So in similar logic to the other thread where we are discussing the teaching of the Way International on the "household of God" as separate from the "family of God" and "body of Christ", if you start to examine the Way Tree teaching and logic it actually follows exactly the same pattern.
Way Productions sang "I am a leaf, on a mighty tree" as a way to express the followers mindset.
This mindset is ANTICHRIST.
.......snip
I know, I know......
The more you examine the wierwille-doctrine........you start to see that the guy was a false teacher and false prophet.
That's why it stands to reason to see this newest splinter group, the R/R folk and corps coordinators.......promoting wierwille-adulation.
Closest thing in scripture is in the Gospel of John where Jesus said I am the Vine, you are the branches(not leaves).
So maybe we need to 'leave' the Way tree logic and 'branch' out into better ways of understanding scripture?
LOL.
Thanks for the reminder Thomas. Yes plant imagery. I guess Jesus also referred to followers with a parable of planting seed in various types of ground and looking at the harvest and comparing it to people. Of course in the Way with ego unchecked that of course meant people and the various positions they did or did not attain.
But the vine imagery flows with the one body imagery does not cut across it. As the vine representation of an individual there is growth, fruit, etc. The individual is a self-contained plant in the image, as opposed to the brainless portion of a photosynthesis process part of a plant in the other image.
So the healthy vine image in the Bible is that each person, like a plant is to grow and produce fruit individually. Jesus is highly integrated into this imagery as He is the vine.
In the Way, each person is the leaf on a mighty tree. The tree is represented with the Trunk as at times the ministry HQ in Ohio, or each continent had a Trunk at one time. The roots are represented by the teachings of the Bible coming out from the Way International Headquarters. The state headquarters are imagined as "Limbs" of a tree. All of this imagery extends out to how they live and have meetings as well. A "Limb Day", or a "Branch Meeting" is a particular kind of gathering of a certain size group of Way people, all which can be represented by the group's "leadership". The writeup and teaching of the functioning of that group is expressed in the Vision and Direction document by how each layer of the Way Tree is to impart the "heart of the Board of Directors" to the followers on the field.
Jesus also calls himself "the way". Which has less than zero to do with the 21st century followers who adopted that name and incorporated it, turning it into a cult in Ohio. The only place Jesus is in this scenario is watching from the right hand of the Father taking notes for the bema when he certainly will have something to say about this type of abomination of his teachings.
Closest thing in scripture is in the Gospel of John where Jesus said I am the Vine, you are the branches(not leaves).
Yeah and I think the Way Tree with wierwille’s words given priority and importance over the words of Christ - it’s a counterfeit! TWI followers might as well be claiming “I am of wierwille !” - reminds me of I Corinthians 3 But as I Cor. 3 states - there is no other stable platform upon which to build a Christian life other than what’s ALREADY been provided in Jesus Christ...
...it’s no wonder that the Way Tree could ever be anything other than the bad tree of Matthew 7
Or, if you like Outandabout's analogy, here's another little something. Please do pay attention to the "state" (and barely "standing") of the item referrred to.
You do have to admit, though, it has a more melodic sound than "I am a chump in a mighty scam".
Or in a pyramid scheme... why do you think Amway was so attractive to people in TWItville?
"In recent decades, pyramid schemes have become an insidious, pervasive and corrupting influence in the marketplace and community, causing financial and social harm on a global scale."
Since 1980 a new form of sales and marketing, called multi-level marketing or network marketing, has spread worldwide and spawned an explosion of pyramid sales schemes involving tens of millions of consumers. The line between legal forms of network marketing and fraudulent pyramid programs is a point of controversy, confusion and inquiry in many countries. Pyramid Scheme Alert will provide much needed information to consumers and other interested parties to reduce the number of illegal and de facto pyramid schemes and victims-and to minimize the severity of effects on individuals and communities.
