I think actually the Way's use of the word "gift" kind of ruins the way we use the word in normal conversation in society. Like for example, seeing a girl twirl high above the earth wrapped only in a long silk scarf one would normally exclaim "that girl has a gift".
Typically we would mean that in the sense that the girl has developed herself into great kinesthetic understanding and display. We would encourage the girl to "develop her gift".
Or in another sense, a friend of mine has a troubled son. He is spoken of as having a "gift for getting in trouble". He also gets in fights. So my friend instead of having his son develop his gifts in the direction of being a prison gang leader, he is exerting a more positive influence and enrolling him in mixed martial arts classes so he can instead have a career in the UFC.
But Wayspeak we would be correcting that midstream. Oh, no, the only Biblically accurate usages of the word "gift" are either holy spirit non-capitalized, or gift ministries, which are these magical things that work just like the manifestations, except with extra power. So when a "gift ministry" person would operate manifestations, whooo laa laa, we were to expect fireworks. Like, you know, listening to the Veepster speak in tongues. Oh wait. That just sounded like preschool nonsense Italian all the time LOL.
And I'll tell you, the higher up the chain you would climb interacting with people in the Way, the less you would see of the miraculous, and the more you would see of the pettiness of Machiavellian rule.
It was in my understanding that as an individual you would not see what your gift was. Rather focus instead on the journey and others around you would see your fruit and know what your gift was.
Whenever someone is bragging about their gift, I hear that as ego and pride.
It was in my understanding that as an individual you would not see what your gift was. Rather focus instead on the journey and others around you would see your fruit and know what your gift was.
Whenever someone is bragging about their gift, I hear that as ego and pride.
So as an individual functioning, you would not tend to notice in what area your talents are showing results? Or are you saying this is a Zen kind of thing? Just stay your mind on stringing those chairs, and people walking by will know you're a pastor?
People with talent who brag about it are intolerable in any field, sport, group, or sense.
Those with talent who display humility are usually universally loved.
So as an individual functioning, you would not tend to notice in what area your talents are showing results? Or are you saying this is a Zen kind of thing? Just stay your mind on stringing those chairs, and people walking by will know you're a pastor?
These gifts are given to the body of believers. They are not for helping the individual. So as an individual, having a gift gives you no benefit.
Aligning chairs is more a deacon thing [tending to the details of the infrastructure of the group]. We own a rental realestate property that we are remodeling. One of our first tenants is a small street ministry church. A year ago we dropped out from attending a Way Ministry fellowship, and began going to this church instead. Every service their pews are pushed around and out-of-place. So I go in as the landlord on Saturdays and I re-align the pews. I do it because it bugs me otherwise. I certainly do not see this as any act of a gift ministry, but just a tiny part of what needs to happen to make the place inviting.
These gifts are given to the body of believers. They are not for helping the individual. So as an individual, having a gift gives you no benefit.
Aligning chairs is more a deacon thing [tending to the details of the infrastructure of the group]. We own a rental realestate property that we are remodeling. One of our first tenants is a small street ministry church. A year ago we dropped out from attending a Way Ministry fellowship, and began going to this church instead. Every service their pews are pushed around and out-of-place. So I go in as the landlord on Saturdays and I re-align the pews. I do it because it bugs me otherwise. I certainly do not see this as any act of a gift ministry, but just a tiny part of what needs to happen to make the place inviting.
Yes I'm aware of the Way jargon explanation. However, it's inaccurate. If you as an individual give to others, God gives back to you. So you do indirectly benefit. Furthermore, as I was indicating in the first post on this thread, besides the party line "these gifts are given to the body of believers", when you start to take a look at what that actually looks like, it is somewhat eye-opening.
For example, the gift of an apostle given to the body of believers looks like what? Or a prophet? Or a pastor? What did it look like in the Way? How about now?
Mainstream Christianity doesn't speak in terms of gift ministries. They speak in terms of "pastors", "associate pastors", etc. which is a term of function, not of gift.
What is a "deacon thing"? Even in the Corpse the Way big top tent always had chairs strung by Corpse. And we were all these "gift ministry" types doing that. Or whatever. That's what they were teaching us. And the leaders large and in charge were certainly making their gifts known. What do "deacons" do? Deac? And elders eld? See I can drum up some PLAF jargon myself if needed.
In mainstream Christianity I've experienced recently, a "gift ministry" if you asked a deacon or an elder about it would probably talk about how they evaluate teaching pastors. It's easy. How much weekly revenue do they generate?
