I didn’t quote the three versus because they have been brought to your attention numerous times by several other posters.
Colossians 2:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. ( Mark made a comment of this so I will include it in here- no charge
The above verse is actually saying the opposite of what you are thinking. You have got it backwards
You are of the understanding that Paul is saying, Guys! dont let people criticise you for what type of meat or drink you are having
and in regards to whether you are or are not observing holy day, new moon and keeping of sabbath> This is not important
It's actually the other way around i.e it is important that you are not put off in practising the teachings of your christian faith.
Please consider carefully who Paul was talking to and what the colossians were faced with
i.e pagan culture and false teachers trying to impose the religious traditions of man If you read it in context and the fact that the churche at colosse came from a pagan background
Paul is telling the gentile christians not to be intimidated for observing the teachings of christianity- clean and unclean meat
sabbath keeping, holy days etc
Colossians was a letter written to the gentile christian converts at the the church in Colosse.
The colossians in general came from a pagan culture which had their own customs and traditions
If you look at Colosse- it was on an international trade route where the colossians were exposed to a putpourri of different cultures
and with it came more traditions and customs. Syncretism or a mixture of religious beliefs was not uncommon.
The colossian converts were one confused lot and Paul is writing to them to set things straight not to detract from their christian faith
In addition false teachers had infiltrated the church at colosse and were attempting to deceive the believers with their own religious philosphy.
How do i know this?
Look at Col 2 in vs 8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy (religious) and vain deceit,after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (7th day Sabbath keeping is NOT a tradition of Man like Sunday keeping is) 4th Commandment -Exodus 20:8-11)
So put yourself in Paul's shoes, if you were addressing christian converts from a formerly pagan background
who were being harassed by the local pagan community for observing the teachings of the christian faith and trying to impose their man made traditions
Would you be saying to them, "Guys it's ok- just tolerate and practise all the false religious beliefs and man made traditions-
it's not important whether you follow the teachings of the christian faith or not
Would you do this? Of course not
So now Col 2:16 becomes very clear when we know colossians were heavily bombarded with false religious beliefs and man made traditions
and Paul is encouraging the christian converts at Colosse to stand strong and not be intimidated by the local community and false teachers
Colossians 2:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you (on the importance of your observing and practice of your christian faith ) in meat (clean and unclean) , or in drink (no drunkard shall enter the kingdom of God), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon (sighting only), or of the sabbath days (God's laws and commanemnts)
Sorry that was an obvious error- thanks for clarifying Rocky - it should be "those who do not believe in eternal life"
What i meant is someone who does not believe that the bible is the word of God and having the faith in Jesus Christ
and that it is through Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God) that we have salvation and eternal life
1 John 1: 1-2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (John and the Apostles were eye witnesses)
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,
which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Thank you for clarifying what you meant.
Thus far, I'm not persuaded regarding God requiring believers to keep a 7th day sabbath.
I also believe that there is immense value in the Bible not limited to those who believe in eternal life through accepting salvation by way of Jesus Christ.
There are many who accept the Bible as an important document of immense significance documenting cultural heritage.
Let me pose this to you also, what do you believe the consequences may be to individuals who do not "keep the sabbath" the way you understand the sabbath to be prescribed in scripture?
Thus far, I'm not persuaded regarding God requiring believers to keep a 7th day sabbath.
I also believe that there is immense value in the Bible not limited to those who believe in eternal life through accepting salvation by way of Jesus Christ.
There are many who accept the Bible as an important document of immense significance documenting cultural heritage.
Let me pose this to you also, what do you believe the consequences may be to individuals who do not "keep the sabbath" the way you understand the sabbath to be prescribed in scripture?
