Productive discussion entails each side giving genuine consideration to the points raised by the other side.
Alas, that's not happening with you on the subject of Sabbath legalism.
That's just really, really sad.
Are you genuinely interested in finding more about sabbath? Why it's the most misunderstood and most ignored commandment of God
I once thought the same way you did i.e legalistic (how wrong i was when I go by what what the bible says
Upon a deeper examination of the word of God (the bible)
I find that sabbath legalism is through the orhodox jews- with diverse rules- 1000's and complicated
which they introduced and tried to impose it on christian converts. The sabbath of the bible is not he sabbath of Judaism. Jews have their own man made laws codified in the talmud
I dont know if we can have a productive discussion
Can I ask you what category do you fall into? Are you a trintarian, gnostic, atheist??
I just want to see if it's possible to have a productive conversation- also can you stop calling me dude- personally i feel it's disrespectful
a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether big or small. We have to acknowledge that we are ALL trying to communicate, and are entitled to courtesy, and, at least here, a chance to be heard.
To know if it's possible to have a "productive conversation", we need to know if the participants are really willing to converse. If one or more are just interested in advertising, mudslinging, trolling, or insulting, then we can't really have any kind of "conversation." It really sounds like you're disinterested in anyone here- except as an AUDIENCE or as someone to AGREE WITH YOU automatically. We're often open to changing positions, but only if the other side makes more sense than our own, not just because someone insists they're right, or insists they know what God wants, or insists they're right because they have great conviction. If you really want to change minds here, you'd actually have to DISCUSS and CONVERSE.
Stop and ask yourself if you're really ready to do that, please.
Can I ask you what category do you fall into? Are you a trintarian, gnostic, atheist??
I just want to see if it's possible to have a productive conversation- also can you stop calling me dude- personally i feel it's disrespectful
You can ask. But I'd suggest that no matter how I answer, you might be inclined to put me in a box, in your mind, and dismiss me. I would ask YOU, what are you willing to bring to the table that would engender trust in your ability to engage in good faith.
I didn't intend disrespect when addressing you as a dude... but I will cease using the term and try to be more respectful.
a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether big or small. We have to acknowledge that we are ALL trying to communicate, and are entitled to courtesy, and, at least here, a chance to be heard.
To know if it's possible to have a "productive conversation", we need to know if the participants are really willing to converse. If one or more are just interested in advertising, mudslinging, trolling, or insulting, then we can't really have any kind of "conversation." It really sounds like you're disinterested in anyone here- except as an AUDIENCE or as someone to AGREE WITH YOU automatically. We're often open to changing positions, but only if the other side makes more sense than our own, not just because someone insists they're right, or insists they know what God wants, or insists they're right because they have great conviction. If you really want to change minds here, you'd actually have to DISCUSS and CONVERSE.
Stop and ask yourself if you're really ready to do that, please.
I hope that Waxit at least sees that the sixth commandment of murdering someone should be a higher crime than the fourth commandment of working on the Old Testament Sabbath day, which to him is Saturday. Waxit will see that if he wants to. However, does he want to see that?
You can ask. But I'd suggest that no matter how I answer, you might be inclined to put me in a box, in your mind, and dismiss me. I would ask YOU, what are you willing to bring to the table that would engender trust in your ability to engage in good faith.
The very fact that you engaged with me and reached out to have a productive discussion about sabbath/ sabbath legalsim is a good sign.
Unless you are an atheist- that does not believe in God or an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God
(when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible)
that it is inerrant in its accuracy and can be relied and trusted then I think we can have a productive discussion
But If you dont agree with the above and you are an agnostic, atheist then please let me know your spiritual standing/denomination
I am not going to dismiss you- please dont pre judge me- this is a mistake we all make
However, the Bible, Jesus Christ and God The Father must be central in our thinking in examining the truth of God's word
if we are to have a productive discussion
How I am going to engender trust and engage in good faith?
I have learnt from my past mistakes in gsc that the best way to engage in a meaningful dialogue is to love people/ understand where they are coming from
and not to resort to bible bashing, right off the bat only introduce bible verses when it is relevant and ask relevant questions and ensure that it does get answered
otherwise things can go all over the place and into something that's off the subject being discussed
My biggest mistake when i was in twi was i never questioned vpw-never checked his history or the twi cult and was deceived by his theatrics and I should have stayed away from the infected way households which prevented me from "thinking outside the way box"
People in gsc (ex way) have had this systematic brain washing ( manipulative and deceitful handling of the word)
shoved down their throats by the maggots at twi and for some people it may have taken a very long
time to recover (I am one of them) so I have got to be mindful of that.
I am responding to your post to me in regards to having a productive discussion on the issue of 7th day sabbath
I hope that Waxit at least sees that the sixth commandment of murdering someone should be a higher crime than the fourth commandment of working on the Old Testament Sabbath day, which to him is Saturday. Waxit will see that if he wants to. However, does he want to see that?
Hi Mark
I can understand where you are coming from in terms of one commandment being more important than the other
but that's not what God thinks.
The bible says that all the 10 commandments are equally important so that if you ignore one than it's as if are guilty of ignoring
all the rest.
So there is no such thing as a most important commandment or the least important commandment with God
They are all important and should not be ignored. We must understand who the commandments are coming from.
It's the God of the universe- all knowing, all powerful and all wise. am so thankful that He is loving and kind and
loves us. But one thing for sure- he cannot deny nor will he budge from the laws that he set up for our benefit and
for our all important relationship with God
So what does the bible say if we keep all the commandments except for one commandment?
This is what God says in:
James 2: 10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (1 John 3:4)
So conversely what James is saying, also applies to all the other commandments.
For instance if you keep the sixth commandment by not murdering another person and
yet do not keep the fourth commandment by ignoring the 7th day sabbaththen you become a transgressor of the law
and are committing a sin. It's as if you are guilty of violating the whole 10 commandments. Refer above in vs 10: guilty of all
I know from a human perspective- we tend to grade our offences from highly offensive to mild
but please note what the bible is clearly saying. God went to great lengths to save us from our sins through the sacrificial lamb of God-
his only begotten Son- The Lord Jesus Christ and is a very loving God.
He does not want you to sin through ignorance of the 10 commandments.
The conseqences or wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death of a relationship with Him. Ths is what Adam & Eve experienced
when they disobeyed God by eating of the "fruit of the tree of good and evil"
God loved David very much but David paid very heavily for his one time adulterous affair with Batsheba.
The 7th day sabbath is ignored every week by most Christians. Do you honestly think that God will close his eyes on this?
Look at it this way, you are in 4 x 100 meters relay squad for the USA team in the Tokyo Olympics and prepared really well
and the finals of the 4 x 100 metres event begins
So bang goes the gun and your team gets to a fantastic start, the first and second runner do tremendously
well and the baton is passed to you with perfect timing and your team is leading by a "mile" and you take off
and run a brilliant race in record time and when you pass the baton to the fastest runner in the team, a tragedy happens
horror of horrors, the baton is not held on properly and gets dropped. There is a deathly silence in the whole stadium
Can you then tell the event officials- Look! we deserve to get the gold medal we did eveything in record time- what's one slip
of the baton -it was wet and it slipped- big deal- Do you think you will get the gold medal?
1 John 3:4 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
There are many who will argue against this on gsc- guaranteed- at the end of the day this is God's word not mine
but please understand God loves you and wants to bless you in getting you to rest and devote your time to God on the 7th day -in prayer,meditation, study and other like minded believers. Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27)
However I do acknowledge that Jesus Christ said in Matt 22:37-40 that the greatest commandment is to love God with all thy heart,
mind and soul and alongside that to love your neighbour as yourself but He never said, you can ignore His laws & commandments
(Including the 7th day sabbath)
He said, "on the 2 greatest commandments hang all the law and the prophets"
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandmentshangall the law and the prophets.
So what this means according to the bible is that the foundation or the whole purpose for obeying all the commandments of God (eg 10 commandments) hinges on/based on (1) loving God with all our hearts, mind and soul and (2) loving our neighbours as our own selves
The first 4 commandment relates to God- you keep because you love God with all your heart, mind and soul
The next 6 commandments relates to your neighbour (mankind) - you keep because you love people around you from a godly perspective and will not violate or harm your neighbours or dishonour your parents in any way
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
NIV
The context of verse James 3:4 is our human relationship with one another as seen in the verses that follow the verse Waxit quoted from,. Here is information from the Nelson Bible Dictionary about commandments 4 and 6.
Quote
4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Exodus 20:8). Sabbath means "rest," but God intended for this day to stand for more than an absence of work. It was to be a day of worship as well-a day for setting aside all thoughts of materialistic gain and thinking about Him. God Himself set the pattern by ceasing from His labors after creating the world. Why, then, must modern-day Christians feel that being busy is equated with being spiritual?
