I can understand why some people dislike TWI, with a passion.
I also understand that. But anger at an organization is very different than anger at an individual, especially if that individual has also broken away from that organization.
I was with the Roman Church until 12 years old, when I walked out of that church building and never went back. The hypocrisy was oozing down the aisles from the pulpit, it was disgusting. But I have met a few priests from that organization that actually believe they are in the right place, and have an obvious love for God and His people. So, while I am repulsed by that organization, I am not repulsed by those who have been sucked into it.
10 minutes ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:
many people had their marriages, and lives upended
I was impacted also, in that I could have owned several investment properties by now. But, that no debt thing, you know... But I hold no grudges against those that misguided me. It was still my choice. Maybe some didn't actually understand that God gave us free will, but I did. And I chose poorly. But to hang onto the anger I initially felt when I realized what had happened would be worse for me than what has already happened.
My point is, there is life after Way World. If people in R&R want, to move forward in their lives, they can.
A point to consider is that they left only around 2 years ago, mostly. And what I have heard, and perceived, is that many of them are still struggling to shed the crap. It's like they were blind for so long that now that they can see they don't really know where they are, because they don't recognize anything around them.
It does seem at times that they are continuing, somewhat, in the same structural M.O. as when they were in TWI, except they aren't trying to control anyone, and they don't want anyone's money, although there does seem to be an inner circle that calls the shots as to what happens in the group. But the teachings they do on Sundays are, mostly, vastly superior to what has been coming out of Ohio for the past few years.
Maybe it would help them to come here to vent, and to see what all of you have to say. While it's been educational to me - I wasn't involved in anything in Ohio other than taking the advanced class - it would probably be extremely eye opening for them, and ideally helpful for them to resolve things within themselves.
A point to consider is that they left only around 2 years ago, mostly. And what I have heard, and perceived, is that many of them are still struggling to shed the crap. It's like they were blind for so long that now that they can see they don't really know where they are, because they don't recognize anything around them.
There is a great deal of truth to that. It takes us humans a long time to unlearn.
Factors that can mitigate that time frame can include how diligently they challenge the dogma they've allowed to dominate their world view over the decades.
I read somewhere here, from Penworks I think, that for those who've been in a cult, it takes about twice the time you were in to recover properly from the damage. So if you were in for 10 years, you'd be recovering for 20.
I don't know at what point one can say that recovery is "complete"; maybe sooner for others, maybe perhaps never for a few . A lot will depend on why one is no longer with the cult, and also what counter-information is available.
For ex-Wayfers, if people have found GSC, or some other anti-Way site, then once they can accept what they read, their recovery will speed up. But first, they have to get to the point of accepting what they read. If they try to ease out of their cult-thinking by joining other like "splinter" groups, it may be a slower process. (Worse yet if they want to start their own group, as so many ex-Wayfers do.) But an ease-exit by joining a splinter may help; it helped me a little, and because I felt free to challenge (having become immersed in GSC), it became very helpful to see Way thinking for what it is. The R&R bunch can recover - if they want to. Their minds aren't seared with a hot iron, more like buried under a vast quantity of concrete.
Just last Friday I told my branch coordinator that after everything I have learned over the past year and a half, I just can't continue attending their fellowship.
I read somewhere here, from Penworks I think, that for those who've been in a cult, it takes about twice the time you were in to recover properly from the damage.
I think that depends on how deeply one is "in". I'm officially out for 5 days now and I feel great. But I was not sold out to TWI, and I wasn't in the corps. I seriously doubt my 22 years will require anywhere near 44 to cleanse. I wasn't in the corps, and have been more of a spectator for the past two years.
I think that depends on how deeply one is "in". I'm officially out for 5 days now and I feel great. But I was not sold out to TWI, and I wasn't in the corps. I seriously doubt my 22 years will require anywhere near 44 to cleanse. I wasn't in the corps, and have been more of a spectator for the past two years.
TWI, and all cults, intentionally confuse likemindedness with lockstep thinking.
