Okay, seems you want to go there, so let's talk about Paul for a sec or two.
Consider this, if you will. As for touching the righteousness which is in the law, he declared (see Phil.3:6) that he was blameless. That was before his experience on the road to Damascus. But get this... how much value did he place on that afterwards? Well, I suppose how ever much dung is worth. (Phil.3:8.)
Now... which of these modern day, look-at-me-I'm-like-Paul folks do you suppose can honestly say that they were (in their former days) blameless (by any standard or stretch of the imagination), and/or is currently willing (much less disposed) to count much (if any) of their former life as dung?
Kindly let me know what your thoughts are after you chew that over a little...
I'm guessing you are referring to the life Paul lived afterward. But aren't these R&R folks at about the point Paul was at shortly after having the crust removed from his eyes?
It's a given that I have no idea what it was like in the past with these people (I have only known a few of them for a short time), but Paul sent people to prison and had people killed. Surely that would be considered evil beyond evil. And if any of these R&R folks did anything even close to that - if God forgave Paul then He can forgive them.
You and I are certainly not the searcher of hearts, and I am not trying to pretend to know exactly what they are doing nor their intentions. I only know what I've seen and heard so far. So, you could be exactly correct in your opinion of them, but you could also be exactly incorrect. I'm sure it's easier for me than it is for you to have a wait and see attitude, but that is the position I have taken. And so far I have seen and heard nothing that suggests they are doing what several of you here have projected on them. They have never once, since May last year, asked for money. They have never once, since last May, told us what we should be doing.
I am waiting to see them grow further in their understanding, just as Paul did. And if I am incorrect, that will show itself soon enough.
What they have done for decades is worship veepee at the altar of pfal. Minus Jesus Christ. And they want anyone that will follow them back in time to what they think are the good ol’ days.
They’re not asking for money ‘cause they don’t need it. But they’ll take it if anyone gives it.
Forgiveness from God? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on their willingness to repent IMO.
You and I are certainly not the searcher of hearts, and I am not trying to pretend to know exactly what they are doing nor their intentions. I only know what I've seen and heard so far.
I know less than that - only what those here have posted. Also I looked at the Facebook group again and the website domain they registered. It seems that there are many crossover members of that group that are actively in the Way also.
I'm not the searcher of hearts but I'm not going to ignore the elevated tone they took in their posting on that Facebook group quoted here, nor their elevation of themselves in stature and position, nor their response to queries made to them through you. That is clear evident fruit that Jesus instructs me to know people by. They have no fruit worthy of any of my attention - their little pretend spiritual coup takeover of the Way failed, which was designed to draw followers away anyway not really designed to Revive and Restore. Their expectations were that the Board of Pharisees would immediately see the light and change the Way over to now being ruled by democracy different than it had been governed since inception? That's not something a reasonable person would expect. So it is just a front for a coup - leaving, making the biggest splash and impact, drawing the most followers away so their kids can have a safe haven in a new cult.
I doubt they will honestly disclose anything of the sort in their pious platitudes and Sunday teachings and sweeping of old things under carpets.
Okay, seems you want to go there, so let's talk about Paul for a sec or two.
Consider this, if you will. As for touching the righteousness which is in the law, he declared (see Phil.3:6) that he was blameless. That was before his experience on the road to Damascus. But get this... how much value did he place on that afterwards? Well, I suppose how ever much dung is worth. (Phil.3:8.)
Now... which of these modern day, look-at-me-I'm-like-Paul folks do you suppose can honestly say that they were (in their former days) blameless (by any standard or stretch of the imagination), and/or is currently willing (much less disposed) to count much (if any) of their former life as dung?
Kindly let me know what your thoughts are after you chew that over a little...
Consider the meaning of the words with which they responded to you. Were those words of remorse or were they words of defensive posturing and deflection? I think TLC nailed it here.
It may indeed take time for them to unlearn anything they've held dear from their life in twi. But are "leaders" who claim to have seen the light about the four and five decades in the cult demonstrating ANY kind of change of heart? Surely you've heard the word, "epiphany" before, haven't you?
Okay, seems you want to go there, so let's talk about Paul for a sec or two.
Consider this, if you will. As for touching the righteousness which is in the law, he declared (see Phil.3:6) that he was blameless. That was before his experience on the road to Damascus. But get this... how much value did he place on that afterwards? Well, I suppose how ever much dung is worth. (Phil.3:8.)
Now... which of these modern day, look-at-me-I'm-like-Paul folks do you suppose can honestly say that they were (in their former days) blameless (by any standard or stretch of the imagination), and/or is currently willing (much less disposed) to count much (if any) of their former life as dung?
Kindly let me know what your thoughts are after you chew that over a little...
That's definitely some heavy ammunition. But I don't think it's a fair comparison. Paul was taught by Gamaliel; these guys were taught by VPW. Seriously not a fair comparison. Gamaliel taught the Torah and raised up Pharisees. VPW taught lies and raised up minions. And the Pharisees were called hypocrites by Jesus Christ.
I have noticed that they haven't caught on yet to the wayward ways - no pun intended - of VPW, and it seems some of them still hold him in high esteem. Maybe one day they will realize the truth about him. But Paul wasn't blameless when he sent people to their deaths. And I wouldn't say these folks were blameless when they did whatever evils they did.
