The main problem with Victor's teachings was that the biblical information that he perhaps or likely came up with himself without learning from other people were his worst and most errant teachings.For example his false teaching of the original sin of mankind with Adam and Eve being masturbation as heard in the PFAL class. In contrast his best teachings he learned from other people. This shows us that Victor was not living with enough godly "fruit of the spirit" I am glad that he at least learned from other people. His best book in my view was "Are the Dead Alive Now". It is written with many quoted scriptures in a simple and easy to understand format. Who did he learn this from?
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV
He again plagiarized almost verbatim, an article Bullinger wrote in Things To Come, titled “Saul and the Witch of Endor” which addresses the entirety of what wierwille entitled, “Are The Dead Alive Now?”. Surprised Mark? LOL!
He again plagiarized almost verbatim, an article Bullinger wrote in Things To Come, titled “Saul and the Witch of Endor” which addresses the entirety of what wierwille entitled, “Are The Dead Alive Now?”. Surprised Mark? LOL!
"Saul and the Witch of Endor- Did the Dead Rise at Her Bidding?"
"The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?"
Both by Bullinger, pretty much rewritten as the contents of 'ADAN?"
The content was plagiarized, and even the "title with a question" format was ripped off.
When I mentioned that, vpw defenders skipped over the "all the content came from 2 of Bullinger's works" and fixated on "the format was copied over" and took cheap-shots at me for pointing that out- which pretty much highlighted they couldn't dispute that vpw plagiarized about all the content off of those 2 works of Bullinger, so all they had left was to change the subject and insult me.
"Saul and the Witch of Endor- Did the Dead Rise at Her Bidding?"
"The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?"
Both by Bullinger, pretty much rewritten as the contents of 'ADAN?"
The content was plagiarized, and even the "title with a question" format was ripped off.
When I mentioned that, vpw defenders skipped over the "all the content came from 2 of Bullinger's works" and fixated on "the format was copied over" and took cheap-shots at me for pointing that out- which pretty much highlighted they couldn't dispute that vpw plagiarized about all the content off of those 2 works of Bullinger, so all they had left was to change the subject and insult me.
"King Saul and the Witch of Endor- did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?"
"The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" The latter is here-
here are the links to the blog posts that came out yesterday and today.
Thank you, penworks. I saw this from the Way Beyond fb page. Ralph had already shared a lot of that with me here, but this gave me a few more details. There's some interaction in the Part 1 post that you might be interested in seeing, if you can.
I keep forgetting (or downgrading) the amount of plagiarism vpw did from Charles Welch. (Probably because he didn't use 2 initials like BG, JE, EW, EW,,,,)
Thanks both of you.
I wonder how Karl K is doing these days-I saw him adding some of his research there...
I keep forgetting (or downgrading) the amount of plagiarism vpw did from Charles Welch. (Probably because he didn't use 2 initials like BG, JE, EW, EW,,,,)
Thanks both of you.
I wonder how Karl K is doing these days-I saw him adding some of his research there...
Karl's doing well... living an adventurous life... trying to sorta reinvent himself as a comedy writer.
On 10/7/2018 at 9:13 AM, Mark Sanguinetti said:
The main problem with Victor's teachings was that the biblical information that he perhaps or likely came up with himself without learning from other people were his worst and most errant teachings.For example his false teaching of the original sin of mankind with Adam and Eve being masturbation as heard in the PFAL class.
As skewed as his teachings on cf'n'SEX were, they pale in comparison to the widespread and very, very deep rooted damage resulting from the far more well known (and evidently still popular) "Way Tree" teachings.
As skewed as his teachings on cf'n'SEX were, they pale in comparison to the widespread and very, very deep rooted damage resulting from the far more well known (and evidently still popular) "Way Tree" teachings.
I agree and in the late 1980s right after I left the Way International, I wrote an article which from scriptures showed the problem with the Way Tree leadership structure. The article was titled, "The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man".
The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man
I would really like to see that article. My friend and I have had discussions about how no one in the body is above anyone else in the body, and the only head is Jesus Christ. It would be great to see your biblical references and thoughts.
Sorry, but I currently don't have this article on one of my web sites. However, I do still have this article. It was not addressed to the Way International alone. Instead it was addressed to all who say they believe in Jesus Christ. Here are the last two paragraphs of this article.
