Well, to answer honestly, The Wayfers most likely don't think they are lying. No religion has all the truth. That's what discernment is for. As far as the Trinity, you could ask that of Jehovah Witnesses, Jews, and Muslims, etc. as well. I don't believe you have to believe in the "Trinity" to be saved. I didn't even know what it was when I was "saved." I just believed Jesus was Lord, at some point. Before I ever met the wayfers.
As to the first, there's been teachings (OFF THE RECORD, DON'T WRITE THIS DOWN GUYS WE DON'T WANT THIS TO SHOW UP IN COURT) that it's all right to lie to people who aren't in twi. Since they consider themselves the only REAL Christians, they're perfectly fine with treating others worse than they treat each other.
Considering what twi'ers have done to each other, that says a lot.
Yeah word but the Seventh-day Adventist and Jehovah witnesses etc. etc. etc. consider themselves to be the only real Christians too. I can still watch teachings from just about any religion and get something from it if it's accurate. I do not throw the baby out with the bathwater because then I would not listen to anybody. Hey this was supposed to go under WordWorld's post .I don't know what happened !
CityGirl, belief in trinity (or not) isn't required for salvation. Don't hang your hat on it either way. I take the view that neither God, the creator of the Universe and all that is in it, and his Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord, have had 2000 years to do something about it if it were essential to their program of redemption. As neither has done anything, assume it's irrelevant, or of far less relevance than TWI made it out to be. Learn to enjoy what other Christians understand, and why they understand it. You'll find the message of Love, Grace, Forgiveness and helping others is far more important.
As to lying - I always told the truth to the best of my knowledge and ability. With hindsight, one's view of the truth changes. Once, I'd've invited people to a wonderful Christian fellowship (and in the early stages, I believe that's what they were). Now, I'm sorry for any part I played in getting anyone to stay around longterm in a destructive cult. (There were enough short-term; those folk were obviously wiser than me and left quickly.)
The Bible says in many places and many ways that we should not lie, and demonstrates consequences of lying. Therefore, it honors God not to lie. Those who lie - honor someone else.
Why do Wayfers feel they have to lie rather than tell the truth?
And why does the Way not believe in the Holy Trinity and that Christ is God?
I don’t have a definitive answer for you on either question - but I will mention a couple of contributing factors to think about.
Lying: I think the problem started at the top; if you’ve ever studied Matthew 23 ( Jesus addressing the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees as a bunch of hypocrites) in order to understand the leadership style of The Way International - you’d probably notice many similarities...in retrospect, I think a major unspoken facet of indoctrination in my way corps training was how to become a topnotch hypocrite! We were to learn the fine art of lying to ourselves and others...you learn things like “anything done in the love of god is ok” and “I’ve so renewed my mind that it’s not sin to me” (I’ve heard wierwille say that on several occasions)
...basically it’s an insidious idea that one can become so spiritually mature that you can handle just about anything and so the moral commands of the Bible (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, etc.) have little bearing on your walk...and I think there’s a trickle down effect also: your general way-believer is not stupid - sure they absorb the way-doctrine taught at fellowships but also they often learn by the example of leadership;
before I went in the corps - a number of folks that worked for our local branch coordinator were complaining about his dishonest business practices...what did the branch leader do ? Why, do teachings on how the adversary is always out to destroy the ministry, of course! how does he do it? One way is people murmuring against leadership...i hid that whole time of lying leadership in my heart - vowing I would not turn out that way when I went in the corps....
After going through the way corps program I’m sad to report that a lot of folks bought into that whole spiritual elitism / hypocrisy stuff...glad I left shortly after my residency - because that $hit can wear down the best of intentions and good hearts.
== == ==
TWI’s view of The Trinity:
First off I ought to tell you I am now a Trinitarian - and having come to that through a long process of study and reflection - I don’t think this forum is the best place to handle your question...however, you might want to look in the doctrinal forum of Grease Spot...you can search those topics by typing in “Trinity”...