6. "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Commandments six through nine pertain to our relationships with one another. The breakdown of these guidelines has plunged many civilizations into decay. A person who cares about others, beginning with those in the home, does not want to harm them. This law reveals God's attitude toward people created in His image. No one has the right to take that life from another
Waxit you are really good at promoting your main and primary church doctrine which is the Sabbath day (Saturday). What church do you go to that promotes commandent four the most compared to other church doctrine?
The very fact that you engaged with me and reached out to have a productive discussion about sabbath/ sabbath legalsim is a good sign. Unless you are an atheist- that does not believe in God or an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God
(when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible)
that it is inerrant in its accuracy and can be relied and trusted then I think we can have a productive discussion
But If you dont agree with the above and you are an agnostic, atheist then please let me know your spiritual standing/denomination
I am not going to dismiss you- please dont pre judge me- this is a mistake we all make
However, the Bible, Jesus Christ and God The Father must be central in our thinking in examining the truth of God's word
if we are to have a productive discussion
How I am going to engender trust and engage in good faith?
I have learnt from my past mistakes in gsc that the best way to engage in a meaningful dialogue is to love people/ understand where they are coming from
and not to resort to bible bashing, right off the bat only introduce bible verses when it is relevant and ask relevant questions and ensure that it does get answered
otherwise things can go all over the place and into something that's off the subject being discussed
My biggest mistake when i was in twi was i never questioned vpw-never checked his history or the twi cult and was deceived by his theatrics and I should have stayed away from the infected way households which prevented me from "thinking outside the way box"
People in gsc (ex way) have had this systematic brain washing ( manipulative and deceitful handling of the word)
shoved down their throats by the maggots at twi and for some people it may have taken a very long
time to recover (I am one of them) so I have got to be mindful of that.
I am responding to your post to me in regards to having a productive discussion on the issue of 7th day sabbath
Regards
Waxit
Waxit,
I believe we all can have a productive conversation if we all really listen, ask questions, be respectful and find common ground. And generally speaking, folks like to have their ideas validated – nothing wrong with wanting that.
I've found that really productive discussions involving theology, doctrine, theory and practice tend to go through a refining process – where everyone tries to get down to the nitty gritty of the issues – by focusing on the most important or fundamental aspects of the issues. There is often a give and take that goes on – concessions and compromises – and sometimes something significant is achieved. From my own experience on Grease Spot there’s been times: I’ve abandoned, modified, expanded, changed or simply validated my position on something; broadened my horizon; gained a deeper understanding of something by listening to someone else’s perspective on it.
Per your request and as a gesture of good faith, I will briefly state where I’m coming from – although I think one’s belief system is very complex and usually doesn’t lend itself to being conveniently pigeonholed – as you’ll see in the qualifiers I tack on to my position on stuff – and maybe you’ll find some common ground in all this.
I am somewhat of a Christian agnostic - I do follow the basic tenets of the Christian faith – but when it comes to God - I do believe in God but feel that there is so much more about the Creator that goes way beyond my understanding or any theology.
I do regard the Bible as the Word of God. Even though it has obvious errors and contradictions, especially in some historical or scientific matters – However, I believe any problems are few and far between in matters of faith – the basic tenets of Christianity – such as the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and all that accomplished…loving God…loving my neighbor as myself…sin, repentance, forgiveness, etc...and anyway "technically" speaking my faith is placed in a person (Jesus Christ ) rather than in a book. But if anything the Bible is certainly one of the means of developing my relationship with Jesus Christ.
Also I wanted to be honest and upfront with you about your statement “an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible”…”Rightly divided” is an interesting and unusual KJV phrase. I think it has been co-opted by various groups – becoming something of a catchphrase that goes well beyond the original idea that it was intended to convey. For some folks “rightly divided” seems to function as loaded language to persuade folks that their interpretation of the Bible or a particular passage is the correct and only valid explanation…Just wanted to let everyone know when I read “rightly divided” in a post, I automatically translate it to “in my opinion the correct interpretation of the passage is as follows…” . Hopefully some sound principles of interpretation were involved in the process…for more on principles of interpretation see Wikipedia Hermeneutics and Stanford Ency. of Philosophy: Hermeneutics and regarding KJV phrase "rightly dividing" see What did Paul mean by rightly dividing for an interesting read.
Waxit,
hopefully we all can look past what folks say regarding their own beliefs – not dismissing or pre-judging them. That will encourage folks to think outside their own theological box – and that will truly be a productive discussion.
== == ==
Having said all that – I want to address your other post.
Quote
Waxit said:
"...However I do acknowledge that Jesus Christ said in Matt 22:37-40 that the greatest commandment is to love God with all thy heart,
mind and soul and alongside that to love your neighbour as yourself but He never said, you can ignore His laws & commandments
(Including the 7th day sabbath)
He said, "on the 2 greatest commandments hang all the law and the prophets"
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So what this means according to the bible is that the foundation or the whole purpose for obeying all the commandments of God (eg 10 commandments) hinges on/based on (1) loving God with all our hearts, mind and soul and (2) loving our neighbours as our own selves ..."
Waxit,
I agree that the basis, foundation…the reason behind obeying the law and the prophets should always be doing it out of love for God and neighbor. But I don’t see why you assume that means the command to keep the Sabbath is still in effect. You may be technically correct in claiming Jesus ".. never said, you can ignore His laws & commandments (Including the 7th day sabbath)"...But I don't think he needed to say that, because he is obviously explaining a "law" that supersedes all that...the law of love...The way Jesus explained the law in Matthew 22 makes me think of an attorney in the courtroom interpreting what is the intent of the law...This "law" of love is obviously a ruling factor in Romans 14 regarding how one should behave around others who may have different convictions than we do...the intent of the law has always been to engender love.
Matter of fact there are several passages in the epistles that echo that simple summation in Matthew 22 of “love thy neighbor” and actually do not mention any specific lawsthat we are obliged to keep – see Rom. 13: 8, 9; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8…it seems to me "the law" has always been about love. Love is the common denominator of anything God has asked of believers.
so if a verse like Galatians 5:14 says “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” and “fulfilled” means satisfied, brought to completion or accomplished – so I was wondering
why do you think Christians are duty-bound - morally or legally obliged to keep the Sabbath?
Edited by T-Bone out-of-the-box revision solutions
I didn’t quote the three versus because they have been brought to your attention numerous times by several other posters.
Waxit
These three verses just don’t go away and you just keep ignoring them.
Are you a glutton for punishment? If you check prior postings, you will notice that you have convinced no one of your atgument concerning the Sabbath. For weeks you have been throwing out the same arguments and getting the same negative responses.
“Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.” Have you heard that one before?
Another scripture that Waxit quoted to try to make his point of the importance of the Old Testament law Sabbath day was James 2:10-11. James was an Israelite that started a church in Jerusalem. Since he was in the capital city of Israel while being raised as an Israelite, James advocated and respected the Old Testament law. However, he did not use this as a weapon against Gentiles, and Paul even thought that James endorsed his ministry to the Gentiles according to Galatians 2:1-10. Galatians 2:9-10
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. NIV
Again the context of James 2:10-11 is our human relationship with one another. This chapter only mentions wrong actions of hatred among people for example murder in verse 11.
Quote
James 2
2 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
NIV
However, there was no reason for Abraham to kill or sacrifice his son Isaac from verse 21. To me this is a clear example of things improving under Jesus Christ. Fortunately, God after testing his faith before the Old Testament law, got him to not kill Isaac his son. Also after thinking about this, this deals with the future sacrifice of Jesus Christ as payment for the imperfection or sin nature of humanity. Instead of the sacrifice of Isaac, the son of Abraham. This can or should be seen as the prophetic future sacrifice of God's son Jesus Christ instead of the sacrifice of Abraham's son Isaac or any other imperfect human.
A bit maybe, but this chapter of James was discussed in my church's talk (sermon) on Sunday last. Simon, who gives the talk, definitely puts his actions into what his mouth says. The reading (by one of the children in the congregation) starts at about 39:15, and the talk is about 10 mins, less than 15, and full of challenges to line up our lives better.
Waxit you are really good at promoting your main and primary church doctrine which is the Sabbath day (Saturday). What church do you go to that promotes commandent four the most compared to other church doctrine?
Mark
Please do not misunderstand me and I have said this many times so hopefully you will change your perception of me in regards to sabbath promotion
I am not saying that 7th day sabbath keeping is the be all and end all. Far from it-
I repeat, the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart ,mind and soul and next to it is to love your neighbour as yourself
Why do I then focus on sabbath keeping?
Because this is the most misunderstood commandment of God and largely ignored by christians worldwide.
