Since this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, would anyone (especially the original poster) care to share something about the guy in the video, or the content of the video? I'm not a big fan of a video link dump with no explanation as to why I should watch it or even how long it is.
Since this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, would anyone (especially the original poster) care to share something about the guy in the video, or the content of the video? I'm not a big fan of a video link dump with no explanation as to why I should watch it or even how long it is.
It's his own personal take on what the mark of the beast is. He offers no solid historical or scriptural basis for his opinion.
Since this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, would anyone (especially the original poster) care to share something about the guy in the video, or the content of the video? I'm not a big fan of a video link dump with no explanation as to why I should watch it or even how long it is.
He offers basically Preterism - and depending on one’s view of Preterism , the Book of Revelation can be interpreted as all or most of the events have already happened - speaker says Nero was the beast - and his “mark” on your person was what gave you access into the market place.
But the market places were open places. Restricting access to them would be bad for business, and contrary to the culture. People LIKED the freewheeling feel of the market places. We modern folk may dislike them for what those people loved about them, but those were THEIR market places, not ours. Our malls are a LOT more sedate by comparison- except for Black Friday, say.
Before any verse is quoted from the book of Revelation it is important to see that this book is written with symbolically figurative and not literal language. The following is one paragraph from a reference book that I learn from, the Nelson’s Bible Dictionary.
Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child.
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers
The symbolic language of the book of Revelation also includes beast with the Roman empire being the beast of the first century under the hateful person Nero. The question is why was the book of Revelation written so vaguely with symbolic figurative imagery and not literal language? One possible reason is that books of the bible then were written in dangerous times under the Roman Empire who were persecuting the church of God. A number of apostles were likely even killed, which for no offense and with no punishment for this crime is the equivalent of legal murder. This includes the apostle Paul a Roman citizen, who may have been beheaded by Roman authorities. Because of unjust things like this in future years historically we saw the Roman Empire done away with and come to an end. Although an understanding of what many of these figurative symbols represented has been lost a truthful foundation of knowledge can still be understood. God is all powerful and eventually all the deception of the devil, the god of this age will be destroyed and cease to exist with Jesus Christ, who loves all of humanity and who I love reigning as king and Lord of all.
Wow! Thanks Mark S.! I'm not used to having someone actually help me show evidence of past fulfillment.LOL Seems preterism is going through a new phase recently with Jonathan Welton's little grass-roots thing. The symbolism within certain sections of Revelation scream Roman Imperial Cult also know as "emperor worship" which began with Julias Caesar which many preterists see as the 1st horn of the sea beast. There is a lot on the internet about this but I've been searching for unbiased info where one doesn't have to sign up for an account to view the material so that I could just post a link and everybody could read it. Here is a good one to read if you have the time: http://www.academia.edu/250713/Imperial_Cult_and_Christianity_How_and_to_What_Extent_Were_the_Imperial_Cult_and_Emperor_Worship_thought_to_Preserve_Stability_in_the_Roman_World Scroll down to " IV. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HONOURS TO THE IMPERIAL FAMILY WERE REFUSED " to save some time.
There are some new points of view regarding the beasts of Revelation. There are actually 3 of them and they are not all the same beast. Some preterists including myself see the scarlet beast as Judean, not Roman. See my post titled "Alternative View of the Beasts of Revelation" for a detailed commentary.
History tends to repeat itself. Yes, we have had figurative beasts in previous years and centuries. Hopefully we will not have another beast soon. The best place for beasts is in a garbage dump. My own figurative language. Below is something that I copied from a reference manual that helps me with biblical research. I hope all is well in Florida and that you are not to hot there.
BEAST
Literally, an animal; figuratively, a symbol, often prophetic. The word beast is used literally in three ways in the Bible: (1) any animal, both CLEAN and UNCLEAN (Gen 6:7; 7:2; Lev 11:1-8); (2) a wild animal, as distinguished from domesticated animals (Gen 1:24; 7:21; 37:20; Ex 23:11); and (3) a domesticated animal (Gen 1:24; 2:20; Ex 19:13).
