Yeah, Skyrider.... splinters are oftentimes worse than the original disease from which they metastasized!
Look at “Rev” Charlie Quillen’s “Faithful In Christ Ministries” out of Chicago, IL & hooked in tight with CFFM, SOWERS, Wrenn, Reahard and all the other pathetic wierwilleites running around the fringiest fringes of the Alt-Right Aryan “Christian” Dominionist groups flooding the evangelical fundamentalist persecuted hordes of the faithful! They provide shelter and cover for each other, doing their best to sweep away all the blood tracks dripping back to Wierwille, The Way, and and all the spiritual and sexual abuse that they participated in and/or enabled!
Quillen (along with MacMullan) was the wannabe Heinrich Himmler of the wierwille/martindale reich....Head Of The Gestapo and SS. We’ve had tons of stories here at the GSC through the years, involving the creepy stares and eerie presence of the “bless patrol chief’s” security for the MOGs of TWI. Standing guard at the door of the motor coach as the abused victims marched in and out under the watchful stare of “Rev” Quillen and “Rev” Geer, game OF Thrones 1970s cornfield cult style! LOL!
Well, now “Rev” Charlie has a pretty decent sized Wierwille-cult in IL now and has all sorts of “related pages” and “ministries” he sponsors, like “The Solution Radio Show: Jesus Christ Is God’s Solution” which is advertised all over Charlie’s pages. Greg Backes runs the joint and hooks up with old TWIt broadcast refugees like Mike Verdicchio, the voice of Sprits In The Althlete, who also does some jeeezus show on some radio station out west somewhere. CFFM, and SOWERS are heavily promoted as is Sparrow Cartoons, a “Christian” cartoon publishing company owned and operated by none other then one of Charlie’s most loyal Blesstapo Patrol henchman, and Heinrich Himmler to convicted rapist and cult leader, and fellow corpse bruddah, Victor Barnard! Frontczak has 476 likes and followers on his page now!
Taking care of each other is now their job, instead of taking care of the wierwille family. Well......same thing really, since the only wierwille’s still living are all active in CFFM, SOWERS, or John Hagee Ministries......and these ex-wayfer cults are all intermarried with each other!
So, I agree, Skyrider. The splinters are worse in the sense that they have brewed and distilled wierwillean doctrinal and psychosocial perversion down into a slick, state-of-the-art megachurch con, as good and as far removed from what’s left of TWIt in New Knoxville and Gunnison. Makes it easier to “forgive” your old pals and overlook their current associations and alliances with cult-buddies and grifters from their glory daze in TWIt, boozin’ and sexin’ it up in the name of jeeezus and da holy spurt! Worse than hypocrites......cowardly, shameful enablers. Worse indeed, Skyrider. Worse indeed.
Yeah, Skyrider.... splinters are oftentimes worse than the original disease from which they metastasized!
.......[snip]
Taking care of each other is now their job, instead of taking care of the wierwille family. Well......same thing really, since the only wierwille’s still living are all active in CFFM, SOWERS, or John Hagee Ministries......and these ex-wayfer cults are all intermarried with each other!
So, I agree, Skyrider. The splinters are worse in the sense that they have brewed and distilled wierwillean doctrinal and psychosocial perversion down into a slick, state-of-the-art megachurch con, as good and as far removed from what’s left of TWIt in New Knoxville and Gunnison. Makes it easier to “forgive” your old pals and overlook their current associations and alliances with cult-buddies and grifters from their glory daze in TWIt, boozin’ and sexin’ it up in the name of jeeezus and da holy spurt! Worse than hypocrites......cowardly, shameful enablers. Worse indeed, Skyrider. Worse indeed.
Yeah.......splinter cults "taking care of each other."
The "reverends" stay "reverends."
Corps still hold spiritual status and leadership roles in this two-tier system.
Rather than align with wierwille-mandates of DFAC (dropped from active corps).....they dismiss vpw's contempt on cop-outs.
