What is it, really, to be born again or to enter the kingdom of God? And does (or how does) your answer to this fit with John 3:8?
4 hours ago, Taxidev said:
Being born again is to receive holy spirit within.
After reading what Spectrum showed me, I can respond. My answer to your question lines up perfectly with John 3:8. No one at the temple saw anything actually happen to the twelve. But they saw the result when they spoke in tongues. And they also saw the result when Peter stood up and gave the greatest impromptu teaching I know of.
There's a variance of meanings in the phrase "born again." (for example, see Acts 13:33)
And it's not "what" the new man is, but rather, who.
New life? Yes, being it's that of the new man.
What is it, really, to be born again or to enter the kingdom of God? And does (or how does) your answer to this fit with John 3:8?
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (This has already been covered, per a link)
Perhaps this is a slight deviation from the topic, but for what it's worth, here goes:
One thing which was presented quite accurately (in that other ministry, yet copied from elsewhere!) concerns the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God. (For brevity's sake, I'll not belabor myself to show the subtleties of the distinction between them here.) Basically:
(1) The kingdom of God is overall, covering everything concerning God's own kingdom --- which (of course) includes the spiritual realm.
(2) However, the kingdom of heaven is rather limited to an earthly kingdom. You may recall how John the Baptist frequently remarked: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Later on, just after Jesus had heard John was in prison...to be beheaded...he began using that phrase himself --- taking over where John had left off, as it were.)
Anyway: Even though the (earthly) kingdom of heaven "was at hand", that doesn't necessarily mean it was a valid statement --- as of yet! (After all, to properly have a kingdom upon earth requires the physical presence of a king; and technically, Jesus wasn't yet a king; those of Israel merely assumed so at the time.)
[Now: There's a rather mysterious reason why God allowed Israel to (falsely) proclaim Jesus as King of the Jews, even though it wasn't yet an actual reality. But I won't go into that aspect here and now. Let it suffice that (later on) Jesus will rule as a king upon earth.]
[And that's where The Way had another thing correct: But as usual, the info was obtained (actually, plagiarized) from another source, long before PFAL.]
And this concerns how the kingdom of heavenwas discontinued after Jesus departed --- and is still being held in abeyance until his return (in Revelation) when he receives his official title as King of Kings, after which he'll rule his kingdom upon earth (the finally realizedkingdom of heaven...duh!) for 1,000 years (aka: the millennium).
Meanwhile, he's a resident of God's Kingdom. And it appears that he's the only one so far...who was once human. (The angels have resided there from antiquity.) Although being subjects of the realm isn't yet a virtual reality for us, we're informed in a figure that (spiritually speaking, mind you!) it's a present reality for us --- even as "we're already seated in the heavenlies", per Ephesians.
And the reason this is so is because (as I said earlier) the Kingdom of God includes the spiritual realm, to which we have been initiated (baptized into) --- per our obedience to Ro 10:9, which pertains to the new birth (lit: born from above;ie: having received spiritual life).
Nevertheless, what we have presently (though quite vast in itself!) is a merely a portion (earnest; or token, per Eph 1:14) of what we shall have in full, even as Jesus Christ has presently.
So yes...technically Jesus is the only actual subject of The Kingdom of God, because (per Mk 16:19) he ascended to God's throne. But sometime later on, we'll join him there, where God rules as THE KING.
(1) The kingdom of God is overall, covering everything concerning God's own kingdom --- which (of course) includes the spiritual realm.
(2) However, the kingdom of heaven is rather limited to an earthly kingdom.
4 hours ago, spectrum49 said:
Anyway: Even though the (earthly) kingdom of heaven "was at hand", that doesn't necessarily mean it was a valid statement --- as of yet!
Thank you, Spectrum. Yes, now I recall this from the foundational class, although I think you explained it better in these few sentences than what I remember from the class. But, that could be due to my faded memory.
So, this actually adds to my response to TLC, in that receiving holy spirit we are also seated in the heavenlies with Jesus Christ. Without that spirit within we can make no such claim.
Thank you, Spectrum. Yes, now I recall this from the foundational class, although I think you explained it better in these few sentences than what I remember from the class. But, that could be due to my faded memory.
So, this actually adds to my response to TLC, in that receiving holy spirit we are also seated in the heavenlies with Jesus Christ. Without that spirit within we can make no such claim.
Glad to help! As I had indicated earlier: Although this is "somewhat more remote" in context with the actual record of Pentecost (Act 2:1-4, etc) it does indeed relate. (In fact, the entire Word from Gen to Rev is basically telling only one story --- of which we perceive baptism to be a rather important aspect.)
FWIW, the "mighty rushing wind" referred to in this section could have been an earthquake. I recall being in a minor EQ years ago - heard this rushing roaring wind sound along the gully that my house stood above (the gully is actually an earthquake fault line) - nothing to be seen, leaves on trees not moving, everything outside still. Then, the house gave a rock, a bit of a shake, nothing significant. By the time I'd formed the idea, it's an EQ, hide under the door jamb - the EQ, a sort of pressure wave, had passed. Others at work mentioned it briefly, so I know I didn't dream it all. But it really did sound like a big powerful noisy wind rushing along the gully.
Since then, I've often wondered if there were a minor EQ at the time of Pentecost.
The land at that place is subject to EQs, and we know from Biblical records that there was an EQ at the time of Jesus's death (Mt 27:51, EQ not mentioned in other gospels).
I'm not going to offer suggestions on the "tongues like as fire" - could be some natural explanations, could be entirely a supernatural vision.
...I had met former wayers that said they were hyperventilating trying to receive holy spirit...
You mean, like Cornelius and his household did, when they had the gospel spoken to them, and spontaneously spoke in tongues? (Acts 10:10-16) Not much indication of hyperventilating here:
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
FWIW, the "mighty rushing wind" referred to in this section could have been an earthquake. I recall being in a minor EQ years ago - heard this rushing roaring wind sound along the gully that my house stood above (the gully is actually an earthquake fault line) - nothing to be seen, leaves on trees not moving, everything outside still. Then, the house gave a rock, a bit of a shake, nothing significant. By the time I'd formed the idea, it's an EQ, hide under the door jamb - the EQ, a sort of pressure wave, had passed. Others at work mentioned it briefly, so I know I didn't dream it all. But it really did sound like a big powerful noisy wind rushing along the gully.
Since then, I've often wondered if there were a minor EQ at the time of Pentecost.
The land at that place is subject to EQs, and we know from Biblical records that there was an EQ at the time of Jesus's death (Mt 27:51, EQ not mentioned in other gospels).
I'm not going to offer suggestions on the "tongues like as fire" - could be some natural explanations, could be entirely a supernatural vision.
That sounds entirely feasible to me! Surely, God (via foreknowledge) could have planned an earthquake he knew was coming to coincide with the monumental event at Pentecost.
FWIW, the "mighty rushing wind" referred to in this section could have been an earthquake.
It could have been, but the text reads: "Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind"
That "as" means just like, but it doesn't mean it actually was a rushing mighty wind. It just sounded like one. There may have been no air movement at all. And it, like the cloven tongues, could very well have been only noticed by the twelve, meaning it was revelation only for them. I think if the other people in the temple had seen and heard those things, then no one could have suggested the twelve were drunk on new wine.
(1) The kingdom of God is overall, covering everything concerning God's own kingdom --- which (of course) includes the spiritual realm.
(2) However, the kingdom of heaven is rather limited to an earthly kingdom. You may recall how John the Baptist frequently remarked: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Later on, just after Jesus had heard John was in prison...to be beheaded...he began using that phrase himself --- taking over where John had left off, as it were.)
Anyway: Even though the (earthly) kingdom of heaven "was at hand", that doesn't necessarily mean it was a valid statement --- as of yet! (After all, to properly have a kingdom upon earth requires the physical presence of a king; and technically, Jesus wasn't yet a king; those of Israel merely assumed so at the time.)
[Now: There's a rather mysterious reason why God allowed Israel to (falsely) proclaim Jesus as King of the Jews, even though it wasn't yet an actual reality. But I won't go into that aspect here and now. Let it suffice that (later on) Jesus will rule as a king upon earth.]
[And that's where The Way had another thing correct: But as usual, the info was obtained (actually, plagiarized) from another source, long before PFAL.]
And this concerns how the kingdom of heavenwas discontinued after Jesus departed --- and is still being held in abeyance until his return (in Revelation) when he receives his official title as King of Kings, after which he'll rule his kingdom upon earth (the finally realizedkingdom of heaven...duh!) for 1,000 years (aka: the millennium).
Meanwhile, he's a resident of God's Kingdom. And it appears that he's the only one so far...who was once human. (The angels have resided there from antiquity.) Although being subjects of the realm isn't yet a virtual reality for us, we're informed in a figure that (spiritually speaking, mind you!) it's a present reality for us --- even as "we're already seated in the heavenlies", per Ephesians.
And the reason this is so is because (as I said earlier) the Kingdom of God includes the spiritual realm, to which we have been initiated (baptized into) --- per our obedience to Ro 10:9, which pertains to the new birth (lit: born from above;ie: having received spiritual life).
Nevertheless, what we have presently (though quite vast in itself!) is a merely a portion (earnest; or token, per Eph 1:14) of what we shall have in full, even as Jesus Christ has presently.
So yes...technically Jesus is the only actual subject of The Kingdom of God, because (per Mk 16:19) he ascended to God's throne. But sometime later on, we'll join him there, where God rules as THE KING.
I look at this from a completely different perspective now. I strongly disagree with your dispensational approach that John The Baptist's statement was not valid at the time he made the statement. Christ said that some would still be alive and witness his coming in his kingdom: (Matthew 16: 27-28) . It was near to them just like John the Baptist, Jesus, and James(James 5:8) stated. Also Paul in Romans 13:11. How these verses got thrust thousands of years into the future is baffling. Christ never said his Kingdom was here on earth. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world." That is why they called it the "Kingdom of Heaven". The picture of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven described in Revelation has been literalized and then connected with Isaiah chapter 11. Problem is Isaiah chapter 11 isn't describing the 1000 years. Paul explains the symbolism in Romans chapter 15.
Again, it says,“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[d]11 And again,“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him.”[e]12 And again, Isaiah says,“The Root of Jesse will spring up,one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”[f]
I look at this from a completely different perspective now. I strongly disagree with your dispensational approach that John The Baptist's statement was not valid at the time he made the statement. Christ said that some would still be alive and witness his coming in his kingdom: (Matthew 16: 27-28) . It was near to them just like John the Baptist, Jesus, and James(James 5:8) stated. Also Paul in Romans 13:11. How these verses got thrust thousands of years into the future is baffling. Christ never said his Kingdom was here on earth. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world." That is why they called it the "Kingdom of Heaven". The picture of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven described in Revelation has been literalized and then connected with Isaiah chapter 11. Problem is Isaiah chapter 11 isn't describing the 1000 years. Paul explains the symbolism in Romans chapter 15.
Again, it says,“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[d]11 And again,“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him.”[e]12 And again, Isaiah says,“The Root of Jesse will spring up,one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”[f]
As I had indicated: "Perhaps this[what you quoted of me]is a slight deviation from the topic, but for what it's worth, here goes:" Certainly we differ on this. Because it's tangential to the Topic (Act 2:1-4) it should be discussed elsewhere, on its own. But thanks for "your take" on it.
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Taxidev
After reading what Spectrum showed me, I can respond. My answer to your question lines up perfectly with John 3:8. No one at the temple saw anything actually happen to the twelve. But they saw the result when they spoke in tongues. And they also saw the result when Peter stood up and gave the greatest impromptu teaching I know of.
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spectrum49
Perhaps this is a slight deviation from the topic, but for what it's worth, here goes:
One thing which was presented quite accurately (in that other ministry, yet copied from elsewhere!) concerns the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God. (For brevity's sake, I'll not belabor myself to show the subtleties of the distinction between them here.) Basically:
(1) The kingdom of God is overall, covering everything concerning God's own kingdom --- which (of course) includes the spiritual realm.
(2) However, the kingdom of heaven is rather limited to an earthly kingdom. You may recall how John the Baptist frequently remarked: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Later on, just after Jesus had heard John was in prison...to be beheaded...he began using that phrase himself --- taking over where John had left off, as it were.)
Anyway: Even though the (earthly) kingdom of heaven "was at hand", that doesn't necessarily mean it was a valid statement --- as of yet! (After all, to properly have a kingdom upon earth requires the physical presence of a king; and technically, Jesus wasn't yet a king; those of Israel merely assumed so at the time.)
[Now: There's a rather mysterious reason why God allowed Israel to (falsely) proclaim Jesus as King of the Jews, even though it wasn't yet an actual reality. But I won't go into that aspect here and now. Let it suffice that (later on) Jesus will rule as a king upon earth.]
[And that's where The Way had another thing correct: But as usual, the info was obtained (actually, plagiarized) from another source, long before PFAL.]
And this concerns how the kingdom of heaven was discontinued after Jesus departed --- and is still being held in abeyance until his return (in Revelation) when he receives his official title as King of Kings, after which he'll rule his kingdom upon earth (the finally realized kingdom of heaven...duh!) for 1,000 years (aka: the millennium).
Meanwhile, he's a resident of God's Kingdom. And it appears that he's the only one so far...who was once human. (The angels have resided there from antiquity.) Although being subjects of the realm
isn't yet a virtual reality for us, we're informed in a figure that (spiritually speaking, mind you!) it's a present reality for us --- even as "we're already seated in the heavenlies", per Ephesians.
And the reason this is so is because (as I said earlier) the Kingdom of God includes the spiritual realm, to which we have been initiated (baptized into) --- per our obedience to Ro 10:9, which pertains to the new birth (lit: born from above; ie: having received spiritual life).
Nevertheless, what we have presently (though quite vast in itself!) is a merely a portion (earnest; or token, per Eph 1:14) of what we shall have in full, even as Jesus Christ has presently.
So yes...technically Jesus is the only actual subject of The Kingdom of God, because (per Mk 16:19) he ascended to God's throne. But sometime later on, we'll join him there, where God rules as THE KING.
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Taxidev
Thank you, Spectrum. Yes, now I recall this from the foundational class, although I think you explained it better in these few sentences than what I remember from the class. But, that could be due to my faded memory.
So, this actually adds to my response to TLC, in that receiving holy spirit we are also seated in the heavenlies with Jesus Christ. Without that spirit within we can make no such claim.
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spectrum49
Glad to help! As I had indicated earlier: Although this is "somewhat more remote" in context with the actual record of Pentecost (Act 2:1-4, etc) it does indeed relate.
(In fact, the entire Word from Gen to Rev is basically telling only one story --- of which we perceive baptism to be a rather important aspect.)
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Twinky
FWIW, the "mighty rushing wind" referred to in this section could have been an earthquake. I recall being in a minor EQ years ago - heard this rushing roaring wind sound along the gully that my house stood above (the gully is actually an earthquake fault line) - nothing to be seen, leaves on trees not moving, everything outside still. Then, the house gave a rock, a bit of a shake, nothing significant. By the time I'd formed the idea, it's an EQ, hide under the door jamb - the EQ, a sort of pressure wave, had passed. Others at work mentioned it briefly, so I know I didn't dream it all. But it really did sound like a big powerful noisy wind rushing along the gully.
Since then, I've often wondered if there were a minor EQ at the time of Pentecost.
The land at that place is subject to EQs, and we know from Biblical records that there was an EQ at the time of Jesus's death (Mt 27:51, EQ not mentioned in other gospels).
I'm not going to offer suggestions on the "tongues like as fire" - could be some natural explanations, could be entirely a supernatural vision.
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Twinky
You mean, like Cornelius and his household did, when they had the gospel spoken to them, and spontaneously spoke in tongues? (Acts 10:10-16) Not much indication of hyperventilating here:
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spectrum49
That sounds entirely feasible to me! Surely, God (via foreknowledge) could have planned an earthquake he knew was coming to coincide with the monumental event at Pentecost.
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Taxidev
That's because they didn't have TWI foundational class. HA!
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Taxidev
It could have been, but the text reads: "Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind"
That "as" means just like, but it doesn't mean it actually was a rushing mighty wind. It just sounded like one. There may have been no air movement at all. And it, like the cloven tongues, could very well have been only noticed by the twelve, meaning it was revelation only for them. I think if the other people in the temple had seen and heard those things, then no one could have suggested the twelve were drunk on new wine.
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Infoabsorption
I look at this from a completely different perspective now. I strongly disagree with your dispensational approach that John The Baptist's statement was not valid at the time he made the statement. Christ said that some would still be alive and witness his coming in his kingdom: (Matthew 16: 27-28) . It was near to them just like John the Baptist, Jesus, and James(James 5:8) stated. Also Paul in Romans 13:11. How these verses got thrust thousands of years into the future is baffling. Christ never said his Kingdom was here on earth. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world." That is why they called it the "Kingdom of Heaven". The picture of the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven described in Revelation has been literalized and then connected with Isaiah chapter 11. Problem is Isaiah chapter 11 isn't describing the 1000 years. Paul explains the symbolism in Romans chapter 15.
Again, it says,“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[d]11 And again,“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him.”[e]12 And again, Isaiah says,“The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope.”[f]
Isaiah 11 was fulfilled in Paul's day and will continue into eternity(new heavens & earth Isaiah 65:17-25). The Gentiles(Wolves) coming together with the Israelites(lambs) in the new covenant is what this is referring to: https://adammaarschalk.com/2012/01/29/romans-15-shows-that-isaiah-11-is-fulfilled/
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spectrum49
As I had indicated: "Perhaps this [what you quoted of me] is a slight deviation from the topic, but for what it's worth, here goes:" Certainly we differ on this. Because it's tangential to the Topic (Act 2:1-4) it should be discussed elsewhere, on its own. But thanks for "your take" on it.
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