As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.
Did Moneyhands or Horney or Fort do or say anything that would lead you to believe they've had a genuine epiphany?
I haven't heard anything like that. But I am late to the party, and I haven't been to any of their live events. I was still attending my TWI fellowship, and only halfheartedly participated with them.
I basically have been enjoying their teachings, mostly because they go into greater depth than anything I've heard from TWI in at least 3 years. And I did browse through their facebook page, but the posts there are quite limited.
So my not hearing this doesn't mean it wasn't said. Sorry.
Oh, they had an epiphany, alright. They suddenly realized they're not getting any younger and they'd better make a dash for the door before it can hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.
Oh, they had an epiphany, alright. They suddenly realized they're not getting any younger and they'd better make a dash for the door before it can hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.
That's a pretty hateful statement, and really presumptuous. I suppose you know what's on their hearts and in their minds?
I understand you have an ax to grind, but don't cut yourself up with it. Spewing venom is never a good thing.
“As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.”
Why TY Taxidev. Don’t pray for my peace! In the words of a dear old friend of mine from the 4th Corpse who is no longer living, “I got Peace like a river! Like a river baby!” You sound like one of the 2 responders you quoted on an earlier post. LOL!
I was “peaceful about it” the instant I turned off of wierwille road onto Highway 29 and got the hell outta there on December 14, 1986! And, my peace has grown greater DAILY since then regardless of what “trials and tribulations” I may have undergone since that day. That is true partly because, DAILY I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, that I did the “rightest” thing I ever did in my life for Jesus Christ. The ones you need to pray for are the anti-Christ pimps, whose “virtues” you seem to extol. First, pray they stop LYING and genuinely REPENT before God, Jesus Christ, and the Church, AFTER they have apologized to and sought forgiveness from their VICTIMS. VICTIMS!! Victims of TWIt “clergy”! Do YOU get that? Or, are you too busy praying for my peacefulness? I’LL FORGIVE THEM WHEN THEY HONESTLY REPENT! THEY HAVE YET TO DO SO! Do you get that Taxidev??
This has never been about vindictiveness Taxidev. This has ALWAYS been about JUSTICE! God’s justice, and HE IS THE GOD OF JUSTICE! I just pray that YOU can see beyond their seared consciences and the fair words and fancy speeches they dump all over those they lie in wait to deceive, whether YOU actually believe them or not. At least to understand GOD’S JUSTICE! Maybe that will open YOUR eyes to their habitual hubris, lies, and rule of injustice? At least to have a sense of what God’s Justice means. We’ll see, Taxidev.....we’ll see.
Meanwhile, please don’t waste any more of your prayer time for me. I got peace like a river baby!!!..................peace.
That's a pretty hateful statement, and really presumptuous. I suppose you know what's on their hearts and in their minds?
I understand you have an ax to grind, but don't cut yourself up with it. Spewing venom is never a good thing.
Hahahahaha! You think I have an ax to grind? I'm puzzled why you would think this.
Here's the skinny: These guys have been doing this stuff for 40-50 years. Now, as the sun is starting to fade on us all, they have realized they need to see some kind of return on all that time and effort they've invested. That's not hate , presumption or venom. It's a simple observation. You don't need to know what's going on in someone's heart or mind to understand that reflecting on past efforts is something we all do, TWI and non-TWI alike.
I do agree with you, though...spewing venom is seldom a good thing.
Oh, they had an epiphany, alright. They suddenly realized they're not getting any younger and they'd better make a dash for the door before it can hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.
So despite the poster who took this as 'spewing venom', isn't this just a statement of fact? I mean maybe the slang and spin seems to indicate motive, but this is pretty much exactly disclosing what I believe Brian Moneyhands told someone about them planning an exodus maybe 4 years ago?
All of those top couples - and others were blackballed from top leadership positions by the Way prior to their exodus because of things in "their own file" or whatever - their past. They weren't on the path to director positions so they split off and started their own deal. I believe what many posters here are pointing out is that they come off as a little inauthentic in what they brought up.
Specifically, if you look at their "demands" in the letter they sent to the BOD, they escalated the situation. There could have been confrontation according to the verses they quoted in Matt, Tim without the ultimatums they stated in the letter, of certain personnel stepping down, of the leadership of the ministry moving to democracy. But because they made the ultimatums and sent copies to all the Way Corps, they forced the hand of the BOD into a seeming 2 choices - step down, or ex-communicate. I mean I guess the BOD could have just ignored the letter.
I'm sure there are many active Corpse in the Way now who may have similar sentiments to that above posted, and be looking for an escape themselves. Many I've known are fine with the hypocrisy and dichotomy until it impacts them in their retirement or their children's education or something close to home. Then they leave.
I personally looking back upon my decision to leave am glad I did. I'm not getting any younger, and my kids need a future too.
I haven't heard anything like that. But I am late to the party, and I haven't been to any of their live events. I was still attending my TWI fellowship, and only halfheartedly participated with them.
I basically have been enjoying their teachings, mostly because they go into greater depth than anything I've heard from TWI in at least 3 years. And I did browse through their facebook page, but the posts there are quite limited.