Your small church sounds like a cool grassroots thing going on, and you have a personal connection there. Your service from the heart as a landlord to straighten chairs is not to be discounted. It catches God's attention where the blathering of people's ego on knowledge of scriptures fails to. Ministering to others is a gift to them. Whether it is a simple thing to make them feel better like aligning chairs, or more complicated involving more involvement in their lives.
That's the simplicity of it.
The more people talk "gift ministry" constructs, the more it starts to sound like the tower of Babel century 2000. With positional hierarchy like blatherers and janitors.
Your suggestion of a person with a gift ministry gives to the church (the believers) and God gives back to him, doesn't mean that the believers have not been "blessed". Perhaps God gives back to your strong abilities (gift) which makes you only more effective at it. If you are particularly adept at teaching you will be strengthened in this "gift".
Your suggestion of a person with a gift ministry gives to the church (the believers) and God gives back to him, doesn't mean that the believers have not been "blessed". Perhaps God gives back to your strong abilities (gift) which makes you only more effective at it. If you are particularly adept at teaching you will be strengthened in this "gift".
I was not suggesting the believers have not been "blessed". I mean sometimes they aren't because it's a person presenting ego in the form of a supposed gift, but that's another story. But by and large the law of giving rewards everyone involved.
So what do you believe modern day apostles "gift" should or do look like to the church? How about "prophets" or the other 3 the Way lists together? Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers?
Frankly, I'm not so convinced (at least, not as convinced like I might have been years ago) that these gift ministries "once given" equates to and/or necessarily means "always there." They're given to... whom? The individual, or the church? Okay, I get that they refer the function of an individual within the body. But, exactly what does that mean? That individuals can never function differently if the situation in (or needs of) the church change? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe somebody else here can enlighten me on what the truth really is.
However, what I am sure of, is that twi made far, Far, FAR too big a deal and much "to do" over these "5 gift ministries" and who supposedly did or didn't have them.
Frankly, I'm not so convinced (at least, not as convinced like I might have been years ago) that these gift ministries "once given" equates to and/or necessarily means "always there." They're given to... whom? The individual, or the church? Okay, I get that the refer the function of an individual within the body. But, exactly what does that mean? That individuals can never function differently if the situation in (or needs of) the church change? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe somebody else here can enlighten me on what the truth really is.
However, what I am sure of, is that twi made far, Far, FAR too big a deal and much "to do" over these "5 gift ministries" and who supposedly did or didn't have them.
Yes I'm with you on that, and even examining what they supposedly are when they are "once given". It was always taught the gift was to the church. But in the Way it wasn't so much what was taught as it was what was modeled behind the scenes.
I mean "pastors" take care of the flock - it's an inherent definition. Even tent evangelists like Billy Graham were known and what they did - give a powerful emotional sermon and bring people to Christ then turn them over to a local church for ongoing growth. Teachers is a generic word - could convey anything from public education to training settings to other education. Prophets are largely looked upon as OT figures by most modern Christians. And the apostles as the first few heads of the church.
But VP had to revitalize it all and re-teach all these ministries - now for an example, an apostle just wasn't Paul the one born out of time or Peter, but a generic definition of "one who brings new light to their generation". Well, who did VP have in mind to fill those shoes with a snow-on-the-gas-pumps story? Make him unique, like Paul. Better than all the other generic Christian brands. I had even heard talk about how VP was so unique he was the only one that fulfilled all 5 gift ministries or operated them or had them or whatever.
It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget:
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)
It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget:
Quote
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)
In 1978, 1979..........wierwille DID mention those with gifts of helps, organization and "governments" at those after-corps-night meetings and/or staff meetings at hq. There were several clergy at hq who were ensconced at twi for years........and wierwille spoke up on their behalf. I specifically remember it, because some had questions why people like Mark Gluck!n, Claudette R0yal and others were *permanent fixtures* at hq and not on the field.
Once we entered into the 1980's........I don't remember wierwille or anyone else ever mentioning this again.
It seems, here on the field in my area, after the fall of LCM, these gifts to the church were only glossed over. There was no real emphasis on them, only checking with "spiritual leadership" when making big decisions. Like, all of a sudden, when we are born again we become imbeciles that can't plan our lives.
But it didn't take long for even that to fade, so much so that the branch and fellowship coordinators all but ignored people and just focused on the business of the ministry, outreach, and teaching the dictated (from HQ) themes.
