.
So here are some photos-
Fast forward to my birthday in 2016- FedEx shows up- large Australian opal surrounded by two rows of diamonds set in 14k gold ring comes from him for my birthday. He remembered that way back in 1979, when we were two penniless 19 year olds, that my dream engagement ring was an opal set with diamonds.
That was not the only gift. The other gift is a 22" strand of real multicolor south seas pearls, each 20mm in diameter, with a 18k gold clasp with an inlaid diamond.
For Christmas 2016, my birthstone Peridot and diamond earrings, 14k, and Peridot and I forget the other stone set in 14k ring.
Birthday 2017 I forgot the stone (I have the tags saved) six carat pink oval stone crowned with diamonds in a setting that makes it look like a pineapple and in homeage to my residence in Arizona a vintage pin of a roadrunner with Ruby and diamond. One piece has I8k one has 14k, I forget.
I would say I have definitely benefitted from my friendship with a gay man in my life- my ex husband was never so generous to me, quite the opposite. And the benefit has not just been material things. He has been a wonderful thoughtful friend, as is his partner.
So, ya never know.......
Edited by Kathy NiclausVoice typing typo
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Lifted Up
Kathy does that mean you also felt the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion?
Edited by Lifted Upshorten post
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Lifted Up
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Kathy Niclaus
No, when I said "Per the capacity for real care and compassion from non-straight people, and benefiting from it- I have been a tangible recipient" I meant I had received tangible benefits from a non-straight person/persons. The benefits are the beautiful jewelry gifted to me by my former fiance' from my WOW year. That was why I gave you the backstory to the tangible benefits. I did not state in my narrative that I felt that the Way taught that non-straight people were not capable of compassion.
As for him breaking it off with me by phone on Christmas eve from the WOW field, it was not something done out of a lack of compassion on his part. I learned later it was motivated by near-perpetual pressure placed on him by his interim Way Corps WOW family coordinator and his apprentice Way Corps WOW sister. Much like the Mormons put a great deal of pressure on youth to go on the Mission program before college, The Way loved to push people onto the WOW field and then get them to sign up for the Way Corps. Talking him out of marriage better suited the needs of the ministry.
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socks
Hi Kathy, thanks for the research paper doc. It's an interesting read and well written, will have to digest it.
I do think this is a topic that fits into "Open" better than Doctrinal.
I've always felt that it's a topic that isn't served well if restricted to religious inquiry although that's part of the discussion, certainly GS. Religious opinion pretty much mangles the topic into a gnarly mass of denial - anything that doesn't seem to fit into the equation is just ignored, denied or considered an attack on the religious position. Many of the world's social issues end up like a pile of dirty laundry with one clean towel on top - they just focus on the clean towel and ignore the dirty ones and pretend there's a pile of clean towels and the dirty ones will be handled in the sweet-by-and-by.
Which goes to the basics of life and determining what life is and how best to proceed through it and into the future. One thing striking about Jesus and what He is recorded to have taught is that He addressed two extreme views of life - eternity, God, judgment, righteousness on the one hand and abundant life, a heavenly Father, forgiveness and grace on the other.....one is everything and everyone, the other is personal and individual. "The Word became flesh" indeed - a God who creates universes cares about His creation's individual parts.
Jesus taught around and to the basic idea of a male/female partnership, "marriage", and that relationship is used in the New Testament to illustrate the unity of the much larger body of Christ and it's "members in particular"....again, the larger reality being understood in an individual perspective.
He also taught that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.".....so reality changes in God's plan as Jesus taught it. Or does it? Hard to say, but we have some pointers.
I was born heterosexual, I didn't choose it. I don't choose to stay heterosexual in preferences and I don't think I could, or want to, choose to change that. It's just the way I was born and it appears to the natural way the majority of humans are born - some are born male and they're sexual attraction is towards females, serving procreation. "Be fruitful and multiply". But if I didn't choose, why do I have to say someone else did....?
Maybe they did, maybe they do, maybe the biology and physical components produce the conditions that allow for it.
That personal awareness makes me think that someone could be born homosexual and then have a natural preference for their own sex. That doesn't serve procreation and if I assumed that all sexual preference was primarily designed to serve procreation it would be a major failure. I don't know that though. Procreation is clearly the intention of our species, it's our future so to speak but breaking it down, that doesn't mean that every single human ever born must and should have more children, be a father or mother. If I say that's the ideal state, is it the only permissible state? What's the purpose of God's creation particularly when there may not be any genders of any kind "in the resurrection", as Jesus taught?
These are just thoughts, questions. Jesus taught to forgive, to help, to pray and to have faith towards God, as both their Creator and their Father. Can everyone do that? Can anyone accept His act of grace and be "born again" - and if so what is the effect on their human sexuality?
When I see people acting out "gay" lifestyles in seemingly outrageous and shocking ways, that's behavior. What does it represent? Every gay person doesn't wear pink tights and dance around the streets in chains. I have no desire to see or participate. But it's behavior, not sexuality - behavior that one chooses to reflect or manifest their sexuality in a way they....choose.
Anyhoo....PEACE!!!