Romans and Galatians are two of the most difficult books to understand and the kjv translators have confused a lot
of people by not making the distinction between "works of law" i.e traditions of men - as in jewish man made laws -
which has nothing to do with God's laws and commandments (includes the 10 commandments)
If you compare In the original greek (greek interlinear) whenever "works of law" (traditions of man)- greek "nomou" or the works of the law (God's laws and commandments) "tou nomou"
with what it's saying in the kjv, you will see that kjv translators have messed it up by plastering two thre letter words "the" everywhere it states "works of law" (traditions of men)
so now they have made "works of law" (traditions of men) into "the works of the law" (God's laws or commandments ) and so
everyone now thinks that you dont have to keep God's laws and commandments wheres what the bible is saying (if you look in the original greek),
that you dont have to keep 'works' of law" -traditions of men but you keep God's laws and commandments (All of the 10 commandments)
So this misunderstanding which is brought about by kjv translators causes people to excuse themselves from sabbath keeping because they understand
it as something unnecessary and various reasons are given based on this misunderstanding of "works of law" (tmans traditions) and "the works of the law" (God's laws)
Sabbath keeping becomes the easiest target to ignore based on wrong understanding of the verses relating to law in Romans and Galatians
Romans 2:15 is the only verse thats correctly translated as "the works of the law' (God's laws) in the bible
When it comes to the 10 commandments, people readily acknowledge that stealing, lying and adultery is sin but somehow they wriggle out of the sabbath- that's absurd come to think of it
So the question is why only wriggle out of sabbath keeping why not continue to steal, kill and murder and commit adultery- Doesnt make sense does it?
So this is serious- sabbath keeping must be viewed with the same importance as not stealing, not lying, not tworshipping other Gods etc ( today in the real world a lot of people worship themselves without realising it)
I repeat:
The reason why we keep the first 4 commandments of God should be because we love God with all our heart, mind and soul
The reason why we keep the next 6 commandments iof God should be because we love our neighbours/parents (mankind) as ourselves
Whats one of the ways God knows we love Him:
John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments (not traditions of men)
The very fact that you engaged with me and reached out to have a productive discussion about sabbath/ sabbath legalsim is a good sign.
Unless you are an atheist- that does not believe in God or an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God
(when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible)
that it is inerrant in its accuracy and can be relied and trusted then I think we can have a productive discussion
But If you dont agree with the above and you are an agnostic, atheist then please let me know your spiritual standing/denomination
I am not going to dismiss you- please dont pre judge me- this is a mistake we all make
However, the Bible, Jesus Christ and God The Father must be central in our thinking in examining the truth of God's word
if we are to have a productive discussion
How I am going to engender trust and engage in good faith?
I have learnt from my past mistakes in gsc that the best way to engage in a meaningful dialogue is to love people/ understand where they are coming from
and not to resort to bible bashing, right off the bat only introduce bible verses when it is relevant and ask relevant questions and ensure that it does get answered
otherwise things can go all over the place and into something that's off the subject being discussed
Waxit, what you label "agnostic" above... I'm not agnostic. But I'm also not fundamentalist. I view the Bible as a book of stories inspired by God, rather than a rule book that should be parsed and then used on which to base a legalistic subculture.
Will you still refrain from dismissing me?
"love people/understand where they are coming from" sounds like you're describing a willingness to genuinely listen and consider what those responding to you are saying. I hope that's true.
Waxit, do you see that because the book of Revelation has mostly figurative and not literal explanations, that this writing is much more challenging to understand than the epistles (letters) of Romans and Galatians? Because of the figurative and not literal method of teaching used in the book of Revelation, this may be or is the most misunderstood with differences of views among people in the entire bible. Paul wrote his epistles much more clearly than John did in the book of Revelation. However, I was still able to write an article recently on end times through Jesus Christ with some of it explaining the symbolically written last four chapters of the book of Revelation. For example, when John got visions of 12 gates at the entrance to what was figuratively called the “New Jerusalem”. Yes, “New Jerusalem” would be a favorable explanation with the new heaven and earth for the Jews, but not necessarily for the Gentiles who had a different capital city than Jerusalem. Paul simply wrote his epistles for the Gentiles who were not part of the nation of Israel with the ten commandments. Instead as nations, for example the ancient Greek and Roman, they had different laws, cultures and traditions than the Israelite's. There was no need to mention and promote the day of Sabbath for them. So instead Paul promoted and explained the savior of both the Jews and Gentiles, who is Jesus Christ.
You at least see that the greatest commandment is to love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself. As far as reading the bible, there is different biblical versions that were written in updated English for more clear understanding. For example, the New International Version which is less difficult to understand now than the King James Version which was written in the 1500s.
Hey all, this is a follow up to my previous post – I had some other ideas about Jesus’ remarks on the two great commandments in Matthew 22… after listening to Twinky’s post from her church’s streaming service – a kid, Lucas reading from James 2: 14 - 26 and Simon’s talk on faith in word and deed – I felt my other ideas were now crystalized enough to try and articulate them. By the way, thanks for that, Twinky – an incredible sermon to say the least! One of the things that really stood out was his story of a vicar who was so very busy – a homeless lady came up to him desperately pleading for help; the busy vicar kindly dismissed her - saying he was too busy but promised he would pray for her. The homeless lady then wrote a poem and gave it to the local shelter officer. What really got to me was the aloofness sometimes found in folks who are too busy in their religious duties…parts of the poem: “I was hungry and you formed a humanities group to discuss my hunger…I was sick and you knelt and thanked God for your health…I was lonely and you left me alone to pray for me…” another stunning line was what someone said to Simon after a violent encounter while Simon and others were helping some street kids in Brazil – the person said to Simon “pity cries and then goes away – but compassion stays.” great stuff – thanks again for that, Twinky – I think Simon is truly a great servant for Christ!!!
So getting back to some things I thought of while drafting my previous post – about Matthew 22, Jesus summing up the law and the prophets with just two great commandments – the first is to love God (v. 37) and the second – Jesus said is LIKE the first – love your neighbor as yourself (v. 39). A word stuck out to me – “And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” It appears that Jesus is drawing some similarity between the first command love God and the second command to love your neighbor as yourself.
That little word “like” conveys the idea that the two commandments have the same characteristics, qualities or importance…or they are just very similar to each other. What made it even more intriguing to me was the obvious omission of mentioning the first great commandment to love God in the epistles that I referenced in my previous post, calling attention to only the second great commandment – to love your neighbor as yourself (Rom. 13: 8, 9; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8 ). Now I don’t know what to make of that and I’m just thinking out loud here…
…I’m wondering if the reason those verses focused on only the second commandment is because of the tendency we have to get so wrapped up in “our relationship with God” and our service/devotion to God we forget about our connection with others…I can still remember with crystal clarity, a major breakthrough in realizing the importance of the second command to love my neighbor as myself. It happened a few months after I left TWI and was in the early stages of shedding that prideful elitist mindset. I was in a supermarket by myself - and as I was nonchalantly doing some people watching – a thought stabbed me right in the heart – I am no better than anyone else here…I began crying and then had to stifle my emotions so I could continue shopping and check out at the register. That was just one of the many watershed moments I’ve had in casting off some cultic attitudes…
…Anyway – a few passages come to mind…in the gospel of Luke, a lawyer summed up the requirements of the law exactly as Jesus had done in Matthew 22:
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”…Luke 10: 25 – 37 ESV
What I find so interesting (and self-incriminating ) in the Luke account is how Jesus exposed and rebuked the cancerous self-righteous attitude (note v.29, the lawyer “desiring to justify himself”) found in some groups who think they are totally correct or morally superior when compared to others. I am fascinated by Jesus reversing the lawyer’s original question in v. 29 “who is my neighbor?”. What I’ve garnered from some commentaries and The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is that the prevailing opinion among Pharisees and scribes (“scribes” and “lawyers” are interchangeable in the Gospels – “Scribes had knowledge of the law and could draft legal documents contracts for marriage, divorce, loans, inheritance, mortgages, the sale of land, and the like). Every village had at least one scribe.” From Britannica: Scribes and Pharisees ) was that one’s neighbors were the righteous ones – i.e. part of their religious group. Similar to the prevailing opinion in TWI – with ideas like they’re the only group who has more of the “rightly-divided Word” than anyone else and unless you are born again and now are composed of body, soul and spirit then you are just an empty floating by…So I think it might be safe to say the lawyer more or less assumed it was up to others to prove themselves worthy enough to be his neighbor. Jesus’ reversal makes it clear that the lawyer must prove himself to be a good neighbor by tending to someone in need who has crossed his path.
In a similar vein, the Sermon on the Mount stresses the importance of loving your neighbor – most notably in Matthew 5: 23, 24, “So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. “… Jesus more or less puts reconciliation with a brother as a higher priority over devotion and worship …and in Matthew 7: 12 where Jesus talks about the golden rule “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” Notice once again how Jesus underscores the ethical principle of “love your neighbor as yourself” in the law and the prophets.
As mentioned by T-bone, good points about the word "like" showing that both involving love as taught by Jesus Christ, have the same characteristics. And this is why Paul did not need to mention the first of the two regarding love in the following verses from Romans. Waxit writes well and has a lot of energy in promoting his favorite doctrine now, Sabbath day. However, with Waxit being able to read and write, it is recommended that he not close his eyes when reading the less difficult to read epistle of Romans and these verses from the New International Version. And it may be sad to him that it does not mention the Sabbath Day.
