A need is the lack of a necessity that God stands ready to fill.
A supply is a provision that meets a need.
The needy are those who are in need, generally for a period of time.
Spontaneous giving is an individual’s decision to give in a particular (and possibly unanticipated) circumstance.
Planned giving is an individual’s decision to participate in a collective effort to pool resources with other believers for a common charitable purpose.
A collection is an effort organized by a group of concerned believers to pool freely-offered resources to supply the need of an identified individual or group of individuals.
A partnership is the decision of one or more believers to commit to ongoing contributions to the church’s collective efforts so as to facilitate the wider dissemination of the Word.
So now it begins............the need for money, the need to recruit others.
And.......why Wichita, Kansas? Is there still a group of loyal wierwille-followers there?
With regards to the main drivers of the R&R group.......horneys, moynihans, sheltons and michael fort:
Although some of them have done contributing teachings to a certain weekend or event..........IMO, they are not going to embrace and enthusiastically support Rico's splinter group. All money, teaching series and decision-making are in the hands of Rico. Unless you are the lead dog.......the view never changes.
If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the horneys to attempt to break to the front of R&R.
BUT.......many of those 80 corps who recently exited will scatter to the winds.
Moynihans' time has passed........they will support to bask in adulation of others.
Many of these top-tier corps (cough, cough) will start to connect the dots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters not to me if people want to congregate in others' living rooms for teachings and fellowship. Go for it.
What I oppose is CENTRALIZATION OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE FROM AFAR........where "leaders" dictate, mandate, coerce and exploit followers. The world is littered with scams and schemes that separate people from their hard-earned money........and cults prey on the weak and gullible. Be wise as serpents and kick their a$$es out!!
With regards to the main drivers of the R&R group.......horneys, moynihans, sheltons and michael fort:
Although some of them have done contributing teachings to a certain weekend or event..........IMO, they are not going to embrace and enthusiastically support Rico's splinter group. All money, teaching series and decision-making are in the hands of Rico. Unless you are the lead dog.......the view never changes.
If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the horneys to attempt to break to the front of R&R.
BUT.......many of those 80 corps who recently exited will scatter to the winds.
Moynihans' time has passed........they will support to bask in adulation of others.
Many of these top-tier corps (cough, cough) will start to connect the dots.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters not to me if people want to congregate in others' living rooms for teachings and fellowship. Go for it.
What I oppose is CENTRALIZATION OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE FROM AFAR........where "leaders" dictate, mandate, coerce and exploit followers. The world is littered with scams and schemes that separate people from their hard-earned money........and cults prey on the weak and gullible. Be wise as serpents and kick their a$$es out!!
And EVERY human is weak and gullible at one time or another in their life.
I just saw this thread and the one with the Corpse confrontation letter to the BOD.
Gee whiz. How sad.
First, to see names of folks I knew back then and liked. Then, that they are still in. My, oh my. Just awful.
I don't usually post, but I had to on this one. PFAL in '74, 10th corpse, left in Oct., '86. Still can't quite shake all the crap we saw and got put through. Those folks have to be dead to everything.
What I oppose is CENTRALIZATION OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE FROM AFAR........where "leaders" dictate, mandate, coerce and exploit followers. The world is littered with scams and schemes that separate people from their hard-earned money........
The Momentus thread has resurfaced from the past (2004).......a reminder of another perverted version of scamming people.
And......some twi-leaders, after exiting mother-cult twi, went forth with scams and schemes like Momentus. Men like Bo Reahard (1st corps), John Lynn (CES founder), John Schoenheit (6th corps) and Mark Graeser (7th corps) were strong proponents of this "thought-reform" process.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some Excerpts from Steve Lortz:
This is different from cultic groups and others that use thought-reform techniques. In these latter groups, there is deliberate deception about what the group is and what some of the rituals might be, and primarily, there is deception about what the ultimate goal will be for a member, what will ultimately be demanded and expected, and what the damages resulting from some of the practices might be.
The hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers was to turn Momentus grads into recruiting machines, something they did with a vengence. They really liked John Lynn. The latest I read, John was bragging he had gotten 1,200 of his "closest friends" to take Momentus. At $150 a head, John Lynn was responsible for bringing $180,000 into the Momentus coffers.
Here's how the life-boat exercise went.
It was the last exercise of the day, after we were all worn out. The lights were dimmed. We were told to sit with our eyes closed while Larry Pinci led us through the guided imagery of being on a cruise ship, how wonderful everything was. Then the ship started to sink.
(This just seemed hokey to me. Maybe it was because Larry's delivery wasn't up to snuff. Maybe it was the four years experience I had living on a submarine.)
Next, each one of us had to get up in front of the group (about 60 in our case) and tell what he/she would do, and why. Any attempt to escape by a means other than the life-boat was disallowed by the trainers. Early persons who gave up their seat out of what Danny called the "well-known, traditional Christian virtue of 'self-sacrifice'" were hooted and jeered and mocked by the trainers, so that option suffered an early demise. What the trainers wanted was for everyone to make a pitch as to why he or she personally should be on the boat.
But Momentus was designed, from the ground up, to be deceptive. Deception was in EVERYTHING the trainers did. They didn't care if people were hurt by what they were doing. They didn't care if people got anything beneficial out of what they were doing, either. They only cared about our money, and about breaking and remolding us into recruiting machines so they could get even MORE people's money.
The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club. I never attended any of the local grad meetings. After my experiences in The Way, I couldn't stomach the thought of being another "grad" of ANYTHING.
If I HAD attended the secret grad meetings, I would have become aware sooner of the truth about certain things happening in The Living Word Fellowship. The Momentus grads hijacked the leadership team by driving non-grads out (using techniques learned in the Momentus training), and then began using parts of the meetings to promote Momentus. It looked very casual and spontaneous on the surface, but at heart, it was all carefully orchestrated, in order to maximize recruiting.
The most insidious evil of the Momentus training is the hold-harmless agreement. Trusting people who mean what they say and say what they mean, in signing the hold-harmless agreement, unthinkingly commit themselves to NOT RECOGNIZING the true damage Momentus does.
That includes the deceptive physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation involved in the exercises. Those people are primed to accept the trainer's deceptive, nonsensical explanations without asking any critical questions.
The hold-harmless agreement also fosters a callous, cold-hearted indifference to the suffering of the people who succumb to Momentus' "psychologically dangerous" exercises.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Insidious groups often change the names of their courses, classes and conferences............when critics and dissenters raise awareness of their tactics.
Twi's in-residence corps program used physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation exercises to overpower and indoctrinate. And now, there are ex-corps leaders who, not only run offshoot mini-cults..........but parlay their manipulative skills into "self-help" quackery.
The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club.
Wasn't Momentus training a relatively short experience? Frankly, that simply strikes me as something said and claimed by someone quite distant from (and well outside the pale of) early (or earlier) wc training, or perhaps even HQ staff...
Wasn't Momentus training a relatively short experience? Frankly, that simply strikes me as something said and claimed by someone quite distant from (and well outside the pale of) early (or earlier) wc training, or perhaps even HQ staff...
TLC........as I understand it, Momentus was a short, intense experience. If you read the entire thread, Steve Lortz gives the most detailed account of the Momentus course, its inner workings, hold-harmless agreement, costs, psychological damage, recruitment methods, and the Momentus Manipulators. Read the thread.
Steve was a regular poster here at GSC and has an extensive history of many profound posts. He passed away in 2017.
It does speak volumes that John Lynn was seeking the approval of the top dogs at Momentus. Sure, he wanted to fill his pockets with signup-money.........but that he sought out their approval and to "hang with them." These Momentus exercises......ie "the lifeboat experience".........put others' deepest thoughts and fears in PUBLIC VIEW for all to see. From what I've read.......it ruined marriages and wreaked psychological damage to a large swath of participants.
We were also told we can't share anything that happened in the training with anyone outside of it. That's pretty weird now that I think about it.
I went to Momentous because someone in my fellowship hounded me into it. I originally didn't want to go. I was seeing a psychiatrist at the time which made me ineligible. But lo and behold it turned out I could (per Tuccini) as long as I wasn't on medication. So I went.
I bought into everything that was going on but it kicked me into a manic episode and I ended up in the mental hospital. The group leaders actually came to see me. But there was never any acknowledgment from anyone in my fellowship that Momentous was to blame in any way.
John Lynn stated in one of his communications that those that had problems in Momentous was because they "didn't want to face something in themselves" or something to that effect.
The hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers was to turn Momentus grads into recruiting machines, something they did with a vengence. They really liked John Lynn. The latest I read, John was bragging he had gotten 1,200 of his "closest friends" to take Momentus. At $150 a head, John Lynn was responsible for bringing $180,000 into the Momentus coffers.
I looked at the linked websites. Apparently now, the enrollment cost is just shy of $800. They apparently also claim that it's a $5000.00 value. Now THAT is bovine scatology.
Wasn't Momentus training a relatively short experience? Frankly, that simply strikes me as something said and claimed by someone quite distant from (and well outside the pale of) early (or earlier) wc training, or perhaps even HQ staff...
TLC........as I understand it, Momentus was a short, intense experience. If you read the entire thread, Steve Lortz...
Yes, I recognize Steve's name from earlier postings... and also recall reading a number of previous postings regarding Momentus. However, it appears that you may have missed the intent of my post. Given the magnitude of elitism so deeply fostered within and (somewhat permanently) engrained into the WC, anyone referring to that as mere "Mickey Mouse Club" stuff evidently either wasn't close enough, familiar enough, or perceptive enough to see or recognize the extent of its effectiveness.
