This is the stuff people who didn't participate in the various in-residence programs don't understand. If you were Joe B. Lever, attending a local twig in Hoopyville, U.S.A., you went home when fellowship was over.Period. Done. Rinse and repeat when it's time for the next fellowship meeting. If you were in one of these programs, you were already home. It was 24 hours a day, no clocking in and clocking out.
This is the stuff people who didn't participate in the various in-residence programs don't understand. If you were Joe B. Lever, attending a local twig in Hoopyville, U.S.A., you went home when fellowship was over.Period. Done. Rinse and repeat when it's time for the next fellowship meeting. If you were in one of these programs, you were already home. It was 24 hours a day, no clocking in and clocking out.
Yup - and the indoctrination program was designed to “clean your clock”....I.e. a mental and physical beating!
The indoctrination program funneled you towards what they termed as greater levels of "commitment", which equated to greater levels of control over your life you signed away.
Yup - and the indoctrination program was designed to “clean your clock”....I.e. a mental and physical beating!
All of this was policy-driven.......
One of the driving policies of the Corps Program: To become a great leader you must be an obedient follower (paraphrased). Obedience to leadership (....i.e. spiritual marine corps....) was tantamount to one's learning how to obey God's voice, holy spirit within. If you couldn't "listen, remember and obey" the corps leaders, how could you possibly be entrusted when God spoke revelation to you and have the discipline to obey His instructions? Every campus had its structure of obedience rules. The Indiana campus corps were instructed to always have a wooden spoon in their back pocket......to remind the kids, any one who needed reproof, who held authority. At LEAD, the final report of one's "spiritual test in the wilderness" was wholly scripted from the corps policy of "obedience."
The underlying fault lines of the corps training.........were mapped by a skewering of the scriptures. Wierwille's incompetence was NOT the problem: his agenda and policy-driven mandates underscored the cumulative effect of hardened, inept corps grads that were later placed in leadership positions. Everything wrong that was instituted in the corps program personified the pathologies of victor paul wierwille.
The rise and fall of twi........was greatly hastened by the corps program.
One of the driving policies of the Corps Program: To become a great leader you must be an obedient follower (paraphrased). Obedience to leadership (....i.e. spiritual marine corps....) was tantamount to one's learning how to obey God's voice, holy spirit within. If you couldn't "listen, remember and obey" the corps leaders, how could you possibly be entrusted when God spoke revelation to you and have the discipline to obey His instructions? Every campus had its structure of obedience rules. The Indiana campus corps were instructed to always have a wooden spoon in their back pocket......to remind the kids, any one who needed reproof, who held authority. At LEAD, the final report of one's "spiritual test in the wilderness" was wholly scripted from the corps policy of "obedience."
The underlying fault lines of the corps training.........were mapped by a skewering of the scriptures. Wierwille's incompetence was NOT the problem: his agenda and policy-driven mandates underscored the cumulative effect of hardened, inept corps grads that were later placed in leadership positions. Everything wrong that was instituted in the corps program personified the pathologies of victor paul wierwille.
The rise and fall of twi........was greatly hastened by the corps program.
Great points, Skyrider !
Yeah wierwille may have been incompetent in a lot of things…but I think he was adept at harnessing…corralling…looking for the right word - - maybe hijacking the goals, skills, and talents of others via an indoctrination program…and there is something to be said for wierwille’s quote in Lifelines – nothing happens without leadership - - in light of that I found an interesting article on leadership - - Can Bad People be Good Leaders ?
an excerpt from the article:
“Most definitions of leadership include two elements. Leadership involves both getting people to work together and the pursuit of some common purpose or goal. Superficial responses to the question in the title of this column respond by evaluating only the purpose. Mother Teresa was a good leader; Hitler was a bad leader. This judgement has nothing to do with our knowledge or evaluation of their leadership styles. Rather, it is a moral judgement of the goals they pursued.