Quote
Romans 13:6-10
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV
Waxit, what you label "agnostic" above... I'm not agnostic. But I'm also not fundamentalist. I view the Bible as a book of stories inspired by God, rather than a rule book that should be parsed and then used on which to base a legalistic subculture.
Waxit, what you label "agnostic" above... I'm not agnostic. But I'm also not fundamentalist. I view the Bible as a book of stories inspired by God, rather than a rule book that should be parsed and then used on which to base a legalistic subculture.
Will you still refrain from dismissing me?
"love people/understand where they are coming from" sounds like you're describing a willingness to genuinely listen and consider what those responding to you are saying. I hope that's true.
I am not going to dismiss you but wondering if it's going to be productive and if it's worth your time
talking to someone who is a serious christian and considers the bible (the word of God) as a loving guide inspired by God
The bible is like a personal letter from God to me not like a story book
You are better off speaking to someone who is laid back and get along really well and will learn more because you see eye to eye
-I hope you can see that are differences to your casual approach to
the bible ans compared to my belief that it is the infallible word of God and inerrant in its accuracy and can be 100% relied and
trusted on the all important issue of where we are going to spend eternity
2 Peter 1:3 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Jesus said, "The words that i speak to you are spirit and they are life" John 6:63
I believe the bible is God's own guidance book on how to live like Jesus Christ that will enable Him (God) to transform
us (serious christians) into the image of His dear Son Jesus Christ
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I know you will say that this is all twi stuff- twi can go and jump in the lake
I should have had the sense to take the above verses and tear twi apart - i didnt do it and paid the price spiritually
Also, The bible does say in 2Timothy 2:15 to study and examine the word of God- The reason for this is that there are a lot of errors in
the bible (kjv version) that have crept in because of translation errors and there is a need to examine everything in a bible verse
so it harmonises with the rest of the bible and there are no contradictions with other bible verses in the word of God
There are loop holes in twi teaching left right and centre which i should hace checked out instead of letting myself be brainwashed
Yes! definitely we have been through twi and have been thoroughly hood winked by the stinking maggots
The one thing I have learnt coming out of twi- is that I need to be carefully who i trust, which organization is "teaching" the word- to thoroughly
check them out before i give them a dime.
And whatever that is taught- to ensure that it is rightly divided which means there are absolutely no
contradictions with the rest of the bible- And ask questions and if something smellsspiritually - get out of there
See I am not into interested into leading someone into a legalist sub culture as you call it
I am only interested in experiencing freedom as what Jesus said it will do if I obey and practise what God tells me
to do via His word. If people want this kind of freedom then only God can give then lets' study the bible to glean the truth
of what God is saying
John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free
So Rocky, I dont know what you want to achieve by talking to someone like me. It would be like a mexican talking to a chinese lol
Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
What do you want to get out of having a chat with me?
There are lots of other folks in gsc where you get along like a house on fire
I am not going to dismiss you but wondering if it's going to be productive and if it's worth your time
talking to someone who is a serious christian and considers the bible (the word of God) as a loving guide inspired by God
The bible is like a personal letter from God to me not like a story book You are better off speaking to someone who is laid back and get along really well and will learn more because you see eye to eye
-I hope you can see that are differences to your casual approach to
the bible ans compared to my belief that it is the infallible word of God and inerrant in its accuracy and can be 100% relied and
trusted on the all important issue of where we are going to spend eternity
(snip)...
Hi Waxit,
I am curious - it seems to me that it’s worth your time to keep returning to the same topical discussion (whether here or on the other thread you started) – so there must be something “productive” going on…I mean, you must be getting something out of it…why else would you continue to post even though others have expressed different attitudes than yours and don’t agree with your idea of the importance of keeping the Sabbath. Personally, I always enjoy discussions when there’s a wide variety of a viewpoints.
Why are you ignoring certain posters who have asked you direct questions?
Is your avoidance out of frustration or fear or something else?
You talk about all of us being hoodwinked by wierwille/TWI in the past – but it appears that you still harbor one of wierwille’s most deceptive tricks -
Quote
Also, The bible does say in 2Timothy 2:15 to study and examine the word of God- The reason for this is that there are a lot of errors in
the bible (kjv version) that have crept in because of translation errors and there is a need to examine everything in a bible verse
so it harmonises with the rest of the bible and there are no contradictions with other bible verses in the word of God
There are loop holes in twi teaching left right and centre which i should hace checked out instead of letting myself be brainwashed
Yes! definitely we have been through twi and have been thoroughly hood winked by the stinking maggots
The one thing I have learnt coming out of twi- is that I need to be carefully who i trust, which organization is "teaching" the word- to thoroughly
check them out before i give them a dime. And whatever that is taught- to ensure that it is rightly divided which means there are absolutely no
contradictions with the rest of the bible- And ask questions and if something smellsspiritually - get out of there
See I am not into interested into leading someone into a legalist sub culture as you call it
I am only interested in experiencing freedom as what Jesus said it will do if I obey and practise what God tells me
to do via His word. If people want this kind of freedom then only God can give then lets' study the bible to glean the truth
of what God is saying
John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free
So Rocky, I dont know what you want to achieve by talking to someone like me. It would be like a mexican talking to a chinese lol
Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
What do you want to get out of having a chat with me?
There are lots of other folks in gsc where you get along like a house on fire
This idea of wierwille’s is a slippery slope that errors in the text will lead to errors in doctrine. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We’ve had another poster on Grease Spot who presented a false dilemma, claiming that the KJV and other translations lack validity or authority in matters of faith. My response to that poster is here and I referred him to The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable by FF Bruce - and I basically challenged the poster to cite specific errors in the KJV or other translations/versions that would make a big difference in matters of faith. That poster never responded to any of my questions…why? I’ll tell you why. Because there are no errors or contradictions in the text that relate to the basic tenets of Christianity. wierwille never did demonstrate how a specific error in a text would lead to a significant change in any doctrines – other than trying to prove the Bible is infallible – i.e. error free. I think this type of argument was used to scare PFAL students into trusting wierwille’s twisted and incompetent efforts toward a systematic theology …Depending on one’s level of critical thinking and logic skills errors and contradictions may come into play when one tries to formulate a rational and coherent narrative of Christian doctrines.
The Bible is what it is – an ancient book – that lends itself very easily to many interpretations and theologies…I’ve already expressed my view of the Bible on this thread and elsewhere – and I must say, even I as a Christian agnostic have more respect for what the Bible says on matters of faith than wierwille ever did.
Waxit, for someone who often complains about the deceitfulness of wierwille as you do – I find it puzzling that you still use some of his flawed arguments to make your point. That leads me to believe you are still somewhat entangled in his type of faulty reasoning. I am trying to express this in the most respectful manner – because Grease Spot is not about running off people that may have some mental baggage. We all have that to some degree. Grease Spot is about helping folks to unpack the mental baggage and deal with it appropriately – and in my humble opinion, makes for a truly productive discussion
So anyway, to circle back to the topic – what are the actual errors or contradictions in the Bible - in any translation, version or text - that you think keep people from understanding the importance of keeping the Sabbath?
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
It's really interesting how Jesus Christ put the lawyer straight
From the above verse, it's clear that the lawyer's intention was not to learn from Jesus but to find an angle to trap Jesus with his words.
Look at the pretense and how the lawyer cleverly hides his "pride" and "superiority in spiritual matters" by saying, "teacher, what shall i do to inherit
eternl life" Of course Jesus already knows what's in the lawyer's heart and comes out with a true statement that's very uncomfortable with the
pharisee/scribe community "loving your neighbour as yourself" What the lawyer must have thought to himself- I thought I was number one-
"Loving my neighbour as myself- are you out of your mind Jesus"?
In real life It's beneath the dignity of pharisees and scribes to be even seen talking to the down and outers because of their "high uppity up social status"
So naturally- the lawyer got stung- Without actually saying anything directly, the Lord is exposing the lawyer's pride and hypocrisy.
Having been caught out, the lawyer thinks very quickly because it was a direct hit to the very heart of a pharisee's pride
Luke 10 v: 29- But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
The lawyer wasnt willing to let go because his pride has been severely smacked and he is still thinking- he can somehow
salvage his pride? Big mistake! He doesnt know he is tightening the noose around his own neck
Jesus goes into it even further with the story of a samaritan of all people (half casts who were hated by the jews the orthodox jews- pharisees in particular) helping the poor robbery victim ( a jew- if i am not mistaken) who was stripped of everything putting the "highly respected" levite and a priest to shame
(This must be like a knock out punch- down and out- out for the count of 10- no getting up)
So the Lord asks Him in:
vs 36- 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.(ouch-that hurts)
So as you said T-Bone, the location doesnt matter- your neighbour is who you come across that is in need of help
of course the pharisees and scribes congregate around their own
and twi "faithfuls" will normally "hang out" with "like minded believers" - all sounds very 'spiritual" so there is
a possibility that lawyer was hoping on the issue of whose is my neighbour that Jesus would say, "the person close to you"
and the lawyer could then agree with him whole heartedly(because the pharisees always scratched each others back and stamp
on every other dirt they see on the road) and say yes! Even though things didnt work out the way I wanted to trap Jesus
but at least I have got Jesus to admit what I wanted him to say.
