Good talk, lots of quotable lines. "Grow up and realise you can leave," being just one of many.
Indeed.
One thing that strikes me is that the labels are different but the template is virtually identical to the cult we escaped from. And this young lady does a great job of showing how not to be trapped for a lifetime.
Thanks for posting that Rocky - yeah I wish she went longer too.
and it is so eerie how destructive cults use similar tactics: she talked about the cover-up and code of silence over an abusive uncle with her cousins; then going on to say how through that code of silence there’s the likelihood that the abuse or whatever extremely offensive behavior that is being covered up will have a trickle-down effect - in that some good people can wind up doing bad things.
Yeah - I tend to think no matter how goody-two-shoes someone is - no one is impervious to the effect of standing knee deep in the hypocrisy of a religious cult - it’s gonna take its toll...it’s gonna wear you down.
This is the true essence of Revival and Restoration, if that group wants to get real about it. Not sitting in a house on a prairie by yourselves isolating from society standing stubbornly going on teaching truths that originated from a narcissistic plagiarist.
Grow up. You've got your own younger generation watching you.
I had not heard of the Assembly(problobably similiar to Children of God), but the similliarity to TWI is striking. I wonder if that gropu was influenced by House of Acts in San Francisco/Oakland.
ROCKY: Excellent video. Enjoyed it very much. And OH --- how it relates with "our past"! As with others, I wouldn't have minded one bit if she had continued longer. Thanks for posting.
Wow ... Rocky ... I just finished watching this and it was amazing to me the clear parallels to TWI. I even took notes, I was so struck by the uncanny similarities! The things I bolded are almost identical WAY stuff (imo):
“A fun fact that all cults share is that they reject the label ‘cult.’Even now 16 years since I left, my parents will give me a list of reasons why the Assembly was not a cult.So fine.It wasn’t a cult.It was an evangelical, fundamentalist, non-denominational, religious fringe group whose charismatic leader could do whatever it wanted, but it wasn’t a cult! . . . Because we had many mainstream religious beliefs.We wanted to return to the simple life of the early Christians.” Not sure how early … but also, ‘Do women really need equality’?So I guess, post Augustine, but pre-feminist early Christians.”
“My grandparents, George and Betty [Victor and Dotsie] were in charge.George [Victor] was a fantastic public speaker, a charismatic leader, and an abusive, narcissistic pathological liar.”
“The Assembly targeted college-aged kids, vulnerable because they’re on their own for the first time and they’re looking for a community, a place where they can connect with other people.”
“Cults don’t want to be defined as a cult, because it empowers its members to take a critical look at it.Language in cults is controlled because language is powerful.{Ho-Ho Relo; Happy Household Holidays, just to name a couple.] This happens in the “real world” too.Despite what 98% of our world’s scientists say, let’s not call it ‘climate change’.”
“Training homes [Way Homes] were the Assembly’s communal living homes where groups of people would live with an elder, his wife and kids.Basically, it was a super fun way of making sure we had no free time. [And a great way to have live-in housekeepers, cooks, baby sitters and grocery shoppers]!"
"Cults are all consuming.They don’t allow their members to invest in a life outside of the group.” [You don't need full time jobs or careers -- unless it's window washing! -- or to go to school to develop a career; spreading the word over the world IS your "career" -- you're CORPS!]
“When I left ... I started to see how small my world view really was. [Ain't that the truth! It took months of therapy to begin to even have an inkling in this regard!]… In a cult, when you leave you’re shunned. [Corps loyalty pledge or else "excommunication"; "Mark and Avoid" BS]Women, children and people of color were second-class citizens.There was emotional and psychological abuse, and there was also physical abuse [rampant sexual abuse]."
“It takes a lot of work to unlearn behaviors after you leave something like that.And it was hard.There was a lot of questioning the paradigm I’d been raised to believe.[I felt like I was on the verge of an almost undefined, emotional breakdown of sorts for the first couple of months "out" ... or FREE, as she spoke of here: "But I can tell you that even the hardest day of freedom was better than the best day in a cult.”