There can (and should be) disagreements but these should be done with gracefulness and respect. Especially between Christians, who are all children of God, children of the same father. Siblings quarrel, but shouldn't fall out to the point of violence.
I am a (volunteer) Street Pastor. One of the requirements is that Christians from at least four different churches come together to serve the needs of their city. The idea behind this is to build Christian unity of heart. As we patrol, we talk with each other, sometimes about tenets of faith, but frequently about how we've seen God at work in our lives. Theological discussions don't have a place; we see God at work in each other - whether Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, RC, or some independent housegroup. SPs talk about God's love, his grace, and his powerful outworking.
And when we talk to vulnerable people on the street (whether they are homeless, or drunk, or drugged, or rowdy, or celebrating, or homosexuals, or just plain lost), we speak with one voice: we tell them that God loves them, cares for them, that we are the church and we've come to help them, talk with them, and see that they are safe. We preach by actions. It's got the attention of the whole country.
Very cool the Street Pastor stuff. God energizing Christians to move as one body in a local area. London movement there. It may spread worldwide or there may be something else that God is moving locally everywhere.
We need more of this type of ministry, and less of the Way International or splinter Way Internataional group make a YouTube channel for Sunday teachings and a new class and beg for money type of ministry.
They don’t come here often, except for Fatboy Linder, their official spy. Thanks for sharing, and...........peace.
Always glad to contribute to Linder's bathroom reading material LOL. I'm sure it provides him great entertainment, stimulates some brain cells, and gets him laughing a bit. Plus he can escape into his alter ego real estate salesman persona if it really gets too bad.
But John, I do have to say, shouldn't you be doing some re-search on a Way mag article?
While I understand the anger, have you considered that maybe they bought VPW's BS so completely that this is how they ended up acting? Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not defending any of them. Many I have never met, and several I have, and only a few did I actually get to spend time with and get to know them.
But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.
Yes, I'm glad I was introduced to the group, and I really appreciate the blatant honesty - something that was so lacking in TWI. But along with that honesty I do perceive residual anger, and an unwillingness to forgive people that have also broken away from the cult, and maybe have even more "crap" to shed than some here have had.
Unfortunately, I won't have anymore current info. Just last Friday I told my branch coordinator that after everything I have learned over the past year and a half, I just can't continue attending their fellowship. I gave her a teaching I had put together recently on the fallacy of the tithe, and told her this is a teaching they would never want me to do because it runs at cross purposes to TWI. I gave a lot of background also, where my thinking has been for the past couple years. The R&R group, GreaseSpot and others all had a hand in my decision. And I thank all of you for helping me see things more clearly.
Hey Taxidev,
I'm sure your decision was not easy, as the immediate impact of it will to be removing a support system that you are accustomed to. My encouragement at this moment would be to do the opposite of isolate. Shed the elitist "household of God" BS anti-Christ wrong dividing of scripture and embrace the true "one body" in all of its glory that Jesus Christ himself is the head of. Seek the pulse of that one body in your local area - where there is life there is blood flow.
The best is ahead, but the path is not easy or one of least resistance.
Prayers.
The R&R folks are not dead, just as Twinky put it buried under a large mound of cemented BS.
I think that depends on how deeply one is "in". I'm officially out for 5 days now and I feel great. But I was not sold out to TWI, and I wasn't in the corps. I seriously doubt my 22 years will require anywhere near 44 to cleanse. I wasn't in the corps, and have been more of a spectator for the past two years.
Awesome. Congrats. Cleansing is just a process and part of overall Christian growth and maturity. Some want to remain stunted in their teenage years of growth. But you already have a head start. Attachment to the negatives, hurt, bad feelings, actions of others including top leadership only keep you from seeing the new growth of the flowers in the spring.
the Way International or splinter Way Internataional group make a YouTube channel for Sunday teachings and a new class and beg for money type of ministry.
This is precisely NOT how the church was in the first century. All the churches were local, with no micromanagement from Jerusalem. The guys in Israel handled Israel, and the guys in Asia handled Asia, and within those areas there were small groups enjoying God's Love and Word together. The only leadership needed is Jesus Christ. He is the head, and we are the body. And every part of the body is to help sharpen every other part of the body.
