That’s a great way to handle the cognitive dissonance issues, OutandAbout ! Thanks for sharing.
You know what’s weird - when you talked about “hearing” Craig’s voice trying to counter your own thoughts - I recalled in “VP and Me” of Craig sharing how he supposedly grew in walking by revelation by first “hearing” wierwille’s voice or “seeing” him (in his mind/memory) in a situation as far as how to handle something...guess it was just another nefarious mind-fvck that wierwille had sowed into the corps program... just my 2-bit theory anyway.
That’s a great way to handle the cognitive dissonance issues, OutandAbout ! Thanks for sharing.
You know what’s weird - when you talked about “hearing” Craig’s voice trying to counter your own thoughts - I recalled in “VP and Me” of Craig sharing how he supposedly grew in walking by revelation by first “hearing” wierwille’s voice or “seeing” him (in his mind/memory) in a situation as far as how to handle something...guess it was just another nefarious mind-fvck that wierwille had sowed into the corps program... just my 2-bit theory anyway.
In my first post I said this thread is all about the deceitful, manipulative, and underhanded methods that The Way International frequently employs…However, I believe there were some good people in it when I was involved – as there probably still are today – and so I wanted to mention the difference between a manipulator and a motivator (an honest person of influence).
I found this article that addresses the difference and thought some folks might find it interesting – so from Psychology Today article are the following excerpts:
“…You can think of it as the difference between influence and manipulation. I checked these words out in the dictionary and actually they are pretty close in definition. They both involve “producing an effect in another person without apparent exertion of force.”
But manipulation is defined as “having control over others by having the ability to influence their behavior (emotions) and their actions so things can go in the manipulator’s favor” and “to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.” In my experience, a manipulator tends to play on others’ fears, greed (a form of fear) or guilt. Those being manipulated feel pressured, trapped, or angry.
In contrast, the word influence has an ancient root in the Middle English word for “emanation of the stars.” Definitions include “the emanation of moral or spiritual force.” People who are influential tend to be charismatic and admirable. We are inspired by them and aspire to be like them. We feel good around them. (Of course, not all influences are good, but have you noticed that we need to say “bad” influence to clarify a negative effect, but we never have to add “bad” to manipulation?)
When I think of manipulation, I think of someone who cares only about his own needs, a person who puts his self-interest above that of others. For instance, toddlers, who are naturally self-centered and convinced of their own omnipotence, can be excellent manipulators. They’re savvy enough to have figured out Mom or Dad’s hot buttons and they’ll push those buttons relentlessly to get exactly what they want...
…Compared to manipulation, influence has a more positive connotation that takes into consideration others’ needs and desires. As parents, we want to influence our kids to be healthy and safe. As friends, we want to influence our friends to happy and fulfilled. As business owners, we want to influence our clients to be successful and prosperous. We want what is best for those in our “sphere of influence.” ”
== == == == ==
some differences I see is that a manipulator is dishonest and self-centered – only concerned with achieving what they want – merely using the needs and desires of others as a means to compel them toward that end. Whereas a motivator…someone influential, considers the needs and desires of others and works to help them define, focus and achieve what they really want.
Along those lines I found an article in Christianity Today on motivation versus manipulation:
“It has been said the difference between motivation and manipulation is the quenching of thirst. If so, the key for leaders is to look for thirsty people and identify their thirst. Effective motivators ask themselves, What kind of water do I have to satisfy that kind of thirst?”
I tend to think a motivator is an honest person with a broad altruistic streak running down their back – maybe that’s how they recognize a desire…a thirst or an interest that is already present within someone – something they want to achieve – and the motivator wants to honestly help them get there.
A manipulator camouflages their goals under the guise of appearing as things that you want...
Why did I join the way corps?
I wanted to grow spiritually, become a stronger believer, and find out what my special calling was…
and how was that achieved?