But beyond evaluating the purpose, we need to understand the process of leadership. Even in the pursuit of objectives we agree are worthwhile, we know that there can be a difference significant enough between Leader A and Leader B to warrant moral distinctions. Success is part of the equation. Machiavelli equated good leadership with strong leadership, rationalizing any casualties in the process with a type of ends-justifying-the-means philosophy. Good leadership involves something more than the successful achievement of worthwhile ends. The how of leadership is a factor in the equation.”
The citadel of good-hearted Christians was the one that strengthened and fortified the bonds of love, giving and support in the early days of twi. They believed in serving God and their fellow man with kindness and genuine concern. And, daily meditation in the Scriptures along with wholesome living were their guiding light. You found them serving at hq in the kitchen, on grounds and sometimes in the offices. Men and women like Milford and Betty Bowen, George and Bernita Jess or J. Fred Wilson.
The citadel of the opportunists, yes-men and the cunning. Wierwille, commander-of-the-corps-sycophants, found solace and narcissistic pleasure in this citadel. The implementation of the corps program gave wierwille escalating power.....as this training was based on strict obedience to leadership, not scriptures. Obedience was the alpha and omega of the corps indoctrination program. It was a cunning move of deception within the ranks.......one that removed and displaced the "Christian element" from headquarters proper and filtered out on the field. The *way tree* was its marketing but the true reality was one of building a power base of control over others.
Long gone was............A Mighty Fortress is Our God.
The citadel of good-hearted Christians was the one that strengthened and fortified the bonds of love, giving and support in the early days of twi. They believed in serving God and their fellow man with kindness and genuine concern. And, daily meditation in the Scriptures along with wholesome living were their guiding light. You found them serving at hq in the kitchen, on grounds and sometimes in the offices. Men and women like Milford and Betty Bowen, George and Bernita Jess or J. Fred Wilson.
The citadel of the opportunists, yes-men and the cunning. Wierwille, commander-of-the-corps-sycophants, found solace and narcissistic pleasure in this citadel. The implementation of the corps program gave wierwille escalating power.....as this training was based on strict obedience to leadership, not scriptures. Obedience was the alpha and omega of the corps indoctrination program. It was a cunning move of deception within the ranks.......one that removed and displaced the "Christian element" from headquarters proper and filtered out on the field. The *way tree* was its marketing but the true reality was one of building a power base of control over others.
Long gone was............A Mighty Fortress is Our God.
Hey sky - you know I've been thinking for a while about the mixture of people in the Way throughout the years. I'm sure percentages probably fluctuated, but from my experience over time I've always seen a few categories:
1. Good pure-hearted Christians - the laity mostly.
2. Laity Leadership - a mixed bag. Some mushrooms and opportunists. Some genuine pure hearted Christians.
3. Corps - hate to say but mostly problematic. some good hearted just like other categories. Modeled after Marines (i.e. unspoken expected commitment levels and following of instructions) the Way Corps were mostly trained to kiss behind upwards and take frustrations out on those under authority downwards. That was what was modeled. Like the Freemasons (LOL) they had secret initiations, behavior, phrases. sorry that came into play on another thread LOL. the older ones initiate the younger ones in the Freemason rites - all the way up to the Grand Poobah of the Board of Directors. Councils of Pharisees. After reading up on Greasespot some of those Councils involved illegal and immoral activity. I personally only experienced the people playing politics stuff, not the darker tales when I was in. As I've read mostly in court documents because those who should have told me lied about it, there was an "initiated inner circle" that I never knew about. I'm sure that is only one of many.
Where is or was God?
The answer has to be in the individual hearts. I think the pure essence of God being love has to mean very specific individually, as well as if you are talking about collectively it has to be from the perspective of a whole body of Christ. The whole teaching of "household of God" is a doctrine of devils. I mean there's this group that my mom can't be in because she doesn't tithe to the Way. Thus she will be treated as slightly less than the homeless guy coming to fellowship. God or man?
I mean dear lord baby Jesus on a pogo stick how does that make any d@mn sense at all?
It makes about as much sense as Sharia law telling them to cut off little girls sex organs and then subject them to rape from relatives as part of God's idea of culture.
So when you get man's mixture of law and organization in in my opinion you get such extreme anomalies like the Way we see here. So much exploitation. So little God.
Hey sky - you know I've been thinking for a while about the mixture of people in the Way throughout the years. I'm sure percentages probably fluctuated, but from my experience over time I've always seen a few categories:
1. Good pure-hearted Christians - the laity mostly.
2. Laity Leadership - a mixed bag. Some mushrooms and opportunists. Some genuine pure hearted Christians.
3. Corps - hate to say but mostly problematic. some good hearted just like other categories. Modeled after Marines (i.e. unspoken expected commitment levels and following of instructions) the Way Corps were mostly trained to kiss behind upwards and take frustrations out on those under authority downwards. That was what was modeled. Like the Freemasons (LOL) they had secret initiations, behavior, phrases. sorry that came into play on another thread LOL. the older ones initiate the younger ones in the Freemason rites - all the way up to the Grand Poobah of the Board of Directors. Councils of Pharisees. After reading up on Greasespot some of those Councils involved illegal and immoral activity. I personally only experienced the people playing politics stuff, not the darker tales when I was in. As I've read mostly in court documents because those who should have told me lied about it, there was an "initiated inner circle" that I never knew about. I'm sure that is only one of many.
Where is or was God?
.......snip
chockfull........yeah, a mixture of people and problematic corps recruits.
You know, everything begins and ends with leadership. I sometimes remind myself that the Old Testament gives vivid illustrations and documentation of the kings of old. When a king did right in the sight of God........the people flourished. When a king did evil in the sight of God.......the kingdom went into bondage.
Even though God blessed many of us, individually, in spite of twi and its leadership.........it succumbed to bondage.
The legalistic mandates, the trappings of man-made policies and the skewering of scripture took its toll. Those who had the means, and wits, to exit early.......did. In fact, looking back......I often found that the most independent and strong-minded people left FIRST. They did not allow themselves to be cornered.......socially, psychologically or doctrinally. So often, those who were Area Coordinators during in-residence........EXITED.
Within two years after my 9th corps graduation..........I would safely estimate that about 60-70 of those 9th corps were gone.
Just like the assembling of that way orchestra........so much talent...........then, a couple of years later...........poof, its gone.
"but...but...but...we're replicating the first century church."
ummmm...ok...soooo...they lived in communes in the first century?
After the events of Pentecost (Acts 2), I think so. Socialism works great until you run out of other people's monies. Which is also why they ended up so broke. No joke. (Rom.15:26.)
So why did they do it? Simply because they were convinced that once all of Israel recognized the error of their ways and accepted Christ as their Messiah, he would return from the heavens (to Jerusalem) and restore the kingdom after a relatively short period of tribulation. (The time of Jacob's trouble.) So, they prepared... by selling their homes and pooling their resources. Worked just fine... until the money ran out.
The attempt to "replicate" the first century church (i.e., Acts 2:4ff) was one helluva mistake, and a gross misunderstanding of when the church of the body of Christ actually first began. (take a closer look at the meaning of that word "chief" in 1 Tim.1:15.)
the Way Corps were mostly trained to kiss behind upwards and take frustrations out on those under authority downwards. That was what was modeled.
Well, I'm not convinced of that "mostly trained" part of your statement. But, apply it to the WC's greatly oversized "how great thou art" ego development program, and yeah - I'm all in. (Been there, done that. Damaged right along with the rest of y'alls...)
After the events of Pentecost (Acts 2), I think so. Socialism works great until you run out of other people's monies. Which is also why they ended up so broke. No joke. (Rom.15:26.)
So why did they do it? Simply because they were convinced that once all of Israel recognized the error of their ways and accepted Christ as their Messiah, he would return from the heavens (to Jerusalem) and restore the kingdom after a relatively short period of tribulation. (The time of Jacob's trouble.) So, they prepared... by selling their homes and pooling their resources. Worked just fine... until the money ran out.