So my not hearing this doesn't mean it wasn't said. Sorry.
The Way is currently stuck in a loop of endlessly repeating plagiarized material. Each devolution cycle will bring it farther away from anything genuine. Almost anything is better.
Everybody needs a local support group. I know this one ex Corpse that left at the beginning of LCM reign and for last 20+ years did a fellowship with his family and a few surrounding folks. They put VP on a pedestal and kind of bypassed everything after he died.
I just think that's a bit of what Paul was describing when he was talking about "of whom faith have made shipwreck". That ex Corpse guy kind of to me seems like a shipwreck not interacting with the rest of the body of Christ in doctrine or in practice. But who am I to judge if he's happy?
That's a pretty hateful statement, and really presumptuous. I suppose you know what's on their hearts and in their minds?
I understand you have an ax to grind, but don't cut yourself up with it. Spewing venom is never a good thing.
That wasn't hateful at all. You must not get around messageboards that much! For the internet, that was nothing, and for conversation, it wouldn't have been considered "hateful", It's also not "presumptuous" at all because these people's lives are well-known at the general level- and lots of people here knew them personally, so that's not all guesswork but conclusions drawn from the evidence at hand.
We don't know what's in their minds and hearts- but we know what they did, when they did it, what they didn't do, and when they chose to refrain from speaking or acting. Based on that, you know what matters to a person. If there's some hidden reflection that didn't impact their actions, it didn't matter MUCH to them, and so I'm ok not counting it as significant.
We don't have "an ax to grind"- but we can call people on what we see them say and do. And if you think this is "spewing venom", you need to get around a bit more. Heck, we can show you some posts from some vpw defenders and apologists, archived around here. The difference is dramatic.
I know less than that - only what those here have posted. Also I looked at the Facebook group again and the website domain they registered. It seems that there are many crossover members of that group that are actively in the Way also.
I'm not the searcher of hearts but I'm not going to ignore the elevated tone they took in their posting on that Facebook group quoted here, nor their elevation of themselves in stature and position, nor their response to queries made to them through you. That is clear evident fruit that Jesus instructs me to know people by. They have no fruit worthy of any of my attention - their little pretend spiritual coup takeover of the Way failed, which was designed to draw followers away anyway not really designed to Revive and Restore. Their expectations were that the Board of Pharisees would immediately see the light and change the Way over to now being ruled by democracy different than it had been governed since inception? That's not something a reasonable person would expect. So it is just a front for a coup - leaving, making the biggest splash and impact, drawing the most followers away so their kids can have a safe haven in a new cult.
I doubt they will honestly disclose anything of the sort in their pious platitudes and Sunday teachings and sweeping of old things under carpets.
Consider the meaning of the words with which they responded to you. Were those words of remorse or were they words of defensive posturing and deflection? I think TLC nailed it here.
It may indeed take time for them to unlearn anything they've held dear from their life in twi. But are "leaders" who claim to have seen the light about the four and five decades in the cult demonstrating ANY kind of change of heart? Surely you've heard the word, "epiphany" before, haven't you?
So despite the poster who took this as 'spewing venom', isn't this just a statement of fact? I mean maybe the slang and spin seems to indicate motive, but this is pretty much exactly disclosing what I believe Brian Moneyhands told someone about them planning an exodus maybe 4 years ago?
All of those top couples - and others were blackballed from top leadership positions by the Way prior to their exodus because of things in "their own file" or whatever - their past. They weren't on the path to director positions so they split off and started their own deal. I believe what many posters here are pointing out is that they come off as a little inauthentic in what they brought up.
Specifically, if you look at their "demands" in the letter they sent to the BOD, they escalated the situation. There could have been confrontation according to the verses they quoted in Matt, Tim without the ultimatums they stated in the letter, of certain personnel stepping down, of the leadership of the ministry moving to democracy. But because they made the ultimatums and sent copies to all the Way Corps, they forced the hand of the BOD into a seeming 2 choices - step down, or ex-communicate. I mean I guess the BOD could have just ignored the letter.
I'm sure there are many active Corpse in the Way now who may have similar sentiments to that above posted, and be looking for an escape themselves. Many I've known are fine with the hypocrisy and dichotomy until it impacts them in their retirement or their children's education or something close to home. Then they leave.
I personally looking back upon my decision to leave am glad I did. I'm not getting any younger, and my kids need a future too.
We keep seeing this pattern repeat, but THIS TIME the people who left are sincere and did it for godly reasons....
Times like this, evaluating a repeating pattern of "sincerity" and later broken promises, I am reminded of a song (a tango) by Celedonio Nicanor Compagnucci, "You've Cheated Me Again," ("Argentine tango, the sad song of the abandoned man.")
"You've made a thousand promises of a future without fetter.
That everything would change, that our love would be better.
You made great plans, that any other love would be absurd.
Ours would be the best ever heard, this time you'd keep your word.
Just some info for my fellow Greasespotters that might shed a bit more light as to why the R&R ”epiphany” came so abruptly after the recent changes in TWIt’s public relations fraud regarding the transfer of their “presidency”.