Edited by socksNeed more smilies. I like smilies. They say everything that needs to be said without saying anything at all. A great tool for a written media.
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Twinky
Oh Kathy, if you had heard LCM's rants on Corps Night...! It'd be a three-hour session, with the majority being a scream-fest from His Horribleness around the topic of homosexuals, their disgusting deviant practices, their deceptions and manipulations, their entering "caring professions" simply to pull the wool over our eyes that they might be nice people, but actually, they're vile, disgusting, schemers, etc, etc, etc. The first time, I thought, wow, there must be a problem, I'd never have thought that. Second time: there really is a problem. Third time: This is going a bit far. Fourth and subsequent CNs: He's kinda upset about this, but off the rails. And then the purges started, months of males allegedly caught in the act, or who'd confessed, or left of their own volition because they were that way oriented.
Oh yes. He definitely went on (and on, and on) about homosexuals using "caring professions" as cover, not out of any true sense of care.
And all this at a time when his wife had left him to go and live with Rosalie Rivenbark, in a sexual relationship. So you know these "teachings" were his rage, frustration, humiliation, whatever, at his wife's (and Rosalie's) behaviour. All this at a time, too, when he'd been bonking many other women than Donna - other men's wives, single women, he didn't care.
I can't speak for what VPW may have taught. I do know, most certainly, what LCM taught. And did.
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Twinky
As to homosexuals: there are several "gay friendly" churches in this city, including the principal church of the city. In my volunteer work as a Street Pastor, I have visited (= called by) a well-known gay pub and struck up many conversations with young males. You would not believe the treatment that has been meted out to them by different churches: beatings, cold baths, exorcisms, endless Bible studies, and finally banning. Some of these men know a lot of Bible verses; they've tried hard not to be homosexual but - but they just fancy men. Some even say, "I know it's wrong." This sort of treatment of these men by their churches is shameful and so lacking in compassion that I'm badly embarrassed. My response now is: "I'm glad you've found someone to love." And I've told some, "Did you know God loves you? Really loves you?" For some, it's clear that this is one message they've never heard from their churches.
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Kathy Niclaus
Oh, let me clarify, please note that in the quote I say I did not state in my narrative that I felt that the Way taught etc................... because Lifted Up specifically asked me if that's what was the meaning of a statement I had made, and it wasn't. I wanted to answer Lifted up's question as quickly as possible and stay on point.
Now, was that how I felt or believed the Way's position on homosexuals was, that they were bereft of compassion and the absolute basest of the base? Absolutely! LCM Characterized them as the worst of sinners, the most debauched and perverse, you name the worst possible adjective, that is a homosexual.
I attended the week long Advanced Class Special in 1992 at HQ, and the two weeks long re-taping of the new Advanced Class at HQ in 1993 where both times Discerning of Spirits was the final manifestation covered. I think it was in 1992 when LCM closed out the week and the segment on the manifestation by quoting a section of scripture about what the end result of homosexuality would be, probably from Romans, if memory serves it's a verse about them receiving the recompense of their error, and him saying that AIDS was them being "paid in full" and then swiftly seguing into prayer to close the session/class.
In 1993 my husband and I had moved to New Knoxville. Because we were too fat to comfortably sit in the regular auditorium seats, we sat in folding chairs next to Aunt Lydia, who was next to Annalee and Phil Skapura, facing the stage we were in the back row, to the left of the back row for the Trustee wives. Rosalie and Donna were always hovering back there behind us, and it was always curious to me what a Rosalie clone Donna had become, kind of like a Rosalie Stepford sister. Well, as we all know now, a Rosalie Stepford wife. Even back then I figured something was going on, Donna was always a little butch, and Rosalie was always so fake. A friend of mine on staff during the 80s made a statement prior to VPW's death that everyone used to joke and called Rosalie "the fourth trustee." Well, if only they could see into the future..... Her ambitions were naked even then. She was always such a fake; my friend worked in printing and was aligned with publications, and another friend whose mother took the class in 1957 found her saccharine personality regurgitating. She called Rosalie "Miss Alabama Dixie Belle" and imitated her voice, as Rosalie was her daughter's boss for many, many years. When I first moved to New Knoxville, I volunteered to work in Floral with Linda Evans. When Rosalie was displeased with the podium arrangements for a SNS, Linda would receive an Inter-office mail on Monday from Rosalie with the flowers in the envelope. I was mortified. What a passive-aggressive Biatch. That was my introduction to living in New Knoxville. That, and volunteering to work on the ROA 1993 crew, and being treated like a plantation slave. It was horrible. LCM screaming during lunch in the tent. The coup d' grace? There was a tent of ornamental potted and hanging plants alongside Wierwille road for distribution. A lot of them had to go to the House of His Healing Presence. The most direct route was across the road, and through a path by the little Waytels and past the motor coach. But no, we could not go that way. LCM might be in there studying. As if there were not dozens of places on grounds where he could study and prepare teachings. Volunteers had to be physically stressed. Was a golf cart offered to ferry the plants to the HOHHP? No. Like the laborers in "The Bridge On The River Kwai" during one of the hottest Augusts in Ohio, we had to take the crosswalk, and the long road into the Way Woods, the road that goes to the Chalet, and go that way to the HOHHP on foot to deliver plants there and elsewhere. Back and forth on foot, multiple trips in the heat. Years later, when the news broke about the sex scandals, I was in South Africa, and immediately I thought that the reason we could not take the short path was because we might catch someone coming or going from a tryst in the motor coach. How infuriating. Okay, back from my tangent.