In 1978, 1979..........wierwille DID mention those with gifts of helps, organization and "governments" at those after-corps-night meetings and/or staff meetings at hq. There were several clergy at hq who were ensconced at twi for years........and wierwille spoke up on their behalf. I specifically remember it, because some had questions why people like Mark Gluck!n, Claudette R0yal and others were *permanent fixtures* at hq and not on the field.
Once we entered into the 1980's........I don't remember wierwille or anyone else ever mentioning this again.
.
I remember some of this teaching on helps and governments surrounding Rosalie's takeover / installation. This also was used as an excuse why the Board of Dummies at HQ doesn't travel much but sits there planning more events at HQ where they don't have to move again.
I have been thinking more about this topic. Do I agree with the mainstream Christianity assessment that there are only prophets in the OT and the apostles were Peter and Paul, and the others describe functions not gifts?
I'm not 100% sold on that. I do see in the scriptures special energizings by God. What I don't see is the attached pyramid scheme sold by the Way International in conjunction with it. For example, those apostles and prophets along with the helps and governments "specialty" lifetime functions in positions the Way does. Tiered salary structures according to the supposed importance of the gift, like corporate business. Machiavellian activity. Basically the type of morality that I would see Jesus confronting by kicking over the money tables in the temple. People selling their souls for a morsel of bread. Former janitors and window cleaners now large and in charge and their head inflates and what becomes most important is not "it is written", it is "it is position". Policies are decided according to quotes from "Louis Columbo 3:16" (RFR's BFF lawsuit lawyer) as opposed to scriptural teachings by Jesus or Paul or Peter.
"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". Rom. 11:29
IMO there is a tinfoil hat version of understanding this verse, and a logical common man way of understanding this verse:
Tinfoil: I was subjected to a corporate hazing for 4 years that left me with a nametag and an assignment and a position and a title. I heard prophecy spoken over me that contained some qualities. Thus I am entitled to a ring for people to kiss, a position, a salary, and servants. Thus throughout my lifetime I will also be entitled to all of this, and people are responsible to provide it for me. I am cemented in to a corporate cultural hierarchy of absolute obedience, or shunning if I break ranks.
Common Logic: I grew up with natural talents in areas. Or at least one, and hopes to have talent in one other or something. God helps me develop them and energizes me and inspires me as I do. As I grow older these don't depart.
I do believe in special energizings of God in individuals.
... Thus I am entitled to a ring for people to kiss, a position, a salary, and servants. Thus throughout my lifetime I will also be entitled to all of this, and people are responsible to provide it for me. I am cemented in to a corporate cultural hierarchy of absolute obedience, or shunning if I break ranks.
This was a topic that was always puzzling to me. Mostly because I would watch what people who other people told me were these "gift ministries" and see what they did.
Looking at the verse where these are listed:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
I don't see anything about them being ministries, nor gifts, nor gift ministries. I see they were partly for the work of the ministry. So, that description by VPW apparently came out of thin air.
It also states, quite clearly, that these were for the edifying of the body of Christ, not the lording of certain individuals, not for the admiration of certain individuals, not for the special treatment of certain individuals. So calling them "gift ministries" and declaring who had them is obviously another form of manipulation.
I know that we can look at anything TWI has done and still does that elevates any person above another as anti-Christ activity, because Jesus Christ is the head, and all the rest of us are the body. Doesn't 1 Cor 12 describe how no one part of the body is any better than any other? So TWI giving more importance to anyone is against the Word of God.
Okay, I get that they refer the function of an individual within the body. But, exactly what does that mean? That individuals can never function differently if the situation in (or needs of) the church change? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe somebody else here can enlighten me on what the truth really is.
Paul gives us a clue, I think.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
But this could mean, Timothy was an evangelist so he should do his job, or he was not an evangelist but he needs to act like one for one reason or another.
If it is the second case, then I would say the function can change.
And then, in response to:
On 7/16/2018 at 1:21 PM, TLC said:
Frankly, I'm not so convinced (at least, not as convinced like I might have been years ago) that these gift ministries "once given" equates to and/or necessarily means "always there."
maybe you are seeing something that wasn't so obvious. Maybe God activates these "gift ministries", for lack of a better term, as He sees fit for the body, or maybe enables us to act in that capacity where there is a need. This is worth further study.
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ — 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
NKJV
In verse 11 above it lists five services for the edification of the body of Christ that could perhaps be called gift ministries. However, instead of gift ministries it says "work of ministry".
Gift ministries - a short hand term for the stuff in Ephesians 4:10 - 12. They're gifts, they're ministries, etc. I don't spend much time tripping on that one.
Today we have a collection of scripture from which to establish a usable context for the Christian message, religion, belief, history, etc. And we have a "New Testament" of writings.
