I remember in residence sometimes we sat and listened to detailed info about the Wierwille family and their history and blah de blah. I was wondering what the heck that had to do with God's Word. Were we about God and His Word or about the Wierwilles? Why were they so special? Didn't we all matter? Aren't we all members of the body of Christ? What a bunch of huey!
I thought that, exactly. Happily, I don't think I could remember a thing within minutes afterwards. I certainly have no recollection now, and please, nobody remind me!
I remember in residence sometimes we sat and listened to detailed info about the Wierwille family and their history and blah de blah. I was wondering what the heck that had to do with God's Word. Were we about God and His Word or about the Wierwilles? Why were they so special? Didn't we all matter? Aren't we all members of the body of Christ? What a bunch of huey!
It's kind of interesting to see where all that went over the years. The Wierwille family legacy was a hot topic for a while, and JP and Sarah's(VP youngest daughter) boys were the focus to be predestined to take the Word to their generation or some such hooeeeey. So JP and Sarah left the Way and joined CFFM. I guess that wasn't in the revelation. Then their son V2P2 is the one that started up that other Corpse training on the farm where he gets to act like some cult leader.
So did that time of focus ingrain something in that little kid to cause him to Jonestown out on his own little farm and re-instate the 5 Corpse principles?
I remember seeing "A Day with the Wierwilles" while in residence with the 13th Corps. I do not remember a lot of it, but I do remember that VPW had said in it that Luke Somerville (son of John and Mary Wierwille Somerville) should be "groomed" to be the third president of the Way (which, as we know, ended up being Rosalie Rivenbark). I also remember hearing Don Wierwille say he did not really agree with the premise that the stand of the Wierwille family was so crucial to the Way continuing. As I recall, the "day" in question was during a holiday vacation at Gunnison in 1982.
DWBH......I have considered that little vp's older siblings had something to do with it, but not his mother.
Mrs. Wierwille's book sheds light on vp having issues in early childhood and not developing as he should:
On 7/28/2018 at 10:09 AM, skyrider said:
Many of us have heard the stories of wierwille's childhood and how he hid in the woods to avoid farm work.........but Dotsie gives us earlier information as well:
Mrs. W's book, page 7 ---- "Victor Paul was born to Ernst and Emma Wierwille on December 31, 1916, in the same farmhouse his forefathers had built. He was born the last of seven children: Ella Maria (born in July 1896, lived only two months and twenty-seven days), Lydia (1897), Otto (1900), Sevilla (1904), Harry Ernst (1907), Reuben (1912), and Victor (1916). Although Victor appeared to be a healthy newborn, his mother noticed after a short time that he was not developing as he should. Emma prayed for her baby, as her manner was. The doctor couldn't seem to find a cause for Victor's problem; in those days people just called it "short growth." Ernst and Emma , in seeking help for their baby, called the revered minister of their church, the Reverend L. H. Kunst, to come and water baptize him. This was the best thing they knew to do, and they acted accordingly."
Also, there are stories of Lydia [or Sevilla], the older sister, needing to "tutor" young victor thru his homework. Victor was a *needy* child........and all this pampering and attention looks like it had long-term effects on his psyche, psychological and social development.
Besides having this "short growth" problem.........years later, was vp molested, mocked, or bullied for being weak, sickly, different?
How did vp cope with all this internally, psychologically? And, the more he hid in the woods, the more his introversion affected him.......and needed a countermeasure, an outlet. Was this the mechanism that spurred his narcissistic personality disorder? What other traits did vp succumb to in this heavy-handed rural german lineage? Did young vp feel like an outcast in his own family and hide in the woods, not just to avoid work, but for refuge [trying to internally process his psychological pathologies]?
Then, by age 12-18......young vic is employing all forms of attention-getting schemes to be noticed: singing/playing a guitar in a small quirky band, crazy tricks on a motorcycle, a prankster, a bully to others. And, those of things that we know of........but what about the things that were hidden?
DWBH....with your many years of professional background in this area, I would certainly welcome your thoughts. Always appreciate your input.
DWBH......I have considered that little vp's older siblings had something to do with it, but not his mother.
