"Folded up in a separate place by itself"

[Twinky]

John 20:7

The wrapping that had been on His head was not lying with the linen cloths but was

folded up in a separate place by itself .

Some versions say "wrapped together by itself," some "rolled together" etc

I heard a very interesting comment made about this verse in church this morning.  I’ve never heard anything else taught about it; nor can I see anything in a commentary.

This, the young stand-in minister said, denoted a custom at the time.  When a master had eaten his fill of a meal, he’d get up, toss his napkin down and walk off.  This signified that any leftover food would be available for servants and slaves.

If, however, the master just got up, intending to return (perhaps he had to answer a call of nature; perhaps deal with some other household issue or a visitor), he would fold (or roll) up his napkin and leave it.  This signified to servants and slaves that he intended to return and finish his meal.

The minister’s thought was that the head napkin that had been bound about Jesus’s head being folded neatly signified his imminent return.

I wonder if anyone here has ever thought about this or read anything.  Most commentaries are written by academicians a very long time ago who may never have travelled far from their home countries and never visited any part of the middle-east.  It’s the kind of thing that one might think ought to be considered in “Manners & Customs” or “Light through an Eastern Window,” but there’s nothing.  M&C merely suggests it was a “handkerchief used to tie the chin up,” without further commentary. 

[JayDee]

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

John 20:7

 

 

 

 

 

Some versions say "wrapped together by itself," some "rolled together" etc

I heard a very interesting comment made about this verse in church this morning.  I’ve never heard anything else taught about it; nor can I see anything in a commentary.

 

 

This, the young stand-in minister said, denoted a custom at the time.  When a master had eaten his fill of a meal, he’d get up, toss his napkin down and walk off.  This signified that any leftover food would be available for servants and slaves.

 

 

If, however, the master just got up, intending to return (perhaps he had to answer a call of nature; perhaps deal with some other household issue or a visitor), he would fold (or roll) up his napkin and leave it.  This signified to servants and slaves that he intended to return and finish his meal.

 

 

The minister’s thought was that the head napkin that had been bound about Jesus’s head being folded neatly signified his imminent return.

 

 

I wonder if anyone here has ever thought about this or read anything.  Most commentaries are written by academicians a very long time ago who may never have travelled far from their home countries and never visited any part of the middle-east.  It’s the kind of thing that one might think ought to be considered in “Manners & Customs” or “Light through an Eastern Window,” but there’s nothing.  M&C merely suggests it was a “handkerchief used to tie the chin up,” without further commentary. 

I’ve read both sides of the discussion. Some say there is no Jewish tradition of folding the napkin or not. Others say there is. Personally, I don’t care. IMO He’s coming back. 

[Twinky]

I don't know that it would be a Jewish tradition - more like a Roman one.

Where, JayDee, have you read "both sides of the discussion"?  And, "both" sides?  What have you read?

Yes, HE'S COMING BACK. 

But what means "the napkin folded [or rolled] together by itself in a separate place"?  Must have been included for a reason.  It's a seemingly unimportant detail in a big narrative - where "big details" are often missing.  So it must have some special significance.

[T-Bone]

I’ve never heard of the "folded napkin/returning" custom but it does sound plausible – and I do believe he is coming back!

But I have thought of the dramatic effect that folded napkin must have had on those who investigated the tomb. It did not look like a vandalized gravesite – where thieves ransacked the place and stole Jesus’ body.

I imagine Jesus’ new body could have simply passed through burial wrappings and the walls of the tomb…however – I think the scene had to be a real mind-blower! The government sealed stone – that was guarded by Roman soldiers had been rolled away and the head wrap was neatly folded and set to one side. If I was there checking everything out I would have been thinking “ok – earthquake could have moved the stone – but the orderly condition of the grave clothes…minus one dead body, means someone ALIVE had to have done that.”

[JayDee]

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

I don't know that it would be a Jewish tradition - more like a Roman one.

Where, JayDee, have you read "both sides of the discussion"?  And, "both" sides?  What have you read?

Yes, HE'S COMING BACK. 

But what means "the napkin folded [or rolled] together by itself in a separate place"?  Must have been included for a reason.  It's a seemingly unimportant detail in a big narrative - where "big details" are often missing.  So it must have some special significance.

https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/207403-The-Folded-Napkin

https://www.truthorfiction.com/folded-napkin/

https://www.gotquestions.org/folded-napkin.html

http://isitinthebible.com/nt/napkin.htm

[Twinky]

Thanks for those links, JayDee.  A lot are self-referencing; the best link appears to be the last one, isitinthebible.

Hard, with commentaries, to sort out historical and cultural "fact" from private interpretation of commentators through centuries, which has-  become accepted as tradition - or worse, as truth.  Some state that the angels "evidently" folded the cloths; others state that Jesus did this (presumably equally "evidently")

I think I'll keep this in the "don't know" box for the time being, though I like T-Bone's summary as a working hypothesis - to get attention! "someone ALIVE had to have done that” - not only "done" it, but had time to do it in leisurely manner.  (If the "someone" were Roman guards, or temple guards, unlikely they'd have done anything in leisurely manner.  Anyway, they'd have stolen the entire body, wraps and all.) Hmm...

[chockfull]

Maybe he resurrected into his new body, passing through all the cloth, then decided to wipe his brow with the face cloth, fold it, and place it aside.   Because he could.

Maybe as he resurrected there was a magic God dust that folded the napkin all on its own and placed it gently.

Maybe there was a hobo that saw the stone rolled away real early before anyone else, went in, tripped over the face cloth, said "oh, sh1t", and folded it up and placed it aside before running away scared.

I guess I'm not a fundamentalist any more LOL.