As a prophetic symbol, the word beast is used especially in the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. The four beasts of Daniel symbolize four cruel, tyrannical governments: (1) a lion (Babylon); (2) a bear (Media); (3) a leopard (Persia); and (4) a dreadful and terrible beast (Greece). See Dan 7:3-7. In the Book of Revelation, two beasts are described in detail: the beast from the sea, a composite of the four beasts of Daniel (Rev 13:1-10), and the beast from the land (Rev 13:11-18). Apparently, these two beasts symbolize political and religious power respectively.
In John's day, at the time when he wrote the Book of Revelation, the two "beasts" which opposed and persecuted the church were the Roman Empire (the political "beast from the sea") and the cult of emperor worship (the religious "beast from the land"). Together with the Dragon (Satan), they tried to destroy God's people.
The Bible often uses the word beast in other symbolical or figurative ways. For instance, the psalmist wrote, "I was like a beast before You" (Ps 73:22), referring to his foolish, ignorant, and brutish behavior. The apostle Paul wrote, "I have fought with beasts at Ephesus" (1 Cor 15:32) - a metaphor for the enemies who fought ferociously against him and the gospel of Christ which he preached.
Before any verse is quoted from the book of Revelation it is important to see that this book is written with symbolically figurative and not literal language. The following is one paragraph from a reference book that I learn from, the Nelson’s Bible Dictionary.
Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child.
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers
The symbolic language of the book of Revelation also includes beast with the Roman empire being the beast of the first century under the hateful person Nero. The question is why was the book of Revelation written so vaguely with symbolic figurative imagery and not literal language? One possible reason is that books of the bible then were written in dangerous times under the Roman Empire who were persecuting the church of God. A number of apostles were likely even killed, which for no offense and with no punishment for this crime is the equivalent of legal murder. This includes the apostle Paul a Roman citizen, who may have been beheaded by Roman authorities. Because of unjust things like this in future years historically we saw the Roman Empire done away with and come to an end. Although an understanding of what many of these figurative symbols represented has been lost a truthful foundation of knowledge can still be understood. God is all powerful and eventually all the deception of the devil, the god of this age will be destroyed and cease to exist with Jesus Christ, who loves all of humanity and who I love reigning as king and Lord of all.
Good stuff Mark. It's amazing to see how much we missed in the Way by censoring other Christian sources.
Good stuff Mark. It's amazing to see how much we missed in the Way by censoring other Christian sources.
Of course twi censors other Christian sources- especially Christian history. vpw wouldn't have known church history if it bit him in the calf. He never studied it- he studied "homiletics", or "how to give a sermon." (Really, that was his grad school track? How to give a sermon? That needs an entire track?) So, since he didn't know church history, we were discouraged from learning it. vpw forbid we learned more than he did on a subject! We know he was clueless because when he made up the so-called "1942 promise", he claimed he would be taught "the Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st Century" while lacking an understanding of what they DID know in the 1st century. (The claim of the promise collapses under scrutiny because it's so error-ridden, which is one reason vpw kept it under wraps for the most part. Frankly, I think he was amazed it went as far as it did without everyone calling him on enormous bs.) Anyway, twi actively discouraged learning church history. Like all "cults", it also discouraged searching for knowledge outside its own influence. That some people did so anyway was in spite of twi trying to discourage it, not because it was encouraged.
Good stuff Mark. It's amazing to see how much we missed in the Way by censoring other Christian sources.
I have and use very good bible study software that I use as a biblical reference with many biblical references. The software is named PC Study Bible. A company out of the state of Washington, BibleSoft. This software even has New Testament Koine Greek verse by verse text which was passed down over a number of centuries. It shows the actual ancient Koine Greek text with the actual Greek alphabet, English words, Strong's reference number and using English letter words to sound like the ancient Koine Greek words.