The folks I have been associating with are doing just this. We take turns teaching on topics that we are interested in and have been working for ourselves, and everyone in the group is welcome to offer their own insights into those topics as a way to fine tune those teachings. It's wonderful!
the immediate impact of it will to be removing a support system that you are accustomed to
See, for better or worse, I never perceived a support system. I kept myself at arm's length for quite some time, just going to fellowship to hear the teachings, or for me to teach. I realized the "full sharing" just didn't really exist, so it was becoming like "church", and I was gradually participating in less and less activities.
I stopped going to outreach events, then branch meetings, then I wouldn't even go to fellowship when they did the STS hookups or DVDs because they were so boring.
All the churches were local, with no micromanagement from Jerusalem.
If it weren't for that word "micromanagement," I'd be inclined to disagree. In other words, I do think there was... well, what should I call it... direction (I'll avoid using the word "control") from the council (aka, the 12) at Jerusalem. Moreover, it was different (and poignant) enough from the guidance from Paul, that it resulted in the confrontation recorded in Acts 15. And frankly, although they plainly shook hands and came to a certain agreement between them, it appears to me that by then there were already two remarkably different "paths" in place - one of which continued with the centralized authority in Jerusalem, and one which... in so many words, should not have. (I think I'll leave it at that.)
TWI may have (somewhat) modeled itself after the centralized authoritarianism of the church at Jerusalem. Which, even as it did (under the best leadership and conditions imaginable) in the first century, failed. Why? (Well, not to mention or take into account the dismal difference in leadership... lol.) Simply put, because it didn't exactly match or fit with the new and more appropriate guidance that was given (by the risen and glorified Christ) to Paul.
Which is precisely why Paul was told to get out (and pretty much stay out) of Jerusalem.
“But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.”
I contacted Boob and Doody MoneyHands the day of their Emancipation Proclamation last May. I wrote them a fairly lengthy letter. MoneyHands officiated at my wedding in July, 1973, just before we all entered the corpse. I’ve known them since 1971.
I asked in that letter, if Boob and Doody were going to look up the families of the people they drove to suicide with their fake “counseling”, and ask their forgiveness. I asked if they were going to look up all the scores of Corpse and WOW girls they told to get abortions so they could remain in the Corpse or on the WOW “field”. I asked them if they wanted to apologize to my family and me for the lies, libel, and slander they spread worldwide about us when we left in 1986. I asked if they were going to go to Toledo and confront da forehead for the 48 years of their lives devoted to anti-Christ doctrine and practice which he and dictor paul ordered them to carry out to the destruction, ruination, and even death of hundreds of innocent Christians. I asked a couple more questions. I got a response about 5 days later. It read, in its totality, “Hi Ralph.” That’s it. Nothing else in response.
You bet they understand “...the evil works they were a part of”! THEY COMMITTED THEM repeatedly for almost 50 years! I’ve contacted them directly MANY TIMES through the years since 12/86 when I left. They NEVER once asked me to “contact them directly” so they could apologize and ask my forgiveness! Never once! Even as recently as May, 2017, the last time I contacted them “directly”, you saw their snide, 2-Word reply. Yet YOU say they “seemed pretty repentant to me.” Really! Please read Matt 18, and I&II Timothy again and see if you’d like to re-phrase that. LOL!
I’m not trying to be “snarky” here Taxidev. I’m simply saying that, imho, your opinion of them is NOT based on fact. Quite the contrary, it is the result of self-serving, CYA, propaganda which they’ve been sloshing around liberally since dictor paul died in 1985, to make themselves TWIt “legends”, and to mask their cruelty and guilt. Same with the Forts and the Horney’s. I was the Corpse Director when The Horney’s were at HQ for their final in-Rez year. I KNOW their crimes against the Church. I was Fort’s Region and Trunk Coordinator. He was a condescending, insulting , unproductive, blabbermouth, prick back then, and most likely remains one today. Point being, I KNOW these creeps far better and far more deeply than you do. That’s not bragging, it’s just fact. They have fooled you just like Vic’n’TWIt did in ‘95. The only thing they’re sorry about is not having their Golden TWIt parachute to retire with. Guess they’ll be using family “savings” or begging their relatives and followers to “give as God directs their hearts”, TO THEM! Same old same old.