The splinter cults laud pfal-doctrine..........yet, bury every corps letter (and teaching) that wierwille directed their way.
Cognitive dissonance is on parade as these splinter cults fly their flags and wear their masks.
And then, others follow them into these splinter cults.......because "churches are evil messengers."
How long before someone posts on GSC......... "I left the Revival and Restoration Group, and here's why......."
I considered doing this but then determined, since I wasn't really with them in the first place, it wasn't my place. I just basically stopped interacting with them.
And it's true, they still hold VPW in high esteem, and they do still teach his teachings, albeit phrased a little differently sometimes. Thankfully, while I was still listening to their teachings, they had stopped teaching the most bizarre aspects, like breathing in to receive holy spirit. And it is also true they have retained their reverend titles - reverend of what? I wonder. And probably the most irritating aspect, which is the main reason I lost interest, is it's the same core group that do the teachings, teaching what they think everyone needs to hear.
Here’s one of Frontczak’s most faithful followers. She and her 4 Barnard boys are very tied in to Markie and Grandma Jean. Jess Schweiss’ sisters and mom are having fun in MOGGIE Mark’s cult too! Just one big happy perverted Wayfer cult family with cartoons!! Funny to watch them carry on as if they were never responsible for assisting Victor Barnard in his sexual abuse and rape of 10 underage girls, including their own!! It’s good to be a cult leader, and the right hand enabler of one! Good food too!
Because she is Barnard’s wife. She supported, promoted, assisted, and partook of the perverted fruit of his perverted way tree splinter in Finlayson, MN, Bellingham and Spokane, WA, and in Brazil. They still don’t think they did anything wrong! Just like with TWIt...... it’s ALL Victor’s fault!! They were just following God’s orders like Adolph Eichmann!
What was happening in December 1978? Why were clergy leaving twi?
[ Shortly after Jim Jones and Jonestown Cult mass murder ]
Note: 1) The "great accuracy of the Word" and 2) the principles of The Way Ministry are interlocked !!
If you LEAVE twi......you LEAVE the word.
~~~~~~~~~~~
"Some I ordained have not remained faithful -- they've broken fellowship with God and the household of The Way. Yet, I was good enough, loved God and you enough, and you were blessed and honored enough to accept God's ordination and my blessing. Breaking of ordination commitments has made me very hesitant about future ordinations. What should I do?"
"Why all the problems? I think you know what I mean? Fighting and dislike of each other -- jealously, prejudice, divorce, remarriage, dope, etc. etc. etc. God forbid that our ordinations of Way Corps grads turn into a mockery, and a laughingstock of the community."
"The least you could do if you were ordained and now you're outside the household of The Way is never to used the term 'Reverend.' If you're still sticking in the household of The Way but you've neglected the loyalty commitment to the ordination vows and the exciting, continuing fellowship of it, build up your life on the Word and believe again in the great accuracy of the Word, and principles of The Way Ministry, that your ordination may again be meaningful."
As cynical as I can be, I would refrain from making such a blanket statement. I think there are some who are sincerely trying to do their best and are not in it for the glory. That's not to say there isn't some ego involved -- a splinter group, by definition, is led by people who think they can do a better job than the group they left. But to declare them unworthy to be ministers... I don't know. It certainly applies to some, but I cannot see where it applies to all. Sincerity may not be a guarantee for truth, but it is a guarantee for sincerity.
I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.
DWBH: I am taking you at your word that the person you identified as Victor Barnard's wife is, in fact, his wife.
EDIT: This post originally appeared to be directed entirely at DWBH. That was my communication error, for which I take sole responsibility. The remainder of this post is directed at ALL USERS. Multiple user posts were deleted, INCLUDING MY OWN. DWBH did not deserve to have the entire post appear to be directed at him. I am deeply sorry. --modcat5, Raf.