Little did he know about the sucker punch that completely floored him- he had no answer to the Good Samaritan parable and was given marching orders
This is a lesson that all of us should take heed and to remember "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy"
because it's so easy to keep within own group group and look the other way when you see a need
Matthew 5:
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and Pharisees (callous and self seeking), ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is a really nice youtube video that I came across- Twinky, you might like this-although i doubt if you can imitate the texan drawwwll
being a dyed in the wool pommie lol
The lead singer gives his testimony towards the end of the song
Ya all take care now and keep safe
I know you will say that this is all twi stuff- twi can go and jump in the lake
I should have had the sense to take the above verses and tear twi apart - i didnt do it and paid the price spiritually
What I'm hearing you say is that you're more concerned with describing what you think I'm thinking instead of explaining what you want me/us to understand about your perspective/understanding of the Bible regarding keeping of the Sabbath.
Perhaps it would be constructive for you to try to answer the questions posed to you rather than erect walls in your mind to give yourself justification for not actually discussing the core issues you want me and other people to understand.
You talk about all of us being hoodwinked by wierwille/TWI in the past – but it appears that you still harbor one of wierwille’s most deceptive tricks -
The above remark from you is absolute horse manure coming out of your mouth
Why would you even want to engage in a conversation if you have such a bad impression about me.
I wrote to rocky and you butted in - and fair enough you wrote a kind posting- asking me some relevant questions
about sabbath and giving me bible verses that you think shows that sabbath has become insignificant
then you come out with an absolute trash of a statement
I was going to write back showing the flaws and your misunderstanding on the bible verses that you have pointed out
But now i am not so sure if i even want to reply to you and should ignore you and perhaps even get out of gsc all together
I even asked Rocky politely if he wanted to communicate with me
Can I ask you what you mean by me harboring one of wierville's most deceptive trick?
Secondly what do you mean by christian agnostic? I checked up on the internet and they say there is no such thing
The term christian and the term agnostic are incompatible.
It appears to me that you are being very deceptive in the way you are presenting yourself
You cannot have one foot in one camp and the other foot in another camp. It will never work in true christianity
And I am not sure if I am going to have a sane discussion
seeing you can be christian on one hand and you can jump into being an agnostic at any time you see fit.
Hmmm very deceptive
What I'm hearing you say is that you're more concerned with describing what you think I'm thinking instead of explaining what you want me/us to understand about your perspective/understanding of the Bible regarding keeping of the Sabbath.
Perhaps it would be constructive for you to try to answer the questions posed to you rather than erect walls in your mind to give yourself justification for not actually discussing the core issues you want me and other people to understand.
Fair enough Rocky. Truth is I can discuss core issues why people misunderstand and are not aware of how important sabbath is
If you see my previous posts, I have written previously to mark explaining why people reach the conclusion that sabbath is not important
Rather than throw a whole bunch of material at people- it is better to have an engaging conversation by asking and answering
questions directly without beating around the bush
Can I ask you- do you believe that the bible is the word of God than can be relied on and trusted once you understand it for yourself
Would you say you are a true christian believer? I just want to make sure it will be a productive discussion
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WordWolf
Waxit, a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether bi
Stayed Too Long
Waxit Do you have any plans to address: Romans 14: 5-6; Galatians 4: 9-10, Colossians 2:16? I didn’t quote the three versus because they have been brought to your attention numerous tim
WordWolf
None whatsoever. Waxit refuses to even consider whether the Sabbath is to be regarded or not. He assumes it is to be kept, period. The only point he'd consider is on which day it should be observed
Waxit
Are you genuinely interested in finding more about sabbath? Why it's the most misunderstood and most ignored commandment of God
I once thought the same way you did i.e legalistic (how wrong i was when I go by what what the bible says
Upon a deeper examination of the word of God (the bible)
I find that sabbath legalism is through the orhodox jews- with diverse rules- 1000's and complicated
which they introduced and tried to impose it on christian converts. The sabbath of the bible is not he sabbath of Judaism. Jews have their own man made laws codified in the talmud
I dont know if we can have a productive discussion
Can I ask you what category do you fall into? Are you a trintarian, gnostic, atheist??
I just want to see if it's possible to have a productive conversation- also can you stop calling me dude- personally i feel it's disrespectful
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WordWolf
Waxit,
a "productive discussion" must be both "productive" and a "discussion." To "discuss", each of us has to listen to the POV of the others, and probably get something out of it, whether big or small. We have to acknowledge that we are ALL trying to communicate, and are entitled to courtesy, and, at least here, a chance to be heard.
To know if it's possible to have a "productive conversation", we need to know if the participants are really willing to converse. If one or more are just interested in advertising, mudslinging, trolling, or insulting, then we can't really have any kind of "conversation." It really sounds like you're disinterested in anyone here- except as an AUDIENCE or as someone to AGREE WITH YOU automatically. We're often open to changing positions, but only if the other side makes more sense than our own, not just because someone insists they're right, or insists they know what God wants, or insists they're right because they have great conviction. If you really want to change minds here, you'd actually have to DISCUSS and CONVERSE.
Stop and ask yourself if you're really ready to do that, please.
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Rocky
You can ask. But I'd suggest that no matter how I answer, you might be inclined to put me in a box, in your mind, and dismiss me. I would ask YOU, what are you willing to bring to the table that would engender trust in your ability to engage in good faith.
Edited by RockyI didn't intend disrespect when addressing you as a dude... but I will cease using the term and try to be more respectful.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I hope that Waxit at least sees that the sixth commandment of murdering someone should be a higher crime than the fourth commandment of working on the Old Testament Sabbath day, which to him is Saturday. Waxit will see that if he wants to. However, does he want to see that?
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Waxit
The very fact that you engaged with me and reached out to have a productive discussion about sabbath/ sabbath legalsim is a good sign.
Unless you are an atheist- that does not believe in God or an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God
(when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible)
that it is inerrant in its accuracy and can be relied and trusted then I think we can have a productive discussion
But If you dont agree with the above and you are an agnostic, atheist then please let me know your spiritual standing/denomination
I am not going to dismiss you- please dont pre judge me- this is a mistake we all make
However, the Bible, Jesus Christ and God The Father must be central in our thinking in examining the truth of God's word
if we are to have a productive discussion
How I am going to engender trust and engage in good faith?
I have learnt from my past mistakes in gsc that the best way to engage in a meaningful dialogue is to love people/ understand where they are coming from
and not to resort to bible bashing, right off the bat only introduce bible verses when it is relevant and ask relevant questions and ensure that it does get answered
otherwise things can go all over the place and into something that's off the subject being discussed
My biggest mistake when i was in twi was i never questioned vpw-never checked his history or the twi cult and was deceived by his theatrics and I should have stayed away from the infected way households which prevented me from "thinking outside the way box"
People in gsc (ex way) have had this systematic brain washing ( manipulative and deceitful handling of the word)
shoved down their throats by the maggots at twi and for some people it may have taken a very long
time to recover (I am one of them) so I have got to be mindful of that.
I am responding to your post to me in regards to having a productive discussion on the issue of 7th day sabbath
Edited by WaxitRegards
Waxit
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Waxit
Hi Mark
I can understand where you are coming from in terms of one commandment being more important than the other
but that's not what God thinks.
The bible says that all the 10 commandments are equally important so that if you ignore one than it's as if are guilty of ignoring
all the rest.
So there is no such thing as a most important commandment or the least important commandment with God
They are all important and should not be ignored. We must understand who the commandments are coming from.
It's the God of the universe- all knowing, all powerful and all wise. am so thankful that He is loving and kind and
loves us. But one thing for sure- he cannot deny nor will he budge from the laws that he set up for our benefit and
for our all important relationship with God
So what does the bible say if we keep all the commandments except for one commandment?
This is what God says in:
James 2: 10-11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (1 John 3:4)
So conversely what James is saying, also applies to all the other commandments.
For instance if you keep the sixth commandment by not murdering another person and
yet do not keep the fourth commandment by ignoring the 7th day sabbath then you become a transgressor of the law
and are committing a sin. It's as if you are guilty of violating the whole 10 commandments. Refer above in vs 10: guilty of all
I know from a human perspective- we tend to grade our offences from highly offensive to mild
but please note what the bible is clearly saying. God went to great lengths to save us from our sins through the sacrificial lamb of God-
his only begotten Son- The Lord Jesus Christ and is a very loving God.
He does not want you to sin through ignorance of the 10 commandments.
The conseqences or wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death of a relationship with Him. Ths is what Adam & Eve experienced
when they disobeyed God by eating of the "fruit of the tree of good and evil"
God loved David very much but David paid very heavily for his one time adulterous affair with Batsheba.