From which I gather that all of the things specifically listed in Ephesians 4:11 are also generally the kinds of things that followers of Jesus Christ are able to do, or can be doing let's say.
The Way's teaching sub text for 4:11 was that all those born again had the "same measure of faith" that wasn't received or achieved by their effort and wasn't earned but is given equally to all who believe in Christ. The "gift" of "holy spirit", pneuma hagion. There are therefore no special accoutrements that are given to some and not others. All are enabled with the "enablements", and that is whatever well, whatever we're told in the New Testament.
So - without going into a lot of detail we're probably all familiar with I think one has to ask themselves what makes these 5 things different from anything else the born again child of God receives in the gift of the new birth?
Today I would assume from what the NT says every born again child of God....
Can apostle - and is sent to bring the message of Christ to others.
Can be a prophet - and speak for God and on God's behalf.
Can teach - and teach the Word of God.
Can pastor - and provide support and care for the church, the "flock".
Can be an evangelist - and act as an ambassador for Christ and tell others about HIm.
....Without a special dispensation from God to the Church.
Where this has gone for me is a slightly different view of what the "Church" is, and what exactly the "body of Christ is", and what God through Christ is doing ... with all this. Man's "Church" is largely a collection of traditions and tangibles that deal with the physical world and lives and so that needs support and provision, ordnance and protection even.....but....a lot of that deals with the affairs of a kingdom that is not part of what God is actually building and won't be resurrected in a future phase.
One point I would call out is that it appears these 5 things listed in Ephesians (and referred to elsewhere too) and termed for "the work of the ministry" is for a specific kind of function or "office" within the church. And that carries a hella bunch of baggage with it in today's religion, but not if it's viewed in an Ephesians context, a "spiritual one" where there's no phoney man made construct. A function or even call it a "distribution" isn't a job or a position. Man thinks up and down and sideways, hierarchically - in the Kingdom of God there's no big hierarchy of mid management, which is how I think the religious version sees it.
Anyway, however we view it we're given very clear instructions by both Jesus and "Paul" on how we should treat each other, think of ourselves and conduct our affairs in this life, as His followers, children of God and it isn't political or economic - it's social, familial. Abusive behaviors and practices in the Church by people doing "the work of the ministry" always reveal a departure from the fundamentals of our faith.
It's not nearly as exotic or complex as we might make it - Jesus told us don't act prideful, don't put yourself above others, don't be an ass hole and treat people like shi t and they should be grateful you even talk to them. Be meek, be a servant to others, help them, treat them nice, be willing to forego revenge everytime someone looks at you wrong, forgive. And I guess Jesus could have said "Look at how I put up with you morons. Remember that the next time you want to hate someone who's cut in front of you at the pita bread stand."
God didn't send a judge, He sent a savior. Dig it.
Edited by socks Double helix in the sky tonight! Roll out the hardware, let's do it right!
It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget:
On 7/16/2018 at 2:29 PM, Twinky said:
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)
Twinky brought up a good point…
It’s difficult to remember any clear thoughts I had on “the gift ministries” – but I vaguely had the impression they were a big deal...almost like they were rock stars - and the rest of us were roadies and support crew for them...but that in all likelihood was just how I interpreted things anytime I heard something taught on them…I never saw myself as fitting into one of those roles – and probably should have made more of an effort to figure out “my voice” in spreading the Gospel - - in other words – what was my main role? maybe folks like me fail to see the value of what we offer.
There’s another passage that goes along the lines of what Twinky shared:
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully…Romans 12: 6-8 NIV
I remember something a corps work coordinator said when I was working in carpentry for a block – “you can lead from within the pack.”…maybe I took it wrong but I interpreted that to mean I didn’t have to be the Alpha dog – but I could set an example to others of the right way - - and with the right attitude to carry out a task; being exemplary. Now that inspired me!
Even to this day I have never been ambitious to be a boss or manager during my work career – though I have had those roles many times throughout my livelihood. But something I have always taken great pride in was leading from within the pack. More or less leading by example - from within the ranks; for me a great reward was often just being designated as a trainer for the installation or service personnel…So perhaps a failure in my corps training was partly due to my dense head of not figuring out my strengths and deciding on personal goals and partly due to the pigeonhole thinking of the way corps coordinator, just wanting to pump out great sales reps. (and I wonder how many of us simply accepted what we were told our strengths were and what our personal goals should be )
I knew some corps who were great – in terms of really being into service instead of reigning as a Nazi over folks...but it seems like for some corps - the more the ministry pushed classes, abundant sharing, witnessing…whatever – they tended to bear down more on those under them…on that kind of trend I could never get into leading from within the pack…I would just brood over how unspiritual I must have been for not getting into it…I dunno – it was almost like a conspiracy to dull the souls of men & women on the ministry-hamster-wheel-of-unfulfilling-activity… I guess different folks are attracted to different things…some people get into being the big cheese.
