Has anyone looked for self referential greatness elsewhere?
How about Jesus? Paul? Luke? John?
Ever wonder how the children of Israel recognized Moses' non-self-referential greatness?
Moses, an outcast on several levels, comes to them with "I was sent by the great 'I am.'"
I am aware of much better translations of "I am" like "I will be" and "I will be what you need Me to be" but I often wonder how he proved anything to them with that. Didn't the plagues come a little later?
I have some theories.
Whenever I hear cult warnings I look at Jesus and his 12 to see if a little mitigation is in order.
I don't think anyone has yet started looking for "self referential greatness" in Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses.
My hunch is that "self referential greatness" IN ITSELF is not enough of an indicator to discern good from evil. Now, if you look at Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses as ALSO evil, then my point drowns.
In your above statement what makes Saint Vic the exception?
I didn't claim an exception.
My ONLY point expressed here is that a lot of good people (like Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, Moses) have made "self referential greatness" statements. Therefore, a "self referential greatness" statement ALONE is NOT a good indicator of a fat ego.
Babe Ruth said something like: if a man says he can jump over a barn, and he CAN do it, then he's not bragging. We hardly ever see greatness. We can analyze it only poorly.
My ONLY point expressed here is that a lot of good people (like Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, Moses) have made "self referential greatness" statements. Therefore, a "self referential greatness" statement ALONE is NOT a good indicator of a fat ego.
Babe Ruth said something like: if a man says he can jump over a barn, and he CAN do it, then he's not bragging. We hardly ever see greatness. We can analyze it poorly.
And a lot of evil people and dystopian societies also use self referential statements. So?
You then said:
22 minutes ago, Mike said:
It's what a person does AFTER the self proclamation that speaks louder to me.
To which I responded, Saint Vic proclaimed he had the only true word of God, afterword he did everything he could to disgrace that proclaimation.
I'm trying to make one tiny point about self referential greatness. I think about this topic from many angles. My Babe Ruth example is needed in our cultural mind-set IMO. We over condemn ego sometimes.
I'm also trying to keep my promise to NOT be in your face(s) with a lot of counter info on VPW to balance your statements.
I'm trying to make one tiny point about self referential greatness. I think about this topic from many angles. My Babe Ruth example is needed in our cultural mind-set IMO. We over condemn ego sometimes.
Ego is fine, as long as it doesn't injure others.
Your basic error, as I'm trying to point out, somewhat eloquently, is that your thinking our whole decision is based on ego. It's not. Like you, we look at what was done AFTER the self proclaimation.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
I'm also trying to keep my promise to NOT be in your face(s) with a lot of counter info on VPW to balance your statements.
You can't hold me responsible for balls you lob right over the plate.
Your basic error, as I'm trying to point out, somewhat eloquently, is that your thinking our whole decision is based on ego. It's not. Like you, we look at what was done AFTER the self proclaimation.
That's not my thinking.
I was thinking only that this thread's pointing to "self referential greatness statements" as some kind of huge red flag IN ITSELF might be looked at differently.
The much larger picture is your "whole decision" where you include some of his actions that follow such statements.
I too look at a larger picture, but at different actions following, with differing weighing policies. But I wasn't commenting on these larger pictures; merely on the premise of this thread. Or the premise as I perceived it.
Sometimes, in ourselves, it's difficult to recognize the difference between a healthy dose of confidence and an overinflated ego. That's why we do well to learn how to view outside criticism with an object eye. This is a lesson professional actors and other performers are supposed to learn early on in their careers. You have to give fair consideration to outside critique and consider whether or not it has legitimate value. We've all seen examples of celebrities who somehow missed that lesson. There is no shortage of divas.
I was thinking only that this thread's pointing to "self referential greatness statements" as some kind of huge red flag IN ITSELF might be looked at differently.
See, that's where your missing the boat: if you read any of Skyrider's other threads, you'd see this is just one of many red flags.
5 minutes ago, Mike said:
The much larger picture is your "whole decision" where you include some of his actions that follow such statements.
Your the one that brought up I go by the actions that follow the proclamation. Not me.
You simply say "Thank you." At the same time it's a healthy practice to internally reflect on what prompted their praise.
Yes, I agree.
Plus, I feel it my duty to return the good feeling they are trying to convey to me. But I never had any practice at handling praise, and it initially flummoxed me. I'm learning to turn the grace back to the sender, slowly. From what I read in "Wealth and Poverty" 30 years ago, this is how the economy works.
See, that's where your missing the boat: if you read any of Skyrider's other threads, you'd see this is just one of many red flags.
Actually, I've been reading several of them and slowly seeing how they are organized. There's a lot that's been posted here in the years I've been gone.
Anyway, my interest in this one red flag issue is broader that the TWI application you folks have in mind. I mentioned that in this flurry of posting, I think to someone else.
I know where you are coming from, I hear you, but I'm refraining from going down that path.
I'm not familiar with "Wealth and Poverty". I do know, though, that my high school acting teacher used to hammer that concept into our heads on a regular basis. "If you take criticism personally", he would say, "You won't go very far in the theater."
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skyrider
Wierwille was The Teacher................because he said he was. TWI is the true household of God......because they say it is. Elena Whiteside wrote The Way: Living in Love.......because she
OldSkool
Yes, the alphabet, singing in tongues, silently, outloud, etc. TWI teaches that sit actually builds up the spirit within a born again believer, makes it stronger like spiritual weight lifting.