I’ll tell you how! By re-hashing PFAL, hitching to LEAD / rock climbing, the work program, stringing chairs, getting corps sponsorship together, corps night teachings of "the word" (ahem...and I quote "doctor wierwille said this...doctor wierwille said that.." ), bless patrol, going light-bearers, research papers focused on regurgitating PFAL…
spiritual growth? naw, life is slowly choked out by the stifling stagnation of spiritual darkness (if what you think is "light" or illumination in your mind - and it's actually darkness - how great is that darkness! Because you think that is light !!! )
becoming a stronger believer - translation = being closed-minded and wierwille-centric; knowing PFAL like the back of my hand - which has the crib notes for all 12 sessions.
find out what my special calling was - - heavy revelation here - ta-dah ! I can aspire to be a top notch flunky for The Way International.
But when you look past the veneer of Christianity, past the mindless repetition of busywork (those cheap ba$tards) , and see that you've hung all your aspirations on wierwille and company blowing smoke up you’re a$$ - then you realize you’ve been had by manipulators – welcome to the world of cult indoctrination TWI-style...those supermassive a$$holes !
Reflecting on where my head was at around the time that I left - I was a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions - and I’m sure some of that dread of the unknown while I was on the verge of leaving TWI was from those manipulative lies that were sown into my thought processes; was I about to commit spiritual suicide?
What is truly surprising though - it seemed to be my most darkest hour - yet it was about to be an eye-opening dawn of true freedom...it takes some time but your eyes will adjust to the light (meaning your intellect and emotions will eventually catch up with reality - so relatively speaking life life gets a little less complicated and difficult ).
funny how wierwille’s foreboding words of oblivion - that any “blessed” or “abundant” qualities in my life would disappear as I with full knowledge supposedly turned my back on god - and dove head first into some black hole of unbelief - what a surprise to find out in choosing to leave TWI - that one brave “little “ decision enabled me to escape TWI’s supermassive black hole!
Reflecting on where my head was at around the time that I left - I was a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions - and I’m sure some of that dread of the unknown while I was on the verge of leaving TWI was from those manipulative lies that were sown into my thought processes; was I about to commit spiritual suicide?
What is truly surprising though - it seemed to be my most darkest hour - yet it was about to be an eye-opening dawn of true freedom...it takes some time but your eyes will adjust to the light (meaning your intellect and emotions will eventually catch up with reality - so relatively speaking life life gets a little less complicated and difficult ).
funny how wierwille’s foreboding words of oblivion - that any “blessed” or “abundant” qualities in my life would disappear as I with full knowledge supposedly turned my back on god - and dove head first into some black hole of unbelief - what a surprise to find out in choosing to leave TWI - that one brave “little “ decision enabled me to escape TWI’s supermassive black hole!
MIGHT... your eyes MIGHT adjust to the light... but almost for sure not if you continue to cling to the Wierwille mystique, a la splinter group style.
MIGHT... your eyes MIGHT adjust to the light... but almost for sure not if you continue to cling to the Wierwille mystique, a la splinter group style.
Which brings us back to what I said before :“If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” (Matthew 6: 23). In other words, if you think wierwille has enlightened you – then you really are in a heap of supermassive darkness. “
Ah, will the circle be unbroken, my friends - or rather - will the vicious cycle of wierwille-centric doctrine & practice continue to draw followers ever inward to darkness? Unfortunately, If one doesn’t break free from the wierwille orbit - the answer is yes.
I know what you're thinking...just when I thought I was out – they keep pulling me back in it’s almost like this thread actual exerts a subtle gravitational pull…well…if you stuck it out this far you probably need a break…all this manipulative stuff can be so depressing sometimes…soooooooo – let’s lighten up…how about a musical interlude !
let’s expand our awareness of the song (in other words - let's kill some time, shall we)…here’s the tune that started it all:
their live version at Wembley Stadium I like the live version - you get a mix of the crowd’s energy with the performance – adding fuel to the fire…studio albums are cool – but I’m always in awe when a band can pull off a good live performance.