I had a boss who was former secret service… one of my favorite pep talks he ever gave us was along the lines of “there is no higher calling than service.”…
And that makes me think of Jesus talking about leading from within the pack:
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”…Matthew 20: 25-28 NIV
Edited by T-Bone I think a fearless leader is not in touch with reality
I remember something a corps work coordinator said when I was working in carpentry for a block – “you can lead from within the pack.”…maybe I took it wrong but I interpreted that to mean I didn’t have to be the Alpha dog – but I could set an example to others of the right way - - and with the right attitude to carry out a task; being exemplary. Now that inspired me!
This is actually the natural way of finding the leader. They are part of the group, but have a tremendous influence on the others in the group. They can all see the leadership qualities of that person, and that person is a true leader. As opposed to the boss, who just gives orders, and garners resentment.
Good for you, you most certainly did NOT take that the wrong way.
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waysider
You know, for a guy who liked to rail against private interpretation, VPW was quite an expert at doing it himself.
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chockfull
I think actually the Way's use of the word "gift" kind of ruins the way we use the word in normal conversation in society. Like for example, seeing a girl twirl high above the earth wrapped only in a long silk scarf one would normally exclaim "that girl has a gift".
Typically we would mean that in the sense that the girl has developed herself into great kinesthetic understanding and display. We would encourage the girl to "develop her gift".
Or in another sense, a friend of mine has a troubled son. He is spoken of as having a "gift for getting in trouble". He also gets in fights. So my friend instead of having his son develop his gifts in the direction of being a prison gang leader, he is exerting a more positive influence and enrolling him in mixed martial arts classes so he can instead have a career in the UFC.
But Wayspeak we would be correcting that midstream. Oh, no, the only Biblically accurate usages of the word "gift" are either holy spirit non-capitalized, or gift ministries, which are these magical things that work just like the manifestations, except with extra power. So when a "gift ministry" person would operate manifestations, whooo laa laa, we were to expect fireworks. Like, you know, listening to the Veepster speak in tongues. Oh wait. That just sounded like preschool nonsense Italian all the time LOL.
And I'll tell you, the higher up the chain you would climb interacting with people in the Way, the less you would see of the miraculous, and the more you would see of the pettiness of Machiavellian rule.
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Galen
It was in my understanding that as an individual you would not see what your gift was. Rather focus instead on the journey and others around you would see your fruit and know what your gift was.
Whenever someone is bragging about their gift, I hear that as ego and pride.
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chockfull
So as an individual functioning, you would not tend to notice in what area your talents are showing results? Or are you saying this is a Zen kind of thing? Just stay your mind on stringing those chairs, and people walking by will know you're a pastor?
People with talent who brag about it are intolerable in any field, sport, group, or sense.
Those with talent who display humility are usually universally loved.
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Galen
These gifts are given to the body of believers. They are not for helping the individual. So as an individual, having a gift gives you no benefit.
Aligning chairs is more a deacon thing [tending to the details of the infrastructure of the group]. We own a rental realestate property that we are remodeling. One of our first tenants is a small street ministry church. A year ago we dropped out from attending a Way Ministry fellowship, and began going to this church instead. Every service their pews are pushed around and out-of-place. So I go in as the landlord on Saturdays and I re-align the pews. I do it because it bugs me otherwise. I certainly do not see this as any act of a gift ministry, but just a tiny part of what needs to happen to make the place inviting.
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chockfull
Yes I'm aware of the Way jargon explanation. However, it's inaccurate. If you as an individual give to others, God gives back to you. So you do indirectly benefit. Furthermore, as I was indicating in the first post on this thread, besides the party line "these gifts are given to the body of believers", when you start to take a look at what that actually looks like, it is somewhat eye-opening.
For example, the gift of an apostle given to the body of believers looks like what? Or a prophet? Or a pastor? What did it look like in the Way? How about now?
Mainstream Christianity doesn't speak in terms of gift ministries. They speak in terms of "pastors", "associate pastors", etc. which is a term of function, not of gift.