“Comedy for me is the best way for me to take ownership of my past.” I have a friend who also spent years in TWI who I visit now and then, and he has an uncanny ability to make insanely funny jokes about the experiences we both had in TWI ... and so in a sense, that helps me "take ownership of my past" through humor!!
This was really cool to "stumble" on today, Rocky, as I haven't visited this site in months. Thanks so much for posting it!
My heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this situation. I have only attended the bible fellowships and taken the classes. I was never interested in the way corps, but I did do the way disciple program - that's the modified version of WOW. That 6 months on the field was not the wonderful time I was led to believe it would be.
On 3/19/2018 at 10:27 AM, chockfull said:
This is the true essence of Revival and Restoration, if that group wants to get real about it. Not sitting in a house on a prairie by yourselves isolating from society standing stubbornly going on teaching truths that originated from a narcissistic plagiarist.
I have been on the R&R facebook page, and have been listening to their Sunday night phone hookups, and am connected to them through a forum app. While their beginnings showed promise in that they enumerated the issues they had with TWI, and they seem to want to completely break free from the methodology, what you point out, chockfull, is correct - they are still regurgitating what VPW propounded. They even quote from and reference his collaterals. Granted, there is a lot of biblical accuracy in what TWI has taught because he happened to pull information from good sources. But I have also found error and contradiction.
Obviously, it is EXTREMELY difficult to unlearn the programming by a cult, especially after being involved for many years. I personally know several of the R&R members, some of them were involved from the beginning, and they were with TWI for 20 to 40 years. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to shed all that crap.
R&R has NOT and NEVER WILL “shed all that crap”. I personally know almost every one of those hypocrites you mention. They are not one whit better than wierwille, rivenbark, or da forehead. Many are just as “dirty” in their personal lives as dictor paul, and “rightly dividing” da woid is as far from what they’ve done for the last 40 years as The First Church of Satan...LOL! Especially Boob and Doodie MoneyHands, who have wrecked almost as many lives as the “presidents” of that Ohio cowpie minus-tray. Same with Fort & The Horneys.
That is why I asked you why you thought they were such “great men of gawd” several weeks ago. That just does not compute with those of us who have known these Pharisees since 1970, before most of them were even in da vey. They faithfully carried out all the cult BS their “presidents” ordered. They did so with evil glee. Some of us KNOW FIRSTHAND how many hundreds of lives and scores of marriages they ruined in the almost 50 years while in the belly of the cult. Same thing with Fort who got to where he is ONLY because he married Cindy Allen, Coward Allen’s daughter. That’s it. He was a cruel dude, just like MoneyHands and Horney. They were all lapdogs for all 3 presidents of TWIt. That is the truth and the FACTS.
i am glad that your time here at GSC has provided you with genuine facts so that you can make informed decisions regarding what you choose to believe. I look forward to continued input from you as to the “biblical research, teaching and fellowship” climate and reality in TWIt these days. They don’t come here often, except for Fatboy Linder, their official spy. Thanks for sharing, and...........peace.
My heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this situation. I have only attended the bible fellowships and taken the classes. I was never interested in the way corps, but I did do the way disciple program - that's the modified version of WOW. That 6 months on the field was not the wonderful time I was led to believe it would be.
I have been on the R&R facebook page, and have been listening to their Sunday night phone hookups, and am connected to them through a forum app. While their beginnings showed promise in that they enumerated the issues they had with TWI, and they seem to want to completely break free from the methodology, what you point out, chockfull, is correct - they are still regurgitating what VPW propounded. They even quote from and reference his collaterals. Granted, there is a lot of biblical accuracy in what TWI has taught because he happened to pull information from good sources. But I have also found error and contradiction.