Quote
In conclusion, the word of God in the first century was not passed down to the believers through a hierarchy of leaders.Rules, mandates and doctrines coming to the body of Christ in this manner may be religiously garbed, but to often are the doctrines and commandments of men. The reason is that the inspiration and teaching of the holy spirit in the hearts of those offering this knowledge is not central.This tyranny, when practiced today, will only bring oppression to God's people with the tradition of men taking precedence over the word of God (see Matthew 15:1-9).A spirit of legalism is also sure to result. The understanding of truth and godliness, for religious rulers “archoon,” who may have confessed Jesus as Lord, will also be darkened.This artificial position can cause them to be puffed up with religious pride, while placing pressure on them to perform a duty only an all knowing, and all wise God can perform.Ultimately they can become slaves to the system they helped create.
In contrast, believers today must be free to listen to God realizing that the gift of holy spirit is the great teacher (see 1 Corinthians 2:10-13).Teachers, along with other Christian ministers, committed to Christ as Lord and not solely to one particular denomination, should be respected for their works sake, and encouraged to carry out any heart felt callings (see 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13).Any Christian organization must be for the purpose of serving God's people while not being done to wield religious power (see Galatians 5:13-15 ).Jesus Christ, alone, must stand as Lord, Mediator, and Head of his body and all Christians should be united under only his Lordship.
The main problem with Victor's teachings was that the biblical information that he perhaps or likely came up with himself without learning from other people were his worst and most errant teachings.For example his false teaching of the original sin of mankind with Adam and Eve being masturbation as heard in the PFAL class. In contrast his best teachings he learned from other people.
Mark that is what I've come to realize too. I've heard that Jesus Christ Our Passover is an excellent book, but I've read on GS that was entirely written by the research team and VP put his name on it. I honestly don't remember him teaching the masturbation thing, in the 79 PFAL class I took, but I pretty much slept and drooled through the whole boring class. However, I do remember the teaching that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth, and this continued even to the offshoot I attended in the 90s.
I clearly remember him teaching that when scripture says "They knew each other" it means not having sex alone, but to have children with that union.
I also remember the "angels don't sing" teaching, which they held onto so religiously they wouldn't even sing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing"
Well, I could go on, but then this will turn into a doctrinal thread, and that's not what I intended. I just wanted to let you know I agree totally. When others did the research, from his own camp or people like Stiles, it was considered some great revelation. Interestingly, On Stiles forward on his Holy Spirit Book, he pretty much says he wished he would have sued Wierwille (though he doesn't use his name) and stopped him from using his book to charge for classes. Yeah, I sincerely wish he would have sued Wierwille too. It would have prevented a lot of grief for people.
In CFS, he broke down a bunch of words and gave them all a sexual connotation, and was also inconsistent with his explanation. "ARUM", according to him, meant- depending on the verse in that passage- either "sharp or wise" or "nothing to hide". That's a HECK of a lot of ground for one word to cover! Everybody in Genesis was "arum"- "the Serpent", Adam, Eve... and it meant completely unrelated things when it referred to different individuals.
"It wasn't the apple on the tree- it was the pear/pair on the ground."
Every crackpot idea that connected to sex found a home in twi. I've noticed that most seem to be twi and ex-twi specific in usage. In cyberspace, when I've looked for explanations of the related verses, only ex-twi'ers said "this is what it means" and nobody else.
twi/vpw taught that Mary and Joseph had sex before Jesus was born. The whole "knew her not meant no sex OR no sex resulting in conception" thing is unique to twi/ ex-twi. No scholar has stepped forth to claim that.EVERYBODY else seems to think this is a rather straightforward thing (no sex before Jesus was born.)
twi/vpw taught that Jesus and Samson were both molested- Jesus when the soldiers tortured him, Samson when the Philistines captured him. It was an enormous stretch placed on the JKV phrase "made sport", and examination showed it didn't hold up in Biblical usage. Small wonder, again, only ex-twi'ers claim that one.
twi/vpw taught that when someone swore "with hand on thigh" that the hand wasn't on the thigh- the hand was somewhere else, and the oath sworn "hand on thigh" was sworn "on the family jewels." Turns out the long answer is that the "thigh" thing isn't figurative. What is meant in swearing ON a thigh was figurative, but the physical hand was on the physical thigh in practice. Again, ex-twi'ers still teach that one, but the general public does not.
waysider: Thank you! That makes more sense, lol. I was under the impression that Martindale taught that though. Thank you for clearing that up.
WordWolf. Thank you for that additional info. I do remember somebody mentioning that Jesus was molested, something about "being brought to naught." I'd have to look it up, but I doubt I will. I didn't know about the Samson one though. Thank you for bringing that up as well.