Mrs. Wierwille's book sheds light on vp having issues in early childhood and not developing as he should:
Besides having this "short growth" problem.........years later, was vp molested, mocked, or bullied for being weak, sickly, different?
How did vp cope with all this internally, psychologically? And, the more he hid in the woods, the more his introversion affected him.......and needed a countermeasure, an outlet. Was this the mechanism that spurred his narcissistic personality disorder? What other traits did vp succumb to in this heavy-handed rural german lineage? Did young vp feel like an outcast in his own family and hide in the woods, not just to avoid work, but for refuge [trying to internally process his psychological pathologies]?
Then, by age 12-18......young vic is employing all forms of attention-getting schemes to be noticed: singing/playing a guitar in a small quirky band, crazy tricks on a motorcycle, a prankster, a bully to others. And, those of things that we know of........but what about the things that were hidden?
DWBH....with your many years of professional background in this area, I would certainly welcome your thoughts. Always appreciate your input.
I think you have it backwards. Who said he was "INTROVERTED"? He was self-absorbed. Later, it was obvious he was narcissistic. In short, it was always ABOUT HIM.
He hid in the woods because he was too good to do manual labor or chores. He was a center of attention when he was small, at home. When the traveling minister showed up and everyone paid attention, vpw told him he wanted to be like him. He was a show-off as an adolescent. If Old Man Wierwille had really been a control freak, normal people might want to get out from under his thumb. vpw wanted to be free to skip doing work and to make it all about HIS will being done, not his old man's will. I think vpw got the idea, early on, that it could always be about him, and he lived his life trying to grab attention and act accordingly.
I think you have it backwards. Who said he was "INTROVERTED"? He was self-absorbed. Later, it was obvious he was narcissistic. In short, it was always ABOUT HIM.
He hid in the woods because he was too good to do manual labor or chores. He was a center of attention when he was small, at home. When the traveling minister showed up and everyone paid attention, vpw told him he wanted to be like him. He was a show-off as an adolescent. If Old Man Wierwille had really been a control freak, normal people might want to get out from under his thumb. vpw wanted to be free to skip doing work and to make it all about HIS will being done, not his old man's will. I think vpw got the idea, early on, that it could always be about him, and he lived his life trying to grab attention and act accordingly.
Yeah.....I agree "self-absorbed" would state it much better.
Whether young wierwille was molested, mocked and/or bullied for an extended period of time as a young lad.........would go a long way in explaining how victor paul wierwille grew up to be this sexual predator and narcissistic bully.
Yeah.....I agree "self-absorbed" would state it much better.
Whether young wierwille was molested, mocked and/or bullied for an extended period of time as a young lad.........would go a long way in explaining how victor paul wierwille grew up to be this sexual predator and narcissistic bully.
Well, not that dark or anything, but definitely being the youngest of 6 children is an aspect. The baby of a large family. 6 children over 19 years. When Vic was born, the family dynamics looked like:
Reuben - 4
Harry - 9
Sevilla - 13
Otto - 17
Lydia - 20
Babies of families are often known for certain characteristics - pampered, get away with murder, attention-seeking, bullied by older siblings, parents are too old and tired for strict standards, used to getting their own way.
Of course not every youngest child of 6 becomes a VPW, but there are certain family dynamics that are absolutely present in his childhood as a fertile ground for the narcissist to develop. I do believe that mentally ill people bear responsibility for awareness and treatment of their illness. These traits sound like they were unchecked through his teenage years with the attitudes and stunts noted above in this thread. Homiletics as a field of study is the perfect breeding ground for the narcissist - it's all about 'me' - how do ' I ' look? How are people responding to ME?
With all the misogynistic views on women, some of that was part of that staunch German culture, who knows what demons are in the background there when you think about the origins to some of his perverseness.
Anyway my thoughts / contributions on the topic. For the .03 with inflation they are worth. LOL.
If we want to continue reaching people wanting to exit twi, my view is to not speculate about things like whether VP was molested as a child unless there's something concrete that points to it.
If we want to continue reaching people wanting to exit twi, my view is to not speculate about things like whether VP was molested as a child unless there's something concrete that points to it.