So, before you go singing the praises of a bunch of cruel, religious despots and liars, see if you can find out from them, some more of the REAL facts behind their sell-out to Satan and filthy lucre. And, NO! I carry no residual anger, nor do I live in the “gall of bitterness”. I am a seeker of Justice, like Jesus taught us to be. Try it. You’ll like it!.............peace.
The R&R fiasco was just a group effort to "redeploy" (another ploy, if you prefer) and present themselves in a "leadership" position to (hopefully) gain some kind of alternate financial (and maybe some emotional) support - which they just lost from the old system that they were inextricably (mentally speaking) entrenched in.
Very cool the Street Pastor stuff. God energizing Christians to move as one body in a local area. London movement there. It may spread worldwide or there may be something else that God is moving locally everywhere.
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some in Australia - in fact, in 7 countries including 3 teams in the USA (Chico, California; Bangor and Portland, Maine).
In my city, we get heaps of people rushing up to hug us and to thank us for looking out for them. Homeless people know we don't judge, but offer kind words, a hot drink, and blankets etc in cold weather. Sometimes, homeless people tell us about someone (not usually a homeless person) whom they've noticed huddled in a doorway or alley, that they are concerned about. Parents are thankful we get their very drunk kids home safely. Security staff throw drunks out but then call us to ensure the drunks are warm and safe. Our universities have gained a good reputation as being in a safe city. The homosexual community welcomes us and some of them love to talk - they often have had horrendous times in churches.
And EVERYONE knows we are volunteers - and volunteer CHRISTIANS. Our actions are a much better way of witnessing than door knocking!!!
Very cool the Street Pastor stuff. God energizing Christians to move as one body in a local area. London movement there. It may spread worldwide or there may be something else that God is moving locally everywhere.
We need more of this type of ministry, and less of the Way International or splinter Way Internataional group make a YouTube channel for Sunday teachings and a new class and beg for money type of ministry.
This is precisely NOT how the church was in the first century. All the churches were local, with no micromanagement from Jerusalem. The guys in Israel handled Israel, and the guys in Asia handled Asia, and within those areas there were small groups enjoying God's Love and Word together. The only leadership needed is Jesus Christ. He is the head, and we are the body. And every part of the body is to help sharpen every other part of the body.
The folks I have been associating with are doing just this. We take turns teaching on topics that we are interested in and have been working for ourselves, and everyone in the group is welcome to offer their own insights into those topics as a way to fine tune those teachings. It's wonderful!
Taxi, wow! If you lived in the DC area, I would attend your meetings. It sounds like a "real" church, or fellowship. Good for you, and your friends!
“But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.”
I contacted Boob and Doody MoneyHands the day of their Emancipation Proclamation last May. I wrote them a fairly lengthy letter. MoneyHands officiated at my wedding in July, 1973, just before we all entered the corpse. I’ve known them since 1971.
I asked in that letter, if Boob and Doody were going to look up the families of the people they drove to suicide with their fake “counseling”, and ask their forgiveness. I asked if they were going to look up all the scores of Corpse and WOW girls they told to get abortions so they could remain in the Corpse or on the WOW “field”. I asked them if they wanted to apologize to my family and me for the lies, libel, and slander they spread worldwide about us when we left in 1986. I asked if they were going to go to Toledo and confront da forehead for the 48 years of their lives devoted to anti-Christ doctrine and practice which he and dictor paul ordered them to carry out to the destruction, ruination, and even death of hundreds of innocent Christians. I asked a couple more questions. I got a response about 5 days later. It read, in its totality, “Hi Ralph.” That’s it. Nothing else in response.