The attempt to "replicate" the first century church (i.e., Acts 2:4ff) was one helluva mistake, and a gross misunderstanding of when the church of the body of Christ actually first began. (take a closer look at the meaning of that word "chief" in 1 Tim.1:15.)
The topic is communalism, not socialism. I could easily rebut your editorial comments on economics but that wouldn't be proper for this website.
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waysider
"but...but...but...we're replicating the first century church."
ummmm...ok...soooo...they lived in communes in the first century?
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skyrider
Commune of Enablers............
Wierwille dies..............and the cult movement is scattered to the wind.
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skyrider
Waysider............LOL.
Yeah, I get the sarcasm.......but as we both know, those communes, to survive and thrive, were NOT indoctrination centers.
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waysider
This is the stuff people who didn't participate in the various in-residence programs don't understand. If you were Joe B. Lever, attending a local twig in Hoopyville, U.S.A., you went home when fellowship was over.Period. Done. Rinse and repeat when it's time for the next fellowship meeting. If you were in one of these programs, you were already home. It was 24 hours a day, no clocking in and clocking out.
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T-Bone
Yup - and the indoctrination program was designed to “clean your clock”....I.e. a mental and physical beating!
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chockfull
The indoctrination program funneled you towards what they termed as greater levels of "commitment", which equated to greater levels of control over your life you signed away.
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skyrider
All of this was policy-driven.......
One of the driving policies of the Corps Program: To become a great leader you must be an obedient follower (paraphrased). Obedience to leadership (....i.e. spiritual marine corps....) was tantamount to one's learning how to obey God's voice, holy spirit within. If you couldn't "listen, remember and obey" the corps leaders, how could you possibly be entrusted when God spoke revelation to you and have the discipline to obey His instructions? Every campus had its structure of obedience rules. The Indiana campus corps were instructed to always have a wooden spoon in their back pocket......to remind the kids, any one who needed reproof, who held authority. At LEAD, the final report of one's "spiritual test in the wilderness" was wholly scripted from the corps policy of "obedience."
The underlying fault lines of the corps training.........were mapped by a skewering of the scriptures. Wierwille's incompetence was NOT the problem: his agenda and policy-driven mandates underscored the cumulative effect of hardened, inept corps grads that were later placed in leadership positions. Everything wrong that was instituted in the corps program personified the pathologies of victor paul wierwille.
The rise and fall of twi........was greatly hastened by the corps program.
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T-Bone
Great points, Skyrider !
Yeah wierwille may have been incompetent in a lot of things…but I think he was adept at harnessing…corralling…looking for the right word - - maybe hijacking the goals, skills, and talents of others via an indoctrination program…and there is something to be said for wierwille’s quote in Lifelines – nothing happens without leadership - - in light of that I found an interesting article on leadership - - Can Bad People be Good Leaders ?
an excerpt from the article:
“Most definitions of leadership include two elements. Leadership involves both getting people to work together and the pursuit of some common purpose or goal. Superficial responses to the question in the title of this column respond by evaluating only the purpose. Mother Teresa was a good leader; Hitler was a bad leader. This judgement has nothing to do with our knowledge or evaluation of their leadership styles. Rather, it is a moral judgement of the goals they pursued.
But beyond evaluating the purpose, we need to understand the process of leadership. Even in the pursuit of objectives we agree are worthwhile, we know that there can be a difference significant enough between Leader A and Leader B to warrant moral distinctions. Success is part of the equation. Machiavelli equated good leadership with strong leadership, rationalizing any casualties in the process with a type of ends-justifying-the-means philosophy. Good leadership involves something more than the successful achievement of worthwhile ends. The how of leadership is a factor in the equation.”
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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skyrider
A Tale of Two Citadels
Long gone was............A Mighty Fortress is Our God.