Rocky.......I agree. There is plenty in wierwille's history and manner of life that obliterates twi's manufactured mystique of the man.
That's why I asked for more clarification on the molesting allegation.
Besides having this "short growth" problem.........years later, was vp molested, mocked, or bullied for being weak, sickly, different?
If we want to continue reaching people wanting to exit twi, my view is to not speculate about things like whether VP was molested as a child unless there's something concrete that points to it.
Rocky, good point. However, VPW grew up in a very rural area of the country; having grown up in one myself, I wonder if there is any way to prove, or disprove allegations about what happened to VPW as a child. Many things happened in families that outsiders never knew about. What happened in the home, stayed in the home. I don't think we will ever really know what forces drove VPW to be the man he became. I for one, believe that VPW came from dysfunctional family; to me, it "fits like a hand in a glove." However, I do think that your point is good; it would be wonderful if we had concrete information about VPW's family.
Rocky, good point. However, VPW grew up in a very rural area of the country; having grown up in one myself, I wonder if there is any way to prove, or disprove allegations about what happened to VPW as a child. Many things happened in families that outsiders never knew about. What happened in the home, stayed in the home. I don't think we will ever really know what forces drove VPW to be the man he became. I for one, believe that VPW came from dysfunctional family; to me, it "fits like a hand in a glove." However, I do think that your point is good; it would be wonderful if we had concrete information about VPW's family.
Right... and until we do, we should not suggest specifics about things we don't know. It's fair, of course, to say you believe he grew up in a dysfunctional family.
I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. I believed that person then and still do today. If you wish to turn this into a he said/she said argument, I will not join in. I am quite secure in my statement. I don’t really care what other people think. Don’t mean to be haughty or off putting about any of this. If you are offended I apologize for offending you. I just want you to know that what I posted is not a homespun fantasy. It is simply another cog in the wheel of wicked deeds that dictor suffered and then turned on the innocent with the vengeance and “maturity” of a petulant toddler.
"I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. "
That changes a lot. You said nothing about where you got that from. It could have been opinion and speculation- since you didn't say anything about getting it from an eyewitness.
I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. I believed that person then and still do today. If you wish to turn this into a he said/she said argument, I will not join in. I am quite secure in my statement. I don’t really care what other people think. Don’t mean to be haughty or off-putting about any of this. If you are offended I apologize for offending you. I just want you to know that what I posted is not a homespun fantasy. It is simply another cog in the wheel of wicked deeds that dictor suffered and then turned on the innocent with the vengeance and “maturity” of a petulant toddler.
This person considered that s(he) was an “adopted child” of the Wierwille’s, just like Bill Maize. This witness grew up in New Knoxville with the Kipps and Wierwilles. The only other “adopted child” admitted by dic’n’ Dotsie was Bill Maize.
I know that this witness is true. Everything this witness said was corroborated by Dee Fischbaugh, Dotsie’s sister and the Mayor Of New Knoxville when I was in-Rez corpse. It was also corroborated by Lydia and Sevilla Wierwille and Alford Kipp, Dotsie’s brother. Also corroborated by Dotsie’s older brother who was also an ordained clergyman of the Evangelical and Reformed Church in Ohio. I had lengthy conversations about dic’n’Dotsie with ALL of them. I KNOW whereof I speak. YOU don’t! Thank you for reading.
Ah, I meant that the earlier post said nothing about that coming directly from an eyewitness, so it could have been speculation. Once you posted that it came from one, that was completely different- since eyewitness accounts carry much more weight than speculation. I wasn't asking for MORE information, I was wishing you'd said the second thing when you said the first thing, all in the same post.
No problem Wolfie! I was directing no personal animus toward you. I seem to have developed a reflexive response when questioned about facts which I know to be true. My “sources” were afforded me mainly through serendipity. Just happened to be in the right or wrong place at the right time! LOL! I apologize for coming off as angry or gruff................peace.
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Twinky
I thought that, exactly. Happily, I don't think I could remember a thing within minutes afterwards. I certainly have no recollection now, and please, nobody remind me!
