Hi Grace, you are welcome. As to your first question was he a godly man? After seeing this and other information about him, I would have to agree with your statement, "in my view no".
As to the statement that others would say that he was the MOG during his lifetime, I would have to agree with you on that statement also.
As to the statement "Perhaps both views are valid", I would offer this example:
If a woman tells her children that she loves them everyday when she drops them off at school and when they come home from school, but then before they go to bed she drugs them so that while they are asleep and unaware she can do unspeakable atrocities to them, then I would say that a "perhaps both views are valid" statement that she is a both a good mother and a bad mother would not hold water very well.
Just my opinion
GS, I never, never liked BG. I always thought he was a Con Man. However, millions of people thought he was a great MOG. One man's trash, is another man's treasure.
However, millions of people thought he was a great MOG
Yes, Grace, undoubtedly, and these verses explain that perfectly:
Matthew 7:13 ~
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat:"
Matthew 7:15 ~
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Matthew 7:21 ~
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
1) The true Jesus Christ, who stated his Father is the only true God ~ John 17:3
2) Or the false christ, who is 1of the mythical 3-gods-in-1 false trinity god invented out of thin air by the Roman Catholic church in 325 A.D. (documented historical fact)
Yes, Billy taught # 2, as stated in his 'What We Believe' list:
"We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" which is stated at:
He also says that his "closest family and relatives and his wife are already in heaven" in the video titled 'I Know I'm Going To Heaven' at his website here (starting at :55 seconds):
"We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved unto the resurrection of eternal life"
So he believes in the resurrection of the saved unto eternal life, but his closest family and relatives and his wife get a Special Pass directly to heaven without having to go through the resurrection like all the other billions of people who have lived through history. Very similar to the Roman Catholic doctrine that Mary went straight to heaven and is the Queen of Heaven. Not.
So the holes in his most basic and important doctrinal beliefs are so big, you could throw an mature adult elephant through them.
Evangelist? Yes
Christian Evangelist for the only true God?
Only in a parallel universe where all the laws of logic, language, physics, math, and everything else can be twisted into all kinds of wonderful LSD-induced Alice in Wonderland shapes and colors
So the holes in his most basic and important doctrinal beliefs are so big, you could throw an mature adult elephant through them.
Four fingers of that point back at yourself.
This "which Christ" line has been tossed around over the years (usually by staunch Trinitarians) so haphazardly and ... so outright maliciously at times, that it's truly disgusting.
Which other was it that laid his life down on a cross at Calgary, that God subsequently raised from the dead and called his "only begotten Son"?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
This "which Christ" line has been tossed around over the years (usually by staunch Trinitarians) so haphazardly and ... so outright maliciously at times, that it's truly disgusting.
Which other was it that laid his life down on a cross at Calgary, that God subsequently raised from the dead and called his "only begotten Son"?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
What? No verses of scripture or references for anything in that unintelligible comment?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
Oh, I forgot, it's Alice-in-Wonderland logic time again, where rabbits talk, lol...
Which four fingers are you referring to?
Is must be the three fingers of the false trinity doctrine plus you (congratulations, that makes 4 in real-world math, not Alice-in-Wonderland math used to support the Trinity).
I agree with you that the lie of the Trinity is truly malicious and disgusting
But please provided proofs that like mine that stand like mountains of truth, immoveable by Alice-in-Wonderland logic where everything moves and changes into all kinds of shapes and colors and sizes with no boundaries or limitations or anything real
Those 4 fingers are tightly wrapped around the Trinity's throat, and squeezing very tightly while the falseness of it drains out the other end in a pile of.....uhm.....Alice-in-Wonderland multi-colored ice cream that smells very bad....
