Okay I found it. The thing is it's a spiral, typed book, with no year in it. I'm going to attempt to post a pic. I hope this works. I am also going to email my buddy who sent it to me and find out if he can tell me what year this might be. Let me know if you can't see the pic
Wow, I wish he'd actually asserted his copyright. Could've stopped VPW in his tracks. Could've saved a lot of us a lot of grief. But I know God can turn lemons into lemonade, and we can benefit now from what we can accept at BGL's work - and be thankful for BGL (as opposed to plagiarisers).
Looks like BGL was concerned at two aspects: (1), unauthorised copying and flagrant passing off of written material; and (2) "others" making audio and video tapes. Maybe more than just VPW was plagiarising.
Is this that same BG Leonard? Founder of Christian Training Center of Brownsville, Texas? Them as runs a "Gifts of the Spirit" class? "Rev. B.G. Leonard’s full two week Gifts of the Spirit Course. The revelation of which God gave to Rev. B. G. Leonard over 80 years ago. The understanding from God’s Holy Word and also how to properly apply these truths unto the fulfilling of the ministry that God has ordained every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ to walk in and fulfill."
It's not a brilliant website, lots of grammatical errors, but it's an interesting site to root around. See how many similarities you can spot in the titles of classes/courses you can spot, mostly attributed to the late BGL! (All tapes/MP3 available for "donations," of course.)
Is this that same BG Leonard? Founder of Christian Training Center of Brownsville, Texas? Them as runs a "Gifts of the Spirit" class? "Rev. B.G. Leonard’s full two week Gifts of the Spirit Course. The revelation of which God gave to Rev. B. G. Leonard over 80 years ago. The understanding from God’s Holy Word and also how to properly apply these truths unto the fulfilling of the ministry that God has ordained every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ to walk in and fulfill."
It's not a brilliant website, lots of grammatical errors, but it's an interesting site to root around. See how many similarities you can spot in the titles of classes/courses you can spot, mostly attributed to the late BGL! (All tapes/MP3 available for "donations," of course.)
You are welcome Twinky! And yes that website is BG's ministry. My friend says he's not sure when this copy was made. He did say that by the reference to putting them on audio and/or video cassettes would date it after the Advanced Class, in the early to mid 1980s. He said every manifestation definition was plagiarized, so from the time the Foundation and Intermediate classes were video taped, this would have been in the mid 1970s.
He also said that VP was being interviews by TWI's historian (Pam something) he was asked what he did with all his notes from years of researching. VP said "I burned all my notes, all of them" Nobody bought this since the guy kept his basketball jersey, everything, like he was history in the making.
He said those who took BG's class, including Dale Sides and others, would know more when BG was first aware of it at all. He said BG was an obscure person easily taken advantage of by VP. Who would ever find out?
I found it interesting that everyone in the 13th Corps (can't speak for others) was given a copy of Bullinger's HOW TO ENJOY THE BIBLE in September of our first year in-residence. I remember slowly reading through most of it during that year. It was amazing to me how very much of PFAL was taken from there.
Yeh, I remember How to Enjoy the Bible Doglover, it was a very good book of Bullinger's, I got a copy shortly after taking PFAL the first time in '68, along with one of the early hard bound Companion Bibles, a huge book that was cheaper than the leather bound, which I got later. There was also a set of tapes the Way did titled "How to Enjoy the Bible", with a lot of the parts taught by Walter Cummins, and VPW, if memory serves. It was basically a shorter rehash of the book..I know because the Way West had a copy of them and my wife and I got them after we were married in '71 and listened to them off and on over the next month. HTETBible really did have most of the study and "research" methods taught in PFAL. It was a very good book, and one I used to recommend people get after they took PFAL.
Edited by socks "You may find that having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. This is not logical, but it is often true."
You are welcome Twinky! And yes that website is BG's ministry. My friend says he's not sure when this copy was made. He did say that by the reference to putting them on audio and/or video cassettes would date it after the Advanced Class, in the early to mid 1980s. He said every manifestation definition was plagiarized, so from the time the Foundation and Intermediate classes were video taped, this would have been in the mid 1970s.
