So often these stories depend a great deal on the recipient's lack of knowledge of the terms that are being used. I glossed over all that stuff, not realizing how key it was in debunking this nonsense story.
The thing that sealed it for me was, the writer of the article did not consult a single doctor. Heaven only knows why he thought the article was worth writing, but he did and that's his call, and as publisher it is his right to print it. That doesn't make it credible.
Yes, the stomach contents DO actually infiltrate the lungs when clinical aspiration takes place. The obvious immediate threat is respiratory arrest, but the intubation quickly obviates that. The major concern for the patient post-aspiration is pneumonia and sepsis. Unfortunately common and definitely lethal. Aspiration means that the epiglottis, a thick, fibrous membrane flap separating the respiratory trachea from the upper GI tract into the stomach, has not functioned thereby allowing the gastric contents into the respiratory trachea and into the bronchi and then into the lungs themselves. Respiration is critically compromised. But NONE OF THAT causes the lungs or bronchi to “disintegrate”, which is not compatible with life. No intubation of any kind is possible if the bronchi and lungs are “disintegrated”, let alone, 15 days of intubated respiratory support without pneumonia or sepsis. As I said, the fake condition of “disintegrated lungs” is not compatible with human life.
[Personal information deleted by moderators]
The next time I heard about JJ was when MikePatten, 10th corpse, was briefly a STFI BOT member and had strong support from JJ at that time. There was the usual STFI “leadership” cluster...., and Schoenheit fired Patten along with his own sister and brother-in-law, and JJ ran with Patten and his offshoot for awhile. That’s the last I heard of him until his recent arrival a couple of years ago here at the GSC.
Since his arrival, I have watched his posting patterns and self-promoting posts with mild disgust, but this recent round of horsedang was just too much to allow him to remain “incognito”.
So, has he changed? IDK. I can only base my current opinion of him on his posting behavior here at GSC, since that is the only contact I have with him. And, based upon my past experiences with him, along with the current evidence of his thinking garnered from his posts here, I find him not credible. That is my opinion, WW. Thanks for asking.
I must say, I know neither of you two BUT, as soon as you mentioned you were a limb C0-0rd and 'they' had a 'dysfunctional marriage' that YOU had to 'sort out' has raised my doggy doo doo antennae...just going by past experiences of LEADERSHIP sorting out 'others' relationships. Your take on their marriage is supposed to be believed the same way you dismiss JJ's words ?
Allan..... your response to the FACTS of this “case” seems a bit biased to me. But, I could be overly concerned with FACTS I KNOW, which you don’t, and also my personal knowledge of the recurrent incidents of severe physical abuse. If you wish to excuse past Un-Christlike behavior as something in the far distant past which, unrepented of, remains a CURRENT issue, that is your prerogative. However, if you think I should adjust to your acceptance of this sinful behavior, you can be assured I WILL NOT. Facts are facts. Matthew 18 applies. Let’s see some “Word in action”!
Your history in TWI is fair game, as is DWBH's. We implore you both to keep real names out of it.
Your marriage history is not fair game. References have been deleted.
By the way: It's no longer a secret in these parts, but Modcat5=Raf. I try not to moderate conversations when I am a participant, generally, but I felt safe intervening here.
WW......pneumonia IS an infection of the lungs. It is inflammation and infection (viral or bacterial) of the pleural sac and membrane which surrounds the lungs. It doesn’t “cause an infection”, it IS one. It produces purulent drainage which invades and compromises the lung tissue. Sometimes this pus must be physically drained via thoracentesis. Respirators do not “prevent” pneumonia nor do they “treat it”. Respirators supply the mechanics of breathing in order to support life. Antibiotics, specialized respiratory therapy techniques, and thoracentesis or surgery may be necessary to treat pneumonia, not merely the life support equipment necessary to allow the treatments time to work. Hope that clarifies it for you a little more.
I'm sorry to bring this up since it's unrelated to the main thread, but now I'm trying to figure something out for a personal reason, which, I'm sure, you can see.
When I was laid up in the hospital with broken ribs (and other fun injuries), I was breathing shallowly due to having broken ribs. The doctors said that I had to breathe more deeply because the shallow breathing was causing me to get fluid in the lungs and pneumonia. So, I had to breathe deeper to get rid of that. I even had to practice with a "spirometer" that looked like a toy and measured how hard I was inhaling if I inhaled through it.