1) The true Jesus Christ, who stated his Father is the only true God ~ John 17:3
2) Or the false christ, who is 1of the mythical 3-gods-in-1 false trinity god invented out of thin air by the Roman Catholic church in 325 A.D. (documented historical fact)
Yes, Billy taught # 2, as stated in his 'What We Believe' list:
"We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"
He also says that his wife is already in heaven in the video titled ABC on his website:
But on his 'What We Believe' page, it says:
"We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved unto the resurrection of eternal life"
So the holes in his most basic and important doctrinal beliefs are so big, you could throw an mature adult elephant through them.
Evangelist? Yes
Christian Evangelist for the only true God?
Only in a parallel universe where all the laws of logic, language, physics, math, and everything else can be twisted into all kinds of LSD induced Alice in Wonderland shapes and colors
And none of this has anything to do with salvation. They’re “non-issues”. Whenever we come “face to face” with Jesus Christ, he’s not going to ask “ Did you believe in the Trinity, 4 crucified, are the dead alive now, dispensations, the bema, etc.” He’s gonna ask if we love him. Just as he did with Peter. Every knee will bow, whether a Trinitarian or not.
In my experience most people don’t have even a little bit of understanding about the Trinity. Why it even came into existence. And it had nothing to do with “debil spurts” or “doctrines of debils”. More twi nonsense.
Scholars, real scholars have taught for centuries Trinitarian doctrine. The vast majority of Christianity believe in Trinity. Are they ALL wrong? Only the narrow minded view of twi and other similar organizations have a problem with it and that’s the main reason in my view that vp pushed it so hard and why so many of his followers accepted his poorly researched and written JCING. Arrogant, egotistical, division of the body of Christ.
I for one refuse to debate the subject. I can’t say it more emphatically...IT DOESN’T MATTER.
As to Billy Graham’s ministry, like anyone else’s, I ask “where’s the fruit”? Countless thousands came to Jesus Christ. Jesus saves. Not Billy Graham or vp or any other minister. Call BG names, disparage him in any way. He’ll say “Yes” when Jesus asks “Do you love me”?
By the way...I’m not a Trinitarian. And again, I’m not debating.
I have met many awesome Christians (trinis) who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
I have met some non-trinis, far fewer in number, who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
It's not an issue for most people. They just get on with living out their faith and getting on with the tasks that have been assigned to us as Christians. I tend to take the view that it's not an issue for Jesus, or for his (and our) Father. There's been 2,000 years since Jesus was murdered, and since he was raised from the dead. It's been 1700 years since the Council of Nicea presented us with the "creed" and the doctrine of the trinity (which clearly had been around for far longer than that).
So, in 2000 years, give or take a century, either (1) there is no God, and possibly no Jesus; or (2) neither God nor Jesus gets excited about this doctrine, as clearly they've done nothing to correct it one way or the other.
If it doesn't matter to them, it's inappropriate that it should be such a big deal for Christians now. There's a very great amount that we have been commanded to do, and it would be more appropriate to concentrate on that.
I have met many awesome Christians (trinis) who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
I have met some non-trinis, far fewer in number, who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
It's not an issue for most people. They just get on with living out their faith and getting on with the tasks that have been assigned to us as Christians. I tend to take the view that it's not an issue for Jesus, or for his (and our) Father. There's been 2,000 years since Jesus was murdered, and since he was raised from the dead. It's been 1700 years since the Council of Nicea presented us with the "creed" and the doctrine of the trinity (which clearly had been around for far longer than that).
So, in 2000 years, give or take a century, either (1) there is no God, and possibly no Jesus; or (2) neither God nor Jesus gets excited about this doctrine, as clearly they've done nothing to correct it one way or the other.
If it doesn't matter to them, it's inappropriate that it should be such a big deal for Christians now. There's a very great amount that we have been commanded to do, and it would be more appropriate to concentrate on that.
Very well said Twinky. Your last paragraph in particular, is taken to heart. Thanks!
Do the last few posts here need shifting to the Trinity thread?