Obviously, it is EXTREMELY difficult to unlearn the programming by a cult, especially after being involved for many years. I personally know several of the R&R members, some of them were involved from the beginning, and they were with TWI for 20 to 40 years. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to shed all that crap.
Not necessarily a valid supposition. I personally wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt.
I am not supposing. I acted like a Berean and checked it to see if those things were so. And I have found some of the resources that VPW so obviously used as the basis of many things he presented.
I am not supposing. I acted like a Berean and checked it to see if those things were so. And I have found some of the resources that VPW so obviously used as the basis of many things he presented.
Oh, I don't doubt that you found some of his sources and found that they may have matched up. That alone doesn't mean he or his sources necessarily properly divined the actual will of God. I do believe, however, that God is far bigger than the box Wierwille (and we) put him in.
I am not supposing. I acted like a Berean and checked it to see if those things were so. And I have found some of the resources that VPW so obviously used as the basis of many things he presented.
I don’t mean to rain on your parade - but I have often wondered exactly what it was that the Bereans were looking for in Acts 17: 10-12:
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
== == ==
We assume they searched the Old Testament (the only scripture in existence at the time) and I think we may also infer that the Bereans weren’t verifying that Paul and Silas just correctly quoted OT passages - considering the fact that often the preaching in early stages of the church would usually interpret or even reinterpret OT passages as having Jesus Christ as the key to understanding them in a new light - perhaps the Bereans were actually doing some heavy-duty theological thinking to see if Paul and Silas’ “interpretation” made sense with the body of scripture...
My point is - even if one backtracks into wierwille’s sources (Bullinger, Stiles, BG Leonard, Kenyon, etc.) i think it behooves any serious student of the Bible - to try and be as unbiased as possible when analyzing all that stuff - because all that too is merely someone’s interpretation of scripture...for example, I am still a big fan of Bullinger but since I left TWI and have explored so many aspects of Christian theology - I have grown to disagree on a number of major issues with Bullinger....sometimes one has to abandon a well-worn and possibly distorted “measuring stick “ to reevaluate (and measure) things in a more objective manner...there is no rule or law saying Bullinger, or any of wierwille’s other sources were the end-all on Bible study tools...
Needless to say, developing critical thinking is an ever-evolving process... and that’s a great thing about Grease Spot...I have changed my thinking on so many things just by listening and considering what others have said here whether they were similar in beliefs and viewpoint to mine - or were a million miles apart in difference.
perhaps the Bereans were actually doing some heavy-duty theological thinking to see if Paul and Silas’ “interpretation” made sense with the body of scripture
This is how I understand it.
21 hours ago, T-Bone said:
i think it behooves any serious student of the Bible - to try and be as unbiased as possible when analyzing all that stuff
Yes, I didn't just confirm that VPW properly stated his resources, but that his resources also lined up with the Word, at least to the best of my understanding, and also even modified understanding.
21 hours ago, T-Bone said:
I have changed my thinking on so many things just by listening and considering what others have said here
While I am a relative newcomer, I am right with you on this. So far one of the most interested threads I've read is on the trinity. There were aspects that I never heard of from the Roman church, and certainly not from TWI, and it led me to seriously ponder those perspectives.
I haven't had exposure to so many different viewpoints in a great many years. This is the great thing about GSC!
I haven't had exposure to so many different viewpoints in a great many years. This is the great thing about GSC!
TWI, and all cults, intentionally confuse likemindedness with lockstep thinking.
There can (and should be) disagreements but these should be done with gracefulness and respect. Especially between Christians, who are all children of God, children of the same father. Siblings quarrel, but shouldn't fall out to the point of violence.
I am a (volunteer) Street Pastor. One of the requirements is that Christians from at least four different churches come together to serve the needs of their city. The idea behind this is to build Christian unity of heart. As we patrol, we talk with each other, sometimes about tenets of faith, but frequently about how we've seen God at work in our lives. Theological discussions don't have a place; we see God at work in each other - whether Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, RC, or some independent housegroup. SPs talk about God's love, his grace, and his powerful outworking.