The 7th day sabbath is ignored every week by most Christians. Do you honestly think that God will close his eyes on this?
Look at it this way, you are in 4 x 100 meters relay squad for the USA team in the Tokyo Olympics and prepared really well
and the finals of the 4 x 100 metres event begins
So bang goes the gun and your team gets to a fantastic start, the first and second runner do tremendously
well and the baton is passed to you with perfect timing and your team is leading by a "mile" and you take off
and run a brilliant race in record time and when you pass the baton to the fastest runner in the team, a tragedy happens
horror of horrors, the baton is not held on properly and gets dropped. There is a deathly silence in the whole stadium
Can you then tell the event officials- Look! we deserve to get the gold medal we did eveything in record time- what's one slip
of the baton -it was wet and it slipped- big deal- Do you think you will get the gold medal?
1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
There are many who will argue against this on gsc- guaranteed- at the end of the day this is God's word not mine
but please understand God loves you and wants to bless you in getting you to rest and devote your time to God on the 7th day -in prayer,meditation, study and other like minded believers. Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27)
However I do acknowledge that Jesus Christ said in Matt 22:37-40 that the greatest commandment is to love God with all thy heart,
mind and soul and alongside that to love your neighbour as yourself but He never said, you can ignore His laws & commandments
(Including the 7th day sabbath)
He said, "on the 2 greatest commandments hang all the law and the prophets"
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So what this means according to the bible is that the foundation or the whole purpose for obeying all the commandments of God (eg 10 commandments) hinges on/based on (1) loving God with all our hearts, mind and soul and (2) loving our neighbours as our own selves
The first 4 commandment relates to God- you keep because you love God with all your heart, mind and soul
The next 6 commandments relates to your neighbour (mankind) - you keep because you love people around you from a godly perspective and will not violate or harm your neighbours or dishonour your parents in any way
Regards
Waxit
Regards
Waxit
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Mark Sanguinetti
The context of verse James 3:4 is our human relationship with one another as seen in the verses that follow the verse Waxit quoted from,. Here is information from the Nelson Bible Dictionary about commandments 4 and 6.
Waxit you are really good at promoting your main and primary church doctrine which is the Sabbath day (Saturday). What church do you go to that promotes commandent four the most compared to other church doctrine?
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T-Bone
Waxit,
I believe we all can have a productive conversation if we all really listen, ask questions, be respectful and find common ground. And generally speaking, folks like to have their ideas validated – nothing wrong with wanting that.
I've found that really productive discussions involving theology, doctrine, theory and practice tend to go through a refining process – where everyone tries to get down to the nitty gritty of the issues – by focusing on the most important or fundamental aspects of the issues. There is often a give and take that goes on – concessions and compromises – and sometimes something significant is achieved. From my own experience on Grease Spot there’s been times: I’ve abandoned, modified, expanded, changed or simply validated my position on something; broadened my horizon; gained a deeper understanding of something by listening to someone else’s perspective on it.
Per your request and as a gesture of good faith, I will briefly state where I’m coming from – although I think one’s belief system is very complex and usually doesn’t lend itself to being conveniently pigeonholed – as you’ll see in the qualifiers I tack on to my position on stuff – and maybe you’ll find some common ground in all this.
I am somewhat of a Christian agnostic - I do follow the basic tenets of the Christian faith – but when it comes to God - I do believe in God but feel that there is so much more about the Creator that goes way beyond my understanding or any theology.
I do regard the Bible as the Word of God. Even though it has obvious errors and contradictions, especially in some historical or scientific matters – However, I believe any problems are few and far between in matters of faith – the basic tenets of Christianity – such as the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ and all that accomplished…loving God…loving my neighbor as myself…sin, repentance, forgiveness, etc...and anyway "technically" speaking my faith is placed in a person (Jesus Christ ) rather than in a book. But if anything the Bible is certainly one of the means of developing my relationship with Jesus Christ.
Also I wanted to be honest and upfront with you about your statement “an agnostic that doesnt regard the bible as the word of God when rightly divided with no contradictions in other parts of the bible”…”Rightly divided” is an interesting and unusual KJV phrase. I think it has been co-opted by various groups – becoming something of a catchphrase that goes well beyond the original idea that it was intended to convey. For some folks “rightly divided” seems to function as loaded language to persuade folks that their interpretation of the Bible or a particular passage is the correct and only valid explanation…Just wanted to let everyone know when I read “rightly divided” in a post, I automatically translate it to “in my opinion the correct interpretation of the passage is as follows…” . Hopefully some sound principles of interpretation were involved in the process…for more on principles of interpretation see Wikipedia Hermeneutics and Stanford Ency. of Philosophy: Hermeneutics and regarding KJV phrase "rightly dividing" see What did Paul mean by rightly dividing for an interesting read.
Waxit,
hopefully we all can look past what folks say regarding their own beliefs – not dismissing or pre-judging them. That will encourage folks to think outside their own theological box – and that will truly be a productive discussion.
== == ==
Having said all that – I want to address your other post.
Waxit,
I agree that the basis, foundation…the reason behind obeying the law and the prophets should always be doing it out of love for God and neighbor. But I don’t see why you assume that means the command to keep the Sabbath is still in effect. You may be technically correct in claiming Jesus ".. never said, you can ignore His laws & commandments (Including the 7th day sabbath)"...But I don't think he needed to say that, because he is obviously explaining a "law" that supersedes all that...the law of love...The way Jesus explained the law in Matthew 22 makes me think of an attorney in the courtroom interpreting what is the intent of the law...This "law" of love is obviously a ruling factor in Romans 14 regarding how one should behave around others who may have different convictions than we do...the intent of the law has always been to engender love.
Matter of fact there are several passages in the epistles that echo that simple summation in Matthew 22 of “love thy neighbor” and actually do not mention any specific laws that we are obliged to keep – see Rom. 13: 8, 9; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8…it seems to me "the law" has always been about love. Love is the common denominator of anything God has asked of believers.
so if a verse like Galatians 5:14 says “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” and “fulfilled” means satisfied, brought to completion or accomplished – so I was wondering
why do you think Christians are duty-bound - morally or legally obliged to keep the Sabbath?
Edited by T-Boneout-of-the-box revision solutions
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Stayed Too Long
Waxit
These three verses just don’t go away and you just keep ignoring them.
Are you a glutton for punishment? If you check prior postings, you will notice that you have convinced no one of your atgument concerning the Sabbath. For weeks you have been throwing out the same arguments and getting the same negative responses.
“Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.” Have you heard that one before?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Another scripture that Waxit quoted to try to make his point of the importance of the Old Testament law Sabbath day was James 2:10-11. James was an Israelite that started a church in Jerusalem. Since he was in the capital city of Israel while being raised as an Israelite, James advocated and respected the Old Testament law. However, he did not use this as a weapon against Gentiles, and Paul even thought that James endorsed his ministry to the Gentiles according to Galatians 2:1-10. Galatians 2:9-10
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. NIV
Again the context of James 2:10-11 is our human relationship with one another. This chapter only mentions wrong actions of hatred among people for example murder in verse 11.
However, there was no reason for Abraham to kill or sacrifice his son Isaac from verse 21. To me this is a clear example of things improving under Jesus Christ. Fortunately, God after testing his faith before the Old Testament law, got him to not kill Isaac his son. Also after thinking about this, this deals with the future sacrifice of Jesus Christ as payment for the imperfection or sin nature of humanity. Instead of the sacrifice of Isaac, the son of Abraham. This can or should be seen as the prophetic future sacrifice of God's son Jesus Christ instead of the sacrifice of Abraham's son Isaac or any other imperfect human.
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Twinky
A bit
maybe, but this chapter of James was discussed in my church's talk (sermon) on Sunday last. Simon, who gives the talk, definitely puts his actions into what his mouth says. The reading (by one of the children in the congregation) starts at about 39:15, and the talk is about 10 mins, less than 15, and full of challenges to line up our lives better.
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Waxit
Mark
Please do not misunderstand me and I have said this many times so hopefully you will change your perception of me in regards to sabbath promotion
I am not saying that 7th day sabbath keeping is the be all and end all. Far from it-
I repeat, the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart ,mind and soul and next to it is to love your neighbour as yourself
Why do I then focus on sabbath keeping?
Because this is the most misunderstood commandment of God and largely ignored by christians worldwide.