But I will say something on how TWI uses their doctrine of “Jesus Christ is not God “ as a manipulative, coercive and polarizing tool to distinguish TWI from mainstream churches - which basically paints followers of Trinitarian doctrine as idolaters - “and you certainly don’t want to be with that group , now do you ?”
I’ve even heard wierwille and LCM state that many who teach the Trinity are born of the wrong seed and that to truly believe in the Trinity one has to be possessed....hmmm chapter and verse please ....yeah I’m calling utter bull$hit on all that!
Personally, I’m ok with Christians no matter how they view Jesus Christ - because if he is indeed Lord, then let’s get on with the program of serving our Lord instead of damning to hell Christians who don’t believe exactly like you or I do...so my concern is more with the practical consequence of a doctrine...
and one more thing - if you combine the polarizing effect of TWI’s view of Jesus along with their ultra-dispensationalism (that downgrades the importance of the Gospels and promotes an absent Christ) it makes me wonder if there is even much of anything left of Christ in their “brand” of Christianity ....nuff said
As to the first, there's been teachings (OFF THE RECORD, DON'T WRITE THIS DOWN GUYS WE DON'T WANT THIS TO SHOW UP IN COURT) that it's all right to lie to people who aren't in twi. Since they consider themselves the only REAL Christians, they're perfectly fine with treating others worse than they treat each other.
Considering what twi'ers have done to each other, that says a lot.
I honestly do not recall any teaching anywhere that 'allowed' anyone to lie.
I do not believe in the trinity. There is a lot of details within the Biblical records that can support the idea of Monotheism, a single Deity, and not a trinity.
I'm with Galen on this one ! TWI had a number of coined phrases such as 'don't tell all that you know' that reinforced the concept of not telling the whole truth and of course not telling the 'whole' truth morphed into some kind of hazy line between fact and fiction ! ( Pharaoh after Abrahams wife was the justification for this one ). There were many more, I just can't think off the top of my head atm.
The example taught in the Advanced Class was if you knew a person was possessed, do not tell them. Just love them and minister to them in any context that they could handle at the time.
I honestly do not recall any teaching anywhere that 'allowed' anyone to lie.
I do not believe in the trinity. There is a lot of details within the Biblical records that can support the idea of Monotheism, a single Deity, and not a trinity.
If you were around in the Rosa-lie era, this wasn't hard to find when she was doing her court depositions. Naturally, if they were documented, they would have shown up AMONG the court depositions.
I'm with Galen on this one ! TWI had a number of coined phrases such as 'don't tell all that you know' that reinforced the concept of not telling the whole truth and of course not telling the 'whole' truth morphed into some kind of hazy line between fact and fiction ! ( Pharaoh after Abrahams wife was the justification for this one ). There were many more, I just can't think off the top of my head atm.
If you weren't in the room when Rivenbark was saying this, you might have missed it completely. If you weren't in twi at the time, or in twi but not in the US at the time, you may have missed this.
Yeah word but the Seventh-day Adventist and Jehovah witnesses etc. etc. etc. consider themselves to be the only real Christians too. I can still watch teachings from just about any religion and get something from it if it's accurate. I do not throw the baby out with the bathwater because then I would not listen to anybody. Hey this was supposed to go under WordWorld's post .I don't know what happened !
Due to eccentricities on how the board software works now, when you hit "save" or whatever, it looks like the message posts out-of-order. Reload the page and it displays where it belongs. The rest of us saw it display after my post.
Yes, other Christians consider themselves "superior" Christians, but twi adds more arrogance than non-cults. twi'ers think it's ok to call non-twi'ers all sorts of things like "empties" and from there, it's not hard to consider them worthy of being treated even worse than they treat each other- which is worse than most Christians treat other Christians from other denominations even.
There are believers in our local fellowship, who have been 'faithful' for over 30 years, that have no idea of any of the things that happened during the court cases. They swallow what is told to them from leadership, and they willfully ignore all else. When I have let slip mentions of the court cases, they have been shocked and ultimately in denial.