And when we talk to vulnerable people on the street (whether they are homeless, or drunk, or drugged, or rowdy, or celebrating, or homosexuals, or just plain lost), we speak with one voice: we tell them that God loves them, cares for them, that we are the church and we've come to help them, talk with them, and see that they are safe. We preach by actions. It's got the attention of the whole country.
While I am a relative newcomer, I am right with you on this. So far one of the most interested threads I've read is on the trinity. There were aspects that I never heard of from the Roman church, and certainly not from TWI, and it led me to seriously ponder those perspectives.
I haven't had exposure to so many different viewpoints in a great many years. This is the great thing about GSC!
Great - a round of Grease Spot’s best coffee for everyone!
R&R has NOT and NEVER WILL “shed all that crap”. I personally know almost every one of those hypocrites you mention. They are not one whit better than wierwille, rivenbark, or da forehead. Many are just as “dirty” in their personal lives as dictor paul, and “rightly dividing” da woid is as far from what they’ve done for the last 40 years as The First Church of Satan...LOL! Especially Boob and Doodie MoneyHands, who have wrecked almost as many lives as the “presidents” of that Ohio cowpie minus-tray. Same with Fort & The Horneys.
That is why I asked you why you thought they were such “great men of gawd” several weeks ago. That just does not compute with those of us who have known these Pharisees since 1970, before most of them were even in da vey. They faithfully carried out all the cult BS their “presidents” ordered. They did so with evil glee. Some of us KNOW FIRSTHAND how many hundreds of lives and scores of marriages they ruined in the almost 50 years while in the belly of the cult. Same thing with Fort who got to where he is ONLY because he married Cindy Allen, Coward Allen’s daughter. That’s it. He was a cruel dude, just like MoneyHands and Horney. They were all lapdogs for all 3 presidents of TWIt. That is the truth and the FACTS.
i am glad that your time here at GSC has provided you with genuine facts so that you can make informed decisions regarding what you choose to believe. I look forward to continued input from you as to the “biblical research, teaching and fellowship” climate and reality in TWIt these days. They don’t come here often, except for Fatboy Linder, their official spy. Thanks for sharing, and...........peace.
DWBH, I met M. Fort back in 1979, when I was a WOW. You are so right; he was an Azzhole even back then. He trashed more people, than your local Garbage Person. He was quite proud to be the S-I-L of Howard Allen. In short, I thought he was a lightweight, and not a real MOG.
all cults, intentionally confuse likemindedness with lockstep thinking
Perfect! I was just discussing this with a friend a few weeks ago, and we've done teachings about it. The major point I found was we are ALL supposed to be participating in "iron sharpens iron", but if what we talk about is dictated, then there's no sharpening at all.
Thanks for the link, I will be looking through the site over the next few days.
They faithfully carried out all the cult BS their “presidents” ordered.
While I understand the anger, have you considered that maybe they bought VPW's BS so completely that this is how they ended up acting? Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not defending any of them. Many I have never met, and several I have, and only a few did I actually get to spend time with and get to know them.
But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.
On 4/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
i am glad that your time here at GSC has provided you with genuine facts so that you can make informed decisions regarding what you choose to believe.
Yes, I'm glad I was introduced to the group, and I really appreciate the blatant honesty - something that was so lacking in TWI. But along with that honesty I do perceive residual anger, and an unwillingness to forgive people that have also broken away from the cult, and maybe have even more "crap" to shed than some here have had.
On 4/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
I look forward to continued input from you as to the “biblical research, teaching and fellowship” climate and reality in TWIt these days.
Unfortunately, I won't have anymore current info. Just last Friday I told my branch coordinator that after everything I have learned over the past year and a half, I just can't continue attending their fellowship. I gave her a teaching I had put together recently on the fallacy of the tithe, and told her this is a teaching they would never want me to do because it runs at cross purposes to TWI. I gave a lot of background also, where my thinking has been for the past couple years. The R&R group, GreaseSpot and others all had a hand in my decision. And I thank all of you for helping me see things more clearly.
My heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this situation. I have only attended the bible fellowships and taken the classes. I was never interested in the way corps, but I did do the way disciple program - that's the modified version of WOW. That 6 months on the field was not the wonderful time I was led to believe it would be.
I have been on the R&R facebook page, and have been listening to their Sunday night phone hookups, and am connected to them through a forum app. While their beginnings showed promise in that they enumerated the issues they had with TWI, and they seem to want to completely break free from the methodology, what you point out, chockfull, is correct - they are still regurgitating what VPW propounded. They even quote from and reference his collaterals. Granted, there is a lot of biblical accuracy in what TWI has taught because he happened to pull information from good sources. But I have also found error and contradiction.
Obviously, it is EXTREMELY difficult to unlearn the programming by a cult, especially after being involved for many years. I personally know several of the R&R members, some of them were involved from the beginning, and they were with TWI for 20 to 40 years. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to shed all that crap.
Taxi, great post! Yes many of the R&R people were with TWI for decades, and do have a lot of Ministry Baggage to get rid of. However, many of the people who post at the GSC, were with TWI for years, and years, and managed to rid themselves of a lot of Ministry Garbage. I know somewhere in the threads, Sky has posted his involvement with TWI. He, and his family were involved with TWI for decades. What an intresting story! He, and his wife were really big in TWI, for years, and yet still retained enough intregrty to leave, and move forward with their lives. DWBW was also high in TWI, and finally left. His insights, and first-hand knowledge about TWI, are beyond fascinating. He too left, and has had a life beyond TWI. My point is, there is life after Way World. If people in R&R want, to move forward in their lives, they can. If they want to wollow in the negatives of TWI, they can. Me, I think life is short, and I am going to enjoy what time I have left. I left TWI behind decades ago, and have never regretted it.
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skyrider
How presumptuous of "them." "Our days are too precious to squander on the negatives." "Thank God, Paul did not spend time engaging in word battles about concerns that were decades old."
T-Bone
An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group: 1. There is the Chri
Twinky
Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some i
Twinky
Good talk, lots of quotable lines. "Grow up and realise you can leave," being just one of many.
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Rocky
Indeed.
One thing that strikes me is that the labels are different but the template is virtually identical to the cult we escaped from. And this young lady does a great job of showing how not to be trapped for a lifetime.
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JumpinJive
Good talk. Wish she went a little longer.
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T-Bone
Thanks for posting that Rocky - yeah I wish she went longer too.
and it is so eerie how destructive cults use similar tactics: she talked about the cover-up and code of silence over an abusive uncle with her cousins; then going on to say how through that code of silence there’s the likelihood that the abuse or whatever extremely offensive behavior that is being covered up will have a trickle-down effect - in that some good people can wind up doing bad things.
Yeah - I tend to think no matter how goody-two-shoes someone is - no one is impervious to the effect of standing knee deep in the hypocrisy of a religious cult - it’s gonna take its toll...it’s gonna wear you down.
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chockfull
Love it. Excellent content Rocky.
This is the true essence of Revival and Restoration, if that group wants to get real about it. Not sitting in a house on a prairie by yourselves isolating from society standing stubbornly going on teaching truths that originated from a narcissistic plagiarist.
Grow up. You've got your own younger generation watching you.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I had not heard of the Assembly(problobably similiar to Children of God), but the similliarity to TWI is striking. I wonder if that gropu was influenced by House of Acts in San Francisco/Oakland.
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spectrum49
ROCKY: Excellent video. Enjoyed it very much. And OH --- how it relates with "our past"! As with others, I wouldn't have minded one bit if she had continued longer. Thanks for posting.