He also said that VP was being interviews by TWI's historian (Pam something) he was asked what he did with all his notes from years of researching. VP said "I burned all my notes, all of them" Nobody bought this since the guy kept his basketball jersey, everything, like he was history in the making.
He said those who took BG's class, including Dale Sides and others, would know more when BG was first aware of it at all. He said BG was an obscure person easily taken advantage of by VP. Who would ever find out?
vpw covered his tracks nicely at the time. BGL was a legit Christian who didn't "think evil" of other Christians (and was a Canadian and not, say, a paranoid NY'er who might double-check things.) vpw found out about Leonard's class, and-according to vpw- found out one was in progress and he couldn't join it since it had already started. He proceeded directly there and basically parked himself until BG relented and let him join. So, vpw "graduated" that class. He took it again a few months later, along with a handful of other people, including Mrs W. vpw was considered a "grad" who was retaking it.
Then, a few months later, vpw asked Leonard to ok him running Leonard's class once, locally. Leonard agreed. vpw sent Leonard a photo of the grads of "Leonard's" class.
What vpw told all the students was that this was vpw's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". (No syllabus or diagrams, this was a few months later.) All the people who had taken Leonard's class were already considered "GRADS" of THIS class by vpw himself. That's because it was the same class, just taught by someone else.
Later, vpw added Bullinger and Stiles and split the class into 3 different classes that people had to pay for.
Some time later, Leonard found out vpw continued to teach Leonard's material AS HIS OWN.
BTW, a poster here once took Leonard's class while Leonard was teaching it. He also looked through Leonard's photo album of his classes, and found the photo vpw sent him. He got Leonard's side of things from him at the time. vpw's claims were documented in Mrs W's book, which says the grads of Leonard's class were considered grads of this one. It doesn't say "this is the same class, plagiarized", but what it DOES say makes that pretty clear.
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material?His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here.Why is that?
I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972.I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already.
***
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member.
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation.
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was.There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.
Slice it six ways to Sunday, Mike. Plagiarism is wrong and it's illegal. VP knew that. He did it anyway.
"I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was.There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way."
This doesn't speak well of your ability to trust in God.
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material?His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here.Why is that?
I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972.I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already.
***
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member.
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation.
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was.There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.
It would be selfish of me, Mike, to say we've missed you. If you don't have time to be involved here at GSC, so be it.
However, two things. One is that Vic's words on his plagiarism HAVE been cited at GSC. Repeatedly. Two, that your source regarding your interpretation of BGL's relationship with Vic, and what BGL may have said to a sixth corpse clergy member is dubious at best. I highly doubt that you'll "verify" anything that was told to you by such a source.
One of the characteristics of the cult of VPW was the prevalence of dubious narcissistic myths. Someone would start a conversation (rumor) and it would get passed along with ZERO critical analysis as if it was god's honest truth. Very quickly, it would become the unquestioned God-breathed Word.
That's the social model your claim seems to fit. If it's not YOUR first hand observation, it's likely BS.
It would be selfish of me, Mike, to say we've missed you. If you don't have time to be involved here at GSC, so be it.
However, two things. One is that Vic's words on his plagiarism HAVE been cited at GSC. Repeatedly. Two, that your source regarding your interpretation of BGL's relationship with Vic, and what BGL may have said to a sixth corpse clergy member is dubious at best. I highly doubt that you'll "verify" anything that was told to you by such a source.
One of the characteristics of the cult of VPW was the prevalence of dubious narcissistic myths. Someone would start a conversation (rumor) and it would get passed along with ZERO critical analysis as if it was god's honest truth. Very quickly, it would become the unquestioned God-breathed Word.
That's the social model your claim seems to fit. If it's not YOUR first hand observation, it's likely BS.
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material?His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here.Why is that?
I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972.I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was.There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.