No matter how intense and/or provocative Momentus (or any other) experience might be, any comparison to years of WC training might (at best) be likened to throwing frogs into a pot of boiling water (a certain number of which are sure to jump out) versus putting them in cold water and slowing turning the heat up (which surely cooks them, one and all.)
... in other words, no matter what size your ego was going into the WC, the programing process ensured that it was enhanced and thoroughly "baked in" to your life and walk with God.
I looked at the linked websites. Apparently now, the enrollment cost is just shy of $800. They apparently also claim that it's a $5000.00 value. Now THAT is bovine scatology.
Bovine scatology........indeed!
That's a mighty high price to pay to get into their "lifeboat"..........a ship of fools.
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skyrider
On January 20, 2019........They had a conference weekend in Wichita, Kansas.
Three Teachings noted.........
So now it begins............the need for money, the need to recruit others.
And.......why Wichita, Kansas? Is there still a group of loyal wierwille-followers there?
.....
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TLC
...as surely as the serpent will bite without enchantment...
it's simply the nature of the beast.
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Rocky
Weren't there some of us who, while others suggested the group wasn't interested in followers' money, that it was indeed the nature of the beast?
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skyrider
Yes.......while some said, "well they haven't asked for money"........many of us said, "it's only a matter of time."
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skyrider
With regards to the main drivers of the R&R group.......horneys, moynihans, sheltons and michael fort:
Although some of them have done contributing teachings to a certain weekend or event..........IMO, they are not going to embrace and enthusiastically support Rico's splinter group. All money, teaching series and decision-making are in the hands of Rico. Unless you are the lead dog.......the view never changes.
If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the horneys to attempt to break to the front of R&R.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It matters not to me if people want to congregate in others' living rooms for teachings and fellowship. Go for it.
What I oppose is CENTRALIZATION OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE FROM AFAR........where "leaders" dictate, mandate, coerce and exploit followers. The world is littered with scams and schemes that separate people from their hard-earned money........and cults prey on the weak and gullible. Be wise as serpents and kick their a$$es out!!
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Rocky
And EVERY human is weak and gullible at one time or another in their life.
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WordWolf
Yes. 2 threads we said this on- 'Might this be why the Moneyhands were M& A?" and "R&R Group: Too Late, cult-sycophants already taken."
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24458-might-this-be-why-the-moneyhands-were-ma/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24586-rr-group-too-late-cult-sycophants-already-taken/
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engine
I just saw this thread and the one with the Corpse confrontation letter to the BOD.
Gee whiz. How sad.
First, to see names of folks I knew back then and liked. Then, that they are still in. My, oh my. Just awful.
I don't usually post, but I had to on this one. PFAL in '74, 10th corpse, left in Oct., '86. Still can't quite shake all the crap we saw and got put through. Those folks have to be dead to everything.
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skyrider
The Momentus thread has resurfaced from the past (2004).......a reminder of another perverted version of scamming people.
And......some twi-leaders, after exiting mother-cult twi, went forth with scams and schemes like Momentus. Men like Bo Reahard (1st corps), John Lynn (CES founder), John Schoenheit (6th corps) and Mark Graeser (7th corps) were strong proponents of this "thought-reform" process.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some Excerpts from Steve Lortz:
The hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers was to turn Momentus grads into recruiting machines, something they did with a vengence. They really liked John Lynn. The latest I read, John was bragging he had gotten 1,200 of his "closest friends" to take Momentus. At $150 a head, John Lynn was responsible for bringing $180,000 into the Momentus coffers.
Here's how the life-boat exercise went.
It was the last exercise of the day, after we were all worn out. The lights were dimmed. We were told to sit with our eyes closed while Larry Pinci led us through the guided imagery of being on a cruise ship, how wonderful everything was. Then the ship started to sink.
(This just seemed hokey to me. Maybe it was because Larry's delivery wasn't up to snuff. Maybe it was the four years experience I had living on a submarine.)
Next, each one of us had to get up in front of the group (about 60 in our case) and tell what he/she would do, and why. Any attempt to escape by a means other than the life-boat was disallowed by the trainers. Early persons who gave up their seat out of what Danny called the "well-known, traditional Christian virtue of 'self-sacrifice'" were hooted and jeered and mocked by the trainers, so that option suffered an early demise. What the trainers wanted was for everyone to make a pitch as to why he or she personally should be on the boat.
But Momentus was designed, from the ground up, to be deceptive. Deception was in EVERYTHING the trainers did. They didn't care if people were hurt by what they were doing. They didn't care if people got anything beneficial out of what they were doing, either. They only cared about our money, and about breaking and remolding us into recruiting machines so they could get even MORE people's money.