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chockfull
It's kind of interesting to see where all that went over the years. The Wierwille family legacy was a hot topic for a while, and JP and Sarah's(VP youngest daughter) boys were the focus to be predestined to take the Word to their generation or some such hooeeeey. So JP and Sarah left the Way and joined CFFM. I guess that wasn't in the revelation. Then their son V2P2 is the one that started up that other Corpse training on the farm where he gets to act like some cult leader.
So did that time of focus ingrain something in that little kid to cause him to Jonestown out on his own little farm and re-instate the 5 Corpse principles?
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DogLover
I remember seeing "A Day with the Wierwilles" while in residence with the 13th Corps. I do not remember a lot of it, but I do remember that VPW had said in it that Luke Somerville (son of John and Mary Wierwille Somerville) should be "groomed" to be the third president of the Way (which, as we know, ended up being Rosalie Rivenbark). I also remember hearing Don Wierwille say he did not really agree with the premise that the stand of the Wierwille family was so crucial to the Way continuing. As I recall, the "day" in question was during a holiday vacation at Gunnison in 1982.
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DontWorryBeHappy
“I seriously doubt that few will ever uncover the reasons why wierwille roamed the grounds at night......”
Well Sky, maybe it might have something to do with the FACT that little vp was molested by his mother from ages 2-5?? Could be, no??
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, his mother?? Dear God. The more I learn about VPW'S childhood, the more I want to vomit!!!
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skyrider
DWBH......I have considered that little vp's older siblings had something to do with it, but not his mother.
Mrs. Wierwille's book sheds light on vp having issues in early childhood and not developing as he should:
Besides having this "short growth" problem.........years later, was vp molested, mocked, or bullied for being weak, sickly, different?
How did vp cope with all this internally, psychologically? And, the more he hid in the woods, the more his introversion affected him.......and needed a countermeasure, an outlet. Was this the mechanism that spurred his narcissistic personality disorder? What other traits did vp succumb to in this heavy-handed rural german lineage? Did young vp feel like an outcast in his own family and hide in the woods, not just to avoid work, but for refuge [trying to internally process his psychological pathologies]?
Then, by age 12-18......young vic is employing all forms of attention-getting schemes to be noticed: singing/playing a guitar in a small quirky band, crazy tricks on a motorcycle, a prankster, a bully to others. And, those of things that we know of........but what about the things that were hidden?
DWBH....with your many years of professional background in this area, I would certainly welcome your thoughts. Always appreciate your input.
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WordWolf
I think you have it backwards. Who said he was "INTROVERTED"? He was self-absorbed. Later, it was obvious he was narcissistic. In short, it was always ABOUT HIM.
He hid in the woods because he was too good to do manual labor or chores. He was a center of attention when he was small, at home. When the traveling minister showed up and everyone paid attention, vpw told him he wanted to be like him. He was a show-off as an adolescent. If Old Man Wierwille had really been a control freak, normal people might want to get out from under his thumb. vpw wanted to be free to skip doing work and to make it all about HIS will being done, not his old man's will. I think vpw got the idea, early on, that it could always be about him, and he lived his life trying to grab attention and act accordingly.
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skyrider
Yeah.....I agree "self-absorbed" would state it much better.
Whether young wierwille was molested, mocked and/or bullied for an extended period of time as a young lad.........would go a long way in explaining how victor paul wierwille grew up to be this sexual predator and narcissistic bully.
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chockfull
Well, not that dark or anything, but definitely being the youngest of 6 children is an aspect. The baby of a large family. 6 children over 19 years. When Vic was born, the family dynamics looked like:
Reuben - 4
Harry - 9
Sevilla - 13
Otto - 17
Lydia - 20
Babies of families are often known for certain characteristics - pampered, get away with murder, attention-seeking, bullied by older siblings, parents are too old and tired for strict standards, used to getting their own way.
Of course not every youngest child of 6 becomes a VPW, but there are certain family dynamics that are absolutely present in his childhood as a fertile ground for the narcissist to develop. I do believe that mentally ill people bear responsibility for awareness and treatment of their illness. These traits sound like they were unchecked through his teenage years with the attitudes and stunts noted above in this thread. Homiletics as a field of study is the perfect breeding ground for the narcissist - it's all about 'me' - how do ' I ' look? How are people responding to ME?
