Can I ask you- do you believe that the bible is the word of God than can be relied on and trusted once you understand it for yourself
Would you say you are a true christian believer? I just want to make sure it will be a productive discussion
1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it?
1 hour ago, Waxit said:
Truth is I can discuss core issues why people misunderstand and are not aware of how important sabbath is
Actually, if you want to help people clarify their understanding, the only thing YOU can do is make your argument as clear and simple as possible and then ask questions to figure out if what you tried to explain is clear to your readers.
1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it?
Okay, here's what I am going to do... and what I'm not intending to do.
First, I'm not going to do or be or say or write anything that I don't believe in the depths of my,heart. This isn't about whether I'm going to let you put me in a box in your mind. You're going to do what you're going to do. I can't and have no need to control any aspect of that.
Second, I'm not going to try to prove anything to you on/in this thread.
Third, I fully intend to listen to, or read, your words, Waxit, non-judgmentally. I believe I've already explained my position on the subject of the sabbath. I'm not going to try to prove you wrong. Period.
I just want to understand, preferably in words from your own heart, backed up if you need/want, by scripture. But primarily I want to understand where you're coming from.
Now, I'm not making this proclamation to anyone but Waxit at this time.
Lay it on me.
I will, to the extent I need clarification of what you say from this point on, on this subject, ASK you for clarification.
I will not criticize your perspective. You have already made it emphatically clear that you believe in the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath. I accept that as your position but want to understand how and why you believe that.
Thanks,
Rocky
THIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this.
My son,if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of theLord and find the knowledge of God.
THIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this.
My son,if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of theLord and find the knowledge of God. the joy and rejoicing of my heart)
The above bible verse from proverbs is excellent Rocky and I commened you for you enquiring
heart about the things of God in relation to 7th day sabbath keeping
Heb 11:6 says God rewards those who seek Him earnestly.
One question though, you did say that you didnt like parsing and being led into a legalistic requirement.
Ok! first of all, i will tell you upfront, it is not my intention to lead you into anything- that's not my job or my aim
I simply present the truth.
In regards to "being led into a legalistic requirement- it depends what you mean by legalistic requirement
If you say legalistic requirment as in burdens put on you by man - yes! i agree with you that's wrong, definitely
However, please keep in mind the bible with it's covenant and testament laws is a legal document between God
and His people.
The bible does not apply to christians or non christians who do want eternal life and who do not believe in the God
of the bible or His commandments
The very fact that you have a keen interest and spending time in knowing God's word tells me in some measure
that you want the blessings of God- i.e eternal life, protection of God etc- if this case the bible then becomes a legal document
to you and it is well worth your time- finding out what God requires of you and to keep your part of the new covenant so that you
can then avail of the blessing that God has promised to those who will fullfill their part in the new covenant i.e keeping the laws
and commandments of God
Think of it this way, Rocky- whether you are a house owner or renter- either way the mortgage that yu take out with a bank or the renters
agreement that you sign with the landlord both constitute a legal document.
You want the protection of a shelter and enjoy it's convenences- power sockes for electricity, taps for water supply
and in return you agree to pay the housing loan arrangement to the bank for eventual house ownership when the loan is paid off
or you agree to pay the landlord an agreed monthly rental. Can you say then in this case that after making the choice to be either a house owner
or a renter- you dont like to be led into a leglistic rule. How far will you get if you went to the bank or the landlord and say, you will take the loan but you wiill not sign the
loan /rental agreement because you dont want to be led into a legalistic rule? How far will you get- not very far- they will show you where the exit door is(lol)
but see the amazing thing with God contrary to mankind rules ( and you will have to differentiate what is manmade rules (as in the clowns at twit who decitfully handle the word of God) or is it God's laws and commandments. This is where research, examination of the word by checking into the original hebrew or greek interlinear comes in to see
where the errors are showing in whichever version you are using.
You can rest assured if you accurately determine that it is God's laws and commanments that it is referring to as in Exodud 20:8-11
then you can rest assured with this type of legal obligation, it is freedom.
Galatians 5:1 (Keeping God's laws and commandments set us free
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(Lord of the Sabbath) (Judaism- 1000's of man made rules- eg Matthew 15:2
Sabbath keeping- resting,worship of God traditions trying to enforce it on gentile
Fellowship christian converts- washing of hands in a special way etc)
When the pharisees "confronted" Jesus on sabbath day- it was never in relation to keeping the sabbath-
Because jesus Christ and His disples always kept the 7th day- the pharisees questioned Jesus on how it was being
kept i.e not according to their traditions i.e "tradition of the elders" - not washing hands- plucking corn when the discples were going through
the field which they were entitled to do, healing on the sabbath- Jesus rightly
showed them how legalistic they were (man made traditions that lead to bondage
(satan's speciality)
I can honestly tell my break through started after years of enslavement in a terrible cult called twi
and I cried out to God, "Please God show me the truth"
It was a systematic and progressive leading by God's word and when the keeping of the sabbath was shown to me
through scriptures left right and centre- it was "scales dropping off" my eyes- that was my honest spritual experience
I hope we can remain friends regardless of what you end up believing. I know insofar as spiritual things for xample laws and commandments of God
(they are spiritually discerned- which is why intelligent intellectuals and hot shot religious authorities will never grasp the importance and heart
behind sabbath keeping because they do not have the meekness and humity to admit that God alone is the revealer of truth.