Perhaps the doctors were in error or explaining poorly. They were in a city hospital, which, for reasons unclear to me, my parents insisted on keeping me in (even though the party at fault was paying for the hospital stay so we didn't have to worry about the cost- and lied to me about, promising I would be transferred for several days.) With all of those in mind:
A) Were the doctors describing something incorrectly, whether to "dumb it down" or out of simple incompetence?
B) If true, was my deeper breathing getting rid of pneumonia and preventing more? If so, doesn't a machine that breathes for a coma patient ALSO prevent pneumonia the same way?
C) Was my treatment a sign of general incompetence all around and they thought I was cared for, or does it look like my parents really didn't mind I was getting bad care?
(Ok, that last one isn't a medical question, but I am curious how it looks to a neutral party. Some of my injuries were never even LOOKED AT, let alone treated. I finally got them treated a few years ago, and felt 10 years younger.)
Not speaking for DWBH, because I don't have anything close to his medical related background, but to this layman, my guess would be that the docs were taking huge leaps in explaining the situation to you thinking that without burdening you with the explanation of the technical aspects of the disease, all they really wanted was to motivate you to try harder to breathe deeply. Because regardless of the mechanism for the healing, the deep breathing was a necessary factor.
Btw, I have had broken ribs and know the pain that prevents a person from wanting to breathe deeply. My broken rib tore into the pleural sac and eventually I had to go to the ER because I could hardly breathe. After even getting a chest tube for drainage didn't help, I had to have a thoracotomy so the docs could cauterize the tear. I ended up spending more than a week in the hospital.
So often these stories depend a great deal on the recipient's lack of knowledge of the terms that are being used. I glossed over all that stuff, not realizing how key it was in debunking this nonsense story.
The thing that sealed it for me was, the writer of the article did not consult a single doctor. Heaven only knows why he thought the article was worth writing, but he did and that's his call, and as publisher it is his right to print it. That doesn't make it credible.
The lack of consulting anyone at the hospital- no doctor, no clerk with access to the records, no nurse who treated the patient- makes this newspaper article of the same caliber as the articles in the "Weekly World News" about Batboy. All unconfirmed quotes, all accounts of what someone said, with no attempts to find out if they're mistaken, lying, deluded, etc. IIRC, my high school newspaper was held to better standards- I know my college newspaper was.
It is possible that in the stress of the situation you were in, that you may have misunderstood medical information given to you quickly in an emergent situation. Broken ribs are very difficult to treat. #1 issue to be addressed is pain. #2 is incentive spirometry in order to PREVENT pneumonia, not TREAT it. Without adequate pain control, incentive spirometry is compromised. Problems? Broken ribs cannot be “casted” or mechanically repaired. The pain with inhalation, coughing, laughing, can be debilitating. Unfortunately, the number one side effect of the narcotic analgesics necessary to treat the pain is respiratory depression, i.e. shallow breathing with a low respiratory rate. So, the incentive spirometry, which is basically therapeutic exercise, is most important in preventing pneumonia, as is ambulation as soon as possible.
As for question C, from your account of your care, it does not appear to me to have been incompetent. As to whether or not your parents “really didn’t care that you were getting bad care”, I really can’t speak to that in any clinically proper manner since I never met or knew them. Hope the helps clarify things a bit more for you. I do not mind your questions at all.
I understood what they SAID just fine. They didn't address my pain at all. In fact, they had me sit up in the ER to take chest x-rays, even though I was partly in shock and unable to sit still for the x-rays because I was in so much pain. (They had to try more than once, and I recall the tech sounding indignant at having to work for it and insisting I sit up and sit still, and I remember the pain- which cut through the shock enough that I recall the tech.) After my processing, they did nothing for the pain. When I proved unable to sleep by lying completely still on my back in a room where babies cried every 2 hours and people came about every 2 hours to take a blood sample. they allowed me up to 3 shots so I could sleep. I was allowed up to 3 because they were potentially addictive, so I supposedly had the option not to take all 3. The first night, I had one and slept. The 2nd night, I had the 2nd at the same time and slept. The 3rd night, my body had the idea and was falling asleep by itself without any request for a shot. I was woken up by a nurse giving me the shot I neither requested nor needed, and watching a family member just sorta stare blankly rather than tell them to back off. That's the entire amount of "pain management" I had in the place. I had to handle the rest myself.