With all the misogynistic views on women, some of that was part of that staunch German culture, who knows what demons are in the background there when you think about the origins to some of his perverseness.
Anyway my thoughts / contributions on the topic. For the .03 with inflation they are worth. LOL.
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Rocky
If we want to continue reaching people wanting to exit twi, my view is to not speculate about things like whether VP was molested as a child unless there's something concrete that points to it.
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skyrider
Rocky.......I agree. There is plenty in wierwille's history and manner of life that obliterates twi's manufactured mystique of the man.
That's why I asked for more clarification on the molesting allegation.
Besides having this "short growth" problem.........years later, was vp molested, mocked, or bullied for being weak, sickly, different?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, good point. However, VPW grew up in a very rural area of the country; having grown up in one myself, I wonder if there is any way to prove, or disprove allegations about what happened to VPW as a child. Many things happened in families that outsiders never knew about. What happened in the home, stayed in the home. I don't think we will ever really know what forces drove VPW to be the man he became. I for one, believe that VPW came from dysfunctional family; to me, it "fits like a hand in a glove." However, I do think that your point is good; it would be wonderful if we had concrete information about VPW's family.
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Rocky
Right... and until we do, we should not suggest specifics about things we don't know. It's fair, of course, to say you believe he grew up in a dysfunctional family.
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DontWorryBeHappy
I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. I believed that person then and still do today. If you wish to turn this into a he said/she said argument, I will not join in. I am quite secure in my statement. I don’t really care what other people think. Don’t mean to be haughty or off putting about any of this. If you are offended I apologize for offending you. I just want you to know that what I posted is not a homespun fantasy. It is simply another cog in the wheel of wicked deeds that dictor suffered and then turned on the innocent with the vengeance and “maturity” of a petulant toddler.
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WordWolf
"I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. "
That changes a lot. You said nothing about where you got that from. It could have been opinion and speculation- since you didn't say anything about getting it from an eyewitness.
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DontWorryBeHappy
I was told the information I posted by a very close and personal friend of Mrs. Wierwille who also was on her personal staff. I believed that person then and still do today. If you wish to turn this into a he said/she said argument, I will not join in. I am quite secure in my statement. I don’t really care what other people think. Don’t mean to be haughty or off-putting about any of this. If you are offended I apologize for offending you. I just want you to know that what I posted is not a homespun fantasy. It is simply another cog in the wheel of wicked deeds that dictor suffered and then turned on the innocent with the vengeance and “maturity” of a petulant toddler.
This person considered that s(he) was an “adopted child” of the Wierwille’s, just like Bill Maize. This witness grew up in New Knoxville with the Kipps and Wierwilles. The only other “adopted child” admitted by dic’n’ Dotsie was Bill Maize.
I know that this witness is true. Everything this witness said was corroborated by Dee Fischbaugh, Dotsie’s sister and the Mayor Of New Knoxville when I was in-Rez corpse. It was also corroborated by Lydia and Sevilla Wierwille and Alford Kipp, Dotsie’s brother. Also corroborated by Dotsie’s older brother who was also an ordained clergyman of the Evangelical and Reformed Church in Ohio. I had lengthy conversations about dic’n’Dotsie with ALL of them. I KNOW whereof I speak. YOU don’t! Thank you for reading.
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WordWolf
Ah, I meant that the earlier post said nothing about that coming directly from an eyewitness, so it could have been speculation. Once you posted that it came from one, that was completely different- since eyewitness accounts carry much more weight than speculation. I wasn't asking for MORE information, I was wishing you'd said the second thing when you said the first thing, all in the same post.
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DontWorryBeHappy
No problem Wolfie! I was directing no personal animus toward you. I seem to have developed a reflexive response when questioned about facts which I know to be true. My “sources” were afforded me mainly through serendipity. Just happened to be in the right or wrong place at the right time! LOL! I apologize for coming off as angry or gruff................peace.
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