Romans and Galatians are two of the most difficult books to understand and the kjv translators have confused a lot
of people by not making the distinction between "works of law" i.e traditions of men - as in jewish man made laws -
which has nothing to do with God's laws and commandments (includes the 10 commandments)
If you compare In the original greek (greek interlinear) whenever "works of law" (traditions of man)- greek "nomou" or the works of the law (God's laws and commandments) "tou nomou"
with what it's saying in the kjv, you will see that kjv translators have messed it up by plastering two thre letter words "the" everywhere it states "works of law" (traditions of men)
so now they have made "works of law" (traditions of men) into "the works of the law" (God's laws or commandments ) and so
everyone now thinks that you dont have to keep God's laws and commandments wheres what the bible is saying (if you look in the original greek),
that you dont have to keep 'works' of law" -traditions of men but you keep God's laws and commandments (All of the 10 commandments)
So this misunderstanding which is brought about by kjv translators causes people to excuse themselves from sabbath keeping because they understand
it as something unnecessary and various reasons are given based on this misunderstanding of "works of law" (tmans traditions) and "the works of the law" (God's laws)
Sabbath keeping becomes the easiest target to ignore based on wrong understanding of the verses relating to law in Romans and Galatians
Romans 2:15 is the only verse thats correctly translated as "the works of the law' (God's laws) in the bible
When it comes to the 10 commandments, people readily acknowledge that stealing, lying and adultery is sin but somehow they wriggle out of the sabbath- that's absurd come to think of it
So the question is why only wriggle out of sabbath keeping why not continue to steal, kill and murder and commit adultery- Doesnt make sense does it?
So this is serious- sabbath keeping must be viewed with the same importance as not stealing, not lying, not tworshipping other Gods etc ( today in the real world a lot of people worship themselves without realising it)
I repeat:
The reason why we keep the first 4 commandments of God should be because we love God with all our heart, mind and soul
The reason why we keep the next 6 commandments iof God should be because we love our neighbours/parents (mankind) as ourselves
Whats one of the ways God knows we love Him:
John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments (not traditions of men)
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Rocky
Waxit, what you label "agnostic" above... I'm not agnostic. But I'm also not fundamentalist. I view the Bible as a book of stories inspired by God, rather than a rule book that should be parsed and then used on which to base a legalistic subculture.
Edited by RockyWill you still refrain from dismissing me?
"love people/understand where they are coming from" sounds like you're describing a willingness to genuinely listen and consider what those responding to you are saying. I hope that's true.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Waxit, do you see that because the book of Revelation has mostly figurative and not literal explanations, that this writing is much more challenging to understand than the epistles (letters) of Romans and Galatians? Because of the figurative and not literal method of teaching used in the book of Revelation, this may be or is the most misunderstood with differences of views among people in the entire bible. Paul wrote his epistles much more clearly than John did in the book of Revelation. However, I was still able to write an article recently on end times through Jesus Christ with some of it explaining the symbolically written last four chapters of the book of Revelation. For example, when John got visions of 12 gates at the entrance to what was figuratively called the “New Jerusalem”. Yes, “New Jerusalem” would be a favorable explanation with the new heaven and earth for the Jews, but not necessarily for the Gentiles who had a different capital city than Jerusalem. Paul simply wrote his epistles for the Gentiles who were not part of the nation of Israel with the ten commandments. Instead as nations, for example the ancient Greek and Roman, they had different laws, cultures and traditions than the Israelite's. There was no need to mention and promote the day of Sabbath for them. So instead Paul promoted and explained the savior of both the Jews and Gentiles, who is Jesus Christ.
You at least see that the greatest commandment is to love God above all and love your neighbor as yourself. As far as reading the bible, there is different biblical versions that were written in updated English for more clear understanding. For example, the New International Version which is less difficult to understand now than the King James Version which was written in the 1500s.
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T-Bone
Hey all, this is a follow up to my previous post – I had some other ideas about Jesus’ remarks on the two great commandments in Matthew 22… after listening to Twinky’s post from her church’s streaming service – a kid, Lucas reading from James 2: 14 - 26 and Simon’s talk on faith in word and deed – I felt my other ideas were now crystalized enough to try and articulate them. By the way, thanks for that, Twinky – an incredible sermon to say the least! One of the things that really stood out was his story of a vicar who was so very busy – a homeless lady came up to him desperately pleading for help; the busy vicar kindly dismissed her - saying he was too busy but promised he would pray for her. The homeless lady then wrote a poem and gave it to the local shelter officer. What really got to me was the aloofness sometimes found in folks who are too busy in their religious duties…parts of the poem: “I was hungry and you formed a humanities group to discuss my hunger…I was sick and you knelt and thanked God for your health…I was lonely and you left me alone to pray for me…” another stunning line was what someone said to Simon after a violent encounter while Simon and others were helping some street kids in Brazil – the person said to Simon “pity cries and then goes away – but compassion stays.” great stuff – thanks again for that, Twinky – I think Simon is truly a great servant for Christ!!!
So getting back to some things I thought of while drafting my previous post – about Matthew 22, Jesus summing up the law and the prophets with just two great commandments – the first is to love God (v. 37) and the second – Jesus said is LIKE the first – love your neighbor as yourself (v. 39). A word stuck out to me – “And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” It appears that Jesus is drawing some similarity between the first command love God and the second command to love your neighbor as yourself.
That little word “like” conveys the idea that the two commandments have the same characteristics, qualities or importance…or they are just very similar to each other. What made it even more intriguing to me was the obvious omission of mentioning the first great commandment to love God in the epistles that I referenced in my previous post, calling attention to only the second great commandment – to love your neighbor as yourself (Rom. 13: 8, 9; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8 ). Now I don’t know what to make of that and I’m just thinking out loud here…
…I’m wondering if the reason those verses focused on only the second commandment is because of the tendency we have to get so wrapped up in “our relationship with God” and our service/devotion to God we forget about our connection with others…I can still remember with crystal clarity, a major breakthrough in realizing the importance of the second command to love my neighbor as myself. It happened a few months after I left TWI and was in the early stages of shedding that prideful elitist mindset. I was in a supermarket by myself - and as I was nonchalantly doing some people watching – a thought stabbed me right in the heart – I am no better than anyone else here…I began crying and then had to stifle my emotions so I could continue shopping and check out at the register. That was just one of the many watershed moments I’ve had in casting off some cultic attitudes…
…Anyway – a few passages come to mind…in the gospel of Luke, a lawyer summed up the requirements of the law exactly as Jesus had done in Matthew 22:
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”…Luke 10: 25 – 37 ESV
What I find so interesting (and self-incriminating
) in the Luke account is how Jesus exposed and rebuked the cancerous self-righteous attitude (note v.29, the lawyer “desiring to justify himself”) found in some groups who think they are totally correct or morally superior when compared to others. I am fascinated by Jesus reversing the lawyer’s original question in v. 29 “who is my neighbor?”. What I’ve garnered from some commentaries and The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is that the prevailing opinion among Pharisees and scribes (“scribes” and “lawyers” are interchangeable in the Gospels – “Scribes had knowledge of the law and could draft legal documents contracts for marriage, divorce, loans, inheritance, mortgages, the sale of land, and the like). Every village had at least one scribe.” From Britannica: Scribes and Pharisees ) was that one’s neighbors were the righteous ones – i.e. part of their religious group. Similar to the prevailing opinion in TWI – with ideas like they’re the only group who has more of the “rightly-divided Word” than anyone else and unless you are born again and now are composed of body, soul and spirit then you are just an empty floating by…So I think it might be safe to say the lawyer more or less assumed it was up to others to prove themselves worthy enough to be his neighbor. Jesus’ reversal makes it clear that the lawyer must prove himself to be a good neighbor by tending to someone in need who has crossed his path.
In a similar vein, the Sermon on the Mount stresses the importance of loving your neighbor – most notably in Matthew 5: 23, 24, “So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. “… Jesus more or less puts reconciliation with a brother as a higher priority over devotion and worship …and in Matthew 7: 12 where Jesus talks about the golden rule “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” Notice once again how Jesus underscores the ethical principle of “love your neighbor as yourself” in the law and the prophets.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Twinky
That is a very powerful poem at the start of Simon's talk, isn't it!
Yes. Get out there and DO - don't just talk (or think) about doing.
Love this, T-Bone:
… the lawyer and every single one of us.
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Mark Sanguinetti
As mentioned by T-bone, good points about the word "like" showing that both involving love as taught by Jesus Christ, have the same characteristics. And this is why Paul did not need to mention the first of the two regarding love in the following verses from Romans. Waxit writes well and has a lot of energy in promoting his favorite doctrine now, Sabbath day. However, with Waxit being able to read and write, it is recommended that he not close his eyes when reading the less difficult to read epistle of Romans and these verses from the New International Version. And it may be sad to him that it does not mention the Sabbath Day.
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Rocky
Btw, in case you read or even just saw the thread I started in the "questioning faith" forum, I'm reading a book written by former fundamentalist Frank Schaeffer by that title, Why I am an Atheist who Believes in God.
To me, it's a fascinating book that explores paradoxes of Christianity.