I sometimes wonder why this weird stuff is in the back of my mind, and now I know.It's past TWI stuff that sticks on some brain cells like a piece of toilet paper clinging to your shoe.
waysider: Thank you! That makes more sense, lol. I was under the impression that Martindale taught that though. Thank you for clearing that up.
WordWolf. Thank you for that additional info. I do remember somebody mentioning that Jesus was molested, something about "being brought to naught." I'd have to look it up, but I doubt I will. I didn't know about the Samson one though. Thank you for bringing that up as well.
I sometimes wonder why this weird stuff is in the back of my mind, and now I know.It's past TWI stuff that sticks on some brain cells like a piece of toilet paper clinging to your shoe.
We discussed whether Samson and/or Jesus was/were molested in "Were Samson and Jesus Molested?"
We discussed the oath with the hand under thigh in "Oath- hand under thigh".
If you are not a subscriber to my blogs and are interested in my two-part interview with Ralph Dubofsky regarding his first-hand experience of discovering plagiarism that Victor Paul Wierwille engaged in, here are the links to the blog posts that came out yesterday and today. Interesting they came out during The Way's 75th anniversary month
That makes sense that Victor's Wierwille's weird teaching that masturbation was man's original sin with Adam and Eve was taught in the "Christian Family and Sex" class. I vaguely remember him teaching that, but my memory as to where he taught it is not perfect. If he was alive today I would want to nicely and politely correct him on that weird teaching. I would perhaps simply let him know that we all make mistakes.
Okay WordWolf I just did post it in Gems. Took me a search to find where it was though.
Mark you made me lol with your nicely and politely correcting VP. I wish I could find my copy of that Stiles book I have (a friend gave me) where the forward is pretty straightforward about a certain person who plagiarized his work and is charging money for classes from it.
"Sporting" can certainly have sexual connotations: Isaac was seen "sporting" with his wife Rebekah - some versions use "caressing," another says "hugging and kissing" and another again: "making love."
The hand on (or under) thigh certainly has a long history in Jewish /rabbinical teaching to mean hand on genitals, and the word for "thigh" is (apparently) also a (or the) word for "shaft," a word sometimes used today with a sexual connotation.
Did we need to know this? Maybe, maybe not. Did we need to be taught this, in astounding detail, by a lecher whose outlook was not "love of God" focused, but "love of (lust for) women" focused? No, we did not. It's someone else's work he pinched, and passed off as his own, with his own particular emphasis.
I found my book! lol, I'm excited anyway. Forgive me it's B.G.Leonard and "Gifts of the Spirit" I'm kind of stupid about this kind of stuff. A friend gave this to me and told me to note the forward in the beginning, which he said was meant for VP. This probably has been mentioned on the board before, but I'll type it out anyway. I couldn't believe it when I read it myself, even after knowing that VP did this, lol. Okay, this is on the inside cover of the book.
AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE RE REV. B.G. LEONARDS BOOKS. FROM THE AUTHOR TO YOU
Skipping down to the second paragraph of the "preface"
There has been, from the first appearance of my very first appearance of my very first books upon the market, one terrible and continuing sinful practice engaged in by a high number of BELIEVERS. I refer to PLAGERISM: the sin of attempting him or herself up as THE AUTHOR thereof! They then proceed to photocopy my works in whole or in part and to sell them! Others put them on audio or video cassettes as their own works and get remuneration for same.
All this is abhorrent to Our God Who totally forbids it.
Okay, then he quotes Jer. 23:30 and said the copyright is his, then he says this.
I should have stepped on this diabolical disgrace ages ago. I shall do so now, at the very first signs of its reappearance "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED" means exactly that.
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penworks
Good morning. If you are not a subscriber to my blogs and are interested in my two-part interview with Ralph Dubofsky regarding his first-hand experience of discovering plagiarism that Victor Pau
WordWolf
"Saul and the Witch of Endor- Did the Dead Rise at Her Bidding?" "The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" Both by Bullinger, pretty much rewritten as the contents of 'ADAN?" T
WordWolf
"King Saul and the Witch of Endor- did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?" "The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" The latter is here- https://philologos.org/__eb-rml/
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Mark Sanguinetti
The main problem with Victor's teachings was that the biblical information that he perhaps or likely came up with himself without learning from other people were his worst and most errant teachings.For example his false teaching of the original sin of mankind with Adam and Eve being masturbation as heard in the PFAL class. In contrast his best teachings he learned from other people. This shows us that Victor was not living with enough godly "fruit of the spirit" I am glad that he at least learned from other people. His best book in my view was "Are the Dead Alive Now". It is written with many quoted scriptures in a simple and easy to understand format. Who did he learn this from?