Just because someone was active during the trials does not equal them having any knowledge of the trials. The knowledge was spread via this forum, which was largely forbidden.
There are believers in our local fellowship, who have been 'faithful' for over 30 years, that have no idea of any of the things that happened during the court cases. They swallow what is told to them from leadership, and they willfully ignore all else. When I have let slip mentions of the court cases, they have been shocked and ultimately in denial.
Hey WordWolf thanks for the explanation for how the software works. waysider I hear you on that one. But it's whatever works for me. I don't try to push my beliefs on somebody else,though I do discuss them with certain people. I have come a long way from the narrow minded waybrain I once was, as most people here have. But all religions are narrow minded in some ways. God is bigger than any of us give Him credit for. The mainstream orthodox religions are as bad as the people they call cults, in some respects. We all are I suppose.
Hey WordWolf thanks for the explanation for how the software works. waysider I hear you on that one. But it's whatever works for me. I don't try to push my beliefs on somebody else,though I do discuss them with certain people. I have come a long way from the narrow minded waybrain I once was, as most people here have. But all religions are narrow minded in some ways. God is bigger than any of us give Him credit for. The mainstream orthodox religions are as bad as the people they call cults, in some respects. We all are I suppose.
I honestly do not recall any teaching anywhere that 'allowed' anyone to lie.
I do not believe in the trinity. There is a lot of details within the Biblical records that can support the idea of Monotheism, a single Deity, and not a trinity.
The problem is not that it is "taught" that it is acceptable to lie. The problem is that the Board of Directors of the Way lies setting the example of lying, and justifies their lying with platitudes like you describe above "not telling someone they are possessed", or "not telling all you know". So they lie by example, but expect the underlings not to lie. Especially to them when they ask intrusive and illegal information about their employees' lives. This is Pharisee behavior. The top Pharisees are allowed to lie for the greater good of the Phariseedom. But the lower Pharisees are not, unless they are lying to the public and presenting to their superiors similar motives. It is a culture of lying to the lower caste.
The Way has rejected the trinity as a teaching since the publication of VPW's book "Jesus Christ is Not God". Since that is his teaching, that is what all wayfers believe.
The problem is not that it is "taught" that it is acceptable to lie. The problem is that the Board of Directors of the Way lies setting the example of lying, and justifies their lying with platitudes like you describe above "not telling someone they are possessed", or "not telling all you know". So they lie by example, but expect the underlings not to lie. Especially to them when they ask intrusive and illegal information about their employees' lives. This is Pharisee behavior. The top Pharisees are allowed to lie for the greater good of the Phariseedom. But the lower Pharisees are not, unless they are lying to the public and presenting to their superiors similar motives. It is a culture of lying to the lower caste.
The Way has rejected the trinity as a teaching since the publication of VPW's book "Jesus Christ is Not God". Since that is his teaching, that is what all wayfers believe.
Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender.
We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations).
Academics have pondered the issue, probably for eons. Interpersonal Deception Theory (IDT) explores the interrelation between the sender's communicative meaning and the receiver's thoughts and behavior in deceptive exchanges. Then there's looking at deception solely from the perspective on the deceived person.
When does one first recognize and realize that team sports often rely heavily on deception? Baseball -- the hidden ball trick; stealing signs (either baserunning signs or catchers calling for certain pitches). There's more of them just in baseball. In basketball, there's the head fake (then passing the "rock" to a different offensive player or taking the shot). In football, if the quarterback doesn't become masterful at looking at one receiver and throwing to others, he gets intercepted too frequently to be successful.
Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender.
We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations).
Academics have pondered the issue, probably for eons. Interpersonal Deception Theory (IDT) explores the interrelation between the sender's communicative meaning and the receiver's thoughts and behavior in deceptive exchanges. Then there's looking at deception solely from the perspective on the deceived person.