Marcia Faulk is the daughter of a well-known local “Southern Aristocrat” from Greenville, NC, who went by the nickname “Colonel Faulk”, or just “The Colonel”. He was a typical wealthy, old time confederate sympathizer still waiting for the South to rise again.
Donna Lombardi was in the 4th corpse, which was the first corpse to add an interim year to the program. I was in the same 4th corpse. Our interim year assignments were both to NC, mine as Western Territory Coordinator out of Charlotte westward, and she as the Limb Secretary at the ECU Way Home in Greenville, NC. The property had been purchased for TWIt by John S. Lynn, jalvis’ father when jally was there running the limp and the ECU Way Home. There was also a Women’s Way Home in Greenville, which was at one time coordinated by one Marcia Faulk. Marcia was close with another local TWIt leader in the early days of ECU, Steve Aldridge, whose father was a well-know dentist in Greenville. Both Marcia and Steve left Greenville to participate in the very first “trial” wave of WOW Ambassadors led by Donnie Fugit. Also, during the very first wave of WOWS in the fall of 1971, both Marcia and Steve served as Roving Ambassadors out of HQ to help the WOWS in their mission. They both returned to Greenville, where Marcia finished her degree and Steve got run off for being gay.
The very first job the new interim corpse leadership had was to run a special PFAL Family Camp at the Billy Graham’s Black Mountain Retreat in August, 1974. We were the class staff as well as members of the Pilot Council for the camp. The class included a number of older adults who each were “sponsored” (undershepherded) by other adult professionals from their fellowships. One of the “new students” at that camp was Rosalie Fox Rivenbark, a high school English teacher from New Bern, NC. Her sposor was Miller Harrison, a local Junior College professor whose son had “witnessed” to his HS English teacher who happened to be Rivenbark. Rivenbark became VERY close with Lombardi at that camp and remained so throughout that year. Faulk also became very close to Lombardi and Rivenbark, and ALL THREE returned to NK the next year, Lombardi to compete the 4th corpse, Faulk entering the 5th corpse, and Rivenbark entering Family Corpse II. As Col. Louis said to Rick at the end of Casablanca, that was the beginning of a “beautiful friendship” which continues to this very day! Think about the kind of relationship Rosie and Donna have shared and add a third wheel, and you’ll get the picture.
Now, after John and Pat Lynn left NC to go to the Zero Corpse in 1970, the new limp coordinators were none other than Boob and Doody MoneyHands. So, they were there in the very early days of the ECU “revival” and knew all the folks aforementioned.
After dictor’s death in 1985, and the implosion of TWIt in 1986 after Geer went public with his POOP paper, Boob was an emotional wreck. He was basically dysfunctional due to severe clinical depression, which required medication intervention. But, one thing for sure, you didn’t need a weatherman to know which way the stink was blowin’ with Boob and Doody around. They were staunch Geerites, then even more staunch henchmen for da Forehead, and eventually for Queen Rosie. They were the TWIt “fixers”. Wherever the biggest anti-TWIt shitstorms were, Boob and Doody were dispatched to burn out the chaff, and the save the day. And, during this time Marcia Faulk (now Greene) and her hubby Bill Greene were busy running the Gestapo Trunk, regions, corpses etc. all with great devotion to Marcia’s old gal pals, Donna and Rosie. Forts were there switching positions with the Greene’s during King okie’s reign of terror, all throughout the 90s. All the kids grew up on the TWIt dime, attending some of the finest colleges, and earning advanced degrees in various specialties, grooming themselves as the next generation of “Trustees”. Their kids became prominent TWIt leaders....corpse grads and members of the pwesiden’s KKKabinett, heirs apparent. There was even talk of Brian MoneyHands becoming the 4th TWIt Prez. But, as cushy and prominent as Boob and Doody’s positions were, they never made it to the Board of Terrorists. And, as Rosie and Donna garnered all real power in TWIt to themselves and their flunky board members, the MoneyHands KKKlan was rapidly losing favor, while the Greene KKKlan were the new rising stars. The final insult was when Billy boy made it to the elusive BOD, sliding baby Chandler into coordinating the corpse, Brian sent away to make it in the real world, and Boob and Doody left up TWIt’s Creek without a paddle.
So, there is quite a bit of longstanding, interpersonal dysfunction behind all these assholes. Much more than I have posted here. Don’t buy Removal and Relocation’s revisionist BS for even one NY minute. They’re all rats thrown overboard from a sinking ship.
“As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.”
Why TY Taxidev. Don’t pray for my peace! In the words of a dear old friend of mine from the 4th Corpse who is no longer living, “I got Peace like a river! Like a river baby!” You sound like one of the 2 responders you quoted on an earlier post. LOL!
I was “peaceful about it” the instant I turned off of wierwille road onto Highway 29 and got the hell outta there on December 14, 1986! And, my peace has grown greater DAILY since then regardless of what “trials and tribulations” I may have undergone since that day. That is true partly because, DAILY I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, that I did the “rightest” thing I ever did in my life for Jesus Christ. The ones you need to pray for are the anti-Christ pimps, whose “virtues” you seem to extol. First, pray they stop LYING and genuinely REPENT before God, Jesus Christ, and the Church, AFTER they have apologized to and sought forgiveness from their VICTIMS. VICTIMS!! Victims of TWIt “clergy”! Do YOU get that? Or, are you too busy praying for my peacefulness? I’LL FORGIVE THEM WHEN THEY HONESTLY REPENT! THEY HAVE YET TO DO SO! Do you get that Taxidev??