What is a "deacon thing"? Even in the Corpse the Way big top tent always had chairs strung by Corpse. And we were all these "gift ministry" types doing that. Or whatever. That's what they were teaching us. And the leaders large and in charge were certainly making their gifts known. What do "deacons" do? Deac? And elders eld? See I can drum up some PLAF jargon myself if needed.
In mainstream Christianity I've experienced recently, a "gift ministry" if you asked a deacon or an elder about it would probably talk about how they evaluate teaching pastors. It's easy. How much weekly revenue do they generate?
Your small church sounds like a cool grassroots thing going on, and you have a personal connection there. Your service from the heart as a landlord to straighten chairs is not to be discounted. It catches God's attention where the blathering of people's ego on knowledge of scriptures fails to. Ministering to others is a gift to them. Whether it is a simple thing to make them feel better like aligning chairs, or more complicated involving more involvement in their lives.
That's the simplicity of it.
The more people talk "gift ministry" constructs, the more it starts to sound like the tower of Babel century 2000. With positional hierarchy like blatherers and janitors.
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krys
I believe Galen is on the right track.
Your suggestion of a person with a gift ministry gives to the church (the believers) and God gives back to him, doesn't mean that the believers have not been "blessed". Perhaps God gives back to your strong abilities (gift) which makes you only more effective at it. If you are particularly adept at teaching you will be strengthened in this "gift".
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chockfull
I was not suggesting the believers have not been "blessed". I mean sometimes they aren't because it's a person presenting ego in the form of a supposed gift, but that's another story. But by and large the law of giving rewards everyone involved.
So what do you believe modern day apostles "gift" should or do look like to the church? How about "prophets" or the other 3 the Way lists together? Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers?
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TLC
Frankly, I'm not so convinced (at least, not as convinced like I might have been years ago) that these gift ministries "once given" equates to and/or necessarily means "always there." They're given to... whom? The individual, or the church? Okay, I get that they refer the function of an individual within the body. But, exactly what does that mean? That individuals can never function differently if the situation in (or needs of) the church change? Well, I'm not sure. Maybe somebody else here can enlighten me on what the truth really is.
However, what I am sure of, is that twi made far, Far, FAR too big a deal and much "to do" over these "5 gift ministries" and who supposedly did or didn't have them.
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chockfull
Yes I'm with you on that, and even examining what they supposedly are when they are "once given". It was always taught the gift was to the church. But in the Way it wasn't so much what was taught as it was what was modeled behind the scenes.
I mean "pastors" take care of the flock - it's an inherent definition. Even tent evangelists like Billy Graham were known and what they did - give a powerful emotional sermon and bring people to Christ then turn them over to a local church for ongoing growth. Teachers is a generic word - could convey anything from public education to training settings to other education. Prophets are largely looked upon as OT figures by most modern Christians. And the apostles as the first few heads of the church.
But VP had to revitalize it all and re-teach all these ministries - now for an example, an apostle just wasn't Paul the one born out of time or Peter, but a generic definition of "one who brings new light to their generation". Well, who did VP have in mind to fill those shoes with a snow-on-the-gas-pumps story? Make him unique, like Paul. Better than all the other generic Christian brands. I had even heard talk about how VP was so unique he was the only one that fulfilled all 5 gift ministries or operated them or had them or whatever.
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Twinky
It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget:
The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)
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skyrider
In 1978, 1979..........wierwille DID mention those with gifts of helps, organization and "governments" at those after-corps-night meetings and/or staff meetings at hq. There were several clergy at hq who were ensconced at twi for years........and wierwille spoke up on their behalf. I specifically remember it, because some had questions why people like Mark Gluck!n, Claudette R0yal and others were *permanent fixtures* at hq and not on the field.
Once we entered into the 1980's........I don't remember wierwille or anyone else ever mentioning this again.
.
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Twinky
OK, Sky, that didn't make it into Loyboy theology. You mention late 70s; did the "helps" ministries make it into the 80s?
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Taxidev
It seems, here on the field in my area, after the fall of LCM, these gifts to the church were only glossed over. There was no real emphasis on them, only checking with "spiritual leadership" when making big decisions. Like, all of a sudden, when we are born again we become imbeciles that can't plan our lives.
But it didn't take long for even that to fade, so much so that the branch and fellowship coordinators all but ignored people and just focused on the business of the ministry, outreach, and teaching the dictated (from HQ) themes.
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chockfull
I remember some of this teaching on helps and governments surrounding Rosalie's takeover / installation. This also was used as an excuse why the Board of Dummies at HQ doesn't travel much but sits there planning more events at HQ where they don't have to move again.