You bet they understand “...the evil works they were a part of”! THEY COMMITTED THEM repeatedly for almost 50 years! I’ve contacted them directly MANY TIMES through the years since 12/86 when I left. They NEVER once asked me to “contact them directly” so they could apologize and ask my forgiveness! Never once! Even as recently as May, 2017, the last time I contacted them “directly”, you saw their snide, 2-Word reply. Yet YOU say they “seemed pretty repentant to me.” Really! Please read Matt 18, and I&II Timothy again and see if you’d like to re-phrase that. LOL!
I’m not trying to be “snarky” here Taxidev. I’m simply saying that, imho, your opinion of them is NOT based on fact. Quite the contrary, it is the result of self-serving, CYA, propaganda which they’ve been sloshing around liberally since dictor paul died in 1985, to make themselves TWIt “legends”, and to mask their cruelty and guilt. Same with the Forts and the Horney’s. I was the Corpse Director when The Horney’s were at HQ for their final in-Rez year. I KNOW their crimes against the Church. I was Fort’s Region and Trunk Coordinator. He was a condescending, insulting , unproductive, blabbermouth, prick back then, and most likely remains one today. Point being, I KNOW these creeps far better and far more deeply than you do. That’s not bragging, it’s just fact. They have fooled you just like Vic’n’TWIt did in ‘95. The only thing they’re sorry about is not having their Golden TWIt parachute to retire with. Guess they’ll be using family “savings” or begging their relatives and followers to “give as God directs their hearts”, TO THEM! Same old same old.
So, before you go singing the praises of a bunch of cruel, religious despots and liars, see if you can find out from them, some more of the REAL facts behind their sell-out to Satan and filthy lucre. And, NO! I carry no residual anger, nor do I live in the “gall of bitterness”. I am a seeker of Justice, like Jesus taught us to be. Try it. You’ll like it!.............peace.
Great post, Don’t Worry !!!
I love the continuity and strength you’ve always provided to anyone wanting out of that supermassive black hole (i.e. wierwille and any iterations) – I will always be grateful I got to speak to you on the phone around the time Tonto and I were working on our TWI-xit - - and we’ll always cherish getting to meet you in person at the Texas BBQ a few years ago…you are the real deal ! Helping others see all the connections to the “dark side” (wierwille’s bull$hit) is a force to be reckoned with…you’re like the Luke Skywalker of Grease Spot only you weren't tempted to kill Ben Solo and you don’t die at the end of the movie - - oh gosh darn – I’m sorry I didn’t announce a spoiler alert first for all you dang Star Wars nerds .
When it comes to offshoots, spinoffs, rip-offs, knock-offs, “runoffs” and jerk-0ffs, I think it’s rather evident that wierwille’s doctrine and practice never really goes away…his adoring fans merely dress it up in a different exoskeleton - hoping it will survive the “harsh conditions” of this strange world called reality.
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some in Australia - in fact, in 7 countries including 3 teams in the USA (Chico, California; Bangor and Portland, Maine).
In my city, we get heaps of people rushing up to hug us and to thank us for looking out for them. Homeless people know we don't judge, but offer kind words, a hot drink, and blankets etc in cold weather. Sometimes, homeless people tell us about someone (not usually a homeless person) whom they've noticed huddled in a doorway or alley, that they are concerned about. Parents are thankful we get their very drunk kids home safely. Security staff throw drunks out but then call us to ensure the drunks are warm and safe. Our universities have gained a good reputation as being in a safe city. The homosexual community welcomes us and some of them love to talk - they often have had horrendous times in churches.
And EVERYONE knows we are volunteers - and volunteer CHRISTIANS. Our actions are a much better way of witnessing than door knocking!!!
Twinky, great posts !!!
I always like when you share about what’s happening in your neck of the woods…I mean by your shore of the pond…I think you are a truly sweet and kind person…and more power to all you street pastors! …I’m glad I got to meet you too at the Texas BBQ.
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skyrider
How presumptuous of "them." "Our days are too precious to squander on the negatives." "Thank God, Paul did not spend time engaging in word battles about concerns that were decades old."
T-Bone
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group: 1. There is the Chri
Twinky
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some i
Taxidev
I also understand that. But anger at an organization is very different than anger at an individual, especially if that individual has also broken away from that organization.
