Growing pains

[Mike]

Just now, So_crates said:

 

So then why did you tell me you didn't know them?

 

context:  I didn't know them to be complicated

[So_crates]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

context:  I didn't know them to be complicated

No, context you being dishonest with me. As you would say, both sides being honest is a requirement to having a conversation.

If your dishonest with something as simple as bibical names most people studying the bible knows, how do I know whether your being honest with me with anything else?

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, So_crates said:

No, context you being dishonest with me. As you would say, both sides being honest is a requirement to having a conversation.

If your dishonest with something as simple as bibical names most people studying the bible knows, how do I know whether your being honest with me with anything else?

 

I honestly believe you'll never believe in my honesty.

 

[So_crates]

Just now, Mike said:

I honestly believe you'll never believe in my honesty.

Especially after it was on full display with the last couple of posts.

And then you wonder why you can't have civil conversations.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, So_crates said:

Especially after it was on full display with the last couple of posts.

And then you wonder why you can't have civil conversations.

I can live with that.

[So_crates]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can live with that.

Says a lot about you, doesn't it?

Not only do you do something dishonest, your smug about it.

Is this one of the many things PLAF has done for you? Taught you to represent God by being dishonest?

Edited February 15, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

10 minutes ago, So_crates said:

...smug about it.

Not smug.

If I couldn't live with it I wouldn't have posted it.

Anything else you want to talk about before we end this?

 

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

What Mike is saying, I am addicted to PFAL and particularly to the collaterals(supplemented materials). If I give them up, my life is worthless, I can't face reality. In my mind, they give me comfort. Did I get this right, what you are really saying to us?

[Mike]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

What Mike is saying, I am addicted to PFAL and particularly to the collaterals(supplemented materials). If I give them up, my life is worthless, I can't face reality. In my mind, they give me comfort. Did I get this right, what you are really saying to us?

Not fully. But thanks for asking.

What I was saying is that EVEN if I'm totally wrong in relying so much on PFAL, it's not reasonable for posters to expect I'd drop it so easily as from few hundred posts in debate.

THAT'S IT!

I was exasperated at that cartoon naivete. I wondered at how many other unreasonable cartoon mind images some might have. The Pure evil model comes to mind.

Off to the side, I'm not addicted to food. I do need it's benefits, but I don't regard that an addiction. Now if I saw lots of bad side effects of one food I ate a lot of, and I couldn't quit, THEN I'd call that addiction.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Mike

[So_crates]

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not fully. But thanks for asking.

What I was saying is that EVEN if I'm totally wrong in relying so much on PFAL, it's not reasonable for posters to expect I'd drop it so easily as from few hundred posts in debate.

THAT'S IT!

If your honest about spending all that time with PLAF. Once again, if I studied PLAF for 10 years I'd be quoting it off the top of my head.

Then there's always your smugness about being dishonest about knowing bibical names that any student of the bible knows. (Those just tuning in: check the last 10 posts)

Quote

I was exasperated at that cartoon naivete. I wondered at how many other unreasonable cartoon mind images some might have. The Pure evil model comes to mind.

You forgot the one big bit of cartoon naitvete: You hero worship of Saint Vic. As far as your concerned he can do no wrong and you always have a ready excuse for Saint Vic's obviously evil behavior.

Quote

 Now if I saw lots of bad side effects of one food 

So then you understand our aversion to PLAF

Edited February 15, 2018 by So_crates

[WordWolf]

Ok, sincerely offered explanation, sincerely accepted. I'll do my best to make this brief, simple, and relevant.

==========================

What's a rationalization?   A rationalization is a MASK. Someone wants to do something, so they PRETEND they have a rational reason for wanting to do it. They construct a fake reason that SOUNDS rational, and says that's why they want to do it. It's NOT rational, but it's trying to fake it.  The point of a rationalization is someone wanting to do something and looking for an excuse to do it even though they don't have a sensible reason.