I also was in attendance at ROA 1994 when the special meeting was called for the criteria of Advanced Class Grads and other minimum level people and he went into a minimum hour diatribe about homosexuality and it being a major problem that had surfaced. After that, we moved to St. Mary's but soon we started noticing on Sunday nights that people were missing, and then the gossip would get around. My husband had known Irwin, Mr. Steam, from Florida. He had moved him and his younger wife and bunch of kids to Sidney, opened a shoe repair shop. Irwin was an individual, didn't dress up for the SNS. He was labeled as a homo, his daughter was blamed for running a sex ring during the Rock according to Mal and Jan George. He went to the local paper in Sidney and they did a story. Bill Greene told the paper that The Way does not do anything along the lines of excommunications. My then husband and I looked at each other and said "That's a lie." We knew damn well they did, as in mark and avoid. We were attending the SNS up until early April of 1995 and heard plenty of the rants. Some of the Corps night comments would get leaked to me from friends, as I was considered a solid believer. As I have alluded to in other posts, a ruse was employed to isolate us because we were on the cusp of finding out about a major sex scandal.
My only other comment is that there were some isolated incidents, comments, that made my ears perk concerning a few individuals, wondering if they were lesbians, and yes, a few of them did finally out themselves, which doesn't bother me. What is tragic is the ones who are still closeted and perpetuating the same doctrine that LCM spewed. How does anybody live with that much self loathing- or do I answer my own question by saying well, look at Rosalie, there's your answer?
Edited by Kathy Niclauspunctuation
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Twinky
Oh Kathy, we're contemporaries; you understand the LCM rants. In rez, it was even worse, not just Corps Night, but lunchtime "sharings" to several hundred captives, that would go on for a couple of hours too, and once in a while at breakfast (very small audience), about how he'd "run off" some more homos. I was on Bev Crew for the advanced class you mention. God, what a mad time the whole of being in rez was!
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socks
Twinkster - I know the official version as reported years ago was that Craig suddenly became aware of "homo infiltration" into the Way Corps. It's always sounded like Craig's war on homo's was sparked by something, one or more events, and that it was very likely him finding out about or being told that Donna and Rosalie (or whoever) were having sexual relations. Is that your understanding? I can picture his viciousness being driven by his own misguided sense of betrayal, misguided because his own need to pursue sex outside his marriage clearly trumped the need of anyone else to pursue the same, in or out of marriage, homosexual or otherwise.
I have to wonder why he didn't call them out if that was the case. If it was because Donna was his wife and they had children and he wanted to shield them I understand that but as it progressed he took it out on many others, making it particularly fraudulent to hide their activity. A somewhat less than best but acceptable route might have been to simply step down and allow these issues to be worked out, while continuing to act as a Trustee or some leadership capacity. "Pride comes before a fall" and I can see that factoring into this.
I also have to wonder why he wouldn't have arranged to dump Rosalie early on. They were all given to back-room politics and he could have done a lot of damage control getting rid of her - which is exactly what she later oversaw with his departure. An early axe to Roz would have allowed him to reset the table.
My own personal experience with Craig was not altogether negative. Once he got into Emporia and started turning the operation into a personal-podium and comically bad business model he laid the groundwork for sucking out all the energy of the Way Corps program and there wasn't room for two Vacuums, VPW had adopted that spot pretty well by that time. He went from a likeable "believer" jock to an absolute vanilla wall of boring very quickly, and it seemed at the time I was seeing the "Peter Principle" acting out, a book I owned that I even gave to Vince F later when he took over the Trunk office, not because he was doing it as much as it seemed Emporia and Craig were quickly growing out of their own capacity to succeed.
But Craig had a heart, and although he wasn't much of a people person and lacked the warmth of personality to draw others to himself, he knew how to do the right thing, he wasn't stupid, and he did right by others under many circumstances. Of that I know, for certain. He could also take a cold hands off approach to anything he didn't understand or want to get involved in.
But on the larger stage of the "Presidency", he seemed a puppet without a master and on that topic I've concluded that when VPW realized Craig and his inner circle werent' going to listen to him anymore, the ship started it's slide sideways and south.
Anyway - any thoughts confirming or otherwise that it was Donna and Roz specifically that created the vicious "Homo Storm"?
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Rocky
1) Ryan Holiday recently wrote a book, "Ego is the Enemy," which is jam packed with insight and historical records which expand on the concept of pride causing people to fail.
2) Rosalie had the dirt on Loy. Even if he had tried to oust her, he was infinitely more vulnerable.
3) To me, your theory on how Martindale developed his mania regarding homosexuality seems inherently plausible. But not everyone agrees.
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