God by way of His Holy Spirit wrote the book so shoudnt we accept Him as the ultimate authority
You have also got to approach the understanding of the scriptures in this case sabbath with a meek and humble heart so ideally it's
a combination pf proverbs 2: 1-5 as you quoted above plus Psalm 25 4-10
Pray to God for Him to confirm and show you the truth as you increase your biblical understanding of His word though study and meditation.
It's sweet when God answers our prayers and he will if you seek him as in proverbs (quoted by you) and psalms quoted by me)
All right- i think the simplest way to approach this issue of sabbath keeping is, I will first explain the major stumbling block that well meaning christians are confronted with
and why they arrive at the conclusion that today in the new testament era sabbath keeping is not required/insignificant/unimportant- take your pick
I think from previous posts it looked like you were of the same opinion and i don't blame you because that's how most people view the sabbath- not necessary
Secondly I will ask you a question- please answer it directly - it can be very brief- one paragraph or one line "yes! I agree with the bible verse and i dont see any
ambiguity or contrdiction etc and straight to the point so we are on the same page as we progress in this discussion
When i make something bold or underline something in the the bible verse and especially if i bold and undersline something at the same time-
i am making an emphatic point and if you grab a hold of it and file it for the time being temporarily
in area of your mind for easy recall later on- you will see why God- our most wonderful and loving Father wants us, as true christians to keep His commandments
the sabbath being one of the 10 commandments is largely ignored. You will see how the love we profess (i.e love God with all your heart , mind and soul being the number one and
loving others i.e the sign of our love for God is shown by our love for others (in this case other christians) is tied to keeping His commandments- This is not what I say, this is what God is saying
Of course if something is not clear to you or disagree- feel free to ask- hopefully we can clear it and get consensus before we move on
1 John 5:3
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(greatest commandment) (commandment keeping- includes sabbath keeping which is ignored)
Thirdly when it's your turn, after you have directly answered my question, you can then ask me a question based on a bible verse in regards to sabbath keeping
and I will answer your question based on bible verse from kjv preferably because I use it but i dont mind if you prefer to quote from another version- (just not the koran lol)
So once i have direcly ansered your questiion if you have any, i will then ask you a question - so it can go back and forth and we will see how it's progressing
I may show you that the bible verse may have nothing to do with sabbath and in context what is is referring to, it maybe
saying the opposite of what you think it's saying or I may not have the answer and may have to do further research, in which case
I will tell you
Context- wwhich maybe a number of different things- eg who it was written to, why it was written, the prevailing culture at that time and what paul was adressing etc
Context is very important and because this part is frequently missed
it can lead to erroneous interpretation-- incidentally- i dont know what you think but vpw only goes into detail in context to prove a point like how smart he is in showing
you 3 days and 3 nights but when it comes to the important sabbath keeping commandment, he just skims across the "one esteemeth one day above another"- which is really shocking and shame on the deceiving conman-. Why does he doesnt look into the context of this verse "one esteemeth one day above another" especially as he wants to prove other people wrong in relatively insignificant things like 4 thieves- 3 days & 3 nights- but when it comes to important things like the 4th commandment- he wants to gloss it over - It would have been great if a knowledgeable person at that time-( i know i was very ill informed at that time) would stand up and say to the twits- that's not what Paul is referring to when you read it in context in the "one esteemeth one day above another " verse ( I suppose he might have been confronted with the "how dare you question the man of God" stare)
Why people disregard the importance of sabbath keeping?
The most common objection to sabbath keeping has been that the law has been done away with.
Sabbath is in the old testament and the law has been fullfilled by Jesus Christ so we dont have to keep it
Today the christians in the new testament - everything is fullfilled in this commandment - i.e Love God with all your heart, mind and soul
and love your neighbour as yourself. Am i correct in saying this Rocky?
I will continue with this tomorrow- i just wanted get your thoughts on the subject of
why people disregard the importance of sabbath keeping?
One question though, you did say that you didnt like parsing and being led into a legalistic requirement.
Ok! first of all, i will tell you upfront, it is not my intention to lead you into anything- that's not my job or my aim
I simply present the truth.
I'm not challenging your intent. And foremost, this isn't about me.
There is NO need to praise me in any way for this.
I know insofar as spiritual things for [e]xample laws and commandments of God
(they are spiritually discerned- which is why intelligent intellectuals and hot shot religious authorities will never grasp the importance and heart
behind sabbath keeping because they do not have the meekness and humility to admit that God alone is the revealer of truth.
What it looks like you are saying is that there is no logic to the argument, but rather it's only something that can be grasped/understood by faith. Is that correct?
Secondly I will ask you a question- please answer it directly - it can be very brief- one paragraph or one line "yes! I agree with the bible verse and i dont see any
ambiguity or contrdiction etc and straight to the point so we are on the same page as we progress in this discussion
Is this the question you are asking me, whether I agree with the bible verses you are sharing and whether or not I see ambiguity or contradiction on the points you are making?
Please note that I pledged to not challenge you or criticize you, but only to ask for clarification when I need to better understand the case you are trying to make.