Personal "calling out" of posters for being "friends" or "followers" on Facebook will not be tolerated on this site. To be clear, there are people who "like" and "follow" pages and identify as "friends" with people for the purpose of being able to keep track of what those people do and say on social media. It does NOT necessarily mean those people are actually "friends" or that the "follower" is indeed a follower of that person. I "follow" and monitor multiple people and campaigns that I do not endorse, either on a personal or especially on a professional level.
Multiple posts on this thread were deleted in their entirety. One was trimmed to eliminate what I consider to be a minor but significant infraction of our rules.
This thread is about its topic. Any future posts that are not on topic will be deleted. Not edited. Not trimmed. Not examined. Deleted.
Please do not transfer an argument from a previous thread, especially one where the offending comments have been deleted, onto other threads.
On a personal note: Dear friends are putting us in a position of having to take sides. We don't want to. But when it comes to GSC, we have ONE side: GSC. We will do what we must in the best interest of the site. If we err, we err. But it will NOT be out of disrespect for the mission, purpose and interest of GSC.
I hope and trust this is the last time moderators will need to intervene in this dispute.
Hmm, she did that in 2016, when he first appeared in court. Distancing herself. Closing the door after the horse has bolted, as it were. What, she only just found out about Vic's indiscretions?
I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.
I suppose, in an absolute sense, that's true. In practice, however, I'd probably follow that behavior more with, say, one guy teaching the Bible in his living room than, say, the official head of some splinter organization. I'd be a LOT more leery of those. In an absolutist sense, perhaps one should consider they MAY not be the pride-blinded bloodsuckers that some of their peers are. At the same time, one should be prepared for the possibility that they interpret "Hello" as "Tell me about the latest thing for which you're charging money." (JAL's standard response when he's hawking Momentus under the table while he's denying he is, for example.) Then again, at my first twig meeting, I kept one eye on the door the entire time.
I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.
2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
I suppose, in an absolute sense, that's true. In practice, however, I'd probably follow that behavior more with, say, one guy teaching the Bible in his living room than, say, the official head of some splinter organization. I'd be a LOT more leery of those. In an absolutist sense, perhaps one should consider they MAY not be the pride-blinded bloodsuckers that some of their peers are. At the same time, one should be prepared for the possibility that they interpret "Hello" as "Tell me about the latest thing for which you're charging money." (JAL's standard response when he's hawking Momentus under the table while he's denying he is, for example.) Then again, at my first twig meeting, I kept one eye on the door the entire time.
In this figurative, hypothetical situation............several questions surface:
Why do I feel a need to approach this "dog" in the first place?
What breed is this "dog?".......Rottweiler, Labrador, Havanese, what?
Where is this "dog" ...... on the street or at his home?
If this "dog" is on his own property.........why am I there?
.......
Frankly speaking......after 40 years in twi, maybe it's time to stay away from dogs.
When are splinter cults going to acknowledge that wierwille had scores of false prophecies? /sarc
Years ago when VPW's indiscretions were starting to come out in the open, I remember hearing phrases like "I didn't like his flesh, but he sure could teach some hot Word". I guess it's the same with failed prophecies. A lot of these people admit VPW had weaknesses but they seem to justify their admiration of him by his ability to teach the "Word".
A statement I posted yesterday explaining action I took as a moderator inadvertently made it seem that only one person was the target. The target of the moderating action was an exchange, not a single poster.
Years ago when VPW's indiscretions were starting to come out in the open, I remember hearing phrases like "I didn't like his flesh, but he sure could teach some hot Word". I guess it's the same with failed prophecies. A lot of these people admit VPW had weaknesses but they seem to justify their admiration of him by his ability to teach the "Word".
I find it hard to accept "The Word" taught inor out of The Way, if it had its roots in, never mind how long ago or by whom or how good sounding and "non-cultic" the teaching. In The Way all looked down on anybody not from the Way who promoted Christ and I know that trend continues, Way or splinter. Just like Thw Way...and what was once my favorite restaurant...was founded "for the glory of God"....by prolific abusers and sexual assaulters...and rapists. Do any, Way or splinter, acknowledge that that happened without demeaning survivors?