Muse's alternative live version this is cool cuz it’s live but it’s just Muse – no audience distraction…a laser-focused vibe - it's clean and sharp!
cover by Mrs. Beat she’s got some set of pipes! maybe a little overproduced but I like the effects and mixing of all her voices.
cover by Female Solution I like this version because the lead singer gives it an edgy and somewhat soulful touch – she definitely has an attitude… and I think she looks like a young Cybil Shepherd…it's a short and sweet version - I wish it was longer...they had something good going on...the band sounds tight and crisp – like a fresh potato chip
2 Cellos cover with Naya Rivera ...this was the video I used in my very first post...it gets your attention doesn't it?...I love this arrangement by 2 Cellos and with Naya this one is by far the most seductive version…which is actually another level of a cult’s attraction, if you think about it - think love-bombing …but anyway I actually like this more than the original by Muse – makes me think of Joe Cocker – even though I love The Beatles - I like his versions of The Beatles’ “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window”, “With a Little Help from My Friends”, and “Come Together” (which Joe sings in “Across the Universe” movie)…and I’m not knocking Muse either; it was actually 2 Cellos’ version that got me into checking out Muse – so I bought their Live at Rome Olympic Stadium CD – love it!
cover by Tiffany Page note funny pronunciation of “Glacier” – sounds like Glay-see-ur …Tiffany does have a deep sexy voice. Her's is actually deeper than the guy accompanying her.
If you’ve got this far you should get a medal or something …well, anyway - thanks for reading my posts - hope you enjoyed listening to the alternate versions of Supermassive Black Hole...have a good night!
Edited by T-Bone oooh baby don't you know i suffer...oooh baby can't you hear me moan...I've sat here watching videos forever...to pay the rent I'll have to get a loan...
It IS relevant. But we mustn't judge whether others are as able as Elizabeth S to move on and take charge of their emotional destiny. Thanks for sharing the link.
I dare say that most of us who have been here at Greasespot Cafe HAVE moved on and no longer allow twi to control our lives, our moods, our interactions with others. But it's a process that takes different times for each individual. One thing Elizabeth had and has is strong family ties with tremendous emotional support. That's one of the things GSC can help with to some extent.
It IS relevant. But we mustn't judge whether others are as able as Elizabeth S to move on and take charge of their emotional destiny. Thanks for sharing the link.
I dare say that most of us who have been here at Greasespot Cafe HAVE moved on and no longer allow twi to control our lives, our moods, our interactions with others. But it's a process that takes different times for each individual. One thing Elizabeth had and has is strong family ties with tremendous emotional support. That's one of the things GSC can help with to some extent.
Rocky, excellent post! I know the GSC, has helped me move on with my life. I know my time in the TWI, left me with a lot of questions; why did I put up with so much Donkey Dung, for so many years. I think that the GSC has helped my process my time with that cult. Quite honestly, I had some great times in TWI, and met some wonderful people, for which I am thankful. However, now I know that I had to deal with a lot of Bullsheet also. For example, there was a lot of pressure, to ABS, and go WOW, and Corps, even when it was not in my best interest to do so. I took the AC, and it was a huge waste of time, and money. But, I felt a lot of pressure to take it, so I did. Big mistake on my part, but it was a learning experience for me. When I was finally ready to join the Navy, Brenda H from the 14th Corps, wanted me to go WOW again, and I told her, I wasn't going to go again, once was more than enough. So instead of going WOW, or Corps, I joined the Navy. For me, it was a good decision. But, I know from reading the GSC, many people regret the years they spent in TWI; they could have used those years getting an education, or building their careers. They will never get those years back. Rocky, I think most of us stayed in TWI, because we loved God, and wanted to live a Godly life. However, VPW and his inner circle, lived ungodly lives, and destroyed those around them.
Rocky, excellent post! I know the GSC, has helped me move on with my life. I know my time in the TWI, left me with a lot of questions; why did I put up with so much Donkey Dung, for so many years. I think that the GSC has helped my process my time with that cult. Quite honestly, I had some great times in TWI, and met some wonderful people, for which I am thankful. However, now I know that I had to deal with a lot of Bullsheet also. For example, there was a lot of pressure, to ABS, and go WOW, and Corps, even when it was not in my best interest to do so. I took the AC, and it was a huge waste of time, and money. But, I felt a lot of pressure to take it, so I did. Big mistake on my part, but it was a learning experience for me. When I was finally ready to join the Navy, Brenda H from the 14th Corps, wanted me to go WOW again, and I told her, I wasn't going to go again, once was more than enough. So instead of going WOW, or Corps, I joined the Navy. For me, it was a good decision. But, I know from reading the GSC, many people regret the years they spent in TWI; they could have used those years getting an education, or building their careers. They will never get those years back. Rocky, I think most of us stayed in TWI, because we loved God, and wanted to live a Godly life. However, VPW and his inner circle, lived ungodly lives, and destroyed those around them.