Regarding Victor or VPW. He taught some factual biblical study that he learned from other people, for example E.W. Bullinger. He also taught some errant things that he came up with. Not everything he taught was true and not everything that he taught was false. As one example of true. I met him in 1984 at a conference, perhaps this was held in Tennessee. I walked up to him when he was with his best friend. I told him, "you look familiar, but I can't remember your name. But it sounds something like 'wear something'". Then Victor said, "Wherewolf. The three of us then giggled. And then I told him that I was sorry that "I will not call you Wherewolf". Then we giggled again.
Regarding TWI, I am going to be neutral. Some of the things that were taught us were true and some of the things that were taught were not true. We all need to do editing when we write things to help with increased factual information. Another example of what VPW taught that was true. At one of his teachings at an event I heard him say that some of you will do improved bible teachings and teach more than I have taught. I think we all agree with him on that.
I'm a Bibleworks user. They just shut down unfortunately.
What operating system do you use with Bibleworks? This might need some experimentation to get the bible software to work again on your computer. Perhaps simply exit out of the software. Shut down your computer. Then restart your computer and restart the software.
In looking at this forum thread perhaps I noticed it because I saw my first name "Mark". Then next to it I saw "Beast". Sorry, but I am not a "Beast". Perhaps I am too skinny to be a "Beast". This is for humor only. I hope I get you to giggle also.
What operating system do you use with Bibleworks? This might need some experimentation to get the bible software to work again on your computer. Perhaps simply exit out of the software. Shut down your computer. Then restart your computer and restart the software.
Either that or a purchase of an updated version.
No, the company that developed the software shutdown.
What operating system do you use with Bibleworks? This might need some experimentation to get the bible software to work again on your computer. Perhaps simply exit out of the software. Shut down your computer. Then restart your computer and restart the software.
Either that or a purchase of an updated version.
windows 10
it runs fine
some people are sticking with windows 7.
But they will make no new versioning and it is not available to buy licenses any more. And no support.
They now also have the biblesoft software that can be used on Mac computers. Before this software could only be used on Windows operating system computers. The price is high, but maybe they also have a lesser version available. However, in scanning the page with link above they have a large amount of biblical reference books that can be seen with this software on computers.
Good to hear from you also. I have been a worker bee and this includes also donating my time in biblical research in writing biblical articles. My goal is even to write a biblical researched book in the future. Hopefully by next year.
There may be a few on this board interested in this. I discovered some more evidence of past fulfillment of The Book of Revelation that I haven't read about before. In Revelation 11 the chapter on the "2 Witnesses", the beast from the abyss attacks the 2 Witnesses and their bodies lie in the " public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified(Rev 11:8). Obviously this is Jerusalem. Dispensationalists see this as a future Jerusalem, Preterists see this as Jerusalem during the Zealot siege early in 68AD.
Scroll down to verse 13 it mentions an earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake.
In Josephus Wars Book 4 Chapter 4 Verse 5 it states:
There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.
Then it proceeds to describe the Jewish Zealots taking advantage of the noise of the storm cutting the bars of the temple gates to allow Idumeans to enter and join them in slaughtering people.
In Josephus Wars Book 4 Chapter 5 Verse 1 states:
and now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there.
Josephus then records that the Idumaeans and the Jewish zealots succeeded in killing Ananus the high priest and his next-in-command, Jesus son of Gamalas (also known as Joshua), showing them much dishonor:
Then in Wars Book 4 Chapter 5 Verse 2:
“Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial. I should not make a mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city [when the Jews] beheld their high priest, the captain of their salvation, butchered in the heart of Jerusalem”
Not to say that Ananus and the next-in-command were the actual 2 witnesses of Rev. chapter 11 but it sheds light on the fact that the Zealots left bodies unburied to make a statement of what they thought of someone. Seems remarkably close to the biblical account to me.