I didn't pledge to agree with you, just to do my best to understand you and the case you make.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(greatest commandment) (commandment keeping- includes sabbath keeping which is ignored)
Is this the foundation of the logic on which you rest your case? Other than asking God to reveal the importance of this as the most important commandment that most of us (including me) have been ignoring?
Why does he doesnt look into the context of this verse "one esteemeth one day above another" especially as he wants to prove other people wrong in relatively insignificant things like 4 thieves- 3 days & 3 nights- but when it comes to important things like the 4th commandment- he wants to gloss it over - It would have been great if a knowledgeable person at that time-( i know i was very ill informed at that time) would stand up and say to the twits- that's not what Paul is referring to when you read it in context in the "one esteemeth one day above another " verse ( I suppose he might have been confronted with the "how dare you question the man of God" stare)
I'm not going to defend wierwille or guess as to why he did or didn't do or say any particular thing. I'm not engaging in this for anything to either prove or disprove anything about wierwille.
he most common objection to sabbath keeping has been that the law has been done away with.
Sabbath is in the old testament and the law has been fullfilled by Jesus Christ so we dont have to keep it
Today the christians in the new testament - everything is fullfilled in this commandment - i.e Love God with all your heart, mind and soul
and love your neighbour as yourself. Am i correct in saying this Rocky?
I will continue with this tomorrow- i just wanted get your thoughts on the subject of
why people disregard the importance of sabbath keeping?
I can't say what is the most common objection, but it certainly seems that IS A common reason.
Gabe, I look forward to your clarifying responses.
I'm following this thread now. To prevent a "dogpiling" situation, I'll let Rocky ask all the obvious questions so Waxit has one person to answer, instead of having to chase questions all over the thread from different people.
In the interest of being nice, I'm posting mainly to post a request.
Waxit?
Please be careful when hitting " reply" on a post. I much prefer if you don't reply INSIDE THE BOX where their post is quoted. If you do, there's 2 problems for the rest of us.
1) We can't see a difference between what HE posted and what YOU posted. This means we can't tell who posted what, nor who to reply to. That makes discussion more difficult, and it makes it harder to follow your points (since we can't distinguish them from HIS points.)
2) When everything you post ends up in that box, none of us can use the same function to reply to you! The reply function would quote an empty post- since the software thinks everything inside a quotebox is part of the quote and none of it is added.
Please make good-faith attempts to make it clear who is posting what. There's several things you can do to make that happen.
A) Under the quotebox, post your reply. You might add numbers to the quote, and number your replies so we can see what addressed what.
B) Use the quotebox, but then cut-and-paste their reply below the box, and reply to each point. Use quotation marks so we can see it's a quote, and mark what was said by you and what was said by him.
That's what I think of first, others may think other things work better. Please, please do something to address this. Thank you.
I can't say what is the most common objection, but it certainly seems that IS A common reason.
Gabe, I look forward to your clarifying responses.
by kjv translatorsThe major stumbling block when it comes to the christian's understanding and obeying the sabbath keeping commandment:
i.e not being able to recognise and differentiate the bible terminolgy of "works of law" (man made traditions) -which must be ignored
and "the works of the law" (God's laws and commandments) - must pay attention to see shat God wants
As i see it Rocky, the main reason why christians get confused and do not understand the significance of the 7th day
sabbath as commanded by God in the bible bolis down to not being able to understand between "works of law" (traditions of man)
and God's laws and commandments. In the time of Jesus, Judaism (the religion of pharisees) among the jews (phsical descedants of Abraham was
the mainstream religion- legalistic, self seeking strict and Jews opposed the teachings of Jesus Christ (The Laws and Commandments of God)
which was based on love and truth
Love God with all your heart,mind and soul and love thy neighbour as yourself. Jesus said, "on these two great commandments, hang all the law and truth
God's laws and commandments are holy and rigteousness and are based on love which will set you free
John 8:31 & 32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word (observe and keep God's laws and commandments) , then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty (teaching and commandments of Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath
wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.(traditions of man)
Romans 7:12.
Rom 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (why would God do away His own laws which are holy and just and good)
secondly God cannot and will not deny His own laws
thirdly Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and he says He is the same yesterday, today and forever ( Hebrews 13:8)
Gods laws and commandments when obeyed become the basis for relationship with God
Our connection with Him is soooo vital because God is the life giver not the sabbath per se
The sabbath as part of God's laws and Commandments demonstrates our love for God and this in turn
activates our relationship. Many christians just think they have a relationship with God even though they
dont obey God's commandments and make believe relationship is definitely not validated by God's word.
Let's look at what does validate our relationship with God according to
John 14:21-24
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (via the presence of God - Holy Spirit dwelling in us) Many christians think it is automatic and they dont
have to obey the commandments of God- they have a fake
relationship, unfortunately- just going by God's word says
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (laws and commandments of God- refer to vs 21- includes 7th day sabbath) and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
The phaisees the ruling religious authorities of the day in the time of Jesus and continually harassed Jesus and His disciples
by questioning why they dont follow their religious laws (man made traditions). You will notice both parties - Jesus on one hand and pharisees on the other
did not oppose keeping the sabbath. In fact Jesus Christ said of Himself, He is "Lord of the Sabbath" . If you are Lord of something, you own it
How can then christians who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ not practise what their Lord and master stands for- The Sabbath
Keeping of the sabbath was so clear cut and laid out during the time of Jesus and the early christians that there was no question of obeying the
7th day sabbath. You will not find a single verse where there was ever an argument about keeping the 7th day Sabbath- from sunset to sunset
The confrontation by the pharisees came about when they questioned Jesus on how they (Jesus & His discippes) were keeping the sabbath
The pharisees wanted to include their man made traditions (their own interpretations of how the sabbath was to be kept- commonly known as
"works of law" in the bible for instance - "proper and thorough washing of hands-they had a unique way of doing it, (it's ridiculous and hilarious but that's
what these clowns are about- also they questioned Jesus on why he healed (that was considered work to the pharisees)- they didnt care about they guy
who had a withered hand for his entire life until the time Jesus healed him and also why His disciples plucked corn during the sabbath.