That's certainly a big part of it. Perhaps another major reason was the sense of belonging we had as a part of what the cult labeled the "household of God."
For many years before and during my time in TWI, I couldn't figure out why people stayed in denominational Christian churches that had glaring major flaws. They often overlooked those flaws because of their "tribe." They had people they felt comfortable with, they felt they belonged.
That's certainly a big part of it. Perhaps another major reason was the sense of belonging we had as a part of what the cult labeled the "household of God."
For many years before and during my time in TWI, I couldn't figure out why people stayed in denominational Christian churches that had glaring major flaws. They often overlooked those flaws because of their "tribe." They had people they felt comfortable with, they felt they belonged.
Rocky, bingo!! I think perhaps that is why I stayed in TWI, for so many years. I felt a sense of belonging I had never experienced before.
Elizabeth’s story is very moving – thanks for sharing that link…I was especially struck by her attitude after the ordeal – inspired by her mom’s advice to NOT let the kidnappers and all she went through for 9 months continue to have a hold on her; another amazing thing she talked about was forgiveness – and that it really was something for herself…she didn’t elaborate a whole lot on that point – but the relevancy to this thread really got me! Setting aside the contrast of her situation and former cult-followers (she was kidnapped vs folks who voluntarily join a cult – though at the time they may not have been aware of that) - - I think that forgiving oneself (whatever that may mean to you) is a large part of breaking the hold a cult may have had on the person; for me forgiveness meant not beating myself up for all the dumb decisions I'd made and all the dumb things I accepted without exercising any critical thinking skills.
== == ==
Grace:
I love it when you share details of your journey – exercising your critical thinking skills to not buy into everything while you were involved in TWI – but instead taking charge of your destiny – joining the Navy; I’m with you on your great point – to be thankful for the good people that I’d met in TWI; those sweet relationships were one of the toughest things we had to go against when we started thinking about leaving - see my comments to Rocky below.
== == ==
Rocky:
You’ve got some tremendous points on social ties and emotional support; Skyrider has started a number of great threads on the social ties – both the good and bad aspects of social ties; for me, one of the factors that weighed heavily in whether or not to leave TWI was the fear of losing contact with all of our friends…and in thinking about what I said to Grace, maybe there was a little bit of the Stockholm Syndrome in the way I felt torn about TWI.
In ’86 my wife and I were pretty much the only ones who left our corps – it wasn’t until some years later that I was aware of a few others leaving; it’s not like we didn’t make an effort to reach out to our corps brethren and sistren - we were writing letters and even made some phone calls – but alas – we were on our own; the emotional support would have been nice – if folks weren’t so stuck in that mindset of thinking we were possessed, tricked by the devil, tripped out - - or all of the above - and more!...of course the emotional support from Grease Spot folks is a tremendously healing thing !
== == ==
Edited by T-Bone "go the mass has ended...thanks be to God" a fond memory of the Roman Catholic church
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T-Bone
That’s a great way to handle the cognitive dissonance issues, OutandAbout ! Thanks for sharing.
You know what’s weird - when you talked about “hearing” Craig’s voice trying to counter your own thoughts - I recalled in “VP and Me” of Craig sharing how he supposedly grew in walking by revelation by first “hearing” wierwille’s voice or “seeing” him (in his mind/memory) in a situation as far as how to handle something...guess it was just another nefarious mind-fvck that wierwille had sowed into the corps program... just my 2-bit theory anyway.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone,
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T-Bone
In my first post I said this thread is all about the deceitful, manipulative, and underhanded methods that The Way International frequently employs…However, I believe there were some good people in it when I was involved – as there probably still are today – and so I wanted to mention the difference between a manipulator and a motivator (an honest person of influence).