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chockfull
Hey sky - you know I've been thinking for a while about the mixture of people in the Way throughout the years. I'm sure percentages probably fluctuated, but from my experience over time I've always seen a few categories:
1. Good pure-hearted Christians - the laity mostly.
2. Laity Leadership - a mixed bag. Some mushrooms and opportunists. Some genuine pure hearted Christians.
3. Corps - hate to say but mostly problematic. some good hearted just like other categories. Modeled after Marines (i.e. unspoken expected commitment levels and following of instructions) the Way Corps were mostly trained to kiss behind upwards and take frustrations out on those under authority downwards. That was what was modeled. Like the Freemasons (LOL) they had secret initiations, behavior, phrases. sorry that came into play on another thread LOL. the older ones initiate the younger ones in the Freemason rites - all the way up to the Grand Poobah of the Board of Directors. Councils of Pharisees. After reading up on Greasespot some of those Councils involved illegal and immoral activity. I personally only experienced the people playing politics stuff, not the darker tales when I was in. As I've read mostly in court documents because those who should have told me lied about it, there was an "initiated inner circle" that I never knew about. I'm sure that is only one of many.
Where is or was God?
The answer has to be in the individual hearts. I think the pure essence of God being love has to mean very specific individually, as well as if you are talking about collectively it has to be from the perspective of a whole body of Christ. The whole teaching of "household of God" is a doctrine of devils. I mean there's this group that my mom can't be in because she doesn't tithe to the Way. Thus she will be treated as slightly less than the homeless guy coming to fellowship. God or man?
I mean dear lord baby Jesus on a pogo stick how does that make any d@mn sense at all?
It makes about as much sense as Sharia law telling them to cut off little girls sex organs and then subject them to rape from relatives as part of God's idea of culture.
So when you get man's mixture of law and organization in in my opinion you get such extreme anomalies like the Way we see here. So much exploitation. So little God.
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skyrider
chockfull........yeah, a mixture of people and problematic corps recruits.
You know, everything begins and ends with leadership. I sometimes remind myself that the Old Testament gives vivid illustrations and documentation of the kings of old. When a king did right in the sight of God........the people flourished. When a king did evil in the sight of God.......the kingdom went into bondage.
Even though God blessed many of us, individually, in spite of twi and its leadership.........it succumbed to bondage.
The legalistic mandates, the trappings of man-made policies and the skewering of scripture took its toll. Those who had the means, and wits, to exit early.......did. In fact, looking back......I often found that the most independent and strong-minded people left FIRST. They did not allow themselves to be cornered.......socially, psychologically or doctrinally. So often, those who were Area Coordinators during in-residence........EXITED.
Within two years after my 9th corps graduation..........I would safely estimate that about 60-70 of those 9th corps were gone.
Just like the assembling of that way orchestra........so much talent...........then, a couple of years later...........poof, its gone.
.
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TLC
After the events of Pentecost (Acts 2), I think so. Socialism works great until you run out of other people's monies. Which is also why they ended up so broke. No joke. (Rom.15:26.)
So why did they do it? Simply because they were convinced that once all of Israel recognized the error of their ways and accepted Christ as their Messiah, he would return from the heavens (to Jerusalem) and restore the kingdom after a relatively short period of tribulation. (The time of Jacob's trouble.) So, they prepared... by selling their homes and pooling their resources. Worked just fine... until the money ran out.
The attempt to "replicate" the first century church (i.e., Acts 2:4ff) was one helluva mistake, and a gross misunderstanding of when the church of the body of Christ actually first began. (take a closer look at the meaning of that word "chief" in 1 Tim.1:15.)
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TLC
Well, I'm not convinced of that "mostly trained" part of your statement. But, apply it to the WC's greatly oversized "how great thou art" ego development program, and yeah - I'm all in. (Been there, done that. Damaged right along with the rest of y'alls...)
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Rocky
The topic is communalism, not socialism. I could easily rebut your editorial comments on economics but that wouldn't be proper for this website.
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