I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite.
Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's.
Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy.
Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right.
There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships.
Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building.
My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement.
In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money.
PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.
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WordWolf
Back when lcm drove off 80% of twi in 88-89 with his "line in the sand", a fellow with the screen-name of Cesar Salad said he thought the biggest problem with lcm was that he wasn't able to get humbl
p l e r o o
Hello all, This is my first comment after finding these forums a few weeks ago. I was born in 1982 into a family that was part of TWI; my parents were part of a twig group in the Houston a
skyrider
Those who intentionally hide and dismiss wierwille's plagiarism, research foibles, and sexual predation AND have made it their business to lord over others.........THOSE SPLINTER GROUPS are worse! At
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waysider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekL7o8BQkZM
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Rocky
So people can see what is in the youtube link before clicking on it.
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skyrider
Splinter Cults, who elevate wierwille at every turn, are deceivers.......and deceive themselves.
How many times did wierwille's prophecies NOT COME TO PASS?
When are splinter cults going to acknowledge that wierwille had scores of false prophecies? /sarc
Cherry-picking the things they agree with.......and dismissing the things they don't.
To those who've done an honest assessment and review.....the wierwille legacy is in shambles.
Blood Lines Matter
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DontWorryBeHappy
Yeah, Skyrider.... splinters are oftentimes worse than the original disease from which they metastasized!
Look at “Rev” Charlie Quillen’s “Faithful In Christ Ministries” out of Chicago, IL & hooked in tight with CFFM, SOWERS, Wrenn, Reahard and all the other pathetic wierwilleites running around the fringiest fringes of the Alt-Right Aryan “Christian” Dominionist groups flooding the evangelical fundamentalist persecuted hordes of the faithful! They provide shelter and cover for each other, doing their best to sweep away all the blood tracks dripping back to Wierwille, The Way, and and all the spiritual and sexual abuse that they participated in and/or enabled!
Quillen (along with MacMullan) was the wannabe Heinrich Himmler of the wierwille/martindale reich....Head Of The Gestapo and SS. We’ve had tons of stories here at the GSC through the years, involving the creepy stares and eerie presence of the “bless patrol chief’s” security for the MOGs of TWI. Standing guard at the door of the motor coach as the abused victims marched in and out under the watchful stare of “Rev” Quillen and “Rev” Geer, game OF Thrones 1970s cornfield cult style! LOL!
Well, now “Rev” Charlie has a pretty decent sized Wierwille-cult in IL now and has all sorts of “related pages” and “ministries” he sponsors, like “The Solution Radio Show: Jesus Christ Is God’s Solution” which is advertised all over Charlie’s pages. Greg Backes runs the joint and hooks up with old TWIt broadcast refugees like Mike Verdicchio, the voice of Sprits In The Althlete, who also does some jeeezus show on some radio station out west somewhere. CFFM, and SOWERS are heavily promoted as is Sparrow Cartoons, a “Christian” cartoon publishing company owned and operated by none other then one of Charlie’s most loyal Blesstapo Patrol henchman, and Heinrich Himmler to convicted rapist and cult leader, and fellow corpse bruddah, Victor Barnard! Frontczak has 476 likes and followers on his page now!
Taking care of each other is now their job, instead of taking care of the wierwille family. Well......same thing really, since the only wierwille’s still living are all active in CFFM, SOWERS, or John Hagee Ministries......and these ex-wayfer cults are all intermarried with each other!