The pharisees considered plucking of corns as reaping (work being done on sabbath)
All these are works of law which the orthodox jews codified into their talmud and wanted to enforce it on Jesus and His followers and therby corrupt
the pure word of God coming to us bunder the inspiration of the Holy Spirit
Mark 7:9
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
In todays christianity (you reject the direct 7th day sabbath (saturday) (when you keep the 1st day- Sunday)
(God's laws & commandments) Mans traditions started by the RC religion
It is important to understand that we must not interefere with God's laws or commandment by acting contraryy to what he commands
if we do then it will lead to a trangression of law (God's laws and it becomes sin
This is happening in most of christianity by well meaning christians who think they love God but are ignorant of His commandments
which leads to sin week in and week out worldwide and this results in death to our relationship with God
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin has consequences from a loving God who is also the God of Justice ( Nothing escapes His eyes- everything will be paid for)
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death (curse); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(blessings when you believe & obey)
It is importnt to realise that we must weed out traditions of man from the lwaws and commandments of God
because man is inherently corrupt with a carnal nature and God is pure
but God having mercy on us through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ delivered us out of darkness (Col 1:13) is now transforming us into the image of Hid
dear son Jesus Christ>
We should not undermine this ongoing work by being disobedient to the holy commandments coming from God
2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. ( The jews(pharisees) were blind to this verse obviously
The kjv translators who generally have the anti law mindset d in words where they
are notorious for adding in words to reflect what they believe raher than sticking with the original greek translation
and have led a lot of people astray. See my reply to Twiny on Romans 10:4 which says "Christ is the end of the law"
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, ( i pity the kjv translators who were responsible for adding words
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues into the kjv when the face the Law giver (Jesus Christ the Righteous) that are written in this book:
Ok! how do we seperate the traditions of man from the holy commandments of God in the bible
First of alwaysl go to the greek interlinear to find out the original greek translation for that particular verse
to examine if it's actually refering to the laws and commandments of God (holy and righteous)
or is the traditions of man (filthy rags)
works of law or deeds os law will be shown by the greek words "ergon nomou" ergon meaning works/ deeds and nomou law
so we know in this case it's the traditions of man
If it is God's commandments it will shown by the greek works wthe definite article "the" so it will be "tou nomou" (the law)
The problem with the KJV translators they have gone and plastered the words "the" everywhere they see the word nomou (law)
appearing. Because their mindset is God has "done away with the law" (which is total rubbish)so anything that faintly smells of law
the have slapped the definite article "the" into the mix.
So what they have done for instance in:
Galatians 3:1-2 (used by protestants to codemn sabbath keepers)
This is how people normally people read withouth checking with the greek inerlinear 3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
They equate the works of the law as "keeping the commandments of God but that's not what is appearing in the
original greek translation. It looks from this verse Galatians 3;2 like as if it is keeping the laws of God is lending credence to their eroneous belief that keeping the law nullifies the grace of God- that's absolutely incorrect
Firstly "the works of the law" is wrong translation- it's made to like it's the keeping of the commanments of God when
in fact- it is keeping the traditions of man (utterly useless and should be ignored- touch not, taste not- that sort of garbage)
Secondly, keeping the laws of God does not bring salvation- It is God (forgiveness of God- imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ to us) and Jesus Christ (the blood of jesus Christ which is the propitation for our sins)
that bring life and salvation and it is done through our believing faith ( our faith in Jesus Christ is demonstrated by our belief in Jesus Christ
which in turn is demonstrated by our willingness to keep God laws and commandments
So let's examine Galatians 3:1-2 as it appears
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
See the definite article "the" appearing twice as in " - this is the illegal tampering and insertion by the kjv translators
So if you take out the definite article "the" from "the works of the law" (laws and commandments of God- (which is the right thing to do as it is incorrectly inserted when you check in the greek interlinear (original greek translation) then it should correctly read as "works of law' (traditions of men instead of "the works of the law)
So Galaians 3: 1-2 should read thus:
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by works of law -("ergon nomou)-(traditions of men), or by the hearing of faith?
Like this erroneous translation , it all over the bible courtesy of the misleading kjv translators and it brings a lot of confusion
and erroneous understanding and for people who dont seek God to know the truth, they willfully sin ignorantly every week.
If the apostle had intended to mean "the laws and commandments of God" then he would have used the greek translation "tou nomou"
meaning the law but he did not.