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HAPe4me
This looks like the Assembly she spoke of, started by George and Betty Geftakys
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/1553-george-geftakys-assembly
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Lanikaigal
Wow ... Rocky ... I just finished watching this and it was amazing to me the clear parallels to TWI. I even took notes, I was so struck by the uncanny similarities! The things I bolded are almost identical WAY stuff (imo):
“A fun fact that all cults share is that they reject the label ‘cult.’ Even now 16 years since I left, my parents will give me a list of reasons why the Assembly was not a cult. So fine. It wasn’t a cult. It was an evangelical, fundamentalist, non-denominational, religious fringe group whose charismatic leader could do whatever it wanted, but it wasn’t a cult! . . . Because we had many mainstream religious beliefs. We wanted to return to the simple life of the early Christians.” Not sure how early … but also, ‘Do women really need equality’? So I guess, post Augustine, but pre-feminist early Christians.”
“My grandparents, George and Betty [Victor and Dotsie] were in charge. George [Victor] was a fantastic public speaker, a charismatic leader, and an abusive, narcissistic pathological liar.”
“The Assembly targeted college-aged kids, vulnerable because they’re on their own for the first time and they’re looking for a community, a place where they can connect with other people.”
“Cults don’t want to be defined as a cult, because it empowers its members to take a critical look at it. Language in cults is controlled because language is powerful. {Ho-Ho Relo; Happy Household Holidays, just to name a couple.] This happens in the “real world” too. Despite what 98% of our world’s scientists say, let’s not call it ‘climate change’.”
“Training homes [Way Homes] were the Assembly’s communal living homes where groups of people would live with an elder, his wife and kids. Basically, it was a super fun way of making sure we had no free time. [And a great way to have live-in housekeepers, cooks, baby sitters and grocery shoppers]!"
"Cults are all consuming. They don’t allow their members to invest in a life outside of the group.” [You don't need full time jobs or careers -- unless it's window washing! -- or to go to school to develop a career; spreading the word over the world IS your "career" -- you're CORPS!]
“When I left ... I started to see how small my world view really was. [Ain't that the truth! It took months of therapy to begin to even have an inkling in this regard!] … In a cult, when you leave you’re shunned. [Corps loyalty pledge or else "excommunication"; "Mark and Avoid" BS] Women, children and people of color were second-class citizens. There was emotional and psychological abuse, and there was also physical abuse [rampant sexual abuse]."
“It takes a lot of work to unlearn behaviors after you leave something like that. And it was hard. There was a lot of questioning the paradigm I’d been raised to believe. [I felt like I was on the verge of an almost undefined, emotional breakdown of sorts for the first couple of months "out" ... or FREE, as she spoke of here: "But I can tell you that even the hardest day of freedom was better than the best day in a cult.”
“Comedy for me is the best way for me to take ownership of my past.” I have a friend who also spent years in TWI who I visit now and then, and he has an uncanny ability to make insanely funny jokes about the experiences we both had in TWI ... and so in a sense, that helps me "take ownership of my past" through humor!!
Edited by LanikaigalThis was really cool to "stumble" on today, Rocky, as I haven't visited this site in months. Thanks so much for posting it!
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Taxidev
My heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this situation. I have only attended the bible fellowships and taken the classes. I was never interested in the way corps, but I did do the way disciple program - that's the modified version of WOW. That 6 months on the field was not the wonderful time I was led to believe it would be.
I have been on the R&R facebook page, and have been listening to their Sunday night phone hookups, and am connected to them through a forum app. While their beginnings showed promise in that they enumerated the issues they had with TWI, and they seem to want to completely break free from the methodology, what you point out, chockfull, is correct - they are still regurgitating what VPW propounded. They even quote from and reference his collaterals. Granted, there is a lot of biblical accuracy in what TWI has taught because he happened to pull information from good sources. But I have also found error and contradiction.
Obviously, it is EXTREMELY difficult to unlearn the programming by a cult, especially after being involved for many years. I personally know several of the R&R members, some of them were involved from the beginning, and they were with TWI for 20 to 40 years. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try to shed all that crap.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Taxidev!