This has never been about vindictiveness Taxidev. This has ALWAYS been about JUSTICE! God’s justice, and HE IS THE GOD OF JUSTICE! I just pray that YOU can see beyond their seared consciences and the fair words and fancy speeches they dump all over those they lie in wait to deceive, whether YOU actually believe them or not. At least to understand GOD’S JUSTICE! Maybe that will open YOUR eyes to their habitual hubris, lies, and rule of injustice? At least to have a sense of what God’s Justice means. We’ll see, Taxidev.....we’ll see.
Meanwhile, please don’t waste any more of your prayer time for me. I got peace like a river baby!!!..................peace.
DWBH, bingo!! Just to piggy-back on your post; my life also has gotten much better since I left TWI. It is so much better; I don't have to play games with others. I can be myself, and allow others the same privilege. Who knew that life could be this good??!!
Love it! We have our own gravedigger (maybe ex-gravedigger?), who knows where the bodies are buried. Go for it, DWBH. I didn't know any of the stuff you posted about. You know stuff about some of the others, too, I think.
Allan, who posts here occasionally, can tell you his own tales about the Str1cklands, co-signatories to the T&T letter. Allan knows rather a lot about the Str1cklands.
That wasn't hateful at all. You must not get around messageboards that much! For the internet, that was nothing, and for conversation, it wouldn't have been considered "hateful", It's also not "presumptuous" at all because these people's lives are well-known at the general level- and lots of people here knew them personally, so that's not all guesswork but conclusions drawn from the evidence at hand.
We don't know what's in their minds and hearts- but we know what they did, when they did it, what they didn't do, and when they chose to refrain from speaking or acting. Based on that, you know what matters to a person. If there's some hidden reflection that didn't impact their actions, it didn't matter MUCH to them, and so I'm ok not counting it as significant.
We don't have "an ax to grind"- but we can call people on what we see them say and do. And if you think this is "spewing venom", you need to get around a bit more. Heck, we can show you some posts from some vpw defenders and apologists, archived around here. The difference is dramatic.
I’m not the gravedigger. I’m the witness, the little townsperson who watched the Dictah and Igor bury ‘em, dig ‘em up, and bury ‘em again! I confronted every single one of the lying, thieving, misogynistic weasels. I left with a clean conscience, and a restored mind! It only got better from there!
When I was the new sheriff in town from March through November, 1986, in the “YakTwig”, I literally had lines of women outside my trailer at HQ daily, venting their sexual abuse at the hands of the various MOGGIES who abused them. It became an almost daily routine for me to confront one of the sadsack losers in that group with the information I had just received that morning or the day before! Never once denied, never one apology!
Oh I KNOW “stuff” alright, Twinky! And it scares the shit out of them!
Well, in just two pages of posts, I have watched the bodies pile up around me, and there seems to be more waiting in the wings. It pains me to think about all this having gone on in the name of Christian love. I'm just glad I was nowhere near it. I'm sure you met some wonderful people along the way, but obviously so many evil people also. I can only say I've met a few that were off the wall, but many wonderful ones.
What an education in history this has been for me. Like reading the true accounts of slavery, and the true accounts of Columbus in the Caribbean. The only reason to learn about history is to avoid repeating the bad parts.
It seems to me that I have nothing more to contribute to this thread, but I will gladly continue to read what you all post, even if I'm not so glad about what I'm reading. I won't be commenting, but I might ask questions.
TY Taxiedev. Your honesty and humility are admired and respected by me. Hopefully your continued reading, along with interaction and input from you, will afford us all the continued reasonable communication which promotes peace and understanding, and mutual education.
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skyrider
How presumptuous of "them." "Our days are too precious to squander on the negatives." "Thank God, Paul did not spend time engaging in word battles about concerns that were decades old."
T-Bone
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group: 1. There is the Chri
Twinky
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some i
TLC
Okay, seems you want to go there, so let's talk about Paul for a sec or two.
Consider this, if you will. As for touching the righteousness which is in the law, he declared (see Phil.3:6) that he was blameless. That was before his experience on the road to Damascus. But get this... how much value did he place on that afterwards? Well, I suppose how ever much dung is worth. (Phil.3:8.)
Now... which of these modern day, look-at-me-I'm-like-Paul folks do you suppose can honestly say that they were (in their former days) blameless (by any standard or stretch of the imagination), and/or is currently willing (much less disposed) to count much (if any) of their former life as dung?
Kindly let me know what your thoughts are after you chew that over a little...
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JayDee
What they have done for decades is worship veepee at the altar of pfal. Minus Jesus Christ. And they want anyone that will follow them back in time to what they think are the good ol’ days.
They’re not asking for money ‘cause they don’t need it. But they’ll take it if anyone gives it.
Forgiveness from God? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on their willingness to repent IMO.
Just a couple thoughts.
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chockfull
I know less than that - only what those here have posted. Also I looked at the Facebook group again and the website domain they registered. It seems that there are many crossover members of that group that are actively in the Way also.