There is only one place in the bible where it is correctly translated laws and commandments of God and this is in Romans 2:14-15
eveywhere else there has been a major labelling error by kjv translators in sticking" laws and commandments of God over the absolute horse manure traditions of men- "works of law"
Non christians who do not believe In Jesus Christ or think the bible is not real will not
be able to receive the truth of God's commandments because it is spiritually discerned
as opposed to someone having just an intellectual understanding
What it looks like you are saying is that there is no logic to the argument, but rather it's only something that can be grasped/understood by faith. Is that correct?
Yes! and No! - God's word is logical but it becomes real to you when God activates it via the indwelling Holy Spirit (received during water baptism)
God wants you to understand His word- 2 Tim 2:15 but the ongoing genuine relationship with Him is what brings everything together
We are also in a position to receive the faith of Jesus Christ to help us go through very challenging situations that we might face
This is why we must really focus on having a very strong relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ- - our Lord and Saviour
How do we have a relationship with Him for starters?
John 14:21-24
21 He that hathmy commandments, andkeepeth them,he it is that loveth me: andhe that loveth meshall be loved of my Father,andI will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him,If a man love me, he will keep my words: andmy Father will love him, andwe will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (via the presence of God - Holy Spirit dwelling in us
Firstly we seek God- pray to God- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for giving us spiritual insight
Secondly we diligently study and meditate on God's word
Thirdly we keep His commandments because we love Him with all our heart
I am sorry if i was very long winded in my previous post
Is this the question you are asking me, whether I agree with the bible verses you are sharing and whether or not I see ambiguity or contradiction on the points you are making?
Please note that I pledged to not challenge you or criticize you, but only to ask for clarification when I need to better understand the case you are trying to make.
I didn't pledge to agree with you, just to do my best to understand you and the case you make.
yes- no problem- as i told you - i am prepared to accept the fact that you may not agree with me and that you will do your best to understand me
at the end of the day- it's you choice to what you do or do not believe
and yes you can go ahead and ask for clarification and i will do my best to answer them
But remember that God is the one who will open eyes if the one who is seeking the truth will take action in obeying God's word
so it maybe that you understand the logic and all and still not believe- only God will know how much a person wants His presence
and His commandments to be a part of his life
Who knows what might happen when someone seriously contemplates to understand God's holy commandments?
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(greatest commandment) (commandment keeping- includes sabbath keeping which is ignored)
Is this the foundation of the logic on which you rest your case? Other than asking God to reveal the importance of this as the most important commandment that most of us (including me) have been ignoring?
This is one of the key bible verses to meditate upon in addition to praying to God with sincerity of heart
There are others- that tie in with this
2 things to do - earnestly pray to God for understanding and confirmation and expressing thanks to Him
study diligently- ask questions and meditate (think about it deeply)
Yes! and No! - God's word is logical but it becomes real to you when God activates it via the indwelling Holy Spirit (received during water baptism)
God wants you to understand His word- 2 Tim 2:15 but the ongoing genuine relationship with Him is what brings everything together
We are also in a position to receive the faith of Jesus Christ to help us go through very challenging situations that we might face
This is why we must really focus on having a very strong relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ- - our Lord and Saviour
How do we have a relationship with Him for starters?
John 14:21-24
21 He that hathmy commandments, andkeepeth them,he it is that loveth me: andhe that loveth meshall be loved of my Father,andI will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him,If a man love me, he will keep my words: andmy Father will love him, andwe will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (via the presence of God - Holy Spirit dwelling in us
Firstly we seek God- pray to God- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for giving us spiritual insight
Secondly we diligently study and meditate on God's word
Thirdly we keep His commandments because we love Him with all our heart
I am sorry if i was very long winded in my previous post
I appreciate that you anticipated the question of how to have a relationship with God.
And I appreciate that you are trying to be concise.
Are you saying that God doesn't love us unless we keep His Commandments, most notably keeping the 7th Day Sabbath?
Well, now I'm just confused. The Bible does not apply to non-Christians?? Isn't the Torah essentially the first 5 books of the Bible?
Please just let him answer the questions.
On 5/17/2020 at 5:22 PM, WordWolf said:
I'm following this thread now. To prevent a "dogpiling" situation, I'll let Rocky ask all the obvious questions so Waxit has one person to answer, instead of having to chase questions all over the thread from different people.
Waysider, to refresh your recollection:
On 5/14/2020 at 9:59 PM, Rocky said:
Okay, here's what I am going to do... and what I'm not intending to do.
First, I'm not going to do or be or say or write anything that I don't believe in the depths of my,heart. This isn't about whether I'm going to let you put me in a box in your mind. You're going to do what you're going to do. I can't and have no need to control any aspect of that.
Second, I'm not going to try to prove anything to you on/in this thread.
Third, I fully intend to listen to, or read, your words, Waxit, non-judgmentally. I believe I've already explained my position on the subject of the sabbath. I'm not going to try to prove you wrong. Period.
I just want to understand, preferably in words from your own heart, backed up if you need/want, by scripture. But primarily I want to understand where you're coming from.
Now, I'm not making this proclamation to anyone but Waxit at this time.
Lay it on me.
I will, to the extent I need clarification of what you say from this point on, on this subject, ASK you for clarification.
I will not criticize your perspective. You have already made it emphatically clear that you believe in the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath. I accept that as your position but want to understand how and why you believe that.
Thanks,
Rocky
THIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this.
