Just heard this. A great loss. A brother in Christ of whom the Lord will be saying, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!"
Bush? The Burning Bush? No...not Moses' burning bush...
Take a look a The Washington Times Front-Page June 29, 1989 Headline article about The Burning Bush. Did Bushie's friend Billy know Bushie allowed call boys late-night access into the White House? Need more proof? There are videos of public meetings showing Bushie's tender physical contact with a caller...
Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals...
It's not just "The Way"...... it's The Way of Power and Corruption.
As to WHY politics is not allowed on the GSC, the answer is long. Briefly stated, it's not allowed anymore. The GSC is not about politics, but allowing discussions of politics took over the board, monopolized the moderators, and almost doomed the board. No more politics, period. So, let's keep politics off this thread.
As to whether Billy Graham had some issues, problems, etc, please make your specifics. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect it's a bluff. The Billy Graham I've heard of was as free of corruption as you can get as a person- someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning. (That really cuts the odds down.)
I'm sorry to hear he went, but he had a long life- partially due to clean living (vpw died in his 60s after decades of chronic smoking and drinking.)
Thank you so kindly for introducing yourself in such a friendly manner, I appreciate that since I am a newbie here only a couple of days.
Of course, just like all the other Preachers on a Pedestal like 'The Way's head preacher, their PR (Public Relations dept or Preacher Reverencing dept, take your pick) will make sure that the you and the whole world only hears that they are free of corruption as anyone can get and someone who did their best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning.
I am sure that since you heard that he was as free of corruption as you can get as a person and someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning, then that must be the truth, there can be no question about what you believe, he is completely squeaky clean. You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine.
Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect you're bluffing and protecting your favorite Preacher on a Pedestal. Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?
If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want.
Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on.
If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better.
I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago.
It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely.
Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework.
If I tell you that you have a flat tire, and you don't want to go look at it, that's your right, I'm not going to go take the tire off your car and take it to you so you can see that it is flat while you sit in your easy chair eating pizza watching TV.
Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here.
Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either.
Hi GoldStar. I just want to say that I believe that God has yet to work through a perfect person, (not including Jesus, needless to say) Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Perry Como, (his name just popped into my head lol) may have had better moral characteristics than Abraham, King David, Moses, Apostle Paul, Samson, Solomon, etc. etc. etc. But that doesn't mean that God did not do mighty works in them. And us too, when we let Him. As a believer, the Word says we are declared righteous by placing our faith in Jesus. If we could stand before God on our works alone, we wouldn't need a Savior. Even the squeaky cleans need one. Editing to say I went to the Billy Graham museum last summer, and man, that guy was on fire in his day. You just know that VP must have been burning with envy with that guy. But, I certainly don't want to taint Billy Graham with bringing up Vp.
I agree with your basic premise, but before he became a Christian, Paul was on fire in his day also, dragging Christians out of their homes to kill them.
Being on fire by itself is not a virtue.
And no need to taint Billy, his own words taint him.
Yeah but my own words taint me. I'm a freaking mess. That's what I mean, I need a Savior. That doesn't mean that I still can't help a person or two along my way. I know the people who have helped me, and still do help me, didn't wait until they get their act together to help me. Otherwise I'd be screwed. I wonder if I can say that word without it being edited. We shall see.
But I was referring not to tainted by words like when someone hits their thumb with a hammer and says some curse words, or calls someone a dummy behind their back
I was referring to tainted by words (and this is an example only, please no attacks), like the false teachers and false prophets that pretend to be Christian in front of the cameras, but behind closed doors they worship their father the Devil (John 8:44)
They could possibly help someone too, for example by changing a flat tire for someone, but not in the way of helping someone eternally by teaching them the truth about salvation through the real Jesus Christ, not the false one
It is not in their nature to tell the truth, they are liars
As Jesus said about them:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Thank you so kindly for introducing yourself in such a friendly manner, I appreciate that since I am a newbie here only a couple of days.
Of course, just like all the other Preachers on a Pedestal like 'The Way's head preacher, their PR (Public Relations dept or Preacher Reverencing dept, take your pick) will make sure that the you and the whole world only hears that they are free of corruption as anyone can get and someone who did their best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning.
I am sure that since you heard that he was as free of corruption as you can get as a person and someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning, then that must be the truth, there can be no question about what you believe, he is completely squeaky clean. You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine.
Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect you're bluffing and protecting your favorite Preacher on a Pedestal. Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?
If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want.
Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on.
If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better.
I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago.
It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely.
Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework.
If I tell you that you have a flat tire, and you don't want to go look at it, that's your right, I'm not going to go take the tire off your car and take it to you so you can see that it is flat while you sit in your easy chair eating pizza watching TV.
Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here.
Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either.
As far as I know (not much), you aren't in jeopardy of being banned. However, WordWolf is correct in his explanation of the history and background of why politics isn't a topic for GSC.
As to Mr. Graham, I don't know how he will be judged in the hereafter, but I also don't believe speculation on the subject matters much here one way or the other.
Hope that is the case, I'd like to stay and participate in discussions
But if politics is not allowed then the comment chastising politics should have been made at the first mention of Bush who is s politician, and that is where politics was introduced into the discussion, and where the chastising should have been directed
The chastisement about no politics should not have been made in direct response to my response, it is obvious that chastisement came after my comment due to someone didn't like their favorite Preacher on a Pedestal being rubbed the wrong way, the chastising comment itself eveals that very clearly
And regarding "speculation on the subject" my comment gave the name of a research book on the subject as a documented reference, not speculation, I was not going to copy and paste copyrighted material here, if someone wants to read or do homework is a matter of personal choice, I have done mine, there is no speculation
"Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals... "
That's what you said. If there's some point to the reference, please make it. Otherwise, instead of making a point, you're assigning homework. You're the one who had a point to make, something to say, so please say it. We've had plenty of people who've made vague comments and actually had nothing to add to discussions before. We'd prefer to see people add something to the discussions.
"You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine.
Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean."
"Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?"
Well, if you've already done it, then it's a piece of cake to get specific about what you know, what you've seen, heard, read, etc. Graham's lived his life in the public eye. I've not heard of any story breaking of him caught doing something- yet stories have broken about lots of others- Swaggart, Baker, Roberts, etc. What I HAVE heard is all consistent with a man free of scandal. His standard policy was to never ride in an elevator alone with a woman not his wife. Sounds extreme to some ears, but I think it's a sensible precaution for someone who's taking extraordinary steps to avoid opportunities to sin. For the rest, proving a negative doesn't work- but the absence of scandals where many of his peers were caught says quite a bit. That's as specific as I can get. If there's anything more concrete than "he's a public minister, they have authority, they all abuse their authority", then this would be a good time to bring it up.
"If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want."
So, looks like nothing specific. BTW, vpw had enough of a system to keep from getting arrested and exposed publicly while alive- but plenty of people knew and have stepped forward. He died before it caught up with him. As for power corrupting, I think it amplifies what's there. Someone who's corrupt will abuse power, someone who is not will not. We've seen there were people in twi with authority who never considered abusing it; I've never abused any authority I've had nor have I wanted to. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" was from Lord Acton, not the Bible. I feel at liberty to disagree with Lord Acton and to cite counter-examples.
"Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on.
If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better.
I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago.
It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely."
"Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here.
Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either."
That's an awful lot to build up, all from a notice that politics are no longer allowed on the GSC after some bad history with it. Amazing how fast I'm accused of things I never even suggested. I'm not the head anything here, but I post, and sometimes people find something useful in them. After you put down the chair, you might find something as well. Or you may not-there's no rule about that either way, with my posts or anyone else's. The GSC is remarkably free-handed in that respect.
"Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework. "
Politics, and anything that allows authority over someone, can resemble each other, but none of them are the same thing. Political discussions in particular got really contentious on this site, and wasted the time of the moderators. The admin considered either shutting the entire site down, or shutting down the political section and political discussion in general. He chose to go with the latter. Anyone is welcome to make their own messageboard for politics or anything else- and in this case, someone made a political forum with the blessings of the admin. Eventually it wound down and I don't think it exists anymore. Anyone's welcome to make a new one.
I could have sworn we were discussing the recent passing-away of Billy Graham....