I was with the Roman Church until 12 years old, when I walked out of that church building and never went back. The hypocrisy was oozing down the aisles from the pulpit, it was disgusting. But I have met a few priests from that organization that actually believe they are in the right place, and have an obvious love for God and His people. So, while I am repulsed by that organization, I am not repulsed by those who have been sucked into it.
I was impacted also, in that I could have owned several investment properties by now. But, that no debt thing, you know... But I hold no grudges against those that misguided me. It was still my choice. Maybe some didn't actually understand that God gave us free will, but I did. And I chose poorly. But to hang onto the anger I initially felt when I realized what had happened would be worse for me than what has already happened.
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Taxidev
A point to consider is that they left only around 2 years ago, mostly. And what I have heard, and perceived, is that many of them are still struggling to shed the crap. It's like they were blind for so long that now that they can see they don't really know where they are, because they don't recognize anything around them.
It does seem at times that they are continuing, somewhat, in the same structural M.O. as when they were in TWI, except they aren't trying to control anyone, and they don't want anyone's money, although there does seem to be an inner circle that calls the shots as to what happens in the group. But the teachings they do on Sundays are, mostly, vastly superior to what has been coming out of Ohio for the past few years.
Maybe it would help them to come here to vent, and to see what all of you have to say. While it's been educational to me - I wasn't involved in anything in Ohio other than taking the advanced class - it would probably be extremely eye opening for them, and ideally helpful for them to resolve things within themselves.
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Rocky
There is a great deal of truth to that. It takes us humans a long time to unlearn.
Factors that can mitigate that time frame can include how diligently they challenge the dogma they've allowed to dominate their world view over the decades.
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Twinky
I read somewhere here, from Penworks I think, that for those who've been in a cult, it takes about twice the time you were in to recover properly from the damage. So if you were in for 10 years, you'd be recovering for 20.
I don't know at what point one can say that recovery is "complete"; maybe sooner for others, maybe perhaps never for a few . A lot will depend on why one is no longer with the cult, and also what counter-information is available.
For ex-Wayfers, if people have found GSC, or some other anti-Way site, then once they can accept what they read, their recovery will speed up. But first, they have to get to the point of accepting what they read. If they try to ease out of their cult-thinking by joining other like "splinter" groups, it may be a slower process. (Worse yet if they want to start their own group, as so many ex-Wayfers do.) But an ease-exit by joining a splinter may help; it helped me a little, and because I felt free to challenge (having become immersed in GSC), it became very helpful to see Way thinking for what it is. The R&R bunch can recover - if they want to. Their minds aren't seared with a hot iron, more like buried under a vast quantity of concrete.
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Twinky
Congratulations, Taxidev!
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Rocky
Yeah, what Twinky said!
BAM!
Nailed it.
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Taxidev
Thank you both very much.
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Taxidev
I think that depends on how deeply one is "in". I'm officially out for 5 days now and I feel great. But I was not sold out to TWI, and I wasn't in the corps. I seriously doubt my 22 years will require anywhere near 44 to cleanse. I wasn't in the corps, and have been more of a spectator for the past two years.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi,
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chockfull
Very cool the Street Pastor stuff. God energizing Christians to move as one body in a local area. London movement there. It may spread worldwide or there may be something else that God is moving locally everywhere.
We need more of this type of ministry, and less of the Way International or splinter Way Internataional group make a YouTube channel for Sunday teachings and a new class and beg for money type of ministry.
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chockfull
Always glad to contribute to Linder's bathroom reading material LOL. I'm sure it provides him great entertainment, stimulates some brain cells, and gets him laughing a bit. Plus he can escape into his alter ego real estate salesman persona if it really gets too bad.
But John, I do have to say, shouldn't you be doing some re-search on a Way mag article?
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chockfull
Hey Taxidev,
I'm sure your decision was not easy, as the immediate impact of it will to be removing a support system that you are accustomed to. My encouragement at this moment would be to do the opposite of isolate. Shed the elitist "household of God" BS anti-Christ wrong dividing of scripture and embrace the true "one body" in all of its glory that Jesus Christ himself is the head of. Seek the pulse of that one body in your local area - where there is life there is blood flow.