The book of Revelation was often written in vague figurative and symbolic language which makes it more challenging for people to understand its content. I think the reason for this is because at this time of authorship the disciples and especially the apostles of Jesus Christ were getting persecuted and sometimes even murdered by the Roman Empire Beast of the 1st century. This was with the help of the bias and hateful religious beast or beasts, who were looking to gain religious power, while NOT being service oriented to humanity. It looks to me like this vaguely written book of Revelation wording in some chapters speaks of defeating the beasts. Whether they are political, religious or spiritual. Part of this defeating of the beasts is putting the spiritual beasts or demons referred to with symbolic language in a garbage dump (my own figurative language), while lessening their deception. Some of this may have been in past ages, centuries or years. Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation is obviously in the future because today we still have the deception of the God of this world.
Rev 20:1-3
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
NIV
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TLC
Interesting, in light of the near/far fulfillment pattern of many biblical prophecies.
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WordWolf
Since this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, would anyone (especially the original poster) care to share something about the guy in the video, or the content of the video? I'm not a big fan of a video link dump with no explanation as to why I should watch it or even how long it is.
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waysider
It's his own personal take on what the mark of the beast is. He offers no solid historical or scriptural basis for his opinion.
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T-Bone
He offers basically Preterism - and depending on one’s view of Preterism , the Book of Revelation can be interpreted as all or most of the events have already happened - speaker says Nero was the beast - and his “mark” on your person was what gave you access into the market place.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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WordWolf
But the market places were open places. Restricting access to them would be bad for business, and contrary to the culture. People LIKED the freewheeling feel of the market places. We modern folk may dislike them for what those people loved about them, but those were THEIR market places, not ours. Our malls are a LOT more sedate by comparison- except for Black Friday, say.
Thanks, both of you.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Before any verse is quoted from the book of Revelation it is important to see that this book is written with symbolically figurative and not literal language. The following is one paragraph from a reference book that I learn from, the Nelson’s Bible Dictionary.
Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child.
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers
The symbolic language of the book of Revelation also includes beast with the Roman empire being the beast of the first century under the hateful person Nero. The question is why was the book of Revelation written so vaguely with symbolic figurative imagery and not literal language? One possible reason is that books of the bible then were written in dangerous times under the Roman Empire who were persecuting the church of God. A number of apostles were likely even killed, which for no offense and with no punishment for this crime is the equivalent of legal murder. This includes the apostle Paul a Roman citizen, who may have been beheaded by Roman authorities. Because of unjust things like this in future years historically we saw the Roman Empire done away with and come to an end. Although an understanding of what many of these figurative symbols represented has been lost a truthful foundation of knowledge can still be understood. God is all powerful and eventually all the deception of the devil, the god of this age will be destroyed and cease to exist with Jesus Christ, who loves all of humanity and who I love reigning as king and Lord of all.
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Infoabsorption
Wow! Thanks Mark S.! I'm not used to having someone actually help me show evidence of past fulfillment.LOL Seems preterism is going through a new phase recently with Jonathan Welton's little grass-roots thing. The symbolism within certain sections of Revelation scream Roman Imperial Cult also know as "emperor worship" which began with Julias Caesar which many preterists see as the 1st horn of the sea beast. There is a lot on the internet about this but I've been searching for unbiased info where one doesn't have to sign up for an account to view the material so that I could just post a link and everybody could read it. Here is a good one to read if you have the time: http://www.academia.edu/250713/Imperial_Cult_and_Christianity_How_and_to_What_Extent_Were_the_Imperial_Cult_and_Emperor_Worship_thought_to_Preserve_Stability_in_the_Roman_World Scroll down to " IV. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HONOURS TO THE IMPERIAL FAMILY WERE REFUSED " to save some time.
There are some new points of view regarding the beasts of Revelation. There are actually 3 of them and they are not all the same beast. Some preterists including myself see the scarlet beast as Judean, not Roman. See my post titled "Alternative View of the Beasts of Revelation" for a detailed commentary.
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Mark Sanguinetti
History tends to repeat itself. Yes, we have had figurative beasts in previous years and centuries. Hopefully we will not have another beast soon. The best place for beasts is in a garbage dump. My own figurative language. Below is something that I copied from a reference manual that helps me with biblical research. I hope all is well in Florida and that you are not to hot there.