So, I agree, Skyrider. The splinters are worse in the sense that they have brewed and distilled wierwillean doctrinal and psychosocial perversion down into a slick, state-of-the-art megachurch con, as good and as far removed from what’s left of TWIt in New Knoxville and Gunnison. Makes it easier to “forgive” your old pals and overlook their current associations and alliances with cult-buddies and grifters from their glory daze in TWIt, boozin’ and sexin’ it up in the name of jeeezus and da holy spurt! Worse than hypocrites......cowardly, shameful enablers. Worse indeed, Skyrider. Worse indeed.
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skyrider
Yeah.......splinter cults "taking care of each other."
Psychosocial perversions, indeed.
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skyrider
So.......how much divergence of the wierwille-doctrine can you have and still be considered "a wierwille follower?"
Muddy the waters all you want..........but if you weren't in "The Way" then you were out of fellowship.
corps.....er, ex-corps don't uphold the standards that wierwille taught.......then, advanced class grads and ex-corps are on EQUAL footing.Now, is the time to separate truth from error.
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Taxidev
I considered doing this but then determined, since I wasn't really with them in the first place, it wasn't my place. I just basically stopped interacting with them.
And it's true, they still hold VPW in high esteem, and they do still teach his teachings, albeit phrased a little differently sometimes. Thankfully, while I was still listening to their teachings, they had stopped teaching the most bizarre aspects, like breathing in to receive holy spirit. And it is also true they have retained their reverend titles - reverend of what? I wonder. And probably the most irritating aspect, which is the main reason I lost interest, is it's the same core group that do the teachings, teaching what they think everyone needs to hear.
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DontWorryBeHappy
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100016192807823
Here’s one of Frontczak’s most faithful followers. She and her 4 Barnard boys are very tied in to Markie and Grandma Jean. Jess Schweiss’ sisters and mom are having fun in MOGGIE Mark’s cult too! Just one big happy perverted Wayfer cult family with cartoons!! Funny to watch them carry on as if they were never responsible for assisting Victor Barnard in his sexual abuse and rape of 10 underage girls, including their own!! It’s good to be a cult leader, and the right hand enabler of one! Good food too!
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Raf
And we are naming/outing her because?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Because she is Barnard’s wife. She supported, promoted, assisted, and partook of the perverted fruit of his perverted way tree splinter in Finlayson, MN, Bellingham and Spokane, WA, and in Brazil. They still don’t think they did anything wrong! Just like with TWIt...... it’s ALL Victor’s fault!! They were just following God’s orders like Adolph Eichmann!
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skyrider
December 1978 Corps Letter
What was happening in December 1978? Why were clergy leaving twi?
Note: 1) The "great accuracy of the Word" and 2) the principles of The Way Ministry are interlocked !!
If you LEAVE twi......you LEAVE the word.
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Mark Sanguinetti
I agree with Raf on this. Using my own figurative and not literal language, to see if they have made or make a change, perhaps reach out with your hand like you would with a dog. Then look and see if they wag their tail, while listening to make sure they don’t growl or bark. If they growl or bark then simply walk away. If they wag their tail then perhaps either pet them or wag your tail also.
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Raf
Mark agrees with Raf.
Put it on your calendar.
We will celebrate the anniversary of this next year
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modcat5
DWBH: I am taking you at your word that the person you identified as Victor Barnard's wife is, in fact, his wife.
EDIT: This post originally appeared to be directed entirely at DWBH. That was my communication error, for which I take sole responsibility. The remainder of this post is directed at ALL USERS. Multiple user posts were deleted, INCLUDING MY OWN. DWBH did not deserve to have the entire post appear to be directed at him. I am deeply sorry. --modcat5, Raf.
Personal "calling out" of posters for being "friends" or "followers" on Facebook will not be tolerated on this site. To be clear, there are people who "like" and "follow" pages and identify as "friends" with people for the purpose of being able to keep track of what those people do and say on social media. It does NOT necessarily mean those people are actually "friends" or that the "follower" is indeed a follower of that person. I "follow" and monitor multiple people and campaigns that I do not endorse, either on a personal or especially on a professional level.