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
KJV
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DontWorryBeHappy
He again plagiarized almost verbatim, an article Bullinger wrote in Things To Come, titled “Saul and the Witch of Endor” which addresses the entirety of what wierwille entitled, “Are The Dead Alive Now?”. Surprised Mark? LOL!
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WordWolf
"Saul and the Witch of Endor- Did the Dead Rise at Her Bidding?"
"The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?"
Both by Bullinger, pretty much rewritten as the contents of 'ADAN?"
The content was plagiarized, and even the "title with a question" format was ripped off.
When I mentioned that, vpw defenders skipped over the "all the content came from 2 of Bullinger's works" and fixated on "the format was copied over" and took cheap-shots at me for pointing that out- which pretty much highlighted they couldn't dispute that vpw plagiarized about all the content off of those 2 works of Bullinger, so all they had left was to change the subject and insult me.
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WordWolf
"King Saul and the Witch of Endor- did the Prophet Samuel Rise at Her Bidding?"
"The Rich Man and Lazarus- an Intermediate State?" The latter is here-
https://philologos.org/__eb-rml/
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Taxidev
Thank you, penworks. I saw this from the Way Beyond fb page. Ralph had already shared a lot of that with me here, but this gave me a few more details. There's some interaction in the Part 1 post that you might be interested in seeing, if you can.
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WordWolf
I keep forgetting (or downgrading) the amount of plagiarism vpw did from Charles Welch. (Probably because he didn't use 2 initials like BG, JE, EW, EW,,,,)
Thanks both of you.
I wonder how Karl K is doing these days-I saw him adding some of his research there...
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Rocky
Karl's doing well... living an adventurous life... trying to sorta reinvent himself as a comedy writer.
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TLC
As skewed as his teachings on cf'n'SEX were, they pale in comparison to the widespread and very, very deep rooted damage resulting from the far more well known (and evidently still popular) "Way Tree" teachings.
Edited by TLCLink to comment
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Mark Sanguinetti
I agree and in the late 1980s right after I left the Way International, I wrote an article which from scriptures showed the problem with the Way Tree leadership structure. The article was titled, "The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man".
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Taxidev
I would really like to see that article. My friend and I have had discussions about how no one in the body is above anyone else in the body, and the only head is Jesus Christ. It would be great to see your biblical references and thoughts.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Sorry, but I currently don't have this article on one of my web sites. However, I do still have this article. It was not addressed to the Way International alone. Instead it was addressed to all who say they believe in Jesus Christ. Here are the last two paragraphs of this article.
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RottieGrrrl
Mark that is what I've come to realize too. I've heard that Jesus Christ Our Passover is an excellent book, but I've read on GS that was entirely written by the research team and VP put his name on it. I honestly don't remember him teaching the masturbation thing, in the 79 PFAL class I took, but I pretty much slept and drooled through the whole boring class. However, I do remember the teaching that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth, and this continued even to the offshoot I attended in the 90s.
I clearly remember him teaching that when scripture says "They knew each other" it means not having sex alone, but to have children with that union.
I also remember the "angels don't sing" teaching, which they held onto so religiously they wouldn't even sing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing"
Well, I could go on, but then this will turn into a doctrinal thread, and that's not what I intended. I just wanted to let you know I agree totally. When others did the research, from his own camp or people like Stiles, it was considered some great revelation. Interestingly, On Stiles forward on his Holy Spirit Book, he pretty much says he wished he would have sued Wierwille (though he doesn't use his name) and stopped him from using his book to charge for classes. Yeah, I sincerely wish he would have sued Wierwille too. It would have prevented a lot of grief for people.
Edited by RottieGrrrlgrammar
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waysider
It was in CF&S
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WordWolf
In CFS, he broke down a bunch of words and gave them all a sexual connotation, and was also inconsistent with his explanation. "ARUM", according to him, meant- depending on the verse in that passage- either "sharp or wise" or "nothing to hide". That's a HECK of a lot of ground for one word to cover! Everybody in Genesis was "arum"- "the Serpent", Adam, Eve... and it meant completely unrelated things when it referred to different individuals.
"It wasn't the apple on the tree- it was the pear/pair on the ground."