My broken ribs were "treated" by leaving them alone and letting them knit entirely by themselves- which they did. My head injury was watched and someone checked that I didn't sound like I'd lost 100 IQ points or something. My spinal injury (the actual first injury) was completely ignored, and was completely untreated. (That had consequences that dogged me for DECADES, and I was of the impression I had head injuries that were permanent and untreatable. No, almost all of it was spinal injuries that were COMPLETELY treatable- and would have been paid for by the responsible party if anyone had bothered to check.)
My "incentive spirometry" was definitely compromised by a lot of pain. I was told to do it and ignore the pain. I was definitely told there was already an EXISTING problem with a build-up in my lungs that was causing pneumonia, caused by shallow breathing and treatable by non-shallow breathing. My ambulation was impaired by extensive spinal misalignment, which threw my sense of balance off greatly. With lots of practice, I learned to compensate for the loss of equilibrium and use my sense of sight more to determine balance. One year of chiropractic treatments many years later, and the results were dramatic. (I felt 10 years younger and healthier.) Oh, when I wanted to try to walk, I wanted some kind of stick I could ground to balance myself if I felt dizzy and had to stand still. The hospital refused to OK that, and my family refused to get something. Imagine my surprise years later when I found out I could freaking go into any good pharmacy and buy a stick cheaply, with some even selling foldable things. My biggest concern- which slowed my walking- was falling down and re-injuring my ribs. Somehow, nobody seemed to think this was a credible risk. (Except my roommate, who lent me a crutch so I could carry it around and plant it as soon as I felt dizzy, so I could actually practice walking again.)
Incentive to getting out, to me, was more a matter of "I have to get well enough to get out before these stooges injure me further" than anything else. If that was the intent of the care, then it succeeded, but I think that was an unintended side-effect. For me, the moral of this story is that city hospitals (and especially Jacobi Hospital) are just plain awful places if you really care about the person receiving treatment. I've heard other horror stories about other city hospitals from people who were forced to spend time in them.
Recently, while at a fleamarket of all places , I got into a conversation with an older (mid 70's) couple, as he shared with me how he had died..went to heaven & l5 days later had come back alive..this happened, according to him nearly 8 years ago, as his wife basically refused to bury him & believed that "by his stripes, we were healed" & stood on that..combined with prayer etc..
So out of curiosity..does anyone out there have any thoughts on this subject, as I know of several Near Death Experiences on youtube, but this one in particular "lives" here in my little Florida town & is quite willing to answer any questions regarding the event.. Perhaps this subject has already been discussed, but if not..what cha think??
JJ, I think it's Bullsheet!! Believe what you want; I personally think when people die, they die. What bar were you in, when he told you this tall tales??
Pretty interesting stuff. Great context from the journalistic and medical folks. While I do not discount out of hand claims of miraculous events, I am a skeptic and my mind usually scans the horizon for mundane explanations. A believer will often scan for supernatural explanations. And the nature of that supernatural explanation will usually depend on the predetermined mindset. A Christian might interpret a certain event as God's intervention, a new-age type might credit Reiki, a guy I once knew would almost certainly point to aliens! That voice that you think you hear, or that feeling you have? Jesus, Allah, Krishna, HAL from 2001, too much of your favorite recreational drug?
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Raf
Jim, if you have the date of the story, the name of the paper, and the names of anyone ANYONE involved (like, say, the person who wrote the story), I can hunt it down. This is not.hard.at.all.
waysider
Fifteen days, huh? Those sound like some awesome mushrooms.
HAPe4me
I am not skeptical, I do not believe a bit of it. By that time the human body is well along into the putrefying process. This story is full of gas and smells like the body would have.
Raf
So often these stories depend a great deal on the recipient's lack of knowledge of the terms that are being used. I glossed over all that stuff, not realizing how key it was in debunking this nonsense story.
The thing that sealed it for me was, the writer of the article did not consult a single doctor. Heaven only knows why he thought the article was worth writing, but he did and that's his call, and as publisher it is his right to print it. That doesn't make it credible.
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Allan
I must say, I know neither of you two BUT, as soon as you mentioned you were a limb C0-0rd and 'they' had a 'dysfunctional marriage' that YOU had to 'sort out' has raised my doggy doo doo antennae...just going by past experiences of LEADERSHIP sorting out 'others' relationships. Your take on their marriage is supposed to be believed the same way you dismiss JJ's words ?