R&R has NOT and NEVER WILL “shed all that crap”. I personally know almost every one of those hypocrites you mention. They are not one whit better than wierwille, rivenbark, or da forehead. Many are just as “dirty” in their personal lives as dictor paul, and “rightly dividing” da woid is as far from what they’ve done for the last 40 years as The First Church of Satan...LOL! Especially Boob and Doodie MoneyHands, who have wrecked almost as many lives as the “presidents” of that Ohio cowpie minus-tray. Same with Fort & The Horneys.
That is why I asked you why you thought they were such “great men of gawd” several weeks ago. That just does not compute with those of us who have known these Pharisees since 1970, before most of them were even in da vey. They faithfully carried out all the cult BS their “presidents” ordered. They did so with evil glee. Some of us KNOW FIRSTHAND how many hundreds of lives and scores of marriages they ruined in the almost 50 years while in the belly of the cult. Same thing with Fort who got to where he is ONLY because he married Cindy Allen, Coward Allen’s daughter. That’s it. He was a cruel dude, just like MoneyHands and Horney. They were all lapdogs for all 3 presidents of TWIt. That is the truth and the FACTS.
i am glad that your time here at GSC has provided you with genuine facts so that you can make informed decisions regarding what you choose to believe. I look forward to continued input from you as to the “biblical research, teaching and fellowship” climate and reality in TWIt these days. They don’t come here often, except for Fatboy Linder, their official spy. Thanks for sharing, and...........peace.
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chockfull
I can. You become lighter.
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Rocky
Not necessarily a valid supposition. I personally wouldn't give the benefit of the doubt.
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Taxidev
I am not supposing. I acted like a Berean and checked it to see if those things were so. And I have found some of the resources that VPW so obviously used as the basis of many things he presented.
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Rocky
Oh, I don't doubt that you found some of his sources and found that they may have matched up. That alone doesn't mean he or his sources necessarily properly divined the actual will of God. I do believe, however, that God is far bigger than the box Wierwille (and we) put him in.
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T-Bone
I don’t mean to rain on your parade - but I have often wondered exactly what it was that the Bereans were looking for in Acts 17: 10-12:
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
== == ==
We assume they searched the Old Testament (the only scripture in existence at the time) and I think we may also infer that the Bereans weren’t verifying that Paul and Silas just correctly quoted OT passages - considering the fact that often the preaching in early stages of the church would usually interpret or even reinterpret OT passages as having Jesus Christ as the key to understanding them in a new light - perhaps the Bereans were actually doing some heavy-duty theological thinking to see if Paul and Silas’ “interpretation” made sense with the body of scripture...
My point is - even if one backtracks into wierwille’s sources (Bullinger, Stiles, BG Leonard, Kenyon, etc.) i think it behooves any serious student of the Bible - to try and be as unbiased as possible when analyzing all that stuff - because all that too is merely someone’s interpretation of scripture...for example, I am still a big fan of Bullinger but since I left TWI and have explored so many aspects of Christian theology - I have grown to disagree on a number of major issues with Bullinger....sometimes one has to abandon a well-worn and possibly distorted “measuring stick “ to reevaluate (and measure) things in a more objective manner...there is no rule or law saying Bullinger, or any of wierwille’s other sources were the end-all on Bible study tools...
Needless to say, developing critical thinking is an ever-evolving process... and that’s a great thing about Grease Spot...I have changed my thinking on so many things just by listening and considering what others have said here whether they were similar in beliefs and viewpoint to mine - or were a million miles apart in difference.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Taxidev
Without a doubt!
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Taxidev
This is how I understand it.
Yes, I didn't just confirm that VPW properly stated his resources, but that his resources also lined up with the Word, at least to the best of my understanding, and also even modified understanding.
While I am a relative newcomer, I am right with you on this. So far one of the most interested threads I've read is on the trinity. There were aspects that I never heard of from the Roman church, and certainly not from TWI, and it led me to seriously ponder those perspectives.