So_crates
You mean like proclaiming you have the only true word of God than stealing others ideas and raping women?
Rocky
aka narcissism.
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T-Bone
yup
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
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Mike
Has anyone looked for self referential greatness elsewhere?
How about Jesus? Paul? Luke? John?
Ever wonder how the children of Israel recognized Moses' non-self-referential greatness?
Moses, an outcast on several levels, comes to them with "I was sent by the great 'I am.'"
I am aware of much better translations of "I am" like "I will be" and "I will be what you need Me to be" but I often wonder how he proved anything to them with that. Didn't the plagues come a little later?
I have some theories.
Whenever I hear cult warnings I look at Jesus and his 12 to see if a little mitigation is in order.
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So_crates
Why stop at Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses?
How about Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Lenin?
Or the Nazis? Or the Soviet Union?
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T-Bone
uh oh
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Mike
I don't think anyone has yet started looking for "self referential greatness" in Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses.
My hunch is that "self referential greatness" IN ITSELF is not enough of an indicator to discern good from evil. Now, if you look at Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses as ALSO evil, then my point drowns.
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Mike
It's what a person does AFTER the self proclamation that speaks louder to me.
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So_crates
You mean like proclaiming you have the only true word of God than stealing others ideas and raping women?
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Mike
I was talking about Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, or Moses.
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So_crates
No, you were saying:
And I in return presented Saint Vic's proclamation and what he did afterward.
And, if you want to try and take that out, what makes Saint Vic different than your examples?
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Mike
So, how does that "prove" that "self referential greatness" always indicated evil?
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So_crates
I'm not trying to "prove" that "self referential greatness" always indicated evil.
First off always is a very big word nothing is always.
I would use "more likely".
Second, you said
In your above statement what makes Saint Vic the exception?
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Mike
I didn't claim an exception.
My ONLY point expressed here is that a lot of good people (like Jesus, Paul, Luke, John, Moses) have made "self referential greatness" statements. Therefore, a "self referential greatness" statement ALONE is NOT a good indicator of a fat ego.
Babe Ruth said something like: if a man says he can jump over a barn, and he CAN do it, then he's not bragging. We hardly ever see greatness. We can analyze it only poorly.
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So_crates
And a lot of evil people and dystopian societies also use self referential statements. So?
You then said:
To which I responded, Saint Vic proclaimed he had the only true word of God, afterword he did everything he could to disgrace that proclaimation.
You set the perimeters.
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Mike
I'm trying to make one tiny point about self referential greatness. I think about this topic from many angles. My Babe Ruth example is needed in our cultural mind-set IMO. We over condemn ego sometimes.
I'm also trying to keep my promise to NOT be in your face(s) with a lot of counter info on VPW to balance your statements.
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So_crates
Ego is fine, as long as it doesn't injure others.
Your basic error, as I'm trying to point out, somewhat eloquently, is that your thinking our whole decision is based on ego. It's not. Like you, we look at what was done AFTER the self proclaimation.
You can't hold me responsible for balls you lob right over the plate.
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Mike
That's not my thinking.
I was thinking only that this thread's pointing to "self referential greatness statements" as some kind of huge red flag IN ITSELF might be looked at differently.
The much larger picture is your "whole decision" where you include some of his actions that follow such statements.
I too look at a larger picture, but at different actions following, with differing weighing policies. But I wasn't commenting on these larger pictures; merely on the premise of this thread. Or the premise as I perceived it.
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waysider
Sometimes, in ourselves, it's difficult to recognize the difference between a healthy dose of confidence and an overinflated ego. That's why we do well to learn how to view outside criticism with an object eye. This is a lesson professional actors and other performers are supposed to learn early on in their careers. You have to give fair consideration to outside critique and consider whether or not it has legitimate value. We've all seen examples of celebrities who somehow missed that lesson. There is no shortage of divas.
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Mike
I think about this topic of self referential statements in many contexts TOTALLY UnRELATED to TWI.
Recently I learned to dance well enough to get praise from people. I think hard on how to properly respond.
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waysider
You simply say "Thank you." At the same time it's a healthy practice to internally reflect on what prompted their praise.
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So_crates
See, that's where your missing the boat: if you read any of Skyrider's other threads, you'd see this is just one of many red flags.
Your the one that brought up I go by the actions that follow the proclamation. Not me.
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Mike
Yes, I agree.
Plus, I feel it my duty to return the good feeling they are trying to convey to me. But I never had any practice at handling praise, and it initially flummoxed me. I'm learning to turn the grace back to the sender, slowly. From what I read in "Wealth and Poverty" 30 years ago, this is how the economy works.
Oops! That's 38 years ago.
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Mike
Actually, I've been reading several of them and slowly seeing how they are organized. There's a lot that's been posted here in the years I've been gone.
Anyway, my interest in this one red flag issue is broader that the TWI application you folks have in mind. I mentioned that in this flurry of posting, I think to someone else.
I know where you are coming from, I hear you, but I'm refraining from going down that path.
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waysider
I'm not familiar with "Wealth and Poverty". I do know, though, that my high school acting teacher used to hammer that concept into our heads on a regular basis. "If you take criticism personally", he would say, "You won't go very far in the theater."
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