Hope that is the case, I'd like to stay and participate in discussions
But if politics is not allowed then the comment chastising politics should have been made at the first mention of Bush who is s politician, and that is where politics was introduced into the discussion, and where the chastising should have been directed
The chastisement about no politics should not have been made in direct response to my response, it is obvious that chastisement came after my comment due to someone didn't like their favorite Preacher on a Pedestal being rubbed the wrong way, the chastising comment itself eveals that very clearly
And regarding "speculation on the subject" my comment gave the name of a research book on the subject as a documented reference, not speculation, I was not going to copy and paste copyrighted material here, if someone wants to read or do homework is a matter of personal choice, I have done mine, there is no speculation
He was quoted in a non-political context, and that was all that was said. If the OP had posted more, I would have reminded him that he was getting political. (Personally, I wouldn't even have quoted him because of the rule, but I'm not the OP. I imagine the moderators would have let that much go without comment as well. Besides, he's been posting here a while and has heard the rule before. Your post was left completely alone, and you were advised political discussions aren't allowed here. No action was taken against you except being told that. Calling it a "chastisement" may be a bit of a stretch.
As for the book you mentioned, there's plenty you can say without violating copyright. If someone you knew asked you about the book, what more would you tell them? If there's some horrible scandal of Graham's that it mentions, you could say something about it without extensive quoting. Even brief quoting is perfectly legal (providing you cite your source, which it's clear you would have done. What you did was like saying someone has to read this book by someone else, but you won't say why they should find it relevant. If I have to start getting into searches for the most vague information on the subject, I'll do what everyone else does and just scroll down. We're in a discussion forum. Please discuss.
BTW, you're acting like you've been yelled at and gotten moderator warnings. You might want to calm down and stop deciding that any disagreement with you is hostility. We discuss lots of things and disagree all the time here. It's healthy.
I'm not going to counterpoint every single point you make to make me look bad or to defend your actions
You came on very aggressive in your first comment to me, which was very clearly directed at me, you could have made the comment about no-politics after the first comment in this thread which mentioned politics by mentioning Bush - a politician - that opens the door to reply
But I won't get into the finer details with you on every comment you post about my comments, since you came with a sledge hammer with your first comment to me, I know how you will most likely come at me in the future
I am looking for intellectual discourse and hope to find it here, if your tone changes I will be happy to discuss issues of interest to me
If you don't want to read, that's your business, makes no diffference to me, if you want to know where there is buried treasure and I am nice enough to tell you, if you want a map draw it yourself, I am not going to draw the map for you or go dig up the treasure and deliver it to you while you lounge on your nice comfy sofa watching TV.
Maybe if you had been nice from the beginning, but when someone comes down hard on me out of the blue with a sledgehammer, they have just set the standard for the conflict.
Don't try to blame the conflict on me, that it typical narcissistic behavior, I won't put up with it, go attack someone else and then blame the conflict on them
As far as Billy, my comment was not about whether he would go into an elevator alone with with a woman, that is a very high standard, but you have no proof that he did or did not do that, you just believe it from something you read or heard from someone else, unless you were with him 24 hours a day? I doubt it. So you have no proof at all.
But if he actually did that (not going into an elevator alone with a woman other than his wife), that is a very nice thing, I do agree with that. But neither you nor I can know for sure whether he did or not.
But you completely missed the point of my comment, which was not whether he appeared to be a very nice person, that is the tip of the iceberg, the rest is underwater and not visible
But as I mentioned earlier in another post, what a person truly is, is revealed in their beliefs, and there are many proofs of his beliefs, and they are way off the mark by even most lenient standards, he is not what most people believe he is.