As to Billy Graham (to keep this on track) - regardless of his faults (and who hasn't got faults?), he caused many people to want to know Christ, and to make commitments to learn, find out more. I do not know that he bullied people into submission, but he presented the gospel in a way that was exciting, fresh, interesting, and whet people's appetites to know more. At his rallies, he had people from local churches come and assist, so that they could take new committers under their wings. I don't know that he got people "born again" - I don't know who can say this for true. I do know that he started many people on a path where they could become born again, be saved, become Christians - put it how you will. Some, he may have offered a "faith revival" and that encouraged them to "return to the faith."
He had a big, positive, impact on people's lives, likely more than any poster here, and certainly more than TWI ever did.
Do the last few posts here need shifting to the Trinity thread?
As to Billy Graham (to keep this on track) - regardless of his faults (and who hasn't got faults?), he caused many people to want to know Christ, and to make commitments to learn, find out more. I do not know that he bullied people into submission, but he presented the gospel in a way that was exciting, fresh, interesting, and whet people's appetites to know more. At his rallies, he had people from local churches come and assist, so that they could take new committers under their wings. I don't know that he got people "born again" - I don't know who can say this for true. I do know that he started many people on a path where they could become born again, be saved, become Christians - put it how you will. Some, he may have offered a "faith revival" and that encouraged them to "return to the faith."
He had a big, positive, impact on people's lives, likely more than any poster here, and certainly more than TWI ever did.
I see his ministry in this regard too Twinky. Thanks again for your insight regarding BG.
This "which Christ" line has been tossed around over the years (usually by staunch Trinitarians) so haphazardly and ... so outright maliciously at times, that it's truly disgusting.
Which other was it that laid his life down on a cross at Calgary, that God subsequently raised from the dead and called his "only begotten Son"?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
The only person I ever heard say it was Loy C Martindale. And he most definitely seemed outright malicious when he said it. Otherwise, I agree with your comment.
Do the last few posts here need shifting to the Trinity thread?
As to Billy Graham (to keep this on track) - regardless of his faults (and who hasn't got faults?), he caused many people to want to know Christ, and to make commitments to learn, find out more. I do not know that he bullied people into submission, but he presented the gospel in a way that was exciting, fresh, interesting, and whet people's appetites to know more. At his rallies, he had people from local churches come and assist, so that they could take new committers under their wings. I don't know that he got people "born again" - I don't know who can say this for true. I do know that he started many people on a path where they could become born again, be saved, become Christians - put it how you will. Some, he may have offered a "faith revival" and that encouraged them to "return to the faith."
He had a big, positive, impact on people's lives, likely more than any poster here, and certainly more than TWI ever did.
So back to Billy Graham, I agree with you Twinky. I remember growing up in a church - family attended a denomination for a period of time not always. Billy at that time would always be advertised as filling the stadiums and as an evangelist winning and converting people. That was common at the time. I didn't personally attend one of his stadium meetings, but others that were similar, like one I remember with Oral Roberts or a son or something. Billy's huge meetings were always about converting people - winning them to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Billy wasn't evangelizing any doctrinal platform, trinity, resurrection perspectives, nothing. He was from my personal remembrances focused on salvation and getting people to accept Jesus. That was the beginning and end of his message, and usually he was just there for one day anyway. He would tell people to get in touch with a local church.
One of the criticisms of Billy is that he would leave "bastard children" around. Not in a literal or sexual deviant fashion. But in that people would be converted, and then alone with no support system.
I haven't had any personal interaction with him or his son or whatever ministry he is running. What I read seems to indicate they have swayed to pandering to power, which is believable knowing Billy's history.
But his roots and foundation were definitely only about winning people to Jesus Christ early on. As an evangelist figure, I mean compared to some I've met who had that title in the Way, I certainly think that godly fruit bears out. In the Way I met people with that title that acted egotistical and sent everyone else out witnessing while they sat around.
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waysider
Reminds me of THIS.
TLC
Did he preach and elevate himself (or live lavishly)? Did he preach Christ crucified, and risen from the dead? Were doors opened unto him? What then? Well, to continue on (in the words of
Rocky
But then again, there's this... about Billy Graham.
Grace Valerie Claire
GS, I never, never liked BG. I always thought he was a Con Man. However, millions of people thought he was a great MOG. One man's trash, is another man's treasure.
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GoldStar
Yes, Grace, undoubtedly, and these verses explain that perfectly:
Matthew 7:13 ~
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat:"
Matthew 7:15 ~
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Matthew 7:21 ~
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Yes, many, millions will believe and be fooled
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TLC
Did he preach and elevate himself (or live lavishly)?
Did he preach Christ crucified, and risen from the dead?
Were doors opened unto him?
What then? Well, to continue on (in the words of Paul)...
notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
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GoldStar
But which Christ?
1) The true Jesus Christ, who stated his Father is the only true God ~ John 17:3
2) Or the false christ, who is 1of the mythical 3-gods-in-1 false trinity god invented out of thin air by the Roman Catholic church in 325 A.D. (documented historical fact)
Yes, Billy taught # 2, as stated in his 'What We Believe' list:
"We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" which is stated at:
https://billygraham.org/about/what-we-believe
He also says that his "closest family and relatives and his wife are already in heaven" in the video titled 'I Know I'm Going To Heaven' at his website here (starting at :55 seconds):
https://billygraham.org/video/billy-graham-know-im-going-heaven
But on his 'What We Believe' page, it says:
"We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; the saved unto the resurrection of eternal life"
So he believes in the resurrection of the saved unto eternal life, but his closest family and relatives and his wife get a Special Pass directly to heaven without having to go through the resurrection like all the other billions of people who have lived through history. Very similar to the Roman Catholic doctrine that Mary went straight to heaven and is the Queen of Heaven. Not.
So the holes in his most basic and important doctrinal beliefs are so big, you could throw an mature adult elephant through them.
Evangelist? Yes
Christian Evangelist for the only true God?
Only in a parallel universe where all the laws of logic, language, physics, math, and everything else can be twisted into all kinds of wonderful LSD-induced Alice in Wonderland shapes and colors
Edited by GoldStarLink to comment
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TLC
Four fingers of that point back at yourself.
This "which Christ" line has been tossed around over the years (usually by staunch Trinitarians) so haphazardly and ... so outright maliciously at times, that it's truly disgusting.
Which other was it that laid his life down on a cross at Calgary, that God subsequently raised from the dead and called his "only begotten Son"?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
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GoldStar
What? No verses of scripture or references for anything in that unintelligible comment?
None, I tell you. Absolutely none. Make no mistake about it.
Oh, I forgot, it's Alice-in-Wonderland logic time again, where rabbits talk, lol...
Which four fingers are you referring to?
Is must be the three fingers of the false trinity doctrine plus you (congratulations, that makes 4 in real-world math, not Alice-in-Wonderland math used to support the Trinity).
I agree with you that the lie of the Trinity is truly malicious and disgusting
But please provided proofs that like mine that stand like mountains of truth, immoveable by Alice-in-Wonderland logic where everything moves and changes into all kinds of shapes and colors and sizes with no boundaries or limitations or anything real
Those 4 fingers are tightly wrapped around the Trinity's throat, and squeezing very tightly while the falseness of it drains out the other end in a pile of.....uhm.....Alice-in-Wonderland multi-colored ice cream that smells very bad....
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JayDee
And none of this has anything to do with salvation. They’re “non-issues”. Whenever we come “face to face” with Jesus Christ, he’s not going to ask “ Did you believe in the Trinity, 4 crucified, are the dead alive now, dispensations, the bema, etc.” He’s gonna ask if we love him. Just as he did with Peter. Every knee will bow, whether a Trinitarian or not.
In my experience most people don’t have even a little bit of understanding about the Trinity. Why it even came into existence. And it had nothing to do with “debil spurts” or “doctrines of debils”. More twi nonsense.