Reading Rocky’s post on pyramid schemes - made me think of another angle on the word “Antichrist “ in the title of this thread - in the Greek “anti” could mean not only “against” and “oppositeof” but also “in place of”...as in - the Way Tree in place of Christ or perhaps even the body of Christ...some passages come to mind:
wierwille’s teaching of the word taking the place of the absent Christ reminds me of another Jesus / another gospel in II Corinthians 11 that warns of being contaminated from the simplicity or exclusiveness that is in Christ.
Such is the way of any cult leader - like wierwille who used the Bible as a means to his dark agenda...to take folks captive through “philosophy and empty deception “ as it’s put in Colossians 2 where deceived Christians are also told to let no one keep on defrauding them through financial and social harm...(or for those who prefer something that sounds biblical - let no one cheat you out of any temporal or eternal blessings).
...wierwille’s insidious legacy is as virulent as ever in any group that thinks his doctrine and practice are still cool...yes what’s obviously missing from wierwille’s legacy is Christ ! Indeed wierwille’s doctrine and practice does take the place of the “absent “ Christ.
The Pyramid Sceme was the perfect business model for wierwille - recruit followers by promising them how much they would gain by recruiting others - the old “receive-retain-release” idea...similar to “giving and receiving “ ...I remember another of wierwille’s “gems” in PFAL along these lines “ the reason the Dead Sea is dead is because it has an inlet but no outlet”...in my opinion all these ideas suggest a follower can’t just sit there and do nothing after taking the class - it’s only when one “gives it away” (share what you’ve learned - get others signed up for the next class, and give of your time, money and resources) that you will see a return on your investment.
as the Wikipedia link suggests the futility of pyramid schemes (here applied to TWI) - as recruiting multiplies, enlisting new way followers becomes more difficult - with most existing members seeing little if any profit - thus in the long haul the pyramid scheme is unsustainable!
Reading Rocky’s post on pyramid schemes - made me think of another angle on the word “Antichrist “ in the title of this thread - in the Greek “anti” could mean not only “against” and “oppositeof” but also “in place of”...as in - the Way Tree in place of Christ or perhaps even the body of Christ...some passages come to mind:
wierwille’s teaching of the word taking the place of the absent Christ reminds me of another Jesus / another gospel in II Corinthians 11 that warns of being contaminated from the simplicity or exclusiveness that is in Christ.
Such is the way of any cult leader - like wierwille who used the Bible as a means to his dark agenda...to take folks captive through “philosophy and empty deception “ as it’s put in Colossians 2 where deceived Christians are also told to let no one keep on defrauding them through financial and social harm...(or for those who prefer something that sounds biblical - let no one cheat you out of any temporal or eternal blessings).
...wierwille’s insidious legacy is as virulent as ever in any group that thinks his doctrine and practice are still cool...yes what’s obviously missing from wierwille’s legacy is Christ ! Indeed wierwille’s doctrine and practice does take the place of the “absent “ Christ.
The Pyramid Sceme was the perfect business model for wierwille - recruit followers by promising them how much they would gain by recruiting others - the old “receive-retain-release” idea...similar to “giving and receiving “ ...I remember another of wierwille’s “gems” in PFAL along these lines “ the reason the Dead Sea is dead is because it has an inlet but no outlet”...in my opinion all these ideas suggest a follower can’t just sit there and do nothing after taking the class - it’s only when one “gives it away” (share what you’ve learned - get others signed up for the next class, and give of your time, money and resources) that you will see a return on your investment.
as the Wikipedia link suggests the futility of pyramid schemes (here applied to TWI) - as recruiting multiplies, enlisting new way followers becomes more difficult - with most existing members seeing little if any profit - thus in the long haul the pyramid scheme is unsustainable!
T-Bone, great observation. I definitely think it is exactly against Christ because it sets up a human structure in place of Christ. If something is in place of Christ, then all of the normal benefits of Christ are not being realized. The adulation and dare say praise owed to Christ are instead diverted to the "other Christ" or "little Christ" or "anti Christ" object. Any real relationship benefit with our living and ascended Lord and Savior is also replaced. Even down to the proscribed language of prayer. Unlike in mainstream Christianity, where people are known to regularly pray to / talk to Jesus in a sense, this is verbotten in the Way, because of a scriptural manipulation. "We don't pray to the son, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son", and then you have that whole bridge poster or whatever to describe it.