My son,if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of theLord and find the knowledge of God.
I guess, one of the things I need to understand is, did you really mean to say "who do want" when you first posted this phrase.
And it would be very helpful if you would use punctuation in your own writing, not just when you copy/paste.
Sorry that was an obvious error- thanks for clarifying Rocky - it should be "those who do not believe in eternal life"
What i meant is someone who does not believe that the bible is the word of God and having the faith in Jesus Christ
and that it is through Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God) that we have salvation and eternal life
1 John 1: 1-2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (John and the Apostles were eye witnesses)
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it?
Actually, if you want to help people clarify their understanding, the only thing YOU can do is make your argument as clear and simple as possible and then ask questions to figure out if what you tried to explain is clear to your readers.
I tried to do the above to the best of my ability and some people get the wrong idea "I am show offish"
They never take the time to read carefully to see what it is I am saying. I know this because they never ask engaging or clarifying questions-
just baseless allegations
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WordWolf
Waxit, a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether bi
Stayed Too Long
Waxit Do you have any plans to address: Romans 14: 5-6; Galatians 4: 9-10, Colossians 2:16? I didn’t quote the three versus because they have been brought to your attention numerous tim
WordWolf
None whatsoever. Waxit refuses to even consider whether the Sabbath is to be regarded or not. He assumes it is to be kept, period. The only point he'd consider is on which day it should be observed
Rocky
1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it?
Actually, if you want to help people clarify their understanding, the only thing YOU can do is make your argument as clear and simple as possible and then ask questions to figure out if what you tried to explain is clear to your readers.
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Rocky
Okay, here's what I am going to do... and what I'm not intending to do.
First, I'm not going to do or be or say or write anything that I don't believe in the depths of my,heart. This isn't about whether I'm going to let you put me in a box in your mind. You're going to do what you're going to do. I can't and have no need to control any aspect of that.
Second, I'm not going to try to prove anything to you on/in this thread.
Third, I fully intend to listen to, or read, your words, Waxit, non-judgmentally. I believe I've already explained my position on the subject of the sabbath. I'm not going to try to prove you wrong. Period.
I just want to understand, preferably in words from your own heart, backed up if you need/want, by scripture. But primarily I want to understand where you're coming from.
Now, I'm not making this proclamation to anyone but Waxit at this time.
Lay it on me.
I will, to the extent I need clarification of what you say from this point on, on this subject, ASK you for clarification.
I will not criticize your perspective. You have already made it emphatically clear that you believe in the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath. I accept that as your position but want to understand how and why you believe that.
Thanks,
Rocky
Edited by RockyTHIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this.
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
insert scripture
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Waxit
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Rocky
I'm not challenging your intent. And foremost, this isn't about me.
There is NO need to praise me in any way for this.
Please just lay out your case.
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Rocky
I don't understand what you mean by these words.
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Rocky
What it looks like you are saying is that there is no logic to the argument, but rather it's only something that can be grasped/understood by faith. Is that correct?
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Rocky
Is this the question you are asking me, whether I agree with the bible verses you are sharing and whether or not I see ambiguity or contradiction on the points you are making?
Please note that I pledged to not challenge you or criticize you, but only to ask for clarification when I need to better understand the case you are trying to make.
I didn't pledge to agree with you, just to do my best to understand you and the case you make.
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Rocky
Is this the foundation of the logic on which you rest your case? Other than asking God to reveal the importance of this as the most important commandment that most of us (including me) have been ignoring?
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Rocky
I'm not going to defend wierwille or guess as to why he did or didn't do or say any particular thing. I'm not engaging in this for anything to either prove or disprove anything about wierwille.
Edited by Rockyspelling in my reply.
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Rocky
I can't say what is the most common objection, but it certainly seems that IS A common reason.
Gabe, I look forward to your clarifying responses.
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WordWolf
I'm following this thread now. To prevent a "dogpiling" situation, I'll let Rocky ask all the obvious questions so Waxit has one person to answer, instead of having to chase questions all over the thread from different people.
In the interest of being nice, I'm posting mainly to post a request.
Waxit?
Please be careful when hitting " reply" on a post. I much prefer if you don't reply INSIDE THE BOX where their post is quoted. If you do, there's 2 problems for the rest of us.
1) We can't see a difference between what HE posted and what YOU posted. This means we can't tell who posted what, nor who to reply to. That makes discussion more difficult, and it makes it harder to follow your points (since we can't distinguish them from HIS points.)
2) When everything you post ends up in that box, none of us can use the same function to reply to you! The reply function would quote an empty post- since the software thinks everything inside a quotebox is part of the quote and none of it is added.
Please make good-faith attempts to make it clear who is posting what. There's several things you can do to make that happen.
A) Under the quotebox, post your reply. You might add numbers to the quote, and number your replies so we can see what addressed what.
B) Use the quotebox, but then cut-and-paste their reply below the box, and reply to each point. Use quotation marks so we can see it's a quote, and mark what was said by you and what was said by him.
That's what I think of first, others may think other things work better. Please, please do something to address this. Thank you.
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Stayed Too Long
Tic toc, tic toc, tic toc.........