When does one first recognize and realize that team sports often rely heavily on deception? Baseball -- the hidden ball trick; stealing signs (either baserunning signs or catchers calling for certain pitches). There's more of them just in baseball. In basketball, there's the head fake (then passing the "rock" to a different offensive player or taking the shot). In football, if the quarterback doesn't become masterful at looking at one receiver and throwing to others, he gets intercepted too frequently to be successful.
That verse still fails to excuse the behavior of the current Board of Directors as much as it did when I brought up some of my current concerns to an acting Region coordinator and this is what he responded with. He went on currently to try and convince me to stand with the current BOD because I don't even like everything about myself so I won't like everything about the ministry. I just needed to agree on the major things and forget all the rest. because that is human nature.
Of course it is my fault for not expecting evil.
If you want to accept that is the nature of things that is your business. I disagree. That is the nature of evil. Truth needs no deception.
You must be a Patriots fan. Sorry for your loss. LOL.
That verse still fails to excuse the behavior of the current Board of Directors as much as it did when I brought up some of my current concerns to an acting Region coordinator and this is what he responded with. He went on currently to try and convince me to stand with the current BOD because I don't even like everything about myself so I won't like everything about the ministry. I just needed to agree on the major things and forget all the rest. because that is human nature.
Of course it is my fault for not expecting evil.
If you want to accept that is the nature of things that is your business. I disagree. That is the nature of evil. Truth needs no deception.
You must be a Patriots fan. Sorry for your loss. LOL.
A bit testy there, eh?
1) Apparently I wasn't altogether clear. Let me try to clarify a point or two. Not blaming you for anything. Yeah, the nature of evil is wound around deception. That doesn't mean we have to be naïve about it. Long ago we (perhaps most GSC'ers) outgrew our need for the subculture that is twi. We can be honest with people about how and why.
2) I'm aghast at how you could surmise that I'm a fan of any NFL team. I boycott the NFL because pretty much all retired players suffer chronic brain injury. However, I have long been a fan of eagles, so I was at least glad the Eagles won.
Rocky! What a fantastic little video on Ravens! I love stuff like this, it not only shows the complexities of the Animal Kingdom, but also it fascinates me that God put on the hearts of certain people to be able to watch and study these creatures from the littlest of insects to the most mighty of beasts. Tactical Deception. That's a new phrase for my vocabulary! Men do seem to be able to revert to the behavior of animals sometimes. And not to knock animals, they have to do it for survival. People seem to do it for power and greed.
1) Apparently I wasn't altogether clear. Let me try to clarify a point or two. Not blaming you for anything. Yeah, the nature of evil is wound around deception. That doesn't mean we have to be naïve about it. Long ago we (perhaps most GSC'ers) outgrew our need for the subculture that is twi. We can be honest with people about how and why.
2) I'm aghast at how you could surmise that I'm a fan of any NFL team. I boycott the NFL because pretty much all retired players suffer chronic brain injury. However, I have long been a fan of eagles, so I was at least glad the Eagles won.
Cheers dude!
Cheers Rocky.
Maybe a bit testy. But the incident I quoted you is real. A high ranking individual in the Way did use that verse to try and excuse the BOD behavior to me, and to get me to whitewash over it and continue on with the organization. You wrote:
""All men are liars." fromPsalms 116:11 . Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender. We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations)."
My feeling is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about the Board of Directors antics, cover-ups, control, ruining of lives through slander and lies, that's the minute they whitewash over the fence I was painting and move on. The whole nature of this forum is to point out the other side of the story of the Way, not to accept that it is the nature of things for individuals and groups, thus excusing the evil behavior and equating it to other normal or semi-normal human behavior in society.
So I absolutely believe there is a difference between corporate Machiavellian politics and the Pharisee organization that is built up called The Way International.
While all men are liars, not all men are Pharisees.