Another way around it is "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ".
All right - you're going to have to pardon me while I rant for a moment.
<rant>
First off, why the F is Christ so F'ing absent there, F heads (perdon my French as that is what you can substitute in place of the Fs) ?
Second off, I'm sure you need some "Wierwillein Logic" to get there that involves poor understanding of mathematics transitive property of equality if I recall.
Last, is this some kind of predecessor to the fear and reality that robots are taking my job? Is Jesus to grow old playing checkers because now he's not needed as "da Verd" has replaced him?
</rant>
I know I will garner criticism in my rant because supposedly the intent is that Christ isn't physically present but your Bible is, with all it's 500+ Bullinger's "also"s marked in your KJV as well as your "holy spirit usage" numbers because you are an Advanced Class graduate and that is a prerequisite LOL.
But really. Come on now. Think about it. No tinfoil hat needed. Raj can speak to his family in India over Skype personal every Big Bang Theory episode. But Jesus, who could poof appear to people here and there in his new body, do a nice nature trail on the way to Damascus for a bit then disappear, and all such even before he ascended, he can't really accomplish the real involvement thing? God has to replace him with a series of tomes many centuries removed from original languages and intents?
No, Christ is only absent because people make Him so.
Cults make Him absent by replacing Him* with centuries old tomes, the interpretation of which is given to wizards in their tribe only.
*So if the capitalization thing triggers you, just think of it as Jesus as my Lord is important enough to me for me to capitalize his pronoun when I'm making a point but sometimes I don't so don't make a thing out of it, K?
For me, understanding quantum physics explains the genuine science behind the ability of the Risen Christ to be anywhere and everywhere He wants to be whenever He wants. No problem for me understanding that “miracles, signs, and wonders” are indeed “available” in the physical universe without any need to break or supercede “natural law”. E=MC2 is both a natural and spiritual truth. I am one who chooses to believe that God is as omni- as She chooses to be with absolutely NO limitations. That’s just me.
Or in a pyramid scheme... why do you think Amway was so attractive to people in TWItville?
"In recent decades, pyramid schemes have become an insidious, pervasive and corrupting influence in the marketplace and community, causing financial and social harm on a global scale."
Since 1980 a new form of sales and marketing, called multi-level marketing or network marketing, has spread worldwide and spawned an explosion of pyramid sales schemes involving tens of millions of consumers. The line between legal forms of network marketing and fraudulent pyramid programs is a point of controversy, confusion and inquiry in many countries. Pyramid Scheme Alert will provide much needed information to consumers and other interested parties to reduce the number of illegal and de facto pyramid schemes and victims-and to minimize the severity of effects on individuals and communities.
Rocky,
You are spot on with the pyramid scheme stuff. And I love the Plato quotes too.
Maybe Jesus emphasis is more on the vine as something that grows and climbs around, over things and keeps going ? As opposed to a stationary tree, the vine will keep moving, spreading. Blessed to be a branch !!
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chockfull
Get your Smokey the Bear on. Only you can prevent wildfires.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Closest thing in scripture is in the Gospel of John where Jesus said I am the Vine, you are the branches(not leaves).
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skyrider
I know, I know......
The more you examine the wierwille-doctrine........you start to see that the guy was a false teacher and false prophet.
That's why it stands to reason to see this newest splinter group, the R/R folk and corps coordinators.......promoting wierwille-adulation.
.........
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outandabout
TWI isn't a tree. It's a pyramid.
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chockfull
So maybe we need to 'leave' the Way tree logic and 'branch' out into better ways of understanding scripture?
LOL.
Thanks for the reminder Thomas. Yes plant imagery. I guess Jesus also referred to followers with a parable of planting seed in various types of ground and looking at the harvest and comparing it to people. Of course in the Way with ego unchecked that of course meant people and the various positions they did or did not attain.