I'm not the searcher of hearts but I'm not going to ignore the elevated tone they took in their posting on that Facebook group quoted here, nor their elevation of themselves in stature and position, nor their response to queries made to them through you. That is clear evident fruit that Jesus instructs me to know people by. They have no fruit worthy of any of my attention - their little pretend spiritual coup takeover of the Way failed, which was designed to draw followers away anyway not really designed to Revive and Restore. Their expectations were that the Board of Pharisees would immediately see the light and change the Way over to now being ruled by democracy different than it had been governed since inception? That's not something a reasonable person would expect. So it is just a front for a coup - leaving, making the biggest splash and impact, drawing the most followers away so their kids can have a safe haven in a new cult.
I doubt they will honestly disclose anything of the sort in their pious platitudes and Sunday teachings and sweeping of old things under carpets.
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Rocky
Consider the meaning of the words with which they responded to you. Were those words of remorse or were they words of defensive posturing and deflection? I think TLC nailed it here.
It may indeed take time for them to unlearn anything they've held dear from their life in twi. But are "leaders" who claim to have seen the light about the four and five decades in the cult demonstrating ANY kind of change of heart? Surely you've heard the word, "epiphany" before, haven't you?
3. a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into reality or the essential meaning of something, often initiated by some simple, commonplace occurrence.
Did Moneyhands or Horney or Fort do or say anything that would lead you to believe they've had a genuine epiphany?
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Taxidev
That's definitely some heavy ammunition. But I don't think it's a fair comparison. Paul was taught by Gamaliel; these guys were taught by VPW. Seriously not a fair comparison. Gamaliel taught the Torah and raised up Pharisees. VPW taught lies and raised up minions. And the Pharisees were called hypocrites by Jesus Christ.
I have noticed that they haven't caught on yet to the wayward ways - no pun intended - of VPW, and it seems some of them still hold him in high esteem. Maybe one day they will realize the truth about him. But Paul wasn't blameless when he sent people to their deaths. And I wouldn't say these folks were blameless when they did whatever evils they did.
As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.
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Taxidev
I haven't heard anything like that. But I am late to the party, and I haven't been to any of their live events. I was still attending my TWI fellowship, and only halfheartedly participated with them.
I basically have been enjoying their teachings, mostly because they go into greater depth than anything I've heard from TWI in at least 3 years. And I did browse through their facebook page, but the posts there are quite limited.
So my not hearing this doesn't mean it wasn't said. Sorry.
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waysider
Oh, they had an epiphany, alright. They suddenly realized they're not getting any younger and they'd better make a dash for the door before it can hit 'em where the good Lord split 'em.
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Taxidev
That's a pretty hateful statement, and really presumptuous. I suppose you know what's on their hearts and in their minds?
I understand you have an ax to grind, but don't cut yourself up with it. Spewing venom is never a good thing.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Taxidev!
You posted this:
“As I indicated earlier, I have no idea what it's like to live through this level of atrocities. I just pray that you can all become peaceful about it, whether you actually forgive them or not. At least to have peace in yourselves.”
Why TY Taxidev. Don’t pray for my peace! In the words of a dear old friend of mine from the 4th Corpse who is no longer living, “I got Peace like a river! Like a river baby!” You sound like one of the 2 responders you quoted on an earlier post. LOL!
I was “peaceful about it” the instant I turned off of wierwille road onto Highway 29 and got the hell outta there on December 14, 1986! And, my peace has grown greater DAILY since then regardless of what “trials and tribulations” I may have undergone since that day. That is true partly because, DAILY I KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, that I did the “rightest” thing I ever did in my life for Jesus Christ. The ones you need to pray for are the anti-Christ pimps, whose “virtues” you seem to extol. First, pray they stop LYING and genuinely REPENT before God, Jesus Christ, and the Church, AFTER they have apologized to and sought forgiveness from their VICTIMS. VICTIMS!! Victims of TWIt “clergy”! Do YOU get that? Or, are you too busy praying for my peacefulness? I’LL FORGIVE THEM WHEN THEY HONESTLY REPENT! THEY HAVE YET TO DO SO! Do you get that Taxidev??
This has never been about vindictiveness Taxidev. This has ALWAYS been about JUSTICE! God’s justice, and HE IS THE GOD OF JUSTICE! I just pray that YOU can see beyond their seared consciences and the fair words and fancy speeches they dump all over those they lie in wait to deceive, whether YOU actually believe them or not. At least to understand GOD’S JUSTICE! Maybe that will open YOUR eyes to their habitual hubris, lies, and rule of injustice? At least to have a sense of what God’s Justice means. We’ll see, Taxidev.....we’ll see.
Meanwhile, please don’t waste any more of your prayer time for me. I got peace like a river baby!!!..................peace.
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waysider
Hahahahaha! You think I have an ax to grind? I'm puzzled why you would think this.
Here's the skinny: These guys have been doing this stuff for 40-50 years. Now, as the sun is starting to fade on us all, they have realized they need to see some kind of return on all that time and effort they've invested. That's not hate , presumption or venom. It's a simple observation. You don't need to know what's going on in someone's heart or mind to understand that reflecting on past efforts is something we all do, TWI and non-TWI alike.