No problem Rocky- we can still be friends no matter what and whatever you decide- if in the very unliklely event you did believe in 7th day sabbath keeping
dont worry, you dont have to join any cult organization or take pflap deceptive brain washing classes
As I said, I am prepared to accept the fact that you will never accept 7th day sabbath keeping of Exodus 20:8-11
and it looks like it's not hitting home for you, the gravity of 1 John 1: 1-2
so it's a bit of an indication of what's happening spiritually with you at the moment
the spiritually aha moment hasnt happened yet - as it did for me ( I realised from within I had to repent)
This is they type of spiritual awakening I am talking about in the bible verses below. That's why it needs earnest prayer to God
and God will know if you are serious and also you must repent of all known sins in your life- confess it ot God, repent and dont do it again
If you are not prepared to repent of sins currently in your life then there is no point praying
Granted the biblical examples below was in relation to salvation and mine in this case was the sin of ignoring the 7th day sabbath
Acts 9:6
6 And he (paul) trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Acts 2;:7
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter
and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
There can be immense value for non believers as someone like a monk in the dalai lama monastery as in perhaps leading
moral and upright lives definitely but when they die- they are dead ducks for a 1000 yr period after whicn they get
woken up and God will reveal the truth to them at that time. This will also include professing christians who dont have a relationship
with Jesus Christ and at this time they will have God revealing the truth to them directly
John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,the truth (Lord of the Sabbath) , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Before i answer the consequence of those who choose to ignore the 7th day sabbath keeping by treating it as insignificant
Can I ask you, do you believe you have a relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?
Before i answer the consequence of those who choose to ignore the 7th day sabbath keeping by treating it as insignificant
Can I ask you, do you believe you have a relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
Well, obviously you did ask. But I will simply say in response that the answer is private enough that I intend to keep it between me and God for the time being.
I'm still appreciating that you're making a tremendous effort to have a fruitful discussion. Yet, the tone of your comment was troubling, at least as far as the excerpt I quote below.
10 hours ago, Waxit said:
God will know if you are serious and also you must repent of all known sins in your life- confess it ot God, repent and dont do it again
If you are not prepared to repent of sins currently in your life then there is no point praying
You may or may not believe you have a legitimate purpose for posing such to me, but it reeks of judgmental overtones. In that regard, I'm not willing to share such intimate aspects of my life with you, or anyone else publicly here on gsc.
Well, obviously you did ask. But I will simply say in response that the answer is private enough that I intend to keep it between me and God for the time being.
I'm still appreciating that you're making a tremendous effort to have a fruitful discussion. Yet, the tone of your comment was troubling, at least as far as the excerpt I quote below.
You may or may not believe you have a legitimate purpose for posing such to me, but it reeks of judgmental overtones. In that regard, I'm not willing to share such intimate aspects of my life with you, or anyone else publicly here on gsc.
Yes- no problem - this is all private beween you and God- you dont have to share anything with me here on gsc or anywhere
Of course you know you can be honest with God directly. You will see why i asked you the question- i was not being judgemental
because the bible says that 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God
Ok! you asked what are the consequences of someone not keeping the 7th day sabbath
The simple answer is a breakdown in relationship with Jesus Christ which is pretty devastating for christians
and that's why I took the 4th sabbath keeping commandment very seriously
because it' the same level of importance as not stealing, not lying
Yet most christians all over the world ignore the 7th day sabbath
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, ( and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
This scripture below really troubled me and I didnt want to be one of the christians that Jesus would ultimatel rebuke and reject
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, (christians)shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father (laws & commandmens of God which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, (christians)have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (These are christians that may have done more than me or you and yet they were cast out- Why?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (no relationship as far as the lord was concerned): depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(iniquity is translated lawlessness =not compliant with the whole law (includes the 4th day sabbath keeping commandment)
Have i answered your question Rocky
I guess this is sayonara- you probably will not want to talk to me anymore
Hopefully we can still be friends- to be honest, i didnt like you in the beginning but the fact that you genuinely wanted
to understand the sabbath caught my attention and since then you have made it easier for me to explain without
worrying whether you will bite - so far i havent seen any adverse comments directly to me-
other than agreeing with other people in a polite way
and also I didnt have any
expectations from you and i knew what you will decide but because you asked i was willing to share-
just want to let you know, contrary to what you have read on gsc
i dont belong to any specific church and I am not a member of any cult (I know how a cult works)
just friends who i keep in touch with online
Maybe we can share how vpw conned and brainwashed people- so people are aware
whats your experience as to why you think you fell for the indoctrination by the twits
Tell me, please, if I understand your point, you're saying I can't have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ unless I faithfully honor the 7th Day Sabbath?
I guess this is sayonara- you probably will not want to talk to me anymore
Hopefully we can still be friends- to be honest, i didnt like you in the beginning but the fact that you genuinely wanted
to understand the sabbath caught my attention and since then you have made it easier for me to explain without
worrying
For what it's worth, I had no doubt about your attitude toward me at the start. Please allow me to clarify that I genuinely want(ed) to understand YOU.