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chockfull
I have been thinking more about this topic. Do I agree with the mainstream Christianity assessment that there are only prophets in the OT and the apostles were Peter and Paul, and the others describe functions not gifts?
I'm not 100% sold on that. I do see in the scriptures special energizings by God. What I don't see is the attached pyramid scheme sold by the Way International in conjunction with it. For example, those apostles and prophets along with the helps and governments "specialty" lifetime functions in positions the Way does. Tiered salary structures according to the supposed importance of the gift, like corporate business. Machiavellian activity. Basically the type of morality that I would see Jesus confronting by kicking over the money tables in the temple. People selling their souls for a morsel of bread. Former janitors and window cleaners now large and in charge and their head inflates and what becomes most important is not "it is written", it is "it is position". Policies are decided according to quotes from "Louis Columbo 3:16" (RFR's BFF lawsuit lawyer) as opposed to scriptural teachings by Jesus or Paul or Peter.
"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". Rom. 11:29
IMO there is a tinfoil hat version of understanding this verse, and a logical common man way of understanding this verse:
Tinfoil: I was subjected to a corporate hazing for 4 years that left me with a nametag and an assignment and a position and a title. I heard prophecy spoken over me that contained some qualities. Thus I am entitled to a ring for people to kiss, a position, a salary, and servants. Thus throughout my lifetime I will also be entitled to all of this, and people are responsible to provide it for me. I am cemented in to a corporate cultural hierarchy of absolute obedience, or shunning if I break ranks.
Common Logic: I grew up with natural talents in areas. Or at least one, and hopes to have talent in one other or something. God helps me develop them and energizes me and inspires me as I do. As I grow older these don't depart.
I do believe in special energizings of God in individuals.
I don't believe in pyramid schemes.
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Galen
Sounds a lot like US Naval academy graduates.
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Taxidev
Looking at the verse where these are listed:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
I don't see anything about them being ministries, nor gifts, nor gift ministries. I see they were partly for the work of the ministry. So, that description by VPW apparently came out of thin air.
It also states, quite clearly, that these were for the edifying of the body of Christ, not the lording of certain individuals, not for the admiration of certain individuals, not for the special treatment of certain individuals. So calling them "gift ministries" and declaring who had them is obviously another form of manipulation.
I know that we can look at anything TWI has done and still does that elevates any person above another as anti-Christ activity, because Jesus Christ is the head, and all the rest of us are the body. Doesn't 1 Cor 12 describe how no one part of the body is any better than any other? So TWI giving more importance to anyone is against the Word of God.
Isn't that wonderful?
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Taxidev
Paul gives us a clue, I think.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
But this could mean, Timothy was an evangelist so he should do his job, or he was not an evangelist but he needs to act like one for one reason or another.
If it is the second case, then I would say the function can change.
And then, in response to:
maybe you are seeing something that wasn't so obvious. Maybe God activates these "gift ministries", for lack of a better term, as He sees fit for the body, or maybe enables us to act in that capacity where there is a need. This is worth further study.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Ephesians 4:11-16
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ — 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
NKJV
In verse 11 above it lists five services for the edification of the body of Christ that could perhaps be called gift ministries. However, instead of gift ministries it says "work of ministry".
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Galen
I had thought that since the verse says :11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
God gave, so this thing so it must be a gift.
Edited by Galenmy spellck3ckr messed it up
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socks
Gift ministries - a short hand term for the stuff in Ephesians 4:10 - 12. They're gifts, they're ministries, etc. I don't spend much time tripping on that one.
Today we have a collection of scripture from which to establish a usable context for the Christian message, religion, belief, history, etc. And we have a "New Testament" of writings.
From which I gather that all of the things specifically listed in Ephesians 4:11 are also generally the kinds of things that followers of Jesus Christ are able to do, or can be doing let's say.
The Way's teaching sub text for 4:11 was that all those born again had the "same measure of faith" that wasn't received or achieved by their effort and wasn't earned but is given equally to all who believe in Christ. The "gift" of "holy spirit", pneuma hagion. There are therefore no special accoutrements that are given to some and not others. All are enabled with the "enablements", and that is whatever well, whatever we're told in the New Testament.
So - without going into a lot of detail we're probably all familiar with I think one has to ask themselves what makes these 5 things different from anything else the born again child of God receives in the gift of the new birth?
Today I would assume from what the NT says every born again child of God....
Can apostle - and is sent to bring the message of Christ to others.
Can be a prophet - and speak for God and on God's behalf.
Can teach - and teach the Word of God.