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T-Bone
Hi Grease Spotters, Just wanted to mention why I am incredulous with some of the posts on this thread (like the ones quoted above). It just seems like a trick to outmaneuver other posters wh
T-Bone
“dulled to questionable behavior, and therefore a pushover for any rationalization. Dulled to it yes; spiritually mature, pretty unlikely.” Hmmmmm… wierwille supposedly the most “spiritually mature”
Bolshevik
The answer usually given has been cognitive dissonance. They've been lied to. They've accepted the lies. They live in a false reality. They now lie to themselves and have to protect that reali
RottieGrrrl
Well, to answer honestly, The Wayfers most likely don't think they are lying. No religion has all the truth. That's what discernment is for. As far as the Trinity, you could ask that of Jehovah Witnesses, Jews, and Muslims, etc. as well. I don't believe you have to believe in the "Trinity" to be saved. I didn't even know what it was when I was "saved." I just believed Jesus was Lord, at some point. Before I ever met the wayfers.
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WordWolf
As to the first, there's been teachings (OFF THE RECORD, DON'T WRITE THIS DOWN GUYS WE DON'T WANT THIS TO SHOW UP IN COURT) that it's all right to lie to people who aren't in twi. Since they consider themselves the only REAL Christians, they're perfectly fine with treating others worse than they treat each other.
Considering what twi'ers have done to each other, that says a lot.
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah word but the Seventh-day Adventist and Jehovah witnesses etc. etc. etc. consider themselves to be the only real Christians too. I can still watch teachings from just about any religion and get something from it if it's accurate. I do not throw the baby out with the bathwater because then I would not listen to anybody. Hey this was supposed to go under WordWorld's post .I don't know what happened !
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Twinky
Think you mean "WordWolf," RottieGrrrl.
CityGirl, belief in trinity (or not) isn't required for salvation. Don't hang your hat on it either way. I take the view that neither God, the creator of the Universe and all that is in it, and his Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord, have had 2000 years to do something about it if it were essential to their program of redemption. As neither has done anything, assume it's irrelevant, or of far less relevance than TWI made it out to be. Learn to enjoy what other Christians understand, and why they understand it. You'll find the message of Love, Grace, Forgiveness and helping others is far more important.
As to lying - I always told the truth to the best of my knowledge and ability. With hindsight, one's view of the truth changes. Once, I'd've invited people to a wonderful Christian fellowship (and in the early stages, I believe that's what they were). Now, I'm sorry for any part I played in getting anyone to stay around longterm in a destructive cult. (There were enough short-term; those folk were obviously wiser than me and left quickly.)
The Bible says in many places and many ways that we should not lie, and demonstrates consequences of lying. Therefore, it honors God not to lie. Those who lie - honor someone else.
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waysider
The problems begin to arise when we, ourselves, become the sole arbiters of what is accurate and what is not.
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T-Bone
I don’t have a definitive answer for you on either question - but I will mention a couple of contributing factors to think about.
Lying: I think the problem started at the top; if you’ve ever studied Matthew 23 ( Jesus addressing the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees as a bunch of hypocrites) in order to understand the leadership style of The Way International - you’d probably notice many similarities...in retrospect, I think a major unspoken facet of indoctrination in my way corps training was how to become a topnotch hypocrite! We were to learn the fine art of lying to ourselves and others...you learn things like “anything done in the love of god is ok” and “I’ve so renewed my mind that it’s not sin to me” (I’ve heard wierwille say that on several occasions)
...basically it’s an insidious idea that one can become so spiritually mature that you can handle just about anything and so the moral commands of the Bible (don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, etc.) have little bearing on your walk...and I think there’s a trickle down effect also: your general way-believer is not stupid - sure they absorb the way-doctrine taught at fellowships but also they often learn by the example of leadership;
before I went in the corps - a number of folks that worked for our local branch coordinator were complaining about his dishonest business practices...what did the branch leader do ? Why, do teachings on how the adversary is always out to destroy the ministry, of course! how does he do it? One way is people murmuring against leadership...i hid that whole time of lying leadership in my heart - vowing I would not turn out that way when I went in the corps....