But I won't get into that discussion with you, I do not care for sledgehammer conversations, but I will vigorously defend myself against them
When the U.S. gymnasts accused the official doctor of child sex crimes - no one believed them
When the Hollywood actresses accused the producers of sexual harrassment and worse - no one believed them
When some of 'The Way' followers accused the leadership of the things they did - no one believed them
Thus the axiom:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
I made a point with a reference - some will not believe it at first
I did my homework and already got to the self-evident point as far as Billy is concerned
Hope that is the case, I'd like to stay and participate in discussions
But if politics is not allowed then the comment chastising politics should have been made at the first mention of Bush who is s politician, and that is where politics was introduced into the discussion, and where the chastising should have been directed
The chastisement about no politics should not have been made in direct response to my response, it is obvious that chastisement came after my comment due to someone didn't like their favorite Preacher on a Pedestal being rubbed the wrong way, the chastising comment itself eveals that very clearly
And regarding "speculation on the subject" my comment gave the name of a research book on the subject as a documented reference, not speculation, I was not going to copy and paste copyrighted material here, if someone wants to read or do homework is a matter of personal choice, I have done mine, there is no speculation
You make a good point. Perhaps GSC needs a pinned post on every one of its forums that makes it clear beforehand that we have a history of problematic discussion of politics. That could help with people new to the site feeling chastened when the subject does come up. I'm not a moderator here but I was a participant in the dysfunctional conduct when we did have political discussions.
I can assure you that WordWolf meant no offense or chastisement to you.
A related point, in the In Memoriam forum, we keep posts to be like something people might say in a eulogy at a memorial or funeral service. But in the Open Forum, a discussion could reasonably be had to discuss the pros and cons of the ministry that Billy Graham had through the years.
32 minutes ago, GoldStar said:
I am looking for intellectual discourse and hope to find it here, if your tone changes I will be happy to discuss issues of interest to me
GSC tolerates (even welcomes) disagreement, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into name calling and other such flame war type of posts.
So perhaps this thread can be moved by a moderator into the Open Forum for that purpose.
And I know that it is not easy sometimes to convey tone in writing, and I know that some people have a rougher way of talking, but I don't care to be doing all the heavy lifting in communication unless it is to save someone from harm
One can learn to communicate in a more civil tone, if they choose not to, then I reply to them in the tone they set - and I won't let them blame that tone on me when it is obviously their standard - I have studied narcissism enought to spot it right away most of the time - and I have zero tolerance for it
I personally do not think that moving the thread is the best thing to do
Reminds me too much of the Mark & Avoid tactic I have read about here so much
If every single post in this thread that mentions something that wasn't 100% involved with TWI is moved, then other posts would have to be moved also
Sounds a little legalistic to me, which is one of the things that TWI is accused of by numerous posters here, would those same posters or moderators want to be leaning in that direction (legalism) also, mimicking TWI ?
Moving this post may not change any of the posts already made, but moving them makes a statement, just like when other religions whose priests are moved when they do naughty things to innocent little boys, they are making a statement, that they want to hide something
Oops, another thing that was not involved 100% with TWI.....or was it?..I read a post here where someone alluded to exactly that
Moving posts for mentioning other things not 100% related to TWI, although related to other points being made about TWI, or germane to the discussion in some tangental way, is quite a tight tube
Do we have to suck peanut butter through a straw? Strain at gnats but swallow camels?
I shouldn't even have to make this point
But it is a valid point, but I don't make the decisions here
And I hope that readers and posters here are not that easily confused by something so simple?
I have moved this thread from About the Way to its proper forum. I have no idea how that could be considered anything such as M/A. It is simple housekeeping as is often done when a thread is misplaced. A link from its original location will stay there for 30 days.
Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals...
It's not just "The Way"...... it's The Way of Power and Corruption.
I do have an idea how this could be considered something such as M/A, but obviously stating that idea, however true, will not make a difference, the owners/leaders get to call the shots, just like at TWI
Whether a post is in one forum or another has no bearing on its merit or value. We try to keep the topics of threads in About the Way just that...about The Way. Occasionally within threads the discussion will wander off the topic, and that is to be expected, but the general thread topic usually comes back. Since Billy Graham had no presence within TWI the topic of his death does not belong there.
If I had moved the thread to Memorium then it would have some different rules as to how people may speak of the deceased. I did not put it there. That is a whole 'nother matter.
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waysider
Reminds me of THIS.
TLC
Did he preach and elevate himself (or live lavishly)? Did he preach Christ crucified, and risen from the dead? Were doors opened unto him? What then? Well, to continue on (in the words of
Rocky
But then again, there's this... about Billy Graham.
Twinky
Just heard this. A great loss. A brother in Christ of whom the Lord will be saying, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!"
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Twinky
But this needs shifting from About the Way. What fellowship has light with darkness?
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GoldStar
Bush? The Burning Bush? No...not Moses' burning bush...
Take a look a The Washington Times Front-Page June 29, 1989 Headline article about The Burning Bush. Did Bushie's friend Billy know Bushie allowed call boys late-night access into the White House? Need more proof? There are videos of public meetings showing Bushie's tender physical contact with a caller...
Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals...
It's not just "The Way"...... it's The Way of Power and Corruption.
Put Preachers on Pedestals in the Past
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WordWolf
As to WHY politics is not allowed on the GSC, the answer is long. Briefly stated, it's not allowed anymore. The GSC is not about politics, but allowing discussions of politics took over the board, monopolized the moderators, and almost doomed the board. No more politics, period. So, let's keep politics off this thread.
As to whether Billy Graham had some issues, problems, etc, please make your specifics. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect it's a bluff. The Billy Graham I've heard of was as free of corruption as you can get as a person- someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning. (That really cuts the odds down.)
I'm sorry to hear he went, but he had a long life- partially due to clean living (vpw died in his 60s after decades of chronic smoking and drinking.)
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GoldStar
Thank you so kindly for introducing yourself in such a friendly manner, I appreciate that since I am a newbie here only a couple of days.
Of course, just like all the other Preachers on a Pedestal like 'The Way's head preacher, their PR (Public Relations dept or Preacher Reverencing dept, take your pick) will make sure that the you and the whole world only hears that they are free of corruption as anyone can get and someone who did their best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning.
I am sure that since you heard that he was as free of corruption as you can get as a person and someone who did his best to avoid situations where he might consider sinning, then that must be the truth, there can be no question about what you believe, he is completely squeaky clean. You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine.
Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean. If I have to do the homework, I won't bother and I'll at least suspect you're bluffing and protecting your favorite Preacher on a Pedestal. Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?
If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want.
Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on.
If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better.
I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago.
It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely.
Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework.
If I tell you that you have a flat tire, and you don't want to go look at it, that's your right, I'm not going to go take the tire off your car and take it to you so you can see that it is flat while you sit in your easy chair eating pizza watching TV.
Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here.
Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either.
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RottieGrrrl
Hi GoldStar. I just want to say that I believe that God has yet to work through a perfect person, (not including Jesus, needless to say) Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Perry Como, (his name just popped into my head lol) may have had better moral characteristics than Abraham, King David, Moses, Apostle Paul, Samson, Solomon, etc. etc. etc. But that doesn't mean that God did not do mighty works in them. And us too, when we let Him. As a believer, the Word says we are declared righteous by placing our faith in Jesus. If we could stand before God on our works alone, we wouldn't need a Savior. Even the squeaky cleans need one. Editing to say I went to the Billy Graham museum last summer, and man, that guy was on fire in his day. You just know that VP must have been burning with envy with that guy. But, I certainly don't want to taint Billy Graham with bringing up Vp.
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GoldStar
Hi RottieGrrl,
I agree with your basic premise, but before he became a Christian, Paul was on fire in his day also, dragging Christians out of their homes to kill them.
Being on fire by itself is not a virtue.
And no need to taint Billy, his own words taint him.
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah but my own words taint me. I'm a freaking mess. That's what I mean, I need a Savior. That doesn't mean that I still can't help a person or two along my way. I know the people who have helped me, and still do help me, didn't wait until they get their act together to help me. Otherwise I'd be screwed. I wonder if I can say that word without it being edited. We shall see.
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GoldStar
I understand what you are saying
And we all need a Savior (Jesus Christ)
But I was referring not to tainted by words like when someone hits their thumb with a hammer and says some curse words, or calls someone a dummy behind their back
I was referring to tainted by words (and this is an example only, please no attacks), like the false teachers and false prophets that pretend to be Christian in front of the cameras, but behind closed doors they worship their father the Devil (John 8:44)
They could possibly help someone too, for example by changing a flat tire for someone, but not in the way of helping someone eternally by teaching them the truth about salvation through the real Jesus Christ, not the false one
It is not in their nature to tell the truth, they are liars
As Jesus said about them:
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
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Rocky
As far as I know (not much), you aren't in jeopardy of being banned. However, WordWolf is correct in his explanation of the history and background of why politics isn't a topic for GSC.