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Waxit
by kjv translatorsThe major stumbling block when it comes to the christian's understanding and obeying the sabbath keeping commandment:
i.e not being able to recognise and differentiate the bible terminolgy of "works of law" (man made traditions) -which must be ignored
and "the works of the law" (God's laws and commandments) - must pay attention to see shat God wants
As i see it Rocky, the main reason why christians get confused and do not understand the significance of the 7th day
sabbath as commanded by God in the bible bolis down to not being able to understand between "works of law" (traditions of man)
and God's laws and commandments. In the time of Jesus, Judaism (the religion of pharisees) among the jews (phsical descedants of Abraham was
the mainstream religion- legalistic, self seeking strict and Jews opposed the teachings of Jesus Christ (The Laws and Commandments of God)
which was based on love and truth
Love God with all your heart,mind and soul and love thy neighbour as yourself. Jesus said, "on these two great commandments, hang all the law and truth
God's laws and commandments are holy and rigteousness and are based on love which will set you free
John 8:31 & 32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word (observe and keep God's laws and commandments) , then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Galatians 5:
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty (teaching and commandments of Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath
wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.(traditions of man)
Romans 7:12.
Rom
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (why would God do away His own laws which are holy and just and good)
secondly God cannot and will not deny His own laws
thirdly Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and he says He is the same yesterday, today and forever ( Hebrews 13:8)
Gods laws and commandments when obeyed become the basis for relationship with God
Our connection with Him is soooo vital because God is the life giver not the sabbath per se
The sabbath as part of God's laws and Commandments demonstrates our love for God and this in turn
activates our relationship. Many christians just think they have a relationship with God even though they
dont obey God's commandments and make believe relationship is definitely not validated by God's word.
Let's look at what does validate our relationship with God according to
John 14:21-24
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (via the presence of God - Holy Spirit dwelling in us) Many christians think it is automatic and they dont
have to obey the commandments of God- they have a fake
relationship, unfortunately- just going by God's word says
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (laws and commandments of God- refer to vs 21- includes 7th day sabbath)
and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
The phaisees the ruling religious authorities of the day in the time of Jesus and continually harassed Jesus and His disciples
by questioning why they dont follow their religious laws (man made traditions). You will notice both parties - Jesus on one hand and pharisees on the other
did not oppose keeping the sabbath. In fact Jesus Christ said of Himself, He is "Lord of the Sabbath" . If you are Lord of something, you own it
How can then christians who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ not practise what their Lord and master stands for- The Sabbath
Keeping of the sabbath was so clear cut and laid out during the time of Jesus and the early christians that there was no question of obeying the
7th day sabbath. You will not find a single verse where there was ever an argument about keeping the 7th day Sabbath- from sunset to sunset
The confrontation by the pharisees came about when they questioned Jesus on how they (Jesus & His discippes) were keeping the sabbath
The pharisees wanted to include their man made traditions (their own interpretations of how the sabbath was to be kept- commonly known as
"works of law" in the bible for instance - "proper and thorough washing of hands-they had a unique way of doing it, (it's ridiculous and hilarious but that's
what these clowns are about- also they questioned Jesus on why he healed (that was considered work to the pharisees)- they didnt care about they guy
who had a withered hand for his entire life until the time Jesus healed him and also why His disciples plucked corn during the sabbath.
The pharisees considered plucking of corns as reaping (work being done on sabbath)
All these are works of law which the orthodox jews codified into their talmud and wanted to enforce it on Jesus and His followers and therby corrupt
the pure word of God coming to us bunder the inspiration of the Holy Spirit
Mark 7:9
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
In todays christianity (you reject the direct 7th day sabbath (saturday) (when you keep the 1st day- Sunday)
(God's laws & commandments) Mans traditions started by the RC religion
It is important to understand that we must not interefere with God's laws or commandment by acting contraryy to what he commands
if we do then it will lead to a trangression of law (God's laws and it becomes sin
This is happening in most of christianity by well meaning christians who think they love God but are ignorant of His commandments
which leads to sin week in and week out worldwide and this results in death to our relationship with God
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin has consequences from a loving God who is also the God of Justice ( Nothing escapes His eyes- everything will be paid for)
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death (curse); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(blessings when you believe & obey)
It is importnt to realise that we must weed out traditions of man from the lwaws and commandments of God
because man is inherently corrupt with a carnal nature and God is pure
but God having mercy on us through the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ delivered us out of darkness (Col 1:13) is now transforming us into the image of Hid
dear son Jesus Christ>
We should not undermine this ongoing work by being disobedient to the holy commandments coming from God
2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. ( The jews(pharisees) were blind to this verse obviously
The kjv translators who generally have the anti law mindset d in words where they
are notorious for adding in words to reflect what they believe raher than sticking with the original greek translation
and have led a lot of people astray. See my reply to Twiny on Romans 10:4 which says "Christ is the end of the law"
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, ( i pity the kjv translators who were responsible for adding words
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues into the kjv when the face the Law giver (Jesus Christ the Righteous) that are written in this book:
Ok! how do we seperate the traditions of man from the holy commandments of God in the bible
First of alwaysl go to the greek interlinear to find out the original greek translation for that particular verse
to examine if it's actually refering to the laws and commandments of God (holy and righteous)
or is the traditions of man (filthy rags)
works of law or deeds os law will be shown by the greek words "ergon nomou" ergon meaning works/ deeds and nomou law
so we know in this case it's the traditions of man
If it is God's commandments it will shown by the greek works wthe definite article "the" so it will be "tou nomou" (the law)
The problem with the KJV translators they have gone and plastered the words "the" everywhere they see the word nomou (law)
appearing. Because their mindset is God has "done away with the law" (which is total rubbish)so anything that faintly smells of law
the have slapped the definite article "the" into the mix.