After going through the way corps program I’m sad to report that a lot of folks bought into that whole spiritual elitism / hypocrisy stuff...glad I left shortly after my residency - because that $hit can wear down the best of intentions and good hearts.
== == ==
TWI’s view of The Trinity:
First off I ought to tell you I am now a Trinitarian - and having come to that through a long process of study and reflection - I don’t think this forum is the best place to handle your question...however, you might want to look in the doctrinal forum of Grease Spot...you can search those topics by typing in “Trinity”...
But I will say something on how TWI uses their doctrine of “Jesus Christ is not God “ as a manipulative, coercive and polarizing tool to distinguish TWI from mainstream churches - which basically paints followers of Trinitarian doctrine as idolaters - “and you certainly don’t want to be with that group , now do you ?”
I’ve even heard wierwille and LCM state that many who teach the Trinity are born of the wrong seed and that to truly believe in the Trinity one has to be possessed....hmmm chapter and verse please ....yeah I’m calling utter bull$hit on all that!
Personally, I’m ok with Christians no matter how they view Jesus Christ - because if he is indeed Lord, then let’s get on with the program of serving our Lord instead of damning to hell Christians who don’t believe exactly like you or I do...so my concern is more with the practical consequence of a doctrine...
and one more thing - if you combine the polarizing effect of TWI’s view of Jesus along with their ultra-dispensationalism (that downgrades the importance of the Gospels and promotes an absent Christ) it makes me wonder if there is even much of anything left of Christ in their “brand” of Christianity ....nuff said
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Galen
I honestly do not recall any teaching anywhere that 'allowed' anyone to lie.
I do not believe in the trinity. There is a lot of details within the Biblical records that can support the idea of Monotheism, a single Deity, and not a trinity.
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Allan
I'm with Galen on this one ! TWI had a number of coined phrases such as 'don't tell all that you know' that reinforced the concept of not telling the whole truth and of course not telling the 'whole' truth morphed into some kind of hazy line between fact and fiction ! ( Pharaoh after Abrahams wife was the justification for this one ). There were many more, I just can't think off the top of my head atm.
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Galen
The example taught in the Advanced Class was if you knew a person was possessed, do not tell them. Just love them and minister to them in any context that they could handle at the time.
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Rocky
Occam's razor - it's simply human nature.
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WordWolf
If you were around in the Rosa-lie era, this wasn't hard to find when she was doing her court depositions. Naturally, if they were documented, they would have shown up AMONG the court depositions.
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WordWolf
If you weren't in the room when Rivenbark was saying this, you might have missed it completely. If you weren't in twi at the time, or in twi but not in the US at the time, you may have missed this.
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WordWolf
Due to eccentricities on how the board software works now, when you hit "save" or whatever, it looks like the message posts out-of-order. Reload the page and it displays where it belongs. The rest of us saw it display after my post.
Yes, other Christians consider themselves "superior" Christians, but twi adds more arrogance than non-cults. twi'ers think it's ok to call non-twi'ers all sorts of things like "empties" and from there, it's not hard to consider them worthy of being treated even worse than they treat each other- which is worse than most Christians treat other Christians from other denominations even.
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Galen
There are believers in our local fellowship, who have been 'faithful' for over 30 years, that have no idea of any of the things that happened during the court cases. They swallow what is told to them from leadership, and they willfully ignore all else. When I have let slip mentions of the court cases, they have been shocked and ultimately in denial.
Just because someone was active during the trials does not equal them having any knowledge of the trials. The knowledge was spread via this forum, which was largely forbidden.
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JayDee
Wow.
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RottieGrrrl
Hey WordWolf thanks for the explanation for how the software works. waysider I hear you on that one. But it's whatever works for me. I don't try to push my beliefs on somebody else,though I do discuss them with certain people. I have come a long way from the narrow minded waybrain I once was, as most people here have. But all religions are narrow minded in some ways. God is bigger than any of us give Him credit for. The mainstream orthodox religions are as bad as the people they call cults, in some respects. We all are I suppose.
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Rocky
Or than any of us can even imagine...