But the vine imagery flows with the one body imagery does not cut across it. As the vine representation of an individual there is growth, fruit, etc. The individual is a self-contained plant in the image, as opposed to the brainless portion of a photosynthesis process part of a plant in the other image.
So the healthy vine image in the Bible is that each person, like a plant is to grow and produce fruit individually. Jesus is highly integrated into this imagery as He is the vine.
In the Way, each person is the leaf on a mighty tree. The tree is represented with the Trunk as at times the ministry HQ in Ohio, or each continent had a Trunk at one time. The roots are represented by the teachings of the Bible coming out from the Way International Headquarters. The state headquarters are imagined as "Limbs" of a tree. All of this imagery extends out to how they live and have meetings as well. A "Limb Day", or a "Branch Meeting" is a particular kind of gathering of a certain size group of Way people, all which can be represented by the group's "leadership". The writeup and teaching of the functioning of that group is expressed in the Vision and Direction document by how each layer of the Way Tree is to impart the "heart of the Board of Directors" to the followers on the field.
Jesus also calls himself "the way". Which has less than zero to do with the 21st century followers who adopted that name and incorporated it, turning it into a cult in Ohio. The only place Jesus is in this scenario is watching from the right hand of the Father taking notes for the bema when he certainly will have something to say about this type of abomination of his teachings.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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chockfull
I just get so tired of seeing so many putting old wine into new wineskins.
They should do something unique for a change just to break up the monotony of their behavior as the definition of insanity.
Peace
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T-Bone
Yeah and I think the Way Tree with wierwille’s words given priority and importance over the words of Christ - it’s a counterfeit! TWI followers might as well be claiming “I am of wierwille !” - reminds me of I Corinthians 3 But as I Cor. 3 states - there is no other stable platform upon which to build a Christian life other than what’s ALREADY been provided in Jesus Christ...
...it’s no wonder that the Way Tree could ever be anything other than the bad tree of Matthew 7
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Twinky
Here is a little something, for the Way Tree:
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Twinky
Or, if you like Outandabout's analogy, here's another little something. Please do pay attention to the "state" (and barely "standing") of the item referrred to.
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Twinky
Good point, Thomas.
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waysider
You do have to admit, though, it has a more melodic sound than "I am a chump in a mighty scam".
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Rocky
Or in a pyramid scheme... why do you think Amway was so attractive to people in TWItville?
Edited by Rocky"In recent decades, pyramid schemes have become an insidious, pervasive and corrupting influence in the marketplace and community, causing financial and social harm on a global scale."
Since 1980 a new form of sales and marketing, called multi-level marketing or network marketing, has spread worldwide and spawned an explosion of pyramid sales schemes involving tens of millions of consumers. The line between legal forms of network marketing and fraudulent
pyramid programs is a point of controversy, confusion and inquiry in many countries. Pyramid Scheme Alert will provide much needed information to consumers and other interested parties to reduce the number of illegal and de facto pyramid schemes and victims-and to minimize the severity of effects on individuals and communities.
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T-Bone
Reading Rocky’s post on pyramid schemes - made me think of another angle on the word “Antichrist “ in the title of this thread - in the Greek “anti” could mean not only “against” and “opposite of” but also “in place of”...as in - the Way Tree in place of Christ or perhaps even the body of Christ...some passages come to mind:
wierwille’s teaching of the word taking the place of the absent Christ reminds me of another Jesus / another gospel in II Corinthians 11 that warns of being contaminated from the simplicity or exclusiveness that is in Christ.
Such is the way of any cult leader - like wierwille who used the Bible as a means to his dark agenda...to take folks captive through “philosophy and empty deception “ as it’s put in Colossians 2 where deceived Christians are also told to let no one keep on defrauding them through financial and social harm...(or for those who prefer something that sounds biblical - let no one cheat you out of any temporal or eternal blessings).