I vaguely remember hearing about B.G.L.'s visit to an R.O.A. years ago. Heard that BG was not treated very kindly there. Your comment about BG rebuking TWI about wrong teaching at the 1985 ROA is interesting. The erroneous teaching may have been just one of the reasons BG showed up there. Did BG intend to confront TWI for the doctrinal errors and also plagiarism? That page attached to BG's book has VPW written all over it. The Way was damned for a lot more than wrong teaching about gifts of the Spirit.
For those arriving late, this is Mike. He said that when Jesus returns, he will be holding a copy of the Orange Book in his hand and will be teaching you from it. He confirmed this was NOT a joke, and that he'd "seen him many times this way." He also has a proven record of rewriting the contents of events at the GSC as well as twi. To be brief, he thinks that "vpw's" books and other reading material have replaced the Bible. Let's see what he's on about today.
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material? His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here. Why is that?
[That's because it was irrelevant to the discussion. However, I'll humor you in the interest of completeness. Among all the plagiarism where vpw made out that he was working with God Almighty only and nobody else, and places like the introduction to the Orange Book where vpw said exactly that, there was a single book with a single comment made in it. For people who had access to a copy of "the Way-Living in Love", and made it about 200 pages in, there was a passing comment by vpw.]
"Nothing I do is original. Putting it together in this format-that was the original part."
[That sole statement has been creatively interpreted by a handful of people- all people who insist vpw had a special connection to God Almighty- to mean that vpw was admitting that he was ripping off the work of others. It is nothing of the kind. It is a casual comment, rather vague, about not being original. It said nothing about taking Leonard's work and passing it off as his own, Stiles' work and passing it off as his own, and so on. In fact, vpw took Stiles' book oh the Holy Spirit and retyped it, then rephrased some words in later editions, to conceal that it was plagiarized from Stiles (with Bullinger inserted in the Appendices.) In the first few editions, the intro said that vpw "FOUND" a man who taught hm the Holy Spirit field, and in the later editions, vpw rephrased it so that he and he ALONE figured all this out. It's all a CONSISTENT case of INTENTIONAL plagiarism. vpw definitely did his best to pass off the work of others as his own work. ]
I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
[This irrelevant comment has been mentioned many times on this subject- and has been raised by myself more than once. Naturally, Mike never remembers that little detail. It's rewritten, just as what the comment actually MEANS was rewritten. And it "dampens" nothing. There's also no "theories." There's a very clear trail showing vpw plagiarized and did his best to hide his tracks. So, he knew what he was doing was wrong, and did it anyway.
For those wondering, we've heard "vpw didn't plagiarize", and "God told him to plagiarize" and a few other little things that a handful of people might actually believe to this day. However, they're dying out of old age. Very few kids are buying this tripe.]
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972. I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
[It was "widely distributed" in that one book, buried more than 100 pages in. It also was no great "discovery." It was posted, and as many as 4 posters claimed it had significance.]
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already.
[Mike's definitely written a lot here. When asked, he's never actually GOTTEN TO A POINT. Mike's style is to drop oblique comments, make vague statements, claim he knows more than he's telling, then get offended when either nobody cares, or they get irritated he could spend pages and pages to say he didn't have time to address even ONE direct question. (Lots of time to post filler, not one paragraph of substance.]
***
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member.
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation.
[There was an account posted here of someone meeting BGL when he appeared on campus. Leonard flipped out when he heard rock and roll (by Takit) played on campus. He claimed it was the devil's music. ]
"This ministry will not stand! It cannot stand! That music is the music of Baal! This ministry is going to fall!"
""Sir! This ministry will fall down because of idolatry, you mark my words!"
[More than one person recalled his reaction to that rock music. Absolutely NOTHING was posted about Leonard angry that vpw changed "gift" to "manifestation." That's the kind of ridiculous story that's made up to try to make someone look incompetent or some sort of crank. Here, it looks like someone invented it to try to make Leonard look bad- so they could try to say vpw was better or at least of the same calibre.]