I found this article that addresses the difference and thought some folks might find it interesting – so from Psychology Today article are the following excerpts:
“…You can think of it as the difference between influence and manipulation. I checked these words out in the dictionary and actually they are pretty close in definition. They both involve “producing an effect in another person without apparent exertion of force.”
But manipulation is defined as “having control over others by having the ability to influence their behavior (emotions) and their actions so things can go in the manipulator’s favor” and “to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.” In my experience, a manipulator tends to play on others’ fears, greed (a form of fear) or guilt. Those being manipulated feel pressured, trapped, or angry.
In contrast, the word influence has an ancient root in the Middle English word for “emanation of the stars.” Definitions include “the emanation of moral or spiritual force.” People who are influential tend to be charismatic and admirable. We are inspired by them and aspire to be like them. We feel good around them. (Of course, not all influences are good, but have you noticed that we need to say “bad” influence to clarify a negative effect, but we never have to add “bad” to manipulation?)
When I think of manipulation, I think of someone who cares only about his own needs, a person who puts his self-interest above that of others. For instance, toddlers, who are naturally self-centered and convinced of their own omnipotence, can be excellent manipulators. They’re savvy enough to have figured out Mom or Dad’s hot buttons and they’ll push those buttons relentlessly to get exactly what they want...
…Compared to manipulation, influence has a more positive connotation that takes into consideration others’ needs and desires. As parents, we want to influence our kids to be healthy and safe. As friends, we want to influence our friends to happy and fulfilled. As business owners, we want to influence our clients to be successful and prosperous. We want what is best for those in our “sphere of influence.” ”
== == == == ==
some differences I see is that a manipulator is dishonest and self-centered – only concerned with achieving what they want – merely using the needs and desires of others as a means to compel them toward that end. Whereas a motivator…someone influential, considers the needs and desires of others and works to help them define, focus and achieve what they really want.
Along those lines I found an article in Christianity Today on motivation versus manipulation:
“It has been said the difference between motivation and manipulation is the quenching of thirst. If so, the key for leaders is to look for thirsty people and identify their thirst. Effective motivators ask themselves, What kind of water do I have to satisfy that kind of thirst?”
I tend to think a motivator is an honest person with a broad altruistic streak running down their back – maybe that’s how they recognize a desire…a thirst or an interest that is already present within someone – something they want to achieve – and the motivator wants to honestly help them get there.
A manipulator camouflages their goals under the guise of appearing as things that you want...
Why did I join the way corps?
I wanted to grow spiritually, become a stronger believer, and find out what my special calling was…
and how was that achieved?
I’ll tell you how! By re-hashing PFAL, hitching to LEAD / rock climbing, the work program, stringing chairs, getting corps sponsorship together, corps night teachings of "the word" (ahem...and I quote "doctor wierwille said this...doctor wierwille said that.." ), bless patrol, going light-bearers, research papers focused on regurgitating PFAL…
spiritual growth? naw, life is slowly choked out by the stifling stagnation of spiritual darkness (if what you think is "light" or illumination in your mind - and it's actually darkness - how great is that darkness! Because you think that is light !!! )
becoming a stronger believer - translation = being closed-minded and wierwille-centric; knowing PFAL like the back of my hand - which has the crib notes for all 12 sessions.
find out what my special calling was - - heavy revelation here - ta-dah ! I can aspire to be a top notch flunky for The Way International.
But when you look past the veneer of Christianity, past the mindless repetition of busywork (those cheap ba$tards) , and see that you've hung all your aspirations on wierwille and company blowing smoke up you’re a$$ - then you realize you’ve been had by manipulators – welcome to the world of cult indoctrination TWI-style...those supermassive a$$holes !
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T-Bone
Reflecting on where my head was at around the time that I left - I was a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions - and I’m sure some of that dread of the unknown while I was on the verge of leaving TWI was from those manipulative lies that were sown into my thought processes; was I about to commit spiritual suicide?