Multiple posts on this thread were deleted in their entirety. One was trimmed to eliminate what I consider to be a minor but significant infraction of our rules.
This thread is about its topic. Any future posts that are not on topic will be deleted. Not edited. Not trimmed. Not examined. Deleted.
Please do not transfer an argument from a previous thread, especially one where the offending comments have been deleted, onto other threads.
On a personal note: Dear friends are putting us in a position of having to take sides. We don't want to. But when it comes to GSC, we have ONE side: GSC. We will do what we must in the best interest of the site. If we err, we err. But it will NOT be out of disrespect for the mission, purpose and interest of GSC.
I hope and trust this is the last time moderators will need to intervene in this dispute.
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modcat5
FYI
http://www.fox9.com/news/investigators/wife-of-alleged-cult-leader-victor-barnard-files-for-divorce
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skyrider
Welcome back......
.........to the land of mere mortals.
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Twinky
Hmm, she did that in 2016, when he first appeared in court. Distancing herself. Closing the door after the horse has bolted, as it were. What, she only just found out about Vic's indiscretions?
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WordWolf
I suppose, in an absolute sense, that's true. In practice, however, I'd probably follow that behavior more with, say, one guy teaching the Bible in his living room than, say, the official head of some splinter organization. I'd be a LOT more leery of those. In an absolutist sense, perhaps one should consider they MAY not be the pride-blinded bloodsuckers that some of their peers are. At the same time, one should be prepared for the possibility that they interpret "Hello" as "Tell me about the latest thing for which you're charging money." (JAL's standard response when he's hawking Momentus under the table while he's denying he is, for example.) Then again, at my first twig meeting, I kept one eye on the door the entire time.
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waysider
Must have been the eye that doesn't see so well. We all have one.
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skyrider
In this figurative, hypothetical situation............several questions surface:
Frankly speaking......after 40 years in twi, maybe it's time to stay away from dogs.
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Infoabsorption
Years ago when VPW's indiscretions were starting to come out in the open, I remember hearing phrases like "I didn't like his flesh, but he sure could teach some hot Word". I guess it's the same with failed prophecies. A lot of these people admit VPW had weaknesses but they seem to justify their admiration of him by his ability to teach the "Word".
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modcat5
A statement I posted yesterday explaining action I took as a moderator inadvertently made it seem that only one person was the target. The target of the moderating action was an exchange, not a single poster.
We once again urge ALL posters to stay on topic.
Thank you.
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Lifted Up
I find it hard to accept "The Word" taught inor out of The Way, if it had its roots in, never mind how long ago or by whom or how good sounding and "non-cultic" the teaching. In The Way all looked down on anybody not from the Way who promoted Christ and I know that trend continues, Way or splinter. Just like Thw Way...and what was once my favorite restaurant...was founded "for the glory of God"....by prolific abusers and sexual assaulters...and rapists. Do any, Way or splinter, acknowledge that that happened without demeaning survivors?
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Kathy Niclaus
I do have something to say on this topic. In 1995, as part of an elaborate ruse to terminate communication between me and someone in another state who, unbeknownst to me at the time, was being abused by clergy, myself and my husband were asked to excuse ourselves from fellowship to put ourselves under the care of Bob Darnell, but then escalated to "not being welcome at the Way" by Ohio Limb Coordinator Dave Patterson under the most dubious of circumstances. We were totally blindsided, having not done anything unseemly at all. We would get information here and there as to what was going on, with each new doctrinal atrocity being taught absolutely flooring us. We even sat in our car for six nights on that road that Bob Wierwille lived on to listen to the ROA 95 teachings on AM radio, stunned. We lived in St. Mary's, and when someone from HQ would encounter us in public, they would run away on the other side of the street or another aisle in the store, with the exception of a very few people who obviously were not totally buying into Martindale's shiite.