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
[In those few steps, we go from "Leonard thought rock music was the devil's music" to "Leonard objected to minutiae about the class but was fine with it otherwise" to "Leonard was angry vpw didn't rip him off more precisely." That was fast. And we can all see how we got there. Why did we get there? It's all to try to preserve the fable that vpw was a legitimate minister and even more- an exceptional minister. Some people have made that a cornerstone of their lives (a few), and there's no reasoning with them.]
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
[Steve S@nn invited Leonard , according to accounts. This "much closer relationship" has just been manufactured in front of you.]
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
[Sorry, but there was more than 1 poster who said that, and their accounts agreed. Yours did not. Also, you're not "simply trying to verify". You put forth your claim about this ersatz "relationship" and hoped people would buy it. Let's be honest.]
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was. There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.
[Leonard was of the temperament to empower existing men of God to make them more effective for God Almighty. He was successful enough that- in pre-internet days- his simple class had gotten international attention (that's how vpw found out- people in the US writing about Leonard.) Leonard didn't think of it as "HIS REVELATIONS" either- which is why he just did the work and didn't focus on getting his name around the world.
Frankly, if left alone, Leonard would have kept teaching full-steam, and either a minister he taught would have been sent by God to the hippies, or one of those called by God AMONG the hippies would have taken Leonard's class, and that's all it would have taken. Supposing that Leonard's class was the be-all and end-all you're imagining pfal was.]
Slice it six ways to Sunday, Mike. Plagiarism is wrong and it's illegal. VP knew that. He did it anyway.
"I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was.There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way."
This doesn't speak well of your ability to trust in God.
[I think it's not an exaggeration to say that Mike doesn't trust in God working outside of the vpw or Mikean systems. It's why he invented the Mikean system.]
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penworks
Good morning. If you are not a subscriber to my blogs and are interested in my two-part interview with Ralph Dubofsky regarding his first-hand experience of discovering plagiarism that Victor Pau
WordWolf
"Saul and the Witch of Endor- Did the Dead Rise at Her Bidding?" "The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" Both by Bullinger, pretty much rewritten as the contents of 'ADAN?" T
WordWolf
"King Saul and the Witch of Endor- did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?" "The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" The latter is here- https://philologos.org/__eb-rml/
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RottieGrrrl
Okay I found it. The thing is it's a spiral, typed book, with no year in it. I'm going to attempt to post a pic. I hope this works. I am also going to email my buddy who sent it to me and find out if he can tell me what year this might be. Let me know if you can't see the pic
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RottieGrrrl
Sorry it's so big and sideways. I suck at this and don't know how to make it smaller.
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Twinky
Wow, I wish he'd actually asserted his copyright. Could've stopped VPW in his tracks. Could've saved a lot of us a lot of grief. But I know God can turn lemons into lemonade, and we can benefit now from what we can accept at BGL's work - and be thankful for BGL (as opposed to plagiarisers).
Looks like BGL was concerned at two aspects: (1), unauthorised copying and flagrant passing off of written material; and (2) "others" making audio and video tapes. Maybe more than just VPW was plagiarising.
Thanks for posting that, Rottie.
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Twinky
Is this that same BG Leonard? Founder of Christian Training Center of Brownsville, Texas? Them as runs a "Gifts of the Spirit" class? "Rev. B.G. Leonard’s full two week Gifts of the Spirit Course. The revelation of which God gave to Rev. B. G. Leonard over 80 years ago. The understanding from God’s Holy Word and also how to properly apply these truths unto the fulfilling of the ministry that God has ordained every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ to walk in and fulfill."
http://130.211.175.175/~ctcoftex/wordpress/index.php/about/
It's not a brilliant website, lots of grammatical errors, but it's an interesting site to root around. See how many similarities you can spot in the titles of classes/courses you can spot, mostly attributed to the late BGL! (All tapes/MP3 available for "donations," of course.)
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Rocky
That would seem to be the same BG Leonard.