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chockfull
The problem is not that it is "taught" that it is acceptable to lie. The problem is that the Board of Directors of the Way lies setting the example of lying, and justifies their lying with platitudes like you describe above "not telling someone they are possessed", or "not telling all you know". So they lie by example, but expect the underlings not to lie. Especially to them when they ask intrusive and illegal information about their employees' lives. This is Pharisee behavior. The top Pharisees are allowed to lie for the greater good of the Phariseedom. But the lower Pharisees are not, unless they are lying to the public and presenting to their superiors similar motives. It is a culture of lying to the lower caste.
The Way has rejected the trinity as a teaching since the publication of VPW's book "Jesus Christ is Not God". Since that is his teaching, that is what all wayfers believe.
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Rocky
"All men are liars." from Psalms 116:11
Edited by RockyOf course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender.
We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations).
Academics have pondered the issue, probably for eons. Interpersonal Deception Theory (IDT) explores the interrelation between the sender's communicative meaning and the receiver's thoughts and behavior in deceptive exchanges. Then there's looking at deception solely from the perspective on the deceived person.
When does one first recognize and realize that team sports often rely heavily on deception? Baseball -- the hidden ball trick; stealing signs (either baserunning signs or catchers calling for certain pitches). There's more of them just in baseball. In basketball, there's the head fake (then passing the "rock" to a different offensive player or taking the shot). In football, if the quarterback doesn't become masterful at looking at one receiver and throwing to others, he gets intercepted too frequently to be successful.
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chockfull
That verse still fails to excuse the behavior of the current Board of Directors as much as it did when I brought up some of my current concerns to an acting Region coordinator and this is what he responded with. He went on currently to try and convince me to stand with the current BOD because I don't even like everything about myself so I won't like everything about the ministry. I just needed to agree on the major things and forget all the rest. because that is human nature.
Of course it is my fault for not expecting evil.
If you want to accept that is the nature of things that is your business. I disagree. That is the nature of evil. Truth needs no deception.
You must be a Patriots fan. Sorry for your loss. LOL.
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Rocky
A bit testy there, eh?
1) Apparently I wasn't altogether clear. Let me try to clarify a point or two. Not blaming you for anything. Yeah, the nature of evil is wound around deception. That doesn't mean we have to be naïve about it. Long ago we (perhaps most GSC'ers) outgrew our need for the subculture that is twi. We can be honest with people about how and why.
2) I'm aghast at how you could surmise that I'm a fan of any NFL team. I boycott the NFL because pretty much all retired players suffer chronic brain injury. However, I have long been a fan of eagles, so I was at least glad the Eagles won.
Cheers dude!
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Rocky
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RottieGrrrl
Rocky! What a fantastic little video on Ravens! I love stuff like this, it not only shows the complexities of the Animal Kingdom, but also it fascinates me that God put on the hearts of certain people to be able to watch and study these creatures from the littlest of insects to the most mighty of beasts. Tactical Deception. That's a new phrase for my vocabulary! Men do seem to be able to revert to the behavior of animals sometimes. And not to knock animals, they have to do it for survival. People seem to do it for power and greed.
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chockfull
Cheers Rocky.
Maybe a bit testy. But the incident I quoted you is real. A high ranking individual in the Way did use that verse to try and excuse the BOD behavior to me, and to get me to whitewash over it and continue on with the organization. You wrote:
""All men are liars." from Psalms 116:11 . Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender.
We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations)."
My feeling is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about the Board of Directors antics, cover-ups, control, ruining of lives through slander and lies, that's the minute they whitewash over the fence I was painting and move on. The whole nature of this forum is to point out the other side of the story of the Way, not to accept that it is the nature of things for individuals and groups, thus excusing the evil behavior and equating it to other normal or semi-normal human behavior in society.
So I absolutely believe there is a difference between corporate Machiavellian politics and the Pharisee organization that is built up called The Way International.
While all men are liars, not all men are Pharisees.
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