Finally in Spring of 1996 word got to us that Martindale was talking crap about someone at Corps Night and that John Shroyer had enough and got up and walked out. Well, John was ordained and recognized as Corps but he never was in residence, and I had always admired him because he was to me always the epitome of a real pastor. A down to earth guy who took care of people, didn't preen and fawn, didn't flaunt and vaunt himself. He had been made to give up his great house in St Mary's that he had for years and sent to Florida, where really good close friends of mine raved about how well he cared for people. I was so glad that someone finally had the balls to stand up to the maniacal narcissist. I phoned John and he told me that Mike Magel, of Premiere Labels and Word in Business reknown, and Frank Connerty, of Prison Outreach had also been on Martindale's smack talking list, and gave me their numbers. It was great because Frank was right there in St. Mary's.
Well, as you know, those three guys started a splinter group, the topic of this thread. The group is the Christian Family Fellowship Ministry. But I was there from the very start, and I can tell you at the beginning it did not follow the track that John Lynn, and Vince Finnegan, and Dan Moran, and a lot of these other clowns took. For starters, it wasn't John's idea. He and had Maryann moved back to Ohio. At what point, I don't know- I don't know if they had already been called back when he walked out of the service, because I know that in August of 1996 Bob Moynihan sent out a monthly newsletter in Florida calling John a "Unfaithful Servant" because Gail Winegarner visited us in St. Mary's with his son Fritz and showed it to us. (Gail called Bless Patrol "The Gestapo.") John was working for a water softener company, selling water softener units. To my knowledge, he had always had a job for most of his life, even though he was ordained clergy.
Getting back on topic, it was Mike Magel's idea to start a ministry. Premiere Label was the label company he had sold (if memory serves) that he talked about at Word in Business in 1993. When the non-compete was fulfilled, he started another label company, Star Label. He told John that if John wanted to start a ministry, Mike would back him. John said let's just do a fellowship. So, a handful of us started meeting in the lunchroom Star Label every Sunday. We wanted it, there was no hard sell or coaxing. People were hurting because they were getting kicked out and abused left and right.
There was a book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church" by Jeff Van Vonderen that John recommended. It really summed up what The Way used to recruit, retain, and abuse followers, and the template is applicable to many types of abusive relationships.
Before you knew it, the lunch room was not big enough, a place had to be rented, and people from other states were constantly contacting John. Yes, they made the decision to incorporate, but they also made it flexible, so that if they needed to add or change, they would do it. I was an eyewitness for the first few years, and they definitely kept it real. Of course, my regular involvement predated before all the lurid details of VPW's sexual predation coming out; Kevin and Sarah Guigou first started coming around in late 1997. I was regularly active up until I divorced and left Ohio in February of 1999, when I went to New Jersey and then onto South Africa. After that, I would make it back whenever I was in the states for large scale events or visiting Ohio, getting down to the fellowship center that was built and dedicated in 1998, a modestly sized building.
My last visit was in 2006, after a five year absence, and having not seen John for four years since he had visited New Jersey. He passed away a few weeks later. Judging from the website, there seems to be more of an element of rigidity to the group now than there was when he was alive; I remember on the day of the dedication in 1998, him talking about that what was important was how a person lived, and treated other people, and so what if someone believed in the trinity. He said it was okay to believe in the trinity. He used to also make a point of saying it didn't matter if people didn't tithe, that it wasn't a requirement.
In 1998 he published a booklet titled "Compassion." something I used to gift people, something no one has ever complained about receiving, regardless of their religion. He also once suggested people read the book "In His Steps" Really, what John posited people do was so opposite of what had been indoctrinated by the Way, and a lot of the splinters. I can honestly say that with him, it was never about the money.
PS/Addendum: Hey, Michael Fort, if you ever come here to lurk, I just want you to know that every time I've ever heard Bob Dylan sing "Like A Rolling Stone" for the past 24 years, I thought of you, because I knew your day was going to come. And Oh, By the way, fornicate you.
Edited by Kathy NiclausA special shout out
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