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RottieGrrrl
You are welcome Twinky! And yes that website is BG's ministry. My friend says he's not sure when this copy was made. He did say that by the reference to putting them on audio and/or video cassettes would date it after the Advanced Class, in the early to mid 1980s. He said every manifestation definition was plagiarized, so from the time the Foundation and Intermediate classes were video taped, this would have been in the mid 1970s.
He also said that VP was being interviews by TWI's historian (Pam something) he was asked what he did with all his notes from years of researching. VP said "I burned all my notes, all of them" Nobody bought this since the guy kept his basketball jersey, everything, like he was history in the making.
He said those who took BG's class, including Dale Sides and others, would know more when BG was first aware of it at all. He said BG was an obscure person easily taken advantage of by VP. Who would ever find out?
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DogLover
I found it interesting that everyone in the 13th Corps (can't speak for others) was given a copy of Bullinger's HOW TO ENJOY THE BIBLE in September of our first year in-residence. I remember slowly reading through most of it during that year. It was amazing to me how very much of PFAL was taken from there.
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socks
Yeh, I remember How to Enjoy the Bible Doglover, it was a very good book of Bullinger's, I got a copy shortly after taking PFAL the first time in '68, along with one of the early hard bound Companion Bibles, a huge book that was cheaper than the leather bound, which I got later. There was also a set of tapes the Way did titled "How to Enjoy the Bible", with a lot of the parts taught by Walter Cummins, and VPW, if memory serves. It was basically a shorter rehash of the book..I know because the Way West had a copy of them and my wife and I got them after we were married in '71 and listened to them off and on over the next month. HTETBible really did have most of the study and "research" methods taught in PFAL. It was a very good book, and one I used to recommend people get after they took PFAL.
Edited by socks"You may find that having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. This is not logical, but it is often true."
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WordWolf
vpw covered his tracks nicely at the time. BGL was a legit Christian who didn't "think evil" of other Christians (and was a Canadian and not, say, a paranoid NY'er who might double-check things.) vpw found out about Leonard's class, and-according to vpw- found out one was in progress and he couldn't join it since it had already started. He proceeded directly there and basically parked himself until BG relented and let him join. So, vpw "graduated" that class. He took it again a few months later, along with a handful of other people, including Mrs W. vpw was considered a "grad" who was retaking it.
Then, a few months later, vpw asked Leonard to ok him running Leonard's class once, locally. Leonard agreed. vpw sent Leonard a photo of the grads of "Leonard's" class.
What vpw told all the students was that this was vpw's class on "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". (No syllabus or diagrams, this was a few months later.) All the people who had taken Leonard's class were already considered "GRADS" of THIS class by vpw himself. That's because it was the same class, just taught by someone else.
Later, vpw added Bullinger and Stiles and split the class into 3 different classes that people had to pay for.
Some time later, Leonard found out vpw continued to teach Leonard's material AS HIS OWN.
BTW, a poster here once took Leonard's class while Leonard was teaching it. He also looked through Leonard's photo album of his classes, and found the photo vpw sent him. He got Leonard's side of things from him at the time. vpw's claims were documented in Mrs W's book, which says the grads of Leonard's class were considered grads of this one. It doesn't say "this is the same class, plagiarized", but what it DOES say makes that pretty clear.
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Mike
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material? His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here. Why is that?I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972. I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already.
***
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member.
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation.
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was. There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.Link to comment
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Don't forget VPW added EW Kenyon's books to PFAL
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waysider
Slice it six ways to Sunday, Mike. Plagiarism is wrong and it's illegal. VP knew that. He did it anyway.
"I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was. There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way."
This doesn't speak well of your ability to trust in God.
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Rocky
It would be selfish of me, Mike, to say we've missed you. If you don't have time to be involved here at GSC, so be it.
However, two things. One is that Vic's words on his plagiarism HAVE been cited at GSC. Repeatedly. Two, that your source regarding your interpretation of BGL's relationship with Vic, and what BGL may have said to a sixth corpse clergy member is dubious at best. I highly doubt that you'll "verify" anything that was told to you by such a source.