...wierwille’s insidious legacy is as virulent as ever in any group that thinks his doctrine and practice are still cool...yes what’s obviously missing from wierwille’s legacy is Christ ! Indeed wierwille’s doctrine and practice does take the place of the “absent “ Christ.
The Pyramid Sceme was the perfect business model for wierwille - recruit followers by promising them how much they would gain by recruiting others - the old “receive-retain-release” idea...similar to “giving and receiving “ ...I remember another of wierwille’s “gems” in PFAL along these lines “ the reason the Dead Sea is dead is because it has an inlet but no outlet”...in my opinion all these ideas suggest a follower can’t just sit there and do nothing after taking the class - it’s only when one “gives it away” (share what you’ve learned - get others signed up for the next class, and give of your time, money and resources) that you will see a return on your investment.
as the Wikipedia link suggests the futility of pyramid schemes (here applied to TWI) - as recruiting multiplies, enlisting new way followers becomes more difficult - with most existing members seeing little if any profit - thus in the long haul the pyramid scheme is unsustainable!
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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chockfull
T-Bone, great observation. I definitely think it is exactly against Christ because it sets up a human structure in place of Christ. If something is in place of Christ, then all of the normal benefits of Christ are not being realized. The adulation and dare say praise owed to Christ are instead diverted to the "other Christ" or "little Christ" or "anti Christ" object. Any real relationship benefit with our living and ascended Lord and Savior is also replaced. Even down to the proscribed language of prayer. Unlike in mainstream Christianity, where people are known to regularly pray to / talk to Jesus in a sense, this is verbotten in the Way, because of a scriptural manipulation. "We don't pray to the son, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son", and then you have that whole bridge poster or whatever to describe it.
Another way around it is "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ".
All right - you're going to have to pardon me while I rant for a moment.
<rant>
First off, why the F is Christ so F'ing absent there, F heads (perdon my French as that is what you can substitute in place of the Fs) ?
Second off, I'm sure you need some "Wierwillein Logic" to get there that involves poor understanding of mathematics transitive property of equality if I recall.
Last, is this some kind of predecessor to the fear and reality that robots are taking my job? Is Jesus to grow old playing checkers because now he's not needed as "da Verd" has replaced him?
</rant>
I know I will garner criticism in my rant because supposedly the intent is that Christ isn't physically present but your Bible is, with all it's 500+ Bullinger's "also"s marked in your KJV as well as your "holy spirit usage" numbers because you are an Advanced Class graduate and that is a prerequisite LOL.
But really. Come on now. Think about it. No tinfoil hat needed. Raj can speak to his family in India over Skype personal every Big Bang Theory episode. But Jesus, who could poof appear to people here and there in his new body, do a nice nature trail on the way to Damascus for a bit then disappear, and all such even before he ascended, he can't really accomplish the real involvement thing? God has to replace him with a series of tomes many centuries removed from original languages and intents?
No, Christ is only absent because people make Him so.
Cults make Him absent by replacing Him* with centuries old tomes, the interpretation of which is given to wizards in their tribe only.
*So if the capitalization thing triggers you, just think of it as Jesus as my Lord is important enough to me for me to capitalize his pronoun when I'm making a point but sometimes I don't so don't make a thing out of it, K?
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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DontWorryBeHappy
For me, understanding quantum physics explains the genuine science behind the ability of the Risen Christ to be anywhere and everywhere He wants to be whenever He wants. No problem for me understanding that “miracles, signs, and wonders” are indeed “available” in the physical universe without any need to break or supercede “natural law”. E=MC2 is both a natural and spiritual truth. I am one who chooses to believe that God is as omni- as She chooses to be with absolutely NO limitations. That’s just me.
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chockfull
Rocky,
You are spot on with the pyramid scheme stuff. And I love the Plato quotes too.
Peace.
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Rocky
Intriguing that Plato wrote that more than 300 years BC!
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Allan
Maybe Jesus emphasis is more on the vine as something that grows and climbs around, over things and keeps going ? As opposed to a stationary tree, the vine will keep moving, spreading. Blessed to be a branch !!
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