So what they have done for instance in:
Galatians 3:1-2 (used by protestants to codemn sabbath keepers)
This is how people normally people read withouth checking with the greek inerlinear
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
They equate the works of the law as "keeping the commandments of God but that's not what is appearing in the
original greek translation. It looks from this verse Galatians 3;2 like as if it is keeping the laws of God is lending credence to their eroneous belief that keeping the law nullifies the grace of God- that's absolutely incorrect
Firstly "the works of the law" is wrong translation- it's made to like it's the keeping of the commanments of God when
in fact- it is keeping the traditions of man (utterly useless and should be ignored- touch not, taste not- that sort of garbage)
Secondly, keeping the laws of God does not bring salvation- It is God (forgiveness of God- imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ to us) and Jesus Christ (the blood of jesus Christ which is the propitation for our sins)
that bring life and salvation and it is done through our believing faith ( our faith in Jesus Christ is demonstrated by our belief in Jesus Christ
which in turn is demonstrated by our willingness to keep God laws and commandments
So let's examine Galatians 3:1-2 as it appears
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
See the definite article "the" appearing twice as in " - this is the illegal tampering and insertion by the kjv translators
So if you take out the definite article "the" from "the works of the law" (laws and commandments of God- (which is the right thing to do as it is incorrectly inserted when you check in the greek interlinear (original greek translation) then it should correctly read as "works of law' (traditions of men instead of "the works of the law)
So Galaians 3: 1-2 should read thus:
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by works of law -("ergon nomou)-(traditions of men), or by the hearing of faith?
Like this erroneous translation , it all over the bible courtesy of the misleading kjv translators and it brings a lot of confusion
Edited by Waxitand erroneous understanding and for people who dont seek God to know the truth, they willfully sin ignorantly every week.
If the apostle had intended to mean "the laws and commandments of God" then he would have used the greek translation "tou nomou"
meaning the law but he did not.
There is only one place in the bible where it is correctly translated laws and commandments of God and this is in Romans 2:14-15
eveywhere else there has been a major labelling error by kjv translators in sticking" laws and commandments of God over the absolute horse manure traditions of men- "works of law"
Regards
Waxit
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Rocky
I will need clarifications/responses to my other questions before I will feel comfortable responding to yours. Thank you.
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Waxit
Non christians who do not believe In Jesus Christ or think the bible is not real will not
be able to receive the truth of God's commandments because it is spiritually discerned
as opposed to someone having just an intellectual understanding
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Waxit
Yes! and No! - God's word is logical but it becomes real to you when God activates it via the indwelling Holy Spirit (received during water baptism)
God wants you to understand His word- 2 Tim 2:15 but the ongoing genuine relationship with Him is what brings everything together
We are also in a position to receive the faith of Jesus Christ to help us go through very challenging situations that we might face
This is why we must really focus on having a very strong relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ- - our Lord and Saviour
How do we have a relationship with Him for starters?
John 14:21-24
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (via the presence of God - Holy Spirit dwelling in us
Firstly we seek God- pray to God- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for giving us spiritual insight
Secondly we diligently study and meditate on God's word
Thirdly we keep His commandments because we love Him with all our heart
I am sorry if i was very long winded in my previous post
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Waxit
yes- no problem- as i told you - i am prepared to accept the fact that you may not agree with me and that you will do your best to understand me
at the end of the day- it's you choice to what you do or do not believe
and yes you can go ahead and ask for clarification and i will do my best to answer them
But remember that God is the one who will open eyes if the one who is seeking the truth will take action in obeying God's word
so it maybe that you understand the logic and all and still not believe- only God will know how much a person wants His presence
and His commandments to be a part of his life
Who knows what might happen when someone seriously contemplates to understand God's holy commandments?
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Waxit
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Rocky
I appreciate that you anticipated the question of how to have a relationship with God.
And I appreciate that you are trying to be concise.
Are you saying that God doesn't love us unless we keep His Commandments, most notably keeping the 7th Day Sabbath?
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Rocky
I guess, one of the things I need to understand is, did you really mean to say "who do want" when you first posted this phrase.
And it would be very helpful if you would use punctuation in your own writing, not just when you copy/paste.
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waysider
Well, now I'm just confused. The Bible does not apply to non-Christians?? Isn't the Torah essentially the first 5 books of the Bible?
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Rocky
Please just let him answer the questions.
Waysider, to refresh your recollection:
Thank you.
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Waxit
Sorry that was an obvious error- thanks for clarifying Rocky - it should be "those who do not believe in eternal life"
What i meant is someone who does not believe that the bible is the word of God and having the faith in Jesus Christ
and that it is through Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God) that we have salvation and eternal life
1 John 1: 1-2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (John and the Apostles were eye witnesses)
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
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Waxit
I tried to do the above to the best of my ability and some people get the wrong idea "I am show offish"
They never take the time to read carefully to see what it is I am saying. I know this because they never ask engaging or clarifying questions-
just baseless allegations
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