I'm confident enough with God, but as humans, we are flawed. I stopped to consider the situation and realized that the issue is NOT whether I am right or you are wrong.
Rather, it's whether I give you room to be a person who has developed his own path spiritually and that my care and responsibility (to God and to you) is to give you that room (in my mind) and consider you a real live person who deserves respect whether I come to agree with you or not.
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WordWolf
Waxit, a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether bi
Stayed Too Long
Waxit Do you have any plans to address: Romans 14: 5-6; Galatians 4: 9-10, Colossians 2:16? I didn’t quote the three versus because they have been brought to your attention numerous tim
WordWolf
None whatsoever. Waxit refuses to even consider whether the Sabbath is to be regarded or not. He assumes it is to be kept, period. The only point he'd consider is on which day it should be observed
Waxit
Colossians 2:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. ( Mark made a comment of this so I will include it in here- no charge
The above verse is actually saying the opposite of what you are thinking. You have got it backwards
You are of the understanding that Paul is saying, Guys! dont let people criticise you for what type of meat or drink you are having
and in regards to whether you are or are not observing holy day, new moon and keeping of sabbath> This is not important
It's actually the other way around i.e it is important that you are not put off in practising the teachings of your christian faith.
Please consider carefully who Paul was talking to and what the colossians were faced with
i.e pagan culture and false teachers trying to impose the religious traditions of man
If you read it in context and the fact that the churche at colosse came from a pagan background
Paul is telling the gentile christians not to be intimidated for observing the teachings of christianity- clean and unclean meat
sabbath keeping, holy days etc
Colossians was a letter written to the gentile christian converts at the the church in Colosse.
The colossians in general came from a pagan culture which had their own customs and traditions
If you look at Colosse- it was on an international trade route where the colossians were exposed to a putpourri of different cultures
and with it came more traditions and customs. Syncretism or a mixture of religious beliefs was not uncommon.
The colossian converts were one confused lot and Paul is writing to them to set things straight not to detract from their christian faith
In addition false teachers had infiltrated the church at colosse and were attempting to deceive the believers with their own religious philosphy.
How do i know this?
Look at Col 2 in vs 8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy (religious) and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (7th day Sabbath keeping is NOT a tradition of Man like Sunday keeping is) 4th Commandment -Exodus 20:8-11)
So put yourself in Paul's shoes, if you were addressing christian converts from a formerly pagan background
who were being harassed by the local pagan community for observing the teachings of the christian faith and trying to impose their man made traditions
Would you be saying to them, "Guys it's ok- just tolerate and practise all the false religious beliefs and man made traditions-
it's not important whether you follow the teachings of the christian faith or not
Would you do this? Of course not
So now Col 2:16 becomes very clear when we know colossians were heavily bombarded with false religious beliefs and man made traditions
and Paul is encouraging the christian converts at Colosse to stand strong and not be intimidated by the local community and false teachers
Colossians 2:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you (on the importance of your observing and practice of your christian faith ) in meat (clean and unclean) , or in drink (no drunkard shall enter the kingdom of God), or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon (sighting only), or of the sabbath days (God's laws and commanemnts)
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Rocky
Thank you for clarifying what you meant.
Thus far, I'm not persuaded regarding God requiring believers to keep a 7th day sabbath.
I also believe that there is immense value in the Bible not limited to those who believe in eternal life through accepting salvation by way of Jesus Christ.
There are many who accept the Bible as an important document of immense significance documenting cultural heritage.
Let me pose this to you also, what do you believe the consequences may be to individuals who do not "keep the sabbath" the way you understand the sabbath to be prescribed in scripture?