Every crackpot idea that connected to sex found a home in twi. I've noticed that most seem to be twi and ex-twi specific in usage. In cyberspace, when I've looked for explanations of the related verses, only ex-twi'ers said "this is what it means" and nobody else.
twi/vpw taught that Mary and Joseph had sex before Jesus was born. The whole "knew her not meant no sex OR no sex resulting in conception" thing is unique to twi/ ex-twi. No scholar has stepped forth to claim that.EVERYBODY else seems to think this is a rather straightforward thing (no sex before Jesus was born.)
twi/vpw taught that Jesus and Samson were both molested- Jesus when the soldiers tortured him, Samson when the Philistines captured him. It was an enormous stretch placed on the JKV phrase "made sport", and examination showed it didn't hold up in Biblical usage. Small wonder, again, only ex-twi'ers claim that one.
twi/vpw taught that when someone swore "with hand on thigh" that the hand wasn't on the thigh- the hand was somewhere else, and the oath sworn "hand on thigh" was sworn "on the family jewels." Turns out the long answer is that the "thigh" thing isn't figurative. What is meant in swearing ON a thigh was figurative, but the physical hand was on the physical thigh in practice. Again, ex-twi'ers still teach that one, but the general public does not.
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RottieGrrrl
waysider: Thank you! That makes more sense, lol. I was under the impression that Martindale taught that though. Thank you for clearing that up.
WordWolf. Thank you for that additional info. I do remember somebody mentioning that Jesus was molested, something about "being brought to naught." I'd have to look it up, but I doubt I will. I didn't know about the Samson one though. Thank you for bringing that up as well.
I sometimes wonder why this weird stuff is in the back of my mind, and now I know.It's past TWI stuff that sticks on some brain cells like a piece of toilet paper clinging to your shoe.
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RottieGrrrl
:) :) :) This belongs in GreaseSpot gems.
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WordWolf
We discussed whether Samson and/or Jesus was/were molested in "Were Samson and Jesus Molested?"
We discussed the oath with the hand under thigh in "Oath- hand under thigh".
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/10317-oath-hand-under-thigh/
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WordWolf
Feel free to put it there. It's not subject to a vote or anything.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Charlene, great posts! Thanks for the links.
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Mark Sanguinetti
That makes sense that Victor's Wierwille's weird teaching that masturbation was man's original sin with Adam and Eve was taught in the "Christian Family and Sex" class. I vaguely remember him teaching that, but my memory as to where he taught it is not perfect. If he was alive today I would want to nicely and politely correct him on that weird teaching. I would perhaps simply let him know that we all make mistakes.
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RottieGrrrl
Okay WordWolf I just did post it in Gems. Took me a search to find where it was though.
Mark you made me lol with your nicely and politely correcting VP. I wish I could find my copy of that Stiles book I have (a friend gave me) where the forward is pretty straightforward about a certain person who plagiarized his work and is charging money for classes from it.
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Twinky
"Sporting" can certainly have sexual connotations: Isaac was seen "sporting" with his wife Rebekah - some versions use "caressing," another says "hugging and kissing" and another again: "making love."
The hand on (or under) thigh certainly has a long history in Jewish /rabbinical teaching to mean hand on genitals, and the word for "thigh" is (apparently) also a (or the) word for "shaft," a word sometimes used today with a sexual connotation.
Did we need to know this? Maybe, maybe not. Did we need to be taught this, in astounding detail, by a lecher whose outlook was not "love of God" focused, but "love of (lust for) women" focused? No, we did not. It's someone else's work he pinched, and passed off as his own, with his own particular emphasis.
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RottieGrrrl
I found my book! lol, I'm excited anyway. Forgive me it's B.G.Leonard and "Gifts of the Spirit" I'm kind of stupid about this kind of stuff. A friend gave this to me and told me to note the forward in the beginning, which he said was meant for VP. This probably has been mentioned on the board before, but I'll type it out anyway. I couldn't believe it when I read it myself, even after knowing that VP did this, lol. Okay, this is on the inside cover of the book.
AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE RE REV. B.G. LEONARDS BOOKS. FROM THE AUTHOR TO YOU
Skipping down to the second paragraph of the "preface"
There has been, from the first appearance of my very first appearance of my very first books upon the market, one terrible and continuing sinful practice engaged in by a high number of BELIEVERS. I refer to PLAGERISM: the sin of attempting him or herself up as THE AUTHOR thereof! They then proceed to photocopy my works in whole or in part and to sell them! Others put them on audio or video cassettes as their own works and get remuneration for same.
All this is abhorrent to Our God Who totally forbids it.
Okay, then he quotes Jer. 23:30 and said the copyright is his, then he says this.
I should have stepped on this diabolical disgrace ages ago. I shall do so now, at the very first signs of its reappearance "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED" means exactly that.
Then he signs his name Rev. B.G.Leonard.
Okay, I just thought that was very interesting.
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penworks
Good detective work, RottieGrrrl. Thanks so much. Can you tell us the date of that edition of the book?
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