BEAST
Literally, an animal; figuratively, a symbol, often prophetic. The word beast is used literally in three ways in the Bible: (1) any animal, both CLEAN and UNCLEAN (Gen 6:7; 7:2; Lev 11:1-8); (2) a wild animal, as distinguished from domesticated animals (Gen 1:24; 7:21; 37:20; Ex 23:11); and (3) a domesticated animal (Gen 1:24; 2:20; Ex 19:13).
As a prophetic symbol, the word beast is used especially in the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. The four beasts of Daniel symbolize four cruel, tyrannical governments: (1) a lion (Babylon); (2) a bear (Media); (3) a leopard (Persia); and (4) a dreadful and terrible beast (Greece). See Dan 7:3-7. In the Book of Revelation, two beasts are described in detail: the beast from the sea, a composite of the four beasts of Daniel (Rev 13:1-10), and the beast from the land (Rev 13:11-18). Apparently, these two beasts symbolize political and religious power respectively.
In John's day, at the time when he wrote the Book of Revelation, the two "beasts" which opposed and persecuted the church were the Roman Empire (the political "beast from the sea") and the cult of emperor worship (the religious "beast from the land"). Together with the Dragon (Satan), they tried to destroy God's people.
The Bible often uses the word beast in other symbolical or figurative ways. For instance, the psalmist wrote, "I was like a beast before You" (Ps 73:22), referring to his foolish, ignorant, and brutish behavior. The apostle Paul wrote, "I have fought with beasts at Ephesus" (1 Cor 15:32) - a metaphor for the enemies who fought ferociously against him and the gospel of Christ which he preached.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
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chockfull
Good stuff Mark. It's amazing to see how much we missed in the Way by censoring other Christian sources.
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WordWolf
Of course twi censors other Christian sources- especially Christian history. vpw wouldn't have known church history if it bit him in the calf. He never studied it- he studied "homiletics", or "how to give a sermon." (Really, that was his grad school track? How to give a sermon? That needs an entire track?) So, since he didn't know church history, we were discouraged from learning it. vpw forbid we learned more than he did on a subject! We know he was clueless because when he made up the so-called "1942 promise", he claimed he would be taught "the Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st Century" while lacking an understanding of what they DID know in the 1st century. (The claim of the promise collapses under scrutiny because it's so error-ridden, which is one reason vpw kept it under wraps for the most part. Frankly, I think he was amazed it went as far as it did without everyone calling him on enormous bs.) Anyway, twi actively discouraged learning church history. Like all "cults", it also discouraged searching for knowledge outside its own influence. That some people did so anyway was in spite of twi trying to discourage it, not because it was encouraged.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I have and use very good bible study software that I use as a biblical reference with many biblical references. The software is named PC Study Bible. A company out of the state of Washington, BibleSoft. This software even has New Testament Koine Greek verse by verse text which was passed down over a number of centuries. It shows the actual ancient Koine Greek text with the actual Greek alphabet, English words, Strong's reference number and using English letter words to sound like the ancient Koine Greek words.
Regarding Victor or VPW. He taught some factual biblical study that he learned from other people, for example E.W. Bullinger. He also taught some errant things that he came up with. Not everything he taught was true and not everything that he taught was false. As one example of true. I met him in 1984 at a conference, perhaps this was held in Tennessee. I walked up to him when he was with his best friend. I told him, "you look familiar, but I can't remember your name. But it sounds something like 'wear something'". Then Victor said, "Wherewolf. The three of us then giggled. And then I told him that I was sorry that "I will not call you Wherewolf". Then we giggled again.
Regarding TWI, I am going to be neutral. Some of the things that were taught us were true and some of the things that were taught were not true. We all need to do editing when we write things to help with increased factual information. Another example of what VPW taught that was true. At one of his teachings at an event I heard him say that some of you will do improved bible teachings and teach more than I have taught. I think we all agree with him on that.