 

What's a False Dilemma?  A False Dilemma is a type of rationalization. Someone wants to do something, so they construct 2 things-  1) a mask for what they WANT to do, to make it sound much better than it is;  and    2) a grotesque parody of realty that represents what they want all the other possibilities to look like- in order to make their choice look better by comparison.     The next step is to pretend that there are exactly two-and ONLY 2- possibilities-  the one they want, and the hideous option they invented to make their choice look better by comparison.

 

In this case, Mike, you're offering exactly 2 options:  1) believe what you want to believe- which you're claiming is fantastic and only a fool would give it up for any reason; or    2) completely discard everything you believe all at once to embrace this "Pure Evil" construct you've invented and named that bears no resemblance to what anyone is actually SAYING.

 

The obvious thing about this, Mike, is that it's a giveaway.  It's a basic strategy for someone who has SQUAT.   Every person relies on what they have going for them in a discussion.

"If you have the law on your side, hammer the law. If you have the facts on your side, hammer the facts."   Someone relying on making something up to contrast with their position just to look good is like someone who goes out to singles bars-making sure to bring along an acquaintance who's incredibly ugly to sit next to in order to look like a better option.

 

You keep speaking of this "Pure Evil" mockery you've invented, and expect people to take you seriously.   I once said "I disagree" to someone, and they began making up all sorts of things they IMAGINED I agreed with or condemned, like condemning mixed marriages (Mrs Wolf was amused to hear me tell her that one.)  Do you think that person was taken seriously as someone ready to have a discussion?  If you really want to discuss what different people here believe about vpw, for example, we CAN explain it briefly and clearly- and NONE of it conforms to your "PURE EVIL" construct.

[WordWolf]

49 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not fully. But thanks for asking.

What I was saying is that EVEN if I'm totally wrong in relying so much on PFAL, it's not reasonable for posters to expect I'd drop it so easily as from few hundred posts in debate.

THAT'S IT!

I was exasperated at that cartoon naivete. I wondered at how many other unreasonable cartoon mind images some might have. The Pure evil model comes to mind.

Off to the side, I'm not addicted to food. I do need it's benefits, but I don't regard that an addiction. Now if I saw lots of bad side effects of one food I ate a lot of, and I couldn't quit, THEN I'd call that addiction.

 

There's a rephrasing of your False Dilemma.  Nobody said they expected that. (And there's been more than the few hundred more recent posts.) Nobody HAD "that cartoon naivete" that exasperated you-needlessly. This "Pure Evil" model is just as cartoonish AND IMAGINARY as that IMAGINED expectation.

But to you, comparing your thought processes with those imaginary ones sure makes you look less the fool by comparison...at least, that's the intention.

[Allan]

Geesh, you people !! All I know IS the Word works...if it works in one way and direction for Mike, great. If it works for you or someone else in another way on another journey, great too ! If it's working for ya, isn't that what it's supposed to do ?!

[So_crates]

12 hours ago, Allan said:

Geesh, you people !! All I know IS the Word works...if it works in one way and direction for Mike, great. If it works for you or someone else in another way on another journey, great too ! If it's working for ya, isn't that what it's supposed to do ?!

As far as I'm concerned, he could be a member of the Church of Latter Day Smerfs, I wouldn't care. As you were saying, it his journey and his problem.

But once he crosses the line and involves me, he makes it my problem.

As I've said before, you don't go on atheist sites and try witnessing to them, nor do you go on communist websites to chat up the benefits of capitalism, nor do you go to a socialist website to proclaim the joys of being a republic. Common sense should tell you your going to create a flame war.

I dedicated 42 years of my life to PLAF. It was the biggest mistake of my life. 

Tell me, Allen (to use someone elses metaphor) What if someone told you there was this four star restaurant with the most fantastic food. You go there and you find the food is spoiled and full of roaches and maggots. You watch and the cook doesn't wash his hands.

So you realize you've wasted your money.

Then you go on the net and someone else is trying to sell how great that four star restaurant is. What do you do?

Add to that the hero worship of Saint Vic's dark soul. 

(I can name good things Saint Vic did; can Mike tