…very close to the center…the singularity of infinitesimal value where extremely large amounts of bull$hit were crushed into an utterly dense plagiarist…
…there comes a single word…said in a restrained unison as if the word was escaping through the clenched teeth of the mighty pompous a$$holes…
This is the conversation so far. It seems like they have someone on the inside at Wikipedia.
Request reason:
I understand that I was blocked, and that the reason for being blocked was due to "vandalism". However, I have not vandalized the page in which I was editing. The Way International is a cult based on the beliefs of the majority of Christianity. As a reference, the websitehttps://www.christianitytoday.com/iyf/advice/faithqa/what-is-cult.htmlprovides information about what is commonly agreed upon as being a cult. I spent 5 years in The Way International, and I have heard at various times that if an individual "leaves the household" that they will suffer from having God's blessing removed from their lives. While I understand that there has been an emotional response from those trying to undo my edits which accurately describe The Way International as a cult, my stance is that there is no vandalism involved, because the information I have is true. In regards to changing the website URL, my reasoning is that, The Way International is a cult. The Greasespot Cafe website, is a website made up of individuals who have been a part of The Way and left, or are still part of The Way. As a resource for learning about The Way International, Greasespot Cafe is more educational the true nature of The Way International than theway.org URL. However, if the organization's web page must be allowed to remain on wikipedia, I suggest that the URL for Greasespot Cafe not be removed so that anyone reading this article can make up their own minds.
Decline reason:
It sounds like you're here toright great wrongs. This is not what Wikipedia is for. If you can convince an administrator that you're here to write encyclopedia articles – not to reveal the truth about this organization – you'll likely be unblocked.NinjaRobotPirate(talk) 05:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
equest reason:
Based on Wikipedia's guidelines, I haven't committed any act of vandalism. There seems to be a disagreement between myself and the user that continues to undo my edits. Based on the "Righting Great Wrongs" idea, based on Wikipedia's own guidelines: " Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead, we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. What we do is find neutral ways of presenting them." With that being said, the Apologetics Index, Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (CARM), and gotquestions.org, list The Way International as a cult. I fail to see how my edits have been an act of vandalism, when I'm trying to ensure that the information contained within this particular article is accurate according to reliable sources.
Decline reason:
This was clear vandalism.As was this.And this. If you don't see how those were acts of vandalism then I'm afraidyou lack sufficient competence to edit here. We may consider unblocking you if you acknowledge what you've done wrong and agree to a topic ban around The Way International, broadly construed. This should be no problem for you, unless you are indeed here to right great wrongs.Yamla(talk) 14:56, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Request reason:
I'm not going to seek further action. It already appears pretty clear that as an administrator you have no intention of following Wikipedia's own guidelines. I have provided multiple sources to indicate that changing the word "fellowship" to the word "cult" is an accurate revision. The only thing that I can see as possibly being considered vandalism is changing the website URL. If my restriction is removed, I will agree not to alter the URL for the official website, however in keeping with the community standards of ensuring accurate content, I won't refrain from posting information simply because it's a sore subject for this organization. But, it doesn't appear that the administrators are terribly concerned with accuracy here in Wikipedia.
BlueChord I hear where you're coming from. I understand your angst. However....
I am old enough to have skin as thick as leather and a penchant for sarcasm - - therefore --
If I were in your shoes, I'd be pleased to have stung the center of the "singularity of infinitesimal value" [thanks T-Bone] Me and my family have taken more than our fair share of painful barbs from the "singularity" (actually - no share is a fair share...I'm being sarcastic). So If I were in your shoes, I think I'd be dancing with joy to have been able to lob one back causing a wound that they found as annoying as this!
I'm not terribly worried about the end result of this, krys. I'm a truck driver by profession, so I don't have the time to pursue this regularly. What irritates me is that based on Wikipedia's own guidelines, I've done nothing wrong. I've pointed that out, but the administrators already seem to have their minds made up. And that's okay.
I'm not terribly worried about the end result of this, krys. I'm a truck driver by profession, so I don't have the time to pursue this regularly. What irritates me is that based on Wikipedia's own guidelines, I've done nothing wrong. I've pointed that out, but the administrators already seem to have their minds made up. And that's okay.
I know it's frustrating. I hear that in your posts on this thread.
Wikipedia apparently has a different interpretation of what "righting great wrongs" means than you do.
Thankfully, you can (and have) expressed your frustration. Perhaps another time another opportunity will arise to set this straight on their (wikipedia's) own terms.
Even more thankfully, TWI can't do anything to keep us from disclosing the truth here on Greasespot.
Hello BlueCord! Wikipedia may well be correct in their interpretation of their policy and guidelines. I've been through this ad nauseam in other unrelated areas of Wikipedia. I'm not sure I agree how they're describing their position but - well, take a look at a couple other entries for organizations that are very publicly labelled "cults" by many people including former members -
Yet if we look up "Cult" on Wikipedia we read a very broad discussion of the topic that starts with this:
Quote
The termcultusually refers to asocial groupdefined by itsreligious,spiritual, orphilosophicalbeliefs, or itscommon interestin a particular personality, object orgoal. The term itself is controversial and it has divergent definitions in bothpopular cultureandacademiaand it also has been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study.[1][2]In thesociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a social group withsocially deviantornovelbeliefs and practices,[3]although this is often unclear.[4][5][6]Other researchers present a less-organized picture of cults saying that they arise spontaneously around novel beliefs and practices.[7]Groups said to be cults range in size from local groups with a few members to international organizations with millions.[8]
And so on and so forth....
To your intent and point however, it could be appropriate to say something to the affect of the Way being considered a cult by many (for the following reasons)....etc. etc. Whether anyone believes that to be true or not, it has been a fairly consistent accusation historically since it's growth in the 70's and as such would simply be a statement of a significant fact reflecting a concern of society in regards to new religious "movements".
So the logic is kind of like saying "John Lennon once said that he felt The Beatles were more popular then Jesus, given the reactions of their fans around the world to their music".....as opposed to saying "John Lennon said The Beatles were more popular than Jesus"......both statements are "true" but arguably the first statement gives more information.
The Wikipedia page covers a great deal of information on The Way and in my opinion does a decent enough job - but you'll notice that while there's mention of Martindale's "sexual misconduct" and other issues, nothing's mentioned of that being an accusation made against his predecessor. VPW gets a pass on that - and that's buggy to me from a historical standpoint but - I get why that's probably the case, ashis accusations don't have any legal or formal record and Martindale's does....so a writer would be on safe ground to note LCM's history as it's a matter of court record, but VPW's problems with it such as they may have been - are not. Still and all it has become a very public part of the Way's history, of that there's no question.
And while reading it I think there's a very telling few lines about the Way West and East, and the era of Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.....it's this part under the paragraph "The Way":
"Some of the groups he met later incorporated as The Way East (based inRye, New York) and The Way West (based inMill Valley, California), groups that utilized Wierwille's PFAL class in their ministries.[10]Wierwille also recruited a number of new members on his trip, marking a period of large growth for his ministry. Wierwille later merged The Way East and The Way West into The Way Inc., now the Way International.[21][22]"
That very succinctly describes what happened, and the results of what they're calling a "merge" indicates the intent of VPW to grow his ministry's assets into a larger organization. But calling it a merger is like calling a shi t storm a reason to buy more toilet paper. Clearly the writers of the Wiki page are giving VPW a pass and making the earlier history of the Way dust free, while lightly covering the later problems that more people alive now are likely to know about.
Anyhoo - don't sweat it. Peace!!
Edited by socks This just in.....Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.....there is no spoon.
I'm not terribly worried about the end result of this, krys. I'm a truck driver by profession, so I don't have the time to pursue this regularly. What irritates me is that based on Wikipedia's own guidelines, I've done nothing wrong. I've pointed that out, but the administrators already seem to have their minds made up. And that's okay.
yeah sucks but on the plus side it's probably the Board of Dummies or a direct delegate you are competitively editing against LOL.
my advice is change your tune on the edit position - let them have their descriptive title like the other cults. get some edits in that show the truth in other ways, like the suggestion to include that many consider it a cult. Also, you can talk about retention rates, there is enough published data to show that the Way's long term overall retention rate of followers has to be under 5% for sure. And other ways to get the truth in there.
Vandalism. Hilarious. I can just see the dummies discussion about how it's just the same as spray-painting their stupid sign on the road. By those standards Jesus was a vandal so you are in good company.
Maybe you should try editing the "Cults" Wiki page?
Good idea. And with an overall retention rate of less than 5% you could enter it in a new page called "Cults That Suck".
To rank way under the Mormons, and Scientology in effectiveness.
Down just under the Jehovah's Witnesses stacked ranked by the poor treatment of followers.
I mean when you think about it, with that kind of retention rate the Way International ranks just slightly above Jim Jones and Jonestown. There were a couple kids there that ran into the woods and didn't get shot or drink the kool-aid.
I'm not terribly worried about it. But, the ban is permanent. I can't edit any articles, let alone the TWI one. It is what it is. I don't think there are too many people looking up TWI anyway. But, like I said earlier, I'm a truck driver. I've got more important things to do than argue with the folks over at wikipedia. It was a fun run while it lasted, though.
I'm not terribly worried about it. But, the ban is permanent. I can't edit any articles, let alone the TWI one. It is what it is. I don't think there are too many people looking up TWI anyway. But, like I said earlier, I'm a truck driver. I've got more important things to do than argue with the folks over at wikipedia. It was a fun run while it lasted, though.
Get a vpn and make a new account with a fresh email and user name.
If you end up taking OldSkool's advice, maybe you could take out the words "biblical research" from the line "biblical research, teaching and fellowship [[Christian ministry]]". There is no more biblical research going on.
Recommended Posts
OldSkool
Truth hurts
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Yes...yes! Did you hear that ?!?! Listen…
…somewhere in New Knoxville, Ohio…
…deep within a supermassive black hole…
…very close to the center…the singularity of infinitesimal value where extremely large amounts of bull$hit were crushed into an utterly dense plagiarist…
…there comes a single word…said in a restrained unison as if the word was escaping through the clenched teeth of the mighty pompous a$$holes…
“ouch”
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BlueCord
This is the conversation so far. It seems like they have someone on the inside at Wikipedia.
Request reason:
Decline reason:
equest reason:
Decline reason:
Request reason:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
BlueChord I hear where you're coming from. I understand your angst. However....
I am old enough to have skin as thick as leather and a penchant for sarcasm - - therefore --
If I were in your shoes, I'd be pleased to have stung the center of the "singularity of infinitesimal value" [thanks T-Bone] Me and my family have taken more than our fair share of painful barbs from the "singularity" (actually - no share is a fair share...I'm being sarcastic). So If I were in your shoes, I think I'd be dancing with joy to have been able to lob one back causing a wound that they found as annoying as this!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
BlueCord
I'm not terribly worried about the end result of this, krys. I'm a truck driver by profession, so I don't have the time to pursue this regularly. What irritates me is that based on Wikipedia's own guidelines, I've done nothing wrong. I've pointed that out, but the administrators already seem to have their minds made up. And that's okay.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I know it's frustrating. I hear that in your posts on this thread.
Wikipedia apparently has a different interpretation of what "righting great wrongs" means than you do.
Thankfully, you can (and have) expressed your frustration. Perhaps another time another opportunity will arise to set this straight on their (wikipedia's) own terms.
Even more thankfully, TWI can't do anything to keep us from disclosing the truth here on Greasespot.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Hello BlueCord! Wikipedia may well be correct in their interpretation of their policy and guidelines. I've been through this ad nauseam in other unrelated areas of Wikipedia. I'm not sure I agree how they're describing their position but - well, take a look at a couple other entries for organizations that are very publicly labelled "cults" by many people including former members -
Scientology's page opens with this line:
Scientology is a body of religious beliefs and practices launched in May 1952 by American author L. Ron Hubbard (1911–86).
LDS/Mormons open with this:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), often informally known as the Mormon Church, is a nontrinitarian, Christian restorationist church that is considered by its members to be the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus Christ.
Yet if we look up "Cult" on Wikipedia we read a very broad discussion of the topic that starts with this:
And so on and so forth....
To your intent and point however, it could be appropriate to say something to the affect of the Way being considered a cult by many (for the following reasons)....etc. etc. Whether anyone believes that to be true or not, it has been a fairly consistent accusation historically since it's growth in the 70's and as such would simply be a statement of a significant fact reflecting a concern of society in regards to new religious "movements".
So the logic is kind of like saying "John Lennon once said that he felt The Beatles were more popular then Jesus, given the reactions of their fans around the world to their music".....as opposed to saying "John Lennon said The Beatles were more popular than Jesus"......both statements are "true" but arguably the first statement gives more information.
The Wikipedia page covers a great deal of information on The Way and in my opinion does a decent enough job - but you'll notice that while there's mention of Martindale's "sexual misconduct" and other issues, nothing's mentioned of that being an accusation made against his predecessor. VPW gets a pass on that - and that's buggy to me from a historical standpoint but - I get why that's probably the case, ashis accusations don't have any legal or formal record and Martindale's does....so a writer would be on safe ground to note LCM's history as it's a matter of court record, but VPW's problems with it such as they may have been - are not. Still and all it has become a very public part of the Way's history, of that there's no question.
And while reading it I think there's a very telling few lines about the Way West and East, and the era of Jim Doop and Steve Heefner.....it's this part under the paragraph "The Way":
"Some of the groups he met later incorporated as The Way East (based in Rye, New York) and The Way West (based in Mill Valley, California), groups that utilized Wierwille's PFAL class in their ministries.[10] Wierwille also recruited a number of new members on his trip, marking a period of large growth for his ministry. Wierwille later merged The Way East and The Way West into The Way Inc., now the Way International.[21][22]"
That very succinctly describes what happened, and the results of what they're calling a "merge" indicates the intent of VPW to grow his ministry's assets into a larger organization. But calling it a merger is like calling a shi t storm a reason to buy more toilet paper. Clearly the writers of the Wiki page are giving VPW a pass and making the earlier history of the Way dust free, while lightly covering the later problems that more people alive now are likely to know about.
Anyhoo - don't sweat it. Peace!!
Edited by socksThis just in.....Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.....there is no spoon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
yeah sucks but on the plus side it's probably the Board of Dummies or a direct delegate you are competitively editing against LOL.
my advice is change your tune on the edit position - let them have their descriptive title like the other cults. get some edits in that show the truth in other ways, like the suggestion to include that many consider it a cult. Also, you can talk about retention rates, there is enough published data to show that the Way's long term overall retention rate of followers has to be under 5% for sure. And other ways to get the truth in there.
Vandalism. Hilarious. I can just see the dummies discussion about how it's just the same as spray-painting their stupid sign on the road. By those standards Jesus was a vandal so you are in good company.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Maybe you should try editing the "Cults" Wiki page?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Good idea. And with an overall retention rate of less than 5% you could enter it in a new page called "Cults That Suck".
To rank way under the Mormons, and Scientology in effectiveness.
Down just under the Jehovah's Witnesses stacked ranked by the poor treatment of followers.
I mean when you think about it, with that kind of retention rate the Way International ranks just slightly above Jim Jones and Jonestown. There were a couple kids there that ran into the woods and didn't get shot or drink the kool-aid.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
BlueCord
I'm not terribly worried about it. But, the ban is permanent. I can't edit any articles, let alone the TWI one. It is what it is. I don't think there are too many people looking up TWI anyway. But, like I said earlier, I'm a truck driver. I've got more important things to do than argue with the folks over at wikipedia. It was a fun run while it lasted, though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Get a vpn and make a new account with a fresh email and user name.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Taxidev
If you end up taking OldSkool's advice, maybe you could take out the words "biblical research" from the line "biblical research, teaching and fellowship [[Christian ministry]]". There is no more biblical research going on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.