What is truly surprising though - it seemed to be my most darkest hour - yet it was about to be an eye-opening dawn of true freedom...it takes some time but your eyes will adjust to the light (meaning your intellect and emotions will eventually catch up with reality - so relatively speaking life life gets a little less complicated and difficult ).
funny how wierwille’s foreboding words of oblivion - that any “blessed” or “abundant” qualities in my life would disappear as I with full knowledge supposedly turned my back on god - and dove head first into some black hole of unbelief - what a surprise to find out in choosing to leave TWI - that one brave “little “ decision enabled me to escape TWI’s supermassive black hole!
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Rocky
MIGHT... your eyes MIGHT adjust to the light... but almost for sure not if you continue to cling to the Wierwille mystique, a la splinter group style.
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T-Bone
Which brings us back to what I said before :“If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” (Matthew 6: 23). In other words, if you think wierwille has enlightened you – then you really are in a heap of supermassive darkness. “
Ah, will the circle be unbroken, my friends - or rather - will the vicious cycle of wierwille-centric doctrine & practice continue to draw followers ever inward to darkness? Unfortunately, If one doesn’t break free from the wierwille orbit - the answer is yes.
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T-Bone
I know what you're thinking...just when I thought I was out – they keep pulling me back in it’s almost like this thread actual exerts a subtle gravitational pull…well…if you stuck it out this far you probably need a break…all this manipulative stuff can be so depressing sometimes…soooooooo – let’s lighten up…how about a musical interlude !
let’s expand our awareness of the song (in other words - let's kill some time, shall we)…here’s the tune that started it all:
Supermassive Black Hole - Muse's original music video ….definitely weird to say the least...if you pay attention, it looks like they have one of the dancers from Athletes of the Spirit in there
their live version at Wembley Stadium I like the live version - you get a mix of the crowd’s energy with the performance – adding fuel to the fire…studio albums are cool – but I’m always in awe when a band can pull off a good live performance.
Muse's alternative live version this is cool cuz it’s live but it’s just Muse – no audience distraction…a laser-focused vibe - it's clean and sharp!
cover by Mrs. Beat she’s got some set of pipes! maybe a little overproduced but I like the effects and mixing of all her voices.
cover by Female Solution I like this version because the lead singer gives it an edgy and somewhat soulful touch – she definitely has an attitude… and I think she looks like a young Cybil Shepherd…it's a short and sweet version - I wish it was longer...they had something good going on...the band sounds tight and crisp – like a fresh potato chip
2 Cellos cover with Naya Rivera ...this was the video I used in my very first post...it gets your attention doesn't it?...I love this arrangement by 2 Cellos and with Naya this one is by far the most seductive version…which is actually another level of a cult’s attraction, if you think about it - think love-bombing
…but anyway I actually like this more than the original by Muse – makes me think of Joe Cocker – even though I love The Beatles - I like his versions of The Beatles’ “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window”, “With a Little Help from My Friends”, and “Come Together” (which Joe sings in “Across the Universe” movie)…and I’m not knocking Muse either; it was actually 2 Cellos’ version that got me into checking out Muse – so I bought their Live at Rome Olympic Stadium CD – love it!
cover by Tiffany Page note funny pronunciation of “Glacier” – sounds like Glay-see-ur
…Tiffany does have a deep sexy voice. Her's is actually deeper than the guy accompanying her.
cover by Nizhny Novogorod University Choir …check out the expressive body movements…this is kind of operatic to me – very dramatic.
If you’ve got this far you should get a medal or something
…well, anyway - thanks for reading my posts - hope you enjoyed listening to the alternate versions of Supermassive Black Hole...have a good night!
Edited by T-Boneoooh baby don't you know i suffer...oooh baby can't you hear me moan...I've sat here watching videos forever...to pay the rent I'll have to get a loan...
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Taxidev
One of my fb friends posted this video, and I think it's just so relevant:
https://www.facebook.com/dailygoalcast/videos/676785466030684/
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Rocky
It IS relevant. But we mustn't judge whether others are as able as Elizabeth S to move on and take charge of their emotional destiny. Thanks for sharing the link.