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chockfull
I'm a Bibleworks user. They just shut down unfortunately.
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Mark Sanguinetti
What operating system do you use with Bibleworks? This might need some experimentation to get the bible software to work again on your computer. Perhaps simply exit out of the software. Shut down your computer. Then restart your computer and restart the software.
Either that or a purchase of an updated version.
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Mark Sanguinetti
In looking at this forum thread perhaps I noticed it because I saw my first name "Mark". Then next to it I saw "Beast". Sorry, but I am not a "Beast". Perhaps I am too skinny to be a "Beast". This is for humor only. I hope I get you to giggle also.
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OldSkool
No, the company that developed the software shutdown.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here is a link to the biblical study software company. Yes, people like me use this software for biblical study. Bible Soft
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hey Mark!
great reading you again! Hiw’ve ya been and what are you up to these days??
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chockfull
windows 10
it runs fine
some people are sticking with windows 7.
But they will make no new versioning and it is not available to buy licenses any more. And no support.
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Mark Sanguinetti
https://store.biblesoft.com/products/963-pl1t-onetouch-pc-study-bible-professional-series.html
They now also have the biblesoft software that can be used on Mac computers. Before this software could only be used on Windows operating system computers. The price is high, but maybe they also have a lesser version available. However, in scanning the page with link above they have a large amount of biblical reference books that can be seen with this software on computers.
Good to hear from you also. I have been a worker bee and this includes also donating my time in biblical research in writing biblical articles. My goal is even to write a biblical researched book in the future. Hopefully by next year.
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Infoabsorption
There may be a few on this board interested in this. I discovered some more evidence of past fulfillment of The Book of Revelation that I haven't read about before. In Revelation 11 the chapter on the "2 Witnesses", the beast from the abyss attacks the 2 Witnesses and their bodies lie in the " public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified(Rev 11:8). Obviously this is Jerusalem. Dispensationalists see this as a future Jerusalem, Preterists see this as Jerusalem during the Zealot siege early in 68AD.
Scroll down to verse 13 it mentions an earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake.
In Josephus Wars Book 4 Chapter 4 Verse 5 it states:
There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.
Then it proceeds to describe the Jewish Zealots taking advantage of the noise of the storm cutting the bars of the temple gates to allow Idumeans to enter and join them in slaughtering people.
In Josephus Wars Book 4 Chapter 5 Verse 1 states:
and now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there.
Josephus then records that the Idumaeans and the Jewish zealots succeeded in killing Ananus the high priest and his next-in-command, Jesus son of Gamalas (also known as Joshua), showing them much dishonor:
Then in Wars Book 4 Chapter 5 Verse 2:
“Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial. I should not make a mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city [when the Jews] beheld their high priest, the captain of their salvation, butchered in the heart of Jerusalem”
Not to say that Ananus and the next-in-command were the actual 2 witnesses of Rev. chapter 11 but it sheds light on the fact that the Zealots left bodies unburied to make a statement of what they thought of someone. Seems remarkably close to the biblical account to me.
.
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Mark Sanguinetti
The book of Revelation was often written in vague figurative and symbolic language which makes it more challenging for people to understand its content. I think the reason for this is because at this time of authorship the disciples and especially the apostles of Jesus Christ were getting persecuted and sometimes even murdered by the Roman Empire Beast of the 1st century. This was with the help of the bias and hateful religious beast or beasts, who were looking to gain religious power, while NOT being service oriented to humanity. It looks to me like this vaguely written book of Revelation wording in some chapters speaks of defeating the beasts. Whether they are political, religious or spiritual. Part of this defeating of the beasts is putting the spiritual beasts or demons referred to with symbolic language in a garbage dump (my own figurative language), while lessening their deception. Some of this may have been in past ages, centuries or years. Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation is obviously in the future because today we still have the deception of the God of this world.
Rev 20:1-3
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
NIV
With Revelation chapters 20 to 22, which is in the future, it is less challenging for me to read and can be read now. I understand at least some of it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20-22&version=NIV
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