I do agree with you, though...spewing venom is seldom a good thing.
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chockfull
So despite the poster who took this as 'spewing venom', isn't this just a statement of fact? I mean maybe the slang and spin seems to indicate motive, but this is pretty much exactly disclosing what I believe Brian Moneyhands told someone about them planning an exodus maybe 4 years ago?
All of those top couples - and others were blackballed from top leadership positions by the Way prior to their exodus because of things in "their own file" or whatever - their past. They weren't on the path to director positions so they split off and started their own deal. I believe what many posters here are pointing out is that they come off as a little inauthentic in what they brought up.
Specifically, if you look at their "demands" in the letter they sent to the BOD, they escalated the situation. There could have been confrontation according to the verses they quoted in Matt, Tim without the ultimatums they stated in the letter, of certain personnel stepping down, of the leadership of the ministry moving to democracy. But because they made the ultimatums and sent copies to all the Way Corps, they forced the hand of the BOD into a seeming 2 choices - step down, or ex-communicate. I mean I guess the BOD could have just ignored the letter.
I'm sure there are many active Corpse in the Way now who may have similar sentiments to that above posted, and be looking for an escape themselves. Many I've known are fine with the hypocrisy and dichotomy until it impacts them in their retirement or their children's education or something close to home. Then they leave.
I personally looking back upon my decision to leave am glad I did. I'm not getting any younger, and my kids need a future too.
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chockfull
The Way is currently stuck in a loop of endlessly repeating plagiarized material. Each devolution cycle will bring it farther away from anything genuine. Almost anything is better.
Everybody needs a local support group. I know this one ex Corpse that left at the beginning of LCM reign and for last 20+ years did a fellowship with his family and a few surrounding folks. They put VP on a pedestal and kind of bypassed everything after he died.
I just think that's a bit of what Paul was describing when he was talking about "of whom faith have made shipwreck". That ex Corpse guy kind of to me seems like a shipwreck not interacting with the rest of the body of Christ in doctrine or in practice. But who am I to judge if he's happy?
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WordWolf
That wasn't hateful at all. You must not get around messageboards that much! For the internet, that was nothing, and for conversation, it wouldn't have been considered "hateful", It's also not "presumptuous" at all because these people's lives are well-known at the general level- and lots of people here knew them personally, so that's not all guesswork but conclusions drawn from the evidence at hand.
We don't know what's in their minds and hearts- but we know what they did, when they did it, what they didn't do, and when they chose to refrain from speaking or acting. Based on that, you know what matters to a person. If there's some hidden reflection that didn't impact their actions, it didn't matter MUCH to them, and so I'm ok not counting it as significant.
We don't have "an ax to grind"- but we can call people on what we see them say and do. And if you think this is "spewing venom", you need to get around a bit more. Heck, we can show you some posts from some vpw defenders and apologists, archived around here. The difference is dramatic.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
We keep seeing this pattern repeat, but THIS TIME the people who left are sincere and did it for godly reasons....
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WordWolf
Times like this, evaluating a repeating pattern of "sincerity" and later broken promises, I am reminded of a song (a tango) by Celedonio Nicanor Compagnucci, "You've Cheated Me Again," ("Argentine tango, the sad song of the abandoned man.")
"You've made a thousand promises of a future without fetter.
That everything would change, that our love would be better.
You made great plans, that any other love would be absurd.
Ours would be the best ever heard, this time you'd keep your word.
A word sticks in my throat: 'Why? Why?'
If nothing has changed,
Why did I give you my vote?"
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DontWorryBeHappy
Just some info for my fellow Greasespotters that might shed a bit more light as to why the R&R ”epiphany” came so abruptly after the recent changes in TWIt’s public relations fraud regarding the transfer of their “presidency”.
Marcia Faulk is the daughter of a well-known local “Southern Aristocrat” from Greenville, NC, who went by the nickname “Colonel Faulk”, or just “The Colonel”. He was a typical wealthy, old time confederate sympathizer still waiting for the South to rise again.
Donna Lombardi was in the 4th corpse, which was the first corpse to add an interim year to the program. I was in the same 4th corpse. Our interim year assignments were both to NC, mine as Western Territory Coordinator out of Charlotte westward, and she as the Limb Secretary at the ECU Way Home in Greenville, NC. The property had been purchased for TWIt by John S. Lynn, jalvis’ father when jally was there running the limp and the ECU Way Home. There was also a Women’s Way Home in Greenville, which was at one time coordinated by one Marcia Faulk. Marcia was close with another local TWIt leader in the early days of ECU, Steve Aldridge, whose father was a well-know dentist in Greenville. Both Marcia and Steve left Greenville to participate in the very first “trial” wave of WOW Ambassadors led by Donnie Fugit. Also, during the very first wave of WOWS in the fall of 1971, both Marcia and Steve served as Roving Ambassadors out of HQ to help the WOWS in their mission. They both returned to Greenville, where Marcia finished her degree and Steve got run off for being gay.