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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Waxit
No problem Rocky- we can still be friends no matter what and whatever you decide- if in the very unliklely event you did believe in 7th day sabbath keeping
dont worry, you dont have to join any cult organization or take pflap deceptive brain washing classes
As I said, I am prepared to accept the fact that you will never accept 7th day sabbath keeping of Exodus 20:8-11
and it looks like it's not hitting home for you, the gravity of 1 John 1: 1-2
so it's a bit of an indication of what's happening spiritually with you at the moment
the spiritually aha moment hasnt happened yet - as it did for me ( I realised from within I had to repent)
This is they type of spiritual awakening I am talking about in the bible verses below. That's why it needs earnest prayer to God
and God will know if you are serious and also you must repent of all known sins in your life- confess it ot God, repent and dont do it again
If you are not prepared to repent of sins currently in your life then there is no point praying
Granted the biblical examples below was in relation to salvation and mine in this case was the sin of ignoring the 7th day sabbath
Acts 9:6
6 And he (paul) trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Acts 2;:7
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter
and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
There can be immense value for non believers as someone like a monk in the dalai lama monastery as in perhaps leading
moral and upright lives definitely but when they die- they are dead ducks for a 1000 yr period after whicn they get
woken up and God will reveal the truth to them at that time. This will also include professing christians who dont have a relationship
with Jesus Christ and at this time they will have God revealing the truth to them directly
John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth (Lord of the Sabbath) , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Before i answer the consequence of those who choose to ignore the 7th day sabbath keeping by treating it as insignificant
Can I ask you, do you believe you have a relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?
Edited by WaxitLink to comment
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Rocky
Well, obviously you did ask. But I will simply say in response that the answer is private enough that I intend to keep it between me and God for the time being.
I'm still appreciating that you're making a tremendous effort to have a fruitful discussion. Yet, the tone of your comment was troubling, at least as far as the excerpt I quote below.
You may or may not believe you have a legitimate purpose for posing such to me, but it reeks of judgmental overtones. In that regard, I'm not willing to share such intimate aspects of my life with you, or anyone else publicly here on gsc.
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Share on other sites
Waxit
Yes- no problem - this is all private beween you and God- you dont have to share anything with me here on gsc or anywhere
Of course you know you can be honest with God directly. You will see why i asked you the question- i was not being judgemental
because the bible says that 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God
Ok! you asked what are the consequences of someone not keeping the 7th day sabbath
The simple answer is a breakdown in relationship with Jesus Christ which is pretty devastating for christians
and that's why I took the 4th sabbath keeping commandment very seriously
because it' the same level of importance as not stealing, not lying
Yet most christians all over the world ignore the 7th day sabbath
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, ( and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
This scripture below really troubled me and I didnt want to be one of the christians that Jesus would ultimatel rebuke and reject
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, (christians)shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father (laws & commandmens of God which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, (christians)have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (These are christians that may have done more than me or you and yet they were cast out- Why?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (no relationship as far as the lord was concerned): depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.(iniquity is translated lawlessness =not compliant with the whole law (includes the 4th day sabbath keeping commandment)
Have i answered your question Rocky
I guess this is sayonara- you probably will not want to talk to me anymore
Hopefully we can still be friends- to be honest, i didnt like you in the beginning but the fact that you genuinely wanted
to understand the sabbath caught my attention and since then you have made it easier for me to explain without
worrying whether you will bite - so far i havent seen any adverse comments directly to me-
other than agreeing with other people in a polite way
and also I didnt have any
expectations from you and i knew what you will decide but because you asked i was willing to share-
just want to let you know, contrary to what you have read on gsc
i dont belong to any specific church and I am not a member of any cult (I know how a cult works)
just friends who i keep in touch with online
Maybe we can share how vpw conned and brainwashed people- so people are aware
whats your experience as to why you think you fell for the indoctrination by the twits
Regards
Waxit
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Rocky
Tell me, please, if I understand your point, you're saying I can't have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ unless I faithfully honor the 7th Day Sabbath?
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Rocky
For what it's worth, I had no doubt about your attitude toward me at the start. Please allow me to clarify that I genuinely want(ed) to understand YOU.
I'm confident enough with God, but as humans, we are flawed. I stopped to consider the situation and realized that the issue is NOT whether I am right or you are wrong.
Rather, it's whether I give you room to be a person who has developed his own path spiritually and that my care and responsibility (to God and to you) is to give you that room (in my mind) and consider you a real live person who deserves respect whether I come to agree with you or not.
Cheers.
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Rocky
Okay Gabe, we've gotten your argument from the scriptures.
Now, if you would be so kind, please share with us how and why you came to believe in the importance of the 7th day Sabbath.
What is YOUR story that brought you to this place and this belief.
Thanks.
Btw, I hold no animosity toward or for you, simply because I disagree with you.
Steve
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Twinky
I think he shared some of that on the other thread. Bit confusing, having two almost identical threads on the go.
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Rocky
I would still appreciate our friend Waxit/Gabe answering for himself, thanks.
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