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Waxit
I am not going to dismiss you but wondering if it's going to be productive and if it's worth your time
talking to someone who is a serious christian and considers the bible (the word of God) as a loving guide inspired by God
The bible is like a personal letter from God to me not like a story book
You are better off speaking to someone who is laid back and get along really well and will learn more because you see eye to eye
-I hope you can see that are differences to your casual approach to
the bible ans compared to my belief that it is the infallible word of God and inerrant in its accuracy and can be 100% relied and
trusted on the all important issue of where we are going to spend eternity
2 Peter 1:3
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Jesus said, "The words that i speak to you are spirit and they are life" John 6:63
I believe the bible is God's own guidance book on how to live like Jesus Christ that will enable Him (God) to transform
us (serious christians) into the image of His dear Son Jesus Christ
2 Peter 2:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I know you will say that this is all twi stuff- twi can go and jump in the lake
I should have had the sense to take the above verses and tear twi apart - i didnt do it and paid the price spiritually
Also, The bible does say in 2Timothy 2:15 to study and examine the word of God- The reason for this is that there are a lot of errors in
the bible (kjv version) that have crept in because of translation errors and there is a need to examine everything in a bible verse
so it harmonises with the rest of the bible and there are no contradictions with other bible verses in the word of God
There are loop holes in twi teaching left right and centre which i should hace checked out instead of letting myself be brainwashed
Yes! definitely we have been through twi and have been thoroughly hood winked by the stinking maggots
The one thing I have learnt coming out of twi- is that I need to be carefully who i trust, which organization is "teaching" the word- to thoroughly
check them out before i give them a dime.
And whatever that is taught- to ensure that it is rightly divided which means there are absolutely no
contradictions with the rest of the bible- And ask questions and if something smellsspiritually - get out of there
See I am not into interested into leading someone into a legalist sub culture as you call it
I am only interested in experiencing freedom as what Jesus said it will do if I obey and practise what God tells me
to do via His word. If people want this kind of freedom then only God can give then lets' study the bible to glean the truth
of what God is saying
John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free
So Rocky, I dont know what you want to achieve by talking to someone like me. It would be like a mexican talking to a chinese lol
Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
What do you want to get out of having a chat with me?
There are lots of other folks in gsc where you get along like a house on fire
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T-Bone
Hi Waxit,
I am curious - it seems to me that it’s worth your time to keep returning to the same topical discussion (whether here or on the other thread you started) – so there must be something “productive” going on…I mean, you must be getting something out of it…why else would you continue to post even though others have expressed different attitudes than yours and don’t agree with your idea of the importance of keeping the Sabbath. Personally, I always enjoy discussions when there’s a wide variety of a viewpoints.
Why are you ignoring certain posters who have asked you direct questions?
Is your avoidance out of frustration or fear or something else?
You talk about all of us being hoodwinked by wierwille/TWI in the past – but it appears that you still harbor one of wierwille’s most deceptive tricks -
This idea of wierwille’s is a slippery slope that errors in the text will lead to errors in doctrine. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We’ve had another poster on Grease Spot who presented a false dilemma, claiming that the KJV and other translations lack validity or authority in matters of faith. My response to that poster is here and I referred him to The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable by FF Bruce - and I basically challenged the poster to cite specific errors in the KJV or other translations/versions that would make a big difference in matters of faith. That poster never responded to any of my questions…why? I’ll tell you why. Because there are no errors or contradictions in the text that relate to the basic tenets of Christianity. wierwille never did demonstrate how a specific error in a text would lead to a significant change in any doctrines – other than trying to prove the Bible is infallible – i.e. error free. I think this type of argument was used to scare PFAL students into trusting wierwille’s twisted and incompetent efforts toward a systematic theology …Depending on one’s level of critical thinking and logic skills errors and contradictions may come into play when one tries to formulate a rational and coherent narrative of Christian doctrines.
The Bible is what it is – an ancient book – that lends itself very easily to many interpretations and theologies…I’ve already expressed my view of the Bible on this thread and elsewhere – and I must say, even I as a Christian agnostic have more respect for what the Bible says on matters of faith than wierwille ever did.
Waxit, for someone who often complains about the deceitfulness of wierwille as you do – I find it puzzling that you still use some of his flawed arguments to make your point. That leads me to believe you are still somewhat entangled in his type of faulty reasoning. I am trying to express this in the most respectful manner – because Grease Spot is not about running off people that may have some mental baggage. We all have that to some degree. Grease Spot is about helping folks to unpack the mental baggage and deal with it appropriately – and in my humble opinion, makes for a truly productive discussion
So anyway, to circle back to the topic – what are the actual errors or contradictions in the Bible - in any translation, version or text - that you think keep people from understanding the importance of keeping the Sabbath?
Edited by T-Boneformatting and bunch of editing
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Waxit
It's really interesting how Jesus Christ put the lawyer straight
From the above verse, it's clear that the lawyer's intention was not to learn from Jesus but to find an angle to trap Jesus with his words.
Look at the pretense and how the lawyer cleverly hides his "pride" and "superiority in spiritual matters" by saying, "teacher, what shall i do to inherit
eternl life" Of course Jesus already knows what's in the lawyer's heart and comes out with a true statement that's very uncomfortable with the
pharisee/scribe community "loving your neighbour as yourself" What the lawyer must have thought to himself- I thought I was number one-
"Loving my neighbour as myself- are you out of your mind Jesus"?
In real life It's beneath the dignity of pharisees and scribes to be even seen talking to the down and outers because of their "high uppity up social status"
So naturally- the lawyer got stung- Without actually saying anything directly, the Lord is exposing the lawyer's pride and hypocrisy.
Having been caught out, the lawyer thinks very quickly because it was a direct hit to the very heart of a pharisee's pride
Luke 10 v: 29- But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
The lawyer wasnt willing to let go because his pride has been severely smacked and he is still thinking- he can somehow
salvage his pride? Big mistake! He doesnt know he is tightening the noose around his own neck
Jesus goes into it even further with the story of a samaritan of all people (half casts who were hated by the jews the orthodox jews- pharisees in particular) helping the poor robbery victim ( a jew- if i am not mistaken) who was stripped of everything putting the "highly respected" levite and a priest to shame
(This must be like a knock out punch- down and out- out for the count of 10- no getting up)
So the Lord asks Him in:
vs 36- 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.(ouch-that hurts)
So as you said T-Bone, the location doesnt matter- your neighbour is who you come across that is in need of help
of course the pharisees and scribes congregate around their own
and twi "faithfuls" will normally "hang out" with "like minded believers" - all sounds very 'spiritual" so there is
a possibility that lawyer was hoping on the issue of whose is my neighbour that Jesus would say, "the person close to you"
and the lawyer could then agree with him whole heartedly(because the pharisees always scratched each others back and stamp
on every other dirt they see on the road) and say yes! Even though things didnt work out the way I wanted to trap Jesus
but at least I have got Jesus to admit what I wanted him to say.
Little did he know about the sucker punch that completely floored him- he had no answer to the Good Samaritan parable and was given marching orders
This is a lesson that all of us should take heed and to remember "Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy"
because it's so easy to keep within own group group and look the other way when you see a need
Matthew 5:
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and Pharisees (callous and self seeking), ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is a really nice youtube video that I came across- Twinky, you might like this-although i doubt if you can imitate the texan drawwwll
being a dyed in the wool pommie lol
The lead singer gives his testimony towards the end of the song
Ya all take care now and keep safe
Regards
Waxit
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Rocky
What I'm hearing you say is that you're more concerned with describing what you think I'm thinking instead of explaining what you want me/us to understand about your perspective/understanding of the Bible regarding keeping of the Sabbath.
Perhaps it would be constructive for you to try to answer the questions posed to you rather than erect walls in your mind to give yourself justification for not actually discussing the core issues you want me and other people to understand.
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Waxit
The above remark from you is absolute horse manure coming out of your mouth
Why would you even want to engage in a conversation if you have such a bad impression about me.
I wrote to rocky and you butted in - and fair enough you wrote a kind posting- asking me some relevant questions
about sabbath and giving me bible verses that you think shows that sabbath has become insignificant
then you come out with an absolute trash of a statement
I was going to write back showing the flaws and your misunderstanding on the bible verses that you have pointed out
But now i am not so sure if i even want to reply to you and should ignore you and perhaps even get out of gsc all together
I even asked Rocky politely if he wanted to communicate with me
Can I ask you what you mean by me harboring one of wierville's most deceptive trick?
Secondly what do you mean by christian agnostic? I checked up on the internet and they say there is no such thing
The term christian and the term agnostic are incompatible.
It appears to me that you are being very deceptive in the way you are presenting yourself
You cannot have one foot in one camp and the other foot in another camp. It will never work in true christianity
And I am not sure if I am going to have a sane discussion
seeing you can be christian on one hand and you can jump into being an agnostic at any time you see fit.
Hmmm very deceptive
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Waxit
Fair enough Rocky. Truth is I can discuss core issues why people misunderstand and are not aware of how important sabbath is
Edited by WaxitIf you see my previous posts, I have written previously to mark explaining why people reach the conclusion that sabbath is not important
Rather than throw a whole bunch of material at people- it is better to have an engaging conversation by asking and answering
questions directly without beating around the bush
Can I ask you- do you believe that the bible is the word of God than can be relied on and trusted once you understand it for yourself
Would you say you are a true christian believer? I just want to make sure it will be a productive discussion
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