The very first job the new interim corpse leadership had was to run a special PFAL Family Camp at the Billy Graham’s Black Mountain Retreat in August, 1974. We were the class staff as well as members of the Pilot Council for the camp. The class included a number of older adults who each were “sponsored” (undershepherded) by other adult professionals from their fellowships. One of the “new students” at that camp was Rosalie Fox Rivenbark, a high school English teacher from New Bern, NC. Her sposor was Miller Harrison, a local Junior College professor whose son had “witnessed” to his HS English teacher who happened to be Rivenbark. Rivenbark became VERY close with Lombardi at that camp and remained so throughout that year. Faulk also became very close to Lombardi and Rivenbark, and ALL THREE returned to NK the next year, Lombardi to compete the 4th corpse, Faulk entering the 5th corpse, and Rivenbark entering Family Corpse II. As Col. Louis said to Rick at the end of Casablanca, that was the beginning of a “beautiful friendship” which continues to this very day! Think about the kind of relationship Rosie and Donna have shared and add a third wheel, and you’ll get the picture.
Now, after John and Pat Lynn left NC to go to the Zero Corpse in 1970, the new limp coordinators were none other than Boob and Doody MoneyHands. So, they were there in the very early days of the ECU “revival” and knew all the folks aforementioned.
After dictor’s death in 1985, and the implosion of TWIt in 1986 after Geer went public with his POOP paper, Boob was an emotional wreck. He was basically dysfunctional due to severe clinical depression, which required medication intervention. But, one thing for sure, you didn’t need a weatherman to know which way the stink was blowin’ with Boob and Doody around. They were staunch Geerites, then even more staunch henchmen for da Forehead, and eventually for Queen Rosie. They were the TWIt “fixers”. Wherever the biggest anti-TWIt shitstorms were, Boob and Doody were dispatched to burn out the chaff, and the save the day. And, during this time Marcia Faulk (now Greene) and her hubby Bill Greene were busy running the Gestapo Trunk, regions, corpses etc. all with great devotion to Marcia’s old gal pals, Donna and Rosie. Forts were there switching positions with the Greene’s during King okie’s reign of terror, all throughout the 90s. All the kids grew up on the TWIt dime, attending some of the finest colleges, and earning advanced degrees in various specialties, grooming themselves as the next generation of “Trustees”. Their kids became prominent TWIt leaders....corpse grads and members of the pwesiden’s KKKabinett, heirs apparent. There was even talk of Brian MoneyHands becoming the 4th TWIt Prez. But, as cushy and prominent as Boob and Doody’s positions were, they never made it to the Board of Terrorists. And, as Rosie and Donna garnered all real power in TWIt to themselves and their flunky board members, the MoneyHands KKKlan was rapidly losing favor, while the Greene KKKlan were the new rising stars. The final insult was when Billy boy made it to the elusive BOD, sliding baby Chandler into coordinating the corpse, Brian sent away to make it in the real world, and Boob and Doody left up TWIt’s Creek without a paddle.
So, there is quite a bit of longstanding, interpersonal dysfunction behind all these assholes. Much more than I have posted here. Don’t buy Removal and Relocation’s revisionist BS for even one NY minute. They’re all rats thrown overboard from a sinking ship.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, bingo!! Just to piggy-back on your post; my life also has gotten much better since I left TWI. It is so much better; I don't have to play games with others. I can be myself, and allow others the same privilege. Who knew that life could be this good??!!
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Twinky
Love it! We have our own gravedigger (maybe ex-gravedigger?), who knows where the bodies are buried. Go for it, DWBH. I didn't know any of the stuff you posted about. You know stuff about some of the others, too, I think.
Allan, who posts here occasionally, can tell you his own tales about the Str1cklands, co-signatories to the T&T letter. Allan knows rather a lot about the Str1cklands.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW,
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DontWorryBeHappy
LOL Twinx!
I’m not the gravedigger. I’m the witness, the little townsperson who watched the Dictah and Igor bury ‘em, dig ‘em up, and bury ‘em again! I confronted every single one of the lying, thieving, misogynistic weasels. I left with a clean conscience, and a restored mind! It only got better from there!
When I was the new sheriff in town from March through November, 1986, in the “YakTwig”, I literally had lines of women outside my trailer at HQ daily, venting their sexual abuse at the hands of the various MOGGIES who abused them. It became an almost daily routine for me to confront one of the sadsack losers in that group with the information I had just received that morning or the day before! Never once denied, never one apology!
Oh I KNOW “stuff” alright, Twinky! And it scares the shit out of them!
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Taxidev
Well, in just two pages of posts, I have watched the bodies pile up around me, and there seems to be more waiting in the wings. It pains me to think about all this having gone on in the name of Christian love. I'm just glad I was nowhere near it. I'm sure you met some wonderful people along the way, but obviously so many evil people also. I can only say I've met a few that were off the wall, but many wonderful ones.
What an education in history this has been for me. Like reading the true accounts of slavery, and the true accounts of Columbus in the Caribbean. The only reason to learn about history is to avoid repeating the bad parts.
It seems to me that I have nothing more to contribute to this thread, but I will gladly continue to read what you all post, even if I'm not so glad about what I'm reading. I won't be commenting, but I might ask questions.
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DontWorryBeHappy
TY Taxiedev. Your honesty and humility are admired and respected by me. Hopefully your continued reading, along with interaction and input from you, will afford us all the continued reasonable communication which promotes peace and understanding, and mutual education.
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