The best is ahead, but the path is not easy or one of least resistance.
Prayers.
The R&R folks are not dead, just as Twinky put it buried under a large mound of cemented BS.
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chockfull
Awesome. Congrats. Cleansing is just a process and part of overall Christian growth and maturity. Some want to remain stunted in their teenage years of growth. But you already have a head start. Attachment to the negatives, hurt, bad feelings, actions of others including top leadership only keep you from seeing the new growth of the flowers in the spring.
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Taxidev
This is precisely NOT how the church was in the first century. All the churches were local, with no micromanagement from Jerusalem. The guys in Israel handled Israel, and the guys in Asia handled Asia, and within those areas there were small groups enjoying God's Love and Word together. The only leadership needed is Jesus Christ. He is the head, and we are the body. And every part of the body is to help sharpen every other part of the body.
The folks I have been associating with are doing just this. We take turns teaching on topics that we are interested in and have been working for ourselves, and everyone in the group is welcome to offer their own insights into those topics as a way to fine tune those teachings. It's wonderful!
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Taxidev
See, for better or worse, I never perceived a support system. I kept myself at arm's length for quite some time, just going to fellowship to hear the teachings, or for me to teach. I realized the "full sharing" just didn't really exist, so it was becoming like "church", and I was gradually participating in less and less activities.
I stopped going to outreach events, then branch meetings, then I wouldn't even go to fellowship when they did the STS hookups or DVDs because they were so boring.
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TLC
If it weren't for that word "micromanagement," I'd be inclined to disagree. In other words, I do think there was... well, what should I call it... direction (I'll avoid using the word "control") from the council (aka, the 12) at Jerusalem. Moreover, it was different (and poignant) enough from the guidance from Paul, that it resulted in the confrontation recorded in Acts 15. And frankly, although they plainly shook hands and came to a certain agreement between them, it appears to me that by then there were already two remarkably different "paths" in place - one of which continued with the centralized authority in Jerusalem, and one which... in so many words, should not have. (I think I'll leave it at that.)
TWI may have (somewhat) modeled itself after the centralized authoritarianism of the church at Jerusalem. Which, even as it did (under the best leadership and conditions imaginable) in the first century, failed. Why? (Well, not to mention or take into account the dismal difference in leadership... lol.) Simply put, because it didn't exactly match or fit with the new and more appropriate guidance that was given (by the risen and glorified Christ) to Paul.
Which is precisely why Paul was told to get out (and pretty much stay out) of Jerusalem.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi again Taxidev!
“But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.”
I contacted Boob and Doody MoneyHands the day of their Emancipation Proclamation last May. I wrote them a fairly lengthy letter. MoneyHands officiated at my wedding in July, 1973, just before we all entered the corpse. I’ve known them since 1971.
I asked in that letter, if Boob and Doody were going to look up the families of the people they drove to suicide with their fake “counseling”, and ask their forgiveness. I asked if they were going to look up all the scores of Corpse and WOW girls they told to get abortions so they could remain in the Corpse or on the WOW “field”. I asked them if they wanted to apologize to my family and me for the lies, libel, and slander they spread worldwide about us when we left in 1986. I asked if they were going to go to Toledo and confront da forehead for the 48 years of their lives devoted to anti-Christ doctrine and practice which he and dictor paul ordered them to carry out to the destruction, ruination, and even death of hundreds of innocent Christians. I asked a couple more questions. I got a response about 5 days later. It read, in its totality, “Hi Ralph.” That’s it. Nothing else in response.
You bet they understand “...the evil works they were a part of”! THEY COMMITTED THEM repeatedly for almost 50 years! I’ve contacted them directly MANY TIMES through the years since 12/86 when I left. They NEVER once asked me to “contact them directly” so they could apologize and ask my forgiveness! Never once! Even as recently as May, 2017, the last time I contacted them “directly”, you saw their snide, 2-Word reply. Yet YOU say they “seemed pretty repentant to me.” Really! Please read Matt 18, and I&II Timothy again and see if you’d like to re-phrase that. LOL!