As to Mr. Graham, I don't know how he will be judged in the hereafter, but I also don't believe speculation on the subject matters much here one way or the other.
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GoldStar
Hope that is the case, I'd like to stay and participate in discussions
But if politics is not allowed then the comment chastising politics should have been made at the first mention of Bush who is s politician, and that is where politics was introduced into the discussion, and where the chastising should have been directed
The chastisement about no politics should not have been made in direct response to my response, it is obvious that chastisement came after my comment due to someone didn't like their favorite Preacher on a Pedestal being rubbed the wrong way, the chastising comment itself eveals that very clearly
And regarding "speculation on the subject" my comment gave the name of a research book on the subject as a documented reference, not speculation, I was not going to copy and paste copyrighted material here, if someone wants to read or do homework is a matter of personal choice, I have done mine, there is no speculation
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WordWolf
"Dr. Carol Burns also has a well-researched and documented book "Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?" that looks much deeper than just the goody-two-shoes facade of TV preachers' football stadium revivals... "
That's what you said. If there's some point to the reference, please make it. Otherwise, instead of making a point, you're assigning homework. You're the one who had a point to make, something to say, so please say it. We've had plenty of people who've made vague comments and actually had nothing to add to discussions before. We'd prefer to see people add something to the discussions.
"You can believe whatever you want. Don't do your homework. I don't care if you do or not. I have done mine.
Please make your specifics about how you know Billy is squeaky clean."
"Did you ever spend time with him in his motorcoach?"
Well, if you've already done it, then it's a piece of cake to get specific about what you know, what you've seen, heard, read, etc. Graham's lived his life in the public eye. I've not heard of any story breaking of him caught doing something- yet stories have broken about lots of others- Swaggart, Baker, Roberts, etc. What I HAVE heard is all consistent with a man free of scandal. His standard policy was to never ride in an elevator alone with a woman not his wife. Sounds extreme to some ears, but I think it's a sensible precaution for someone who's taking extraordinary steps to avoid opportunities to sin. For the rest, proving a negative doesn't work- but the absence of scandals where many of his peers were caught says quite a bit. That's as specific as I can get. If there's anything more concrete than "he's a public minister, they have authority, they all abuse their authority", then this would be a good time to bring it up.
"If you think 'The Way's' Preacher on a Pedestal had enough money to cover all their evil tracks, you can bet your bottom that Billy has many more millions to cover his. If you don't know that Power = Corruption in this world except in the case of the incorruptible man Jesus Christ, keep right on believing that. You're free to belive whatever you want."
So, looks like nothing specific. BTW, vpw had enough of a system to keep from getting arrested and exposed publicly while alive- but plenty of people knew and have stepped forward. He died before it caught up with him. As for power corrupting, I think it amplifies what's there. Someone who's corrupt will abuse power, someone who is not will not. We've seen there were people in twi with authority who never considered abusing it; I've never abused any authority I've had nor have I wanted to. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" was from Lord Acton, not the Bible. I feel at liberty to disagree with Lord Acton and to cite counter-examples.
"Don't know who you are, I don't want to have to do the homework to find out. But I'm sure if you're the head Preacher here, or owner of this site, or moderator, or whatever, that you may decide to Mark & Avoid me like I've read so many people on here were, or you may just delete my posts, or completely delete my profile, it's ok, life goes on.
If that is your revenge, go right ahead, it'll be just like old times. And I've been thrown out of much better places anyway. Have at it. I've tangled with better.
I don't see much difference between your attitude and the attitudes of the people who are criticized so much here for things they apparently did to innocent people years ago.
It's ok though, because I read posts on this site for some time before deciding to post here also, knowing that it would not be long before the attacks came. Lovely."
"Oh, and if you are the decision-maker on this site, please try to find it within yourself to give me a little notice if you are going to kick me off the site so that I can say 'bye to the people who have been nice to me here.
Otherswise if you just kick me off without any notice, then that will give me the right to tell others how this website is a cult, just like many people here have stated that 'The Way' is a cult because they got booted out with no notice either."