I haven't had exposure to so many different viewpoints in a great many years. This is the great thing about GSC!
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Twinky
TWI, and all cults, intentionally confuse likemindedness with lockstep thinking.
There can (and should be) disagreements but these should be done with gracefulness and respect. Especially between Christians, who are all children of God, children of the same father. Siblings quarrel, but shouldn't fall out to the point of violence.
I am a (volunteer) Street Pastor. One of the requirements is that Christians from at least four different churches come together to serve the needs of their city. The idea behind this is to build Christian unity of heart. As we patrol, we talk with each other, sometimes about tenets of faith, but frequently about how we've seen God at work in our lives. Theological discussions don't have a place; we see God at work in each other - whether Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, RC, or some independent housegroup. SPs talk about God's love, his grace, and his powerful outworking.
And when we talk to vulnerable people on the street (whether they are homeless, or drunk, or drugged, or rowdy, or celebrating, or homosexuals, or just plain lost), we speak with one voice: we tell them that God loves them, cares for them, that we are the church and we've come to help them, talk with them, and see that they are safe. We preach by actions. It's got the attention of the whole country.
http://www.streetpastors.org/
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T-Bone
Great - a round of Grease Spot’s best coffee for everyone!
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, I met M. Fort back in 1979, when I was a WOW. You are so right; he was an Azzhole even back then. He trashed more people, than your local Garbage Person. He was quite proud to be the S-I-L of Howard Allen. In short, I thought he was a lightweight, and not a real MOG.
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Taxidev
Perfect! I was just discussing this with a friend a few weeks ago, and we've done teachings about it. The major point I found was we are ALL supposed to be participating in "iron sharpens iron", but if what we talk about is dictated, then there's no sharpening at all.
Thanks for the link, I will be looking through the site over the next few days.
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Taxidev
While I understand the anger, have you considered that maybe they bought VPW's BS so completely that this is how they ended up acting? Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not defending any of them. Many I have never met, and several I have, and only a few did I actually get to spend time with and get to know them.
But, from what I've heard from many of those folks you have named, they understand the evil works they were part of, and they have said multiple times how sorry they are, and have asked people to forgive them, and whoever still has issues they have encouraged to contact them directly. They seemed pretty repentant to me.
Yes, I'm glad I was introduced to the group, and I really appreciate the blatant honesty - something that was so lacking in TWI. But along with that honesty I do perceive residual anger, and an unwillingness to forgive people that have also broken away from the cult, and maybe have even more "crap" to shed than some here have had.
Unfortunately, I won't have anymore current info. Just last Friday I told my branch coordinator that after everything I have learned over the past year and a half, I just can't continue attending their fellowship. I gave her a teaching I had put together recently on the fallacy of the tithe, and told her this is a teaching they would never want me to do because it runs at cross purposes to TWI. I gave a lot of background also, where my thinking has been for the past couple years. The R&R group, GreaseSpot and others all had a hand in my decision. And I thank all of you for helping me see things more clearly.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, great post! Yes many of the R&R people were with TWI for decades, and do have a lot of Ministry Baggage to get rid of. However, many of the people who post at the GSC, were with TWI for years, and years, and managed to rid themselves of a lot of Ministry Garbage. I know somewhere in the threads, Sky has posted his involvement with TWI. He, and his family were involved with TWI for decades. What an intresting story! He, and his wife were really big in TWI, for years, and yet still retained enough intregrty to leave, and move forward with their lives. DWBW was also high in TWI, and finally left. His insights, and first-hand knowledge about TWI, are beyond fascinating. He too left, and has had a life beyond TWI. My point is, there is life after Way World. If people in R&R want, to move forward in their lives, they can. If they want to wollow in the negatives of TWI, they can. Me, I think life is short, and I am going to enjoy what time I have left. I left TWI behind decades ago, and have never regretted it.
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