I’m not trying to be “snarky” here Taxidev. I’m simply saying that, imho, your opinion of them is NOT based on fact. Quite the contrary, it is the result of self-serving, CYA, propaganda which they’ve been sloshing around liberally since dictor paul died in 1985, to make themselves TWIt “legends”, and to mask their cruelty and guilt. Same with the Forts and the Horney’s. I was the Corpse Director when The Horney’s were at HQ for their final in-Rez year. I KNOW their crimes against the Church. I was Fort’s Region and Trunk Coordinator. He was a condescending, insulting , unproductive, blabbermouth, prick back then, and most likely remains one today. Point being, I KNOW these creeps far better and far more deeply than you do. That’s not bragging, it’s just fact. They have fooled you just like Vic’n’TWIt did in ‘95. The only thing they’re sorry about is not having their Golden TWIt parachute to retire with. Guess they’ll be using family “savings” or begging their relatives and followers to “give as God directs their hearts”, TO THEM! Same old same old.
So, before you go singing the praises of a bunch of cruel, religious despots and liars, see if you can find out from them, some more of the REAL facts behind their sell-out to Satan and filthy lucre. And, NO! I carry no residual anger, nor do I live in the “gall of bitterness”. I am a seeker of Justice, like Jesus taught us to be. Try it. You’ll like it!.............peace.
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TLC
The R&R fiasco was just a group effort to "redeploy" (another ploy, if you prefer) and present themselves in a "leadership" position to (hopefully) gain some kind of alternate financial (and maybe some emotional) support - which they just lost from the old system that they were inextricably (mentally speaking) entrenched in.
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Twinky
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some in Australia - in fact, in 7 countries including 3 teams in the USA (Chico, California; Bangor and Portland, Maine).
In my city, we get heaps of people rushing up to hug us and to thank us for looking out for them. Homeless people know we don't judge, but offer kind words, a hot drink, and blankets etc in cold weather. Sometimes, homeless people tell us about someone (not usually a homeless person) whom they've noticed huddled in a doorway or alley, that they are concerned about. Parents are thankful we get their very drunk kids home safely. Security staff throw drunks out but then call us to ensure the drunks are warm and safe. Our universities have gained a good reputation as being in a safe city. The homosexual community welcomes us and some of them love to talk - they often have had horrendous times in churches.
And EVERYONE knows we are volunteers - and volunteer CHRISTIANS. Our actions are a much better way of witnessing than door knocking!!!
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DontWorryBeHappy
OUTSTANDING TWINKY! God bless you and all your fellow SPs! THAT’S what Jesus WOULD do!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, bingo!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, wow! If you lived in the DC area, I would attend your meetings. It sounds like a "real" church, or fellowship. Good for you, and your friends!
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T-Bone
Great post, Don’t Worry !!!
I love the continuity and strength you’ve always provided to anyone wanting out of that supermassive black hole (i.e. wierwille and any iterations) – I will always be grateful I got to speak to you on the phone around the time Tonto and I were working on our TWI-xit - - and we’ll always cherish getting to meet you in person at the Texas BBQ a few years ago…you are the real deal ! Helping others see all the connections to the “dark side” (wierwille’s bull$hit) is a force to be reckoned with…you’re like the Luke Skywalker of Grease Spot only you weren't tempted to kill Ben Solo and you don’t die at the end of the movie - - oh gosh darn – I’m sorry I didn’t announce a spoiler alert first for all you dang Star Wars nerds
.
When it comes to offshoots, spinoffs, rip-offs, knock-offs, “runoffs” and jerk-0ffs, I think it’s rather evident that wierwille’s doctrine and practice never really goes away…his adoring fans merely dress it up in a different exoskeleton - hoping it will survive the “harsh conditions” of this strange world called reality.
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T-Bone
Twinky, great posts !!!
I always like when you share about what’s happening in your neck of the woods…I mean by your shore of the pond…I think you are a truly sweet and kind person…and more power to all you street pastors! …I’m glad I got to meet you too at the Texas BBQ.
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