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DontWorryBeHappy
Allan..... your response to the FACTS of this “case” seems a bit biased to me. But, I could be overly concerned with FACTS I KNOW, which you don’t, and also my personal knowledge of the recurrent incidents of severe physical abuse. If you wish to excuse past Un-Christlike behavior as something in the far distant past which, unrepented of, remains a CURRENT issue, that is your prerogative. However, if you think I should adjust to your acceptance of this sinful behavior, you can be assured I WILL NOT. Facts are facts. Matthew 18 applies. Let’s see some “Word in action”!
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modcat5
I'm not comfortable with disclosing the personal histories of posters unless THEY choose to disclose them.
Same goes for real names.
Please be discrete with people's personal information.
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jim jack
too late now Modcat
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modcat5
Your history in TWI is fair game, as is DWBH's. We implore you both to keep real names out of it.
Your marriage history is not fair game. References have been deleted.
By the way: It's no longer a secret in these parts, but Modcat5=Raf. I try not to moderate conversations when I am a participant, generally, but I felt safe intervening here.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Thank you Raf and Modgellan.
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WordWolf
I'm sorry to bring this up since it's unrelated to the main thread, but now I'm trying to figure something out for a personal reason, which, I'm sure, you can see.
When I was laid up in the hospital with broken ribs (and other fun injuries), I was breathing shallowly due to having broken ribs. The doctors said that I had to breathe more deeply because the shallow breathing was causing me to get fluid in the lungs and pneumonia. So, I had to breathe deeper to get rid of that. I even had to practice with a "spirometer" that looked like a toy and measured how hard I was inhaling if I inhaled through it.
Perhaps the doctors were in error or explaining poorly. They were in a city hospital, which, for reasons unclear to me, my parents insisted on keeping me in (even though the party at fault was paying for the hospital stay so we didn't have to worry about the cost- and lied to me about, promising I would be transferred for several days.) With all of those in mind:
A) Were the doctors describing something incorrectly, whether to "dumb it down" or out of simple incompetence?
B) If true, was my deeper breathing getting rid of pneumonia and preventing more? If so, doesn't a machine that breathes for a coma patient ALSO prevent pneumonia the same way?
C) Was my treatment a sign of general incompetence all around and they thought I was cared for, or does it look like my parents really didn't mind I was getting bad care?
(Ok, that last one isn't a medical question, but I am curious how it looks to a neutral party. Some of my injuries were never even LOOKED AT, let alone treated. I finally got them treated a few years ago, and felt 10 years younger.)
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Rocky
Not speaking for DWBH, because I don't have anything close to his medical related background, but to this layman, my guess would be that the docs were taking huge leaps in explaining the situation to you thinking that without burdening you with the explanation of the technical aspects of the disease, all they really wanted was to motivate you to try harder to breathe deeply. Because regardless of the mechanism for the healing, the deep breathing was a necessary factor.
Edited by RockyBtw, I have had broken ribs and know the pain that prevents a person from wanting to breathe deeply. My broken rib tore into the pleural sac and eventually I had to go to the ER because I could hardly breathe. After even getting a chest tube for drainage didn't help, I had to have a thoracotomy so the docs could cauterize the tear. I ended up spending more than a week in the hospital.
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WordWolf
The lack of consulting anyone at the hospital- no doctor, no clerk with access to the records, no nurse who treated the patient- makes this newspaper article of the same caliber as the articles in the "Weekly World News" about Batboy. All unconfirmed quotes, all accounts of what someone said, with no attempts to find out if they're mistaken, lying, deluded, etc. IIRC, my high school newspaper was held to better standards- I know my college newspaper was.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi WW!
It is possible that in the stress of the situation you were in, that you may have misunderstood medical information given to you quickly in an emergent situation. Broken ribs are very difficult to treat. #1 issue to be addressed is pain. #2 is incentive spirometry in order to PREVENT pneumonia, not TREAT it. Without adequate pain control, incentive spirometry is compromised. Problems? Broken ribs cannot be “casted” or mechanically repaired. The pain with inhalation, coughing, laughing, can be debilitating. Unfortunately, the number one side effect of the narcotic analgesics necessary to treat the pain is respiratory depression, i.e. shallow breathing with a low respiratory rate. So, the incentive spirometry, which is basically therapeutic exercise, is most important in preventing pneumonia, as is ambulation as soon as possible.