That's an awful lot to build up, all from a notice that politics are no longer allowed on the GSC after some bad history with it. Amazing how fast I'm accused of things I never even suggested. I'm not the head anything here, but I post, and sometimes people find something useful in them. After you put down the chair, you might find something as well. Or you may not-there's no rule about that either way, with my posts or anyone else's. The GSC is remarkably free-handed in that respect.
"Oh and by the way, since you apparently don't know, Politics and Religion are the same thing, just two arms of the same body, and if you haven't figured that out by now, well, then you do need to do your homework. "
Politics, and anything that allows authority over someone, can resemble each other, but none of them are the same thing. Political discussions in particular got really contentious on this site, and wasted the time of the moderators. The admin considered either shutting the entire site down, or shutting down the political section and political discussion in general. He chose to go with the latter. Anyone is welcome to make their own messageboard for politics or anything else- and in this case, someone made a political forum with the blessings of the admin. Eventually it wound down and I don't think it exists anymore. Anyone's welcome to make a new one.
I could have sworn we were discussing the recent passing-away of Billy Graham....
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WordWolf
He was quoted in a non-political context, and that was all that was said. If the OP had posted more, I would have reminded him that he was getting political. (Personally, I wouldn't even have quoted him because of the rule, but I'm not the OP. I imagine the moderators would have let that much go without comment as well. Besides, he's been posting here a while and has heard the rule before. Your post was left completely alone, and you were advised political discussions aren't allowed here. No action was taken against you except being told that. Calling it a "chastisement" may be a bit of a stretch.
As for the book you mentioned, there's plenty you can say without violating copyright. If someone you knew asked you about the book, what more would you tell them? If there's some horrible scandal of Graham's that it mentions, you could say something about it without extensive quoting. Even brief quoting is perfectly legal (providing you cite your source, which it's clear you would have done. What you did was like saying someone has to read this book by someone else, but you won't say why they should find it relevant. If I have to start getting into searches for the most vague information on the subject, I'll do what everyone else does and just scroll down. We're in a discussion forum. Please discuss.
BTW, you're acting like you've been yelled at and gotten moderator warnings. You might want to calm down and stop deciding that any disagreement with you is hostility. We discuss lots of things and disagree all the time here. It's healthy.
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GoldStar
I'm not going to counterpoint every single point you make to make me look bad or to defend your actions
You came on very aggressive in your first comment to me, which was very clearly directed at me, you could have made the comment about no-politics after the first comment in this thread which mentioned politics by mentioning Bush - a politician - that opens the door to reply
But I won't get into the finer details with you on every comment you post about my comments, since you came with a sledge hammer with your first comment to me, I know how you will most likely come at me in the future
I am looking for intellectual discourse and hope to find it here, if your tone changes I will be happy to discuss issues of interest to me
If you don't want to read, that's your business, makes no diffference to me, if you want to know where there is buried treasure and I am nice enough to tell you, if you want a map draw it yourself, I am not going to draw the map for you or go dig up the treasure and deliver it to you while you lounge on your nice comfy sofa watching TV.
Maybe if you had been nice from the beginning, but when someone comes down hard on me out of the blue with a sledgehammer, they have just set the standard for the conflict.
Don't try to blame the conflict on me, that it typical narcissistic behavior, I won't put up with it, go attack someone else and then blame the conflict on them
As far as Billy, my comment was not about whether he would go into an elevator alone with with a woman, that is a very high standard, but you have no proof that he did or did not do that, you just believe it from something you read or heard from someone else, unless you were with him 24 hours a day? I doubt it. So you have no proof at all.
But if he actually did that (not going into an elevator alone with a woman other than his wife), that is a very nice thing, I do agree with that. But neither you nor I can know for sure whether he did or not.
But you completely missed the point of my comment, which was not whether he appeared to be a very nice person, that is the tip of the iceberg, the rest is underwater and not visible
But as I mentioned earlier in another post, what a person truly is, is revealed in their beliefs, and there are many proofs of his beliefs, and they are way off the mark by even most lenient standards, he is not what most people believe he is.