One of the characteristics of the cult of VPW was the prevalence of dubious narcissistic myths. Someone would start a conversation (rumor) and it would get passed along with ZERO critical analysis as if it was god's honest truth. Very quickly, it would become the unquestioned God-breathed Word.
That's the social model your claim seems to fit. If it's not YOUR first hand observation, it's likely BS.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, good post!!
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Infoabsorption
I vaguely remember hearing about B.G.L.'s visit to an R.O.A. years ago. Heard that BG was not treated very kindly there. Your comment about BG rebuking TWI about wrong teaching at the 1985 ROA is interesting. The erroneous teaching may have been just one of the reasons BG showed up there. Did BG intend to confront TWI for the doctrinal errors and also plagiarism? That page attached to BG's book has VPW written all over it. The Way was damned for a lot more than wrong teaching about gifts of the Spirit.
Anybody who has more info on this please reply.
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DontWorryBeHappy
BGL was never at the ROA in 1985. That’s the year dictor paul died. Leonard was an invited guest at Living Victoriously and Corpse week/ROA in 1982.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, intresting. I wonder what he thought about, the teachings of VPW.
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WordWolf
For those arriving late, this is Mike. He said that when Jesus returns, he will be holding a copy of the Orange Book in his hand and will be teaching you from it. He confirmed this was NOT a joke, and that he'd "seen him many times this way." He also has a proven record of rewriting the contents of events at the GSC as well as twi. To be brief, he thinks that "vpw's" books and other reading material have replaced the Bible. Let's see what he's on about today.
There’s no way I have the time to get involved in debate here, but I couldn’t help but notice two interesting items are missing here.
The first missing item is what did VPW himself say about his use of other people’s material? His words on this topic are conspicuously missing here. Why is that?
[That's because it was irrelevant to the discussion. However, I'll humor you in the interest of completeness. Among all the plagiarism where vpw made out that he was working with God Almighty only and nobody else, and places like the introduction to the Orange Book where vpw said exactly that, there was a single book with a single comment made in it. For people who had access to a copy of "the Way-Living in Love", and made it about 200 pages in, there was a passing comment by vpw.]
"Nothing I do is original. Putting it together in this format-that was the original part."
[That sole statement has been creatively interpreted by a handful of people- all people who insist vpw had a special connection to God Almighty- to mean that vpw was admitting that he was ripping off the work of others. It is nothing of the kind. It is a casual comment, rather vague, about not being original. It said nothing about taking Leonard's work and passing it off as his own, Stiles' work and passing it off as his own, and so on. In fact, vpw took Stiles' book oh the Holy Spirit and retyped it, then rephrased some words in later editions, to conceal that it was plagiarized from Stiles (with Bullinger inserted in the Appendices.) In the first few editions, the intro said that vpw "FOUND" a man who taught hm the Holy Spirit field, and in the later editions, vpw rephrased it so that he and he ALONE figured all this out. It's all a CONSISTENT case of INTENTIONAL plagiarism. vpw definitely did his best to pass off the work of others as his own work. ]
I also noticed this crucial information missing EVERY TIME the issue of plagiarism comes up. I think it dampens a lot of theories.
[This irrelevant comment has been mentioned many times on this subject- and has been raised by myself more than once. Naturally, Mike never remembers that little detail. It's rewritten, just as what the comment actually MEANS was rewritten. And it "dampens" nothing. There's also no "theories." There's a very clear trail showing vpw plagiarized and did his best to hide his tracks. So, he knew what he was doing was wrong, and did it anyway.
For those wondering, we've heard "vpw didn't plagiarize", and "God told him to plagiarize" and a few other little things that a handful of people might actually believe to this day. However, they're dying out of old age. Very few kids are buying this tripe.]
Does anyone remember what he said? It’s in print. It was widely distributed, starting in 1972. I’ve posted this item about 10 times here (if not more) since Oldiesman found it around 2003.
[It was "widely distributed" in that one book, buried more than 100 pages in. It also was no great "discovery." It was posted, and as many as 4 posters claimed it had significance.]