Scholars, real scholars have taught for centuries Trinitarian doctrine. The vast majority of Christianity believe in Trinity. Are they ALL wrong? Only the narrow minded view of twi and other similar organizations have a problem with it and that’s the main reason in my view that vp pushed it so hard and why so many of his followers accepted his poorly researched and written JCING. Arrogant, egotistical, division of the body of Christ.
I for one refuse to debate the subject. I can’t say it more emphatically...IT DOESN’T MATTER.
As to Billy Graham’s ministry, like anyone else’s, I ask “where’s the fruit”? Countless thousands came to Jesus Christ. Jesus saves. Not Billy Graham or vp or any other minister. Call BG names, disparage him in any way. He’ll say “Yes” when Jesus asks “Do you love me”?
By the way...I’m not a Trinitarian. And again, I’m not debating.
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Twinky
Yep, JayDee.
I have met many awesome Christians (trinis) who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
I have met some non-trinis, far fewer in number, who live out their faith and their love for the Lord.
It's not an issue for most people. They just get on with living out their faith and getting on with the tasks that have been assigned to us as Christians. I tend to take the view that it's not an issue for Jesus, or for his (and our) Father. There's been 2,000 years since Jesus was murdered, and since he was raised from the dead. It's been 1700 years since the Council of Nicea presented us with the "creed" and the doctrine of the trinity (which clearly had been around for far longer than that).
So, in 2000 years, give or take a century, either (1) there is no God, and possibly no Jesus; or (2) neither God nor Jesus gets excited about this doctrine, as clearly they've done nothing to correct it one way or the other.
If it doesn't matter to them, it's inappropriate that it should be such a big deal for Christians now. There's a very great amount that we have been commanded to do, and it would be more appropriate to concentrate on that.
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JayDee
Very well said Twinky. Your last paragraph in particular, is taken to heart. Thanks!
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Twinky
Do the last few posts here need shifting to the Trinity thread?
As to Billy Graham (to keep this on track) - regardless of his faults (and who hasn't got faults?), he caused many people to want to know Christ, and to make commitments to learn, find out more. I do not know that he bullied people into submission, but he presented the gospel in a way that was exciting, fresh, interesting, and whet people's appetites to know more. At his rallies, he had people from local churches come and assist, so that they could take new committers under their wings. I don't know that he got people "born again" - I don't know who can say this for true. I do know that he started many people on a path where they could become born again, be saved, become Christians - put it how you will. Some, he may have offered a "faith revival" and that encouraged them to "return to the faith."
He had a big, positive, impact on people's lives, likely more than any poster here, and certainly more than TWI ever did.
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JayDee
I see his ministry in this regard too Twinky. Thanks again for your insight regarding BG.
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Rocky
The only person I ever heard say it was Loy C Martindale. And he most definitely seemed outright malicious when he said it. Otherwise, I agree with your comment.
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chockfull
So back to Billy Graham, I agree with you Twinky. I remember growing up in a church - family attended a denomination for a period of time not always. Billy at that time would always be advertised as filling the stadiums and as an evangelist winning and converting people. That was common at the time. I didn't personally attend one of his stadium meetings, but others that were similar, like one I remember with Oral Roberts or a son or something. Billy's huge meetings were always about converting people - winning them to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Billy wasn't evangelizing any doctrinal platform, trinity, resurrection perspectives, nothing. He was from my personal remembrances focused on salvation and getting people to accept Jesus. That was the beginning and end of his message, and usually he was just there for one day anyway. He would tell people to get in touch with a local church.
One of the criticisms of Billy is that he would leave "bastard children" around. Not in a literal or sexual deviant fashion. But in that people would be converted, and then alone with no support system.
I haven't had any personal interaction with him or his son or whatever ministry he is running. What I read seems to indicate they have swayed to pandering to power, which is believable knowing Billy's history.
But his roots and foundation were definitely only about winning people to Jesus Christ early on. As an evangelist figure, I mean compared to some I've met who had that title in the Way, I certainly think that godly fruit bears out. In the Way I met people with that title that acted egotistical and sent everyone else out witnessing while they sat around.
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