But I won't get into that discussion with you, I do not care for sledgehammer conversations, but I will vigorously defend myself against them
When the U.S. gymnasts accused the official doctor of child sex crimes - no one believed them
When the Hollywood actresses accused the producers of sexual harrassment and worse - no one believed them
When some of 'The Way' followers accused the leadership of the things they did - no one believed them
Thus the axiom:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
I made a point with a reference - some will not believe it at first
I did my homework and already got to the self-evident point as far as Billy is concerned
Your mileage may vary
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Rocky
You make a good point. Perhaps GSC needs a pinned post on every one of its forums that makes it clear beforehand that we have a history of problematic discussion of politics. That could help with people new to the site feeling chastened when the subject does come up. I'm not a moderator here but I was a participant in the dysfunctional conduct when we did have political discussions.
I can assure you that WordWolf meant no offense or chastisement to you.
A related point, in the In Memoriam forum, we keep posts to be like something people might say in a eulogy at a memorial or funeral service. But in the Open Forum, a discussion could reasonably be had to discuss the pros and cons of the ministry that Billy Graham had through the years.
GSC tolerates (even welcomes) disagreement, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into name calling and other such flame war type of posts.
So perhaps this thread can be moved by a moderator into the Open Forum for that purpose.
Thanks GoldStar for understanding.
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GoldStar
I appreciate you civil tone Rocky
And I know that it is not easy sometimes to convey tone in writing, and I know that some people have a rougher way of talking, but I don't care to be doing all the heavy lifting in communication unless it is to save someone from harm
One can learn to communicate in a more civil tone, if they choose not to, then I reply to them in the tone they set - and I won't let them blame that tone on me when it is obviously their standard - I have studied narcissism enought to spot it right away most of the time - and I have zero tolerance for it
I personally do not think that moving the thread is the best thing to do
Reminds me too much of the Mark & Avoid tactic I have read about here so much
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Rocky
Well, Billy Graham wasn't involved with TWI... and this section is for discussing TWI/Wierwille and associated topics (like the PFLAP class).
Moving this discussion to the Open Forum in no way changes any of the posts already made to the thread and doesn't change any of the rules.
And it doesn't ban anyone from posting to it.
It's just a way to keep things organized so as to not confuse readers and posters.
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GoldStar
Be that as it may
If every single post in this thread that mentions something that wasn't 100% involved with TWI is moved, then other posts would have to be moved also
Sounds a little legalistic to me, which is one of the things that TWI is accused of by numerous posters here, would those same posters or moderators want to be leaning in that direction (legalism) also, mimicking TWI ?
Moving this post may not change any of the posts already made, but moving them makes a statement, just like when other religions whose priests are moved when they do naughty things to innocent little boys, they are making a statement, that they want to hide something
Oops, another thing that was not involved 100% with TWI.....or was it?..I read a post here where someone alluded to exactly that
Moving posts for mentioning other things not 100% related to TWI, although related to other points being made about TWI, or germane to the discussion in some tangental way, is quite a tight tube
Do we have to suck peanut butter through a straw? Strain at gnats but swallow camels?
I shouldn't even have to make this point
But it is a valid point, but I don't make the decisions here
And I hope that readers and posters here are not that easily confused by something so simple?
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Modgellan
I have moved this thread from About the Way to its proper forum. I have no idea how that could be considered anything such as M/A. It is simple housekeeping as is often done when a thread is misplaced. A link from its original location will stay there for 30 days.
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GoldStar
Oh great, now this Billy Graham thread (which I did not start), is now in the Open section along with "Looking for Old Songs on CD's"
Good move
That should kill the discussion
Seems like old times again
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Rocky
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Modgellan
Whether a post is in one forum or another has no bearing on its merit or value. We try to keep the topics of threads in About the Way just that...about The Way. Occasionally within threads the discussion will wander off the topic, and that is to be expected, but the general thread topic usually comes back. Since Billy Graham had no presence within TWI the topic of his death does not belong there.
If I had moved the thread to Memorium then it would have some different rules as to how people may speak of the deceased. I did not put it there. That is a whole 'nother matter.
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GoldStar
RIP Billy, enjoy the CD's of old songs...
No, no, Billy, I did not say RIP CD's, that is against copyright law...
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GoldStar
Yeah, sorry Billy
This thread about you got labeled as a Hot Topic with 26 replies
But someone started a movement to move it away from the hot zone, and now the conversation is dead
But I'm sure you understand Billy
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