Because I have to limit my time here, so I’ll just leave this item hanging. I’ve written reams on it already.
[Mike's definitely written a lot here. When asked, he's never actually GOTTEN TO A POINT. Mike's style is to drop oblique comments, make vague statements, claim he knows more than he's telling, then get offended when either nobody cares, or they get irritated he could spend pages and pages to say he didn't have time to address even ONE direct question. (Lots of time to post filler, not one paragraph of substance.]
***
The next conspicuously missing item is B.G. Leonard’s visit to the Rock of Ages 1985. I think it was 1985. I was told about this by a 6th Corps clergy member.
What BG told an audience there was that The Way was damned for teaching that SIT was not a gift but a manifestation.
[There was an account posted here of someone meeting BGL when he appeared on campus. Leonard flipped out when he heard rock and roll (by Takit) played on campus. He claimed it was the devil's music. ]
"This ministry will not stand! It cannot stand! That music is the music of Baal! This ministry is going to fall!"
""Sir! This ministry will fall down because of idolatry, you mark my words!"
[More than one person recalled his reaction to that rock music. Absolutely NOTHING was posted about Leonard angry that vpw changed "gift" to "manifestation." That's the kind of ridiculous story that's made up to try to make someone look incompetent or some sort of crank. Here, it looks like someone invented it to try to make Leonard look bad- so they could try to say vpw was better or at least of the same calibre.]
In other words, he was angry that VPW did not copy him WELL ENOUGH.
[In those few steps, we go from "Leonard thought rock music was the devil's music" to "Leonard objected to minutiae about the class but was fine with it otherwise" to "Leonard was angry vpw didn't rip him off more precisely." That was fast. And we can all see how we got there. Why did we get there? It's all to try to preserve the fable that vpw was a legitimate minister and even more- an exceptional minister. Some people have made that a cornerstone of their lives (a few), and there's no reasoning with them.]
Also, him being there at the Rock suggests a much closer relationship between VPW and BG than we are generally aware of.
[Steve S@nn invited Leonard , according to accounts. This "much closer relationship" has just been manufactured in front of you.]
All of my knowledge of this event came from one person, who is SO much a Gear/Martindale clone that he will no longer talk to me.
I’m simply trying to verify what I was told.
[Sorry, but there was more than 1 poster who said that, and their accounts agreed. Yours did not. Also, you're not "simply trying to verify". You put forth your claim about this ersatz "relationship" and hoped people would buy it. Let's be honest.]
I’m extremely thankful that, although BG was not of the temperament to move his revelations over the globe, VPW was. There was no way BG could have moved the Word with the Hippies. No way.
[Leonard was of the temperament to empower existing men of God to make them more effective for God Almighty. He was successful enough that- in pre-internet days- his simple class had gotten international attention (that's how vpw found out- people in the US writing about Leonard.) Leonard didn't think of it as "HIS REVELATIONS" either- which is why he just did the work and didn't focus on getting his name around the world.
Frankly, if left alone, Leonard would have kept teaching full-steam, and either a minister he taught would have been sent by God to the hippies, or one of those called by God AMONG the hippies would have taken Leonard's class, and that's all it would have taken. Supposing that Leonard's class was the be-all and end-all you're imagining pfal was.]
Edited by WordWolfFixed a factual error.
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WordWolf
[I think it's not an exaggeration to say that Mike doesn't trust in God working outside of the vpw or Mikean systems. It's why he invented the Mikean system.]
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Infoabsorption
Thanks for the clarification DWBH. I knew it was the 80's but I forgot the exact year. Do you recall BG chiding TWI for doctrinal errors in 1982?
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Twinky
Oh heck. Are we going round this roundabout again???
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
You mean traffic circle? LOL, sorry Twinky
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Twinky
Yeah, traffic circle. Or mulberry bush. Or chasing our tails. Or chasing Mike's tale. Or disappearing into a black hole...
...you know, that might not be a bad option...
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Infoabsorption
Reminds me of a Yes song.
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