As for question C, from your account of your care, it does not appear to me to have been incompetent. As to whether or not your parents “really didn’t care that you were getting bad care”, I really can’t speak to that in any clinically proper manner since I never met or knew them. Hope the helps clarify things a bit more for you. I do not mind your questions at all.
Edited by DontWorryBeHappySpelling
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WordWolf
I understood what they SAID just fine. They didn't address my pain at all. In fact, they had me sit up in the ER to take chest x-rays, even though I was partly in shock and unable to sit still for the x-rays because I was in so much pain. (They had to try more than once, and I recall the tech sounding indignant at having to work for it and insisting I sit up and sit still, and I remember the pain- which cut through the shock enough that I recall the tech.) After my processing, they did nothing for the pain. When I proved unable to sleep by lying completely still on my back in a room where babies cried every 2 hours and people came about every 2 hours to take a blood sample. they allowed me up to 3 shots so I could sleep. I was allowed up to 3 because they were potentially addictive, so I supposedly had the option not to take all 3. The first night, I had one and slept. The 2nd night, I had the 2nd at the same time and slept. The 3rd night, my body had the idea and was falling asleep by itself without any request for a shot. I was woken up by a nurse giving me the shot I neither requested nor needed, and watching a family member just sorta stare blankly rather than tell them to back off. That's the entire amount of "pain management" I had in the place. I had to handle the rest myself.
My broken ribs were "treated" by leaving them alone and letting them knit entirely by themselves- which they did. My head injury was watched and someone checked that I didn't sound like I'd lost 100 IQ points or something. My spinal injury (the actual first injury) was completely ignored, and was completely untreated. (That had consequences that dogged me for DECADES, and I was of the impression I had head injuries that were permanent and untreatable. No, almost all of it was spinal injuries that were COMPLETELY treatable- and would have been paid for by the responsible party if anyone had bothered to check.)
My "incentive spirometry" was definitely compromised by a lot of pain. I was told to do it and ignore the pain. I was definitely told there was already an EXISTING problem with a build-up in my lungs that was causing pneumonia, caused by shallow breathing and treatable by non-shallow breathing. My ambulation was impaired by extensive spinal misalignment, which threw my sense of balance off greatly. With lots of practice, I learned to compensate for the loss of equilibrium and use my sense of sight more to determine balance. One year of chiropractic treatments many years later, and the results were dramatic. (I felt 10 years younger and healthier.) Oh, when I wanted to try to walk, I wanted some kind of stick I could ground to balance myself if I felt dizzy and had to stand still. The hospital refused to OK that, and my family refused to get something. Imagine my surprise years later when I found out I could freaking go into any good pharmacy and buy a stick cheaply, with some even selling foldable things. My biggest concern- which slowed my walking- was falling down and re-injuring my ribs. Somehow, nobody seemed to think this was a credible risk. (Except my roommate, who lent me a crutch so I could carry it around and plant it as soon as I felt dizzy, so I could actually practice walking again.)
Incentive to getting out, to me, was more a matter of "I have to get well enough to get out before these stooges injure me further" than anything else. If that was the intent of the care, then it succeeded, but I think that was an unintended side-effect. For me, the moral of this story is that city hospitals (and especially Jacobi Hospital) are just plain awful places if you really care about the person receiving treatment. I've heard other horror stories about other city hospitals from people who were forced to spend time in them.
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jim jack
Thanks Allen...I've learned much in reading these replies as thankfully God is my judge....your antennae show wisdom my friend
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Grace Valerie Claire
JJ, I think it's Bullsheet!! Believe what you want; I personally think when people die, they die. What bar were you in, when he told you this tall tales??
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Oakspear
Pretty interesting stuff. Great context from the journalistic and medical folks. While I do not discount out of hand claims of miraculous events, I am a skeptic and my mind usually scans the horizon for mundane explanations. A believer will often scan for supernatural explanations. And the nature of that supernatural explanation will usually depend on the predetermined mindset. A Christian might interpret a certain event as God's intervention, a new-age type might credit Reiki, a guy I once knew would almost certainly point to aliens! That voice that you think you hear, or that feeling you have? Jesus, Allah, Krishna, HAL from 2001, too much of your favorite recreational drug?
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