The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club. I never attended any of the local grad meetings. After my experiences in The Way, I couldn't stomach the thought of being another "grad" of ANYTHING.
If I HAD attended the secret grad meetings, I would have become aware sooner of the truth about certain things happening in The Living Word Fellowship. The Momentus grads hijacked the leadership team by driving non-grads out (using techniques learned in the Momentus training), and then began using parts of the meetings to promote Momentus. It looked very casual and spontaneous on the surface, but at heart, it was all carefully orchestrated, in order to maximize recruiting.
The most insidious evil of the Momentus training is the hold-harmless agreement. Trusting people who mean what they say and say what they mean, in signing the hold-harmless agreement, unthinkingly commit themselves to NOT RECOGNIZING the true damage Momentus does.
That includes the deceptive physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation involved in the exercises. Those people are primed to accept the trainer's deceptive, nonsensical explanations without asking any critical questions.
The hold-harmless agreement also fosters a callous, cold-hearted indifference to the suffering of the people who succumb to Momentus' "psychologically dangerous" exercises.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Insidious groups often change the names of their courses, classes and conferences............when critics and dissenters raise awareness of their tactics.
New names ............... https://www.therevenantprocess.com/ and https://www.bloodandethos.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Twi's in-residence corps program used physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation exercises to overpower and indoctrinate. And now, there are ex-corps leaders who, not only run offshoot mini-cults..........but parlay their manipulative skills into "self-help" quackery.
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TLC
Wasn't Momentus training a relatively short experience? Frankly, that simply strikes me as something said and claimed by someone quite distant from (and well outside the pale of) early (or earlier) wc training, or perhaps even HQ staff...
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skyrider
TLC........as I understand it, Momentus was a short, intense experience. If you read the entire thread, Steve Lortz gives the most detailed account of the Momentus course, its inner workings, hold-harmless agreement, costs, psychological damage, recruitment methods, and the Momentus Manipulators. Read the thread.
Steve was a regular poster here at GSC and has an extensive history of many profound posts. He passed away in 2017.
It does speak volumes that John Lynn was seeking the approval of the top dogs at Momentus. Sure, he wanted to fill his pockets with signup-money.........but that he sought out their approval and to "hang with them." These Momentus exercises......ie "the lifeboat experience".........put others' deepest thoughts and fears in PUBLIC VIEW for all to see. From what I've read.......it ruined marriages and wreaked psychological damage to a large swath of participants.
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outandabout
We were also told we can't share anything that happened in the training with anyone outside of it. That's pretty weird now that I think about it.
I went to Momentous because someone in my fellowship hounded me into it. I originally didn't want to go. I was seeing a psychiatrist at the time which made me ineligible. But lo and behold it turned out I could (per Tuccini) as long as I wasn't on medication. So I went.
I bought into everything that was going on but it kicked me into a manic episode and I ended up in the mental hospital. The group leaders actually came to see me. But there was never any acknowledgment from anyone in my fellowship that Momentous was to blame in any way.
John Lynn stated in one of his communications that those that had problems in Momentous was because they "didn't want to face something in themselves" or something to that effect.
Edited by outandaboutLink to comment
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Rocky
I looked at the linked websites. Apparently now, the enrollment cost is just shy of $800. They apparently also claim that it's a $5000.00 value. Now THAT is bovine scatology.
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TLC
Yes, I recognize Steve's name from earlier postings... and also recall reading a number of previous postings regarding Momentus. However, it appears that you may have missed the intent of my post. Given the magnitude of elitism so deeply fostered within and (somewhat permanently) engrained into the WC, anyone referring to that as mere "Mickey Mouse Club" stuff evidently either wasn't close enough, familiar enough, or perceptive enough to see or recognize the extent of its effectiveness.
No matter how intense and/or provocative Momentus (or any other) experience might be, any comparison to years of WC training might (at best) be likened to throwing frogs into a pot of boiling water (a certain number of which are sure to jump out) versus putting them in cold water and slowing turning the heat up (which surely cooks them, one and all.)
... in other words, no matter what size your ego was going into the WC, the programing process ensured that it was enhanced and thoroughly "baked in" to your life and walk with God.
Edited by TLC...in other words (con't)
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skyrider
Bovine scatology........indeed!
That's a mighty high price to pay to get into their "lifeboat"..........a ship of fools.
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skyrider
Update: The Oikeos Christian Network website details their pertinent teachings series and conferences dating back to May 1, 2017.
IMO..........the lines in the sand are drawn.
Is the R&R group going to get their act, and website, together............or fade into irrelevance?
And..........I think that many of those exited corps will fade away into family, careers and retirement.
~~~~~~~~~~
......With another 80 corps gone, twi's Corps Placement Meetings in March 2019 will have very few corps to "move around." LOL
.
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