Can pastor - and provide support and care for the church, the "flock".
Can be an evangelist - and act as an ambassador for Christ and tell others about HIm.
....Without a special dispensation from God to the Church.
Where this has gone for me is a slightly different view of what the "Church" is, and what exactly the "body of Christ is", and what God through Christ is doing ... with all this. Man's "Church" is largely a collection of traditions and tangibles that deal with the physical world and lives and so that needs support and provision, ordnance and protection even.....but....a lot of that deals with the affairs of a kingdom that is not part of what God is actually building and won't be resurrected in a future phase.
One point I would call out is that it appears these 5 things listed in Ephesians (and referred to elsewhere too) and termed for "the work of the ministry" is for a specific kind of function or "office" within the church. And that carries a hella bunch of baggage with it in today's religion, but not if it's viewed in an Ephesians context, a "spiritual one" where there's no phoney man made construct. A function or even call it a "distribution" isn't a job or a position. Man thinks up and down and sideways, hierarchically - in the Kingdom of God there's no big hierarchy of mid management, which is how I think the religious version sees it.
Anyway, however we view it we're given very clear instructions by both Jesus and "Paul" on how we should treat each other, think of ourselves and conduct our affairs in this life, as His followers, children of God and it isn't political or economic - it's social, familial. Abusive behaviors and practices in the Church by people doing "the work of the ministry" always reveal a departure from the fundamentals of our faith.
It's not nearly as exotic or complex as we might make it - Jesus told us don't act prideful, don't put yourself above others, don't be an ass hole and treat people like shi t and they should be grateful you even talk to them. Be meek, be a servant to others, help them, treat them nice, be willing to forego revenge everytime someone looks at you wrong, forgive. And I guess Jesus could have said "Look at how I put up with you morons. Remember that the next time you want to hate someone who's cut in front of you at the pita bread stand."
God didn't send a judge, He sent a savior. Dig it.
Edited by socksDouble helix in the sky tonight! Roll out the hardware, let's do it right!
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T-Bone
Twinky brought up a good point…
It’s difficult to remember any clear thoughts I had on “the gift ministries” – but I vaguely had the impression they were a big deal...almost like they were rock stars - and the rest of us were roadies and support crew for them...but that in all likelihood was just how I interpreted things anytime I heard something taught on them…I never saw myself as fitting into one of those roles – and probably should have made more of an effort to figure out “my voice” in spreading the Gospel - - in other words – what was my main role? maybe folks like me fail to see the value of what we offer.
There’s another passage that goes along the lines of what Twinky shared:
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully…Romans 12: 6-8 NIV
I remember something a corps work coordinator said when I was working in carpentry for a block – “you can lead from within the pack.”…maybe I took it wrong but I interpreted that to mean I didn’t have to be the Alpha dog – but I could set an example to others of the right way - - and with the right attitude to carry out a task; being exemplary. Now that inspired me!
Even to this day I have never been ambitious to be a boss or manager during my work career – though I have had those roles many times throughout my livelihood. But something I have always taken great pride in was leading from within the pack. More or less leading by example - from within the ranks; for me a great reward was often just being designated as a trainer for the installation or service personnel…So perhaps a failure in my corps training was partly due to my dense head of not figuring out my strengths and deciding on personal goals and partly due to the pigeonhole thinking of the way corps coordinator, just wanting to pump out great sales reps. (and I wonder how many of us simply accepted what we were told our strengths were and what our personal goals should be )
I knew some corps who were great – in terms of really being into service instead of reigning as a Nazi over folks...but it seems like for some corps - the more the ministry pushed classes, abundant sharing, witnessing…whatever – they tended to bear down more on those under them…on that kind of trend I could never get into leading from within the pack…I would just brood over how unspiritual I must have been for not getting into it…I dunno – it was almost like a conspiracy to dull the souls of men & women on the ministry-hamster-wheel-of-unfulfilling-activity… I guess different folks are attracted to different things…some people get into being the big cheese.
I had a boss who was former secret service… one of my favorite pep talks he ever gave us was along the lines of “there is no higher calling than service.”…
And that makes me think of Jesus talking about leading from within the pack:
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”…Matthew 20: 25-28 NIV
Edited by T-BoneI think a fearless leader is not in touch with reality
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Taxidev
This is actually the natural way of finding the leader. They are part of the group, but have a tremendous influence on the others in the group. They can all see the leadership qualities of that person, and that person is a true leader. As opposed to the boss, who just gives orders, and garners resentment.
Good for you, you most certainly did NOT take that the wrong way.
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