Edited by RockyI dare say that most of us who have been here at Greasespot Cafe HAVE moved on and no longer allow twi to control our lives, our moods, our interactions with others. But it's a process that takes different times for each individual. One thing Elizabeth had and has is strong family ties with tremendous emotional support. That's one of the things GSC can help with to some extent.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, excellent post! I know the GSC, has helped me move on with my life. I know my time in the TWI, left me with a lot of questions; why did I put up with so much Donkey Dung, for so many years. I think that the GSC has helped my process my time with that cult. Quite honestly, I had some great times in TWI, and met some wonderful people, for which I am thankful. However, now I know that I had to deal with a lot of Bullsheet also. For example, there was a lot of pressure, to ABS, and go WOW, and Corps, even when it was not in my best interest to do so. I took the AC, and it was a huge waste of time, and money. But, I felt a lot of pressure to take it, so I did. Big mistake on my part, but it was a learning experience for me. When I was finally ready to join the Navy, Brenda H from the 14th Corps, wanted me to go WOW again, and I told her, I wasn't going to go again, once was more than enough. So instead of going WOW, or Corps, I joined the Navy. For me, it was a good decision. But, I know from reading the GSC, many people regret the years they spent in TWI; they could have used those years getting an education, or building their careers. They will never get those years back. Rocky, I think most of us stayed in TWI, because we loved God, and wanted to live a Godly life. However, VPW and his inner circle, lived ungodly lives, and destroyed those around them.
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Rocky
That's certainly a big part of it. Perhaps another major reason was the sense of belonging we had as a part of what the cult labeled the "household of God."
For many years before and during my time in TWI, I couldn't figure out why people stayed in denominational Christian churches that had glaring major flaws. They often overlooked those flaws because of their "tribe." They had people they felt comfortable with, they felt they belonged.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, bingo!! I think perhaps that is why I stayed in TWI, for so many years. I felt a sense of belonging I had never experienced before.
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T-Bone
Taxidev:
Elizabeth’s story is very moving – thanks for sharing that link…I was especially struck by her attitude after the ordeal – inspired by her mom’s advice to NOT let the kidnappers and all she went through for 9 months continue to have a hold on her; another amazing thing she talked about was forgiveness – and that it really was something for herself…she didn’t elaborate a whole lot on that point – but the relevancy to this thread really got me! Setting aside the contrast of her situation and former cult-followers (she was kidnapped vs folks who voluntarily join a cult – though at the time they may not have been aware of that) - - I think that forgiving oneself (whatever that may mean to you) is a large part of breaking the hold a cult may have had on the person; for me forgiveness meant not beating myself up for all the dumb decisions I'd made and all the dumb things I accepted without exercising any critical thinking skills.
== == ==
Grace:
I love it when you share details of your journey – exercising your critical thinking skills to not buy into everything while you were involved in TWI – but instead taking charge of your destiny – joining the Navy; I’m with you on your great point – to be thankful for the good people that I’d met in TWI; those sweet relationships were one of the toughest things we had to go against when we started thinking about leaving - see my comments to Rocky below.
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Rocky:
You’ve got some tremendous points on social ties and emotional support; Skyrider has started a number of great threads on the social ties – both the good and bad aspects of social ties; for me, one of the factors that weighed heavily in whether or not to leave TWI was the fear of losing contact with all of our friends…and in thinking about what I said to Grace, maybe there was a little bit of the Stockholm Syndrome in the way I felt torn about TWI.
In ’86 my wife and I were pretty much the only ones who left our corps – it wasn’t until some years later that I was aware of a few others leaving; it’s not like we didn’t make an effort to reach out to our corps brethren and sistren
- we were writing letters and even made some phone calls – but alas – we were on our own; the emotional support would have been nice – if folks weren’t so stuck in that mindset of thinking we were possessed, tricked by the devil, tripped out - - or all of the above - and more!...of course the emotional support from Grease Spot folks is a tremendously healing thing !
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Edited by T-Bone"go the mass has ended...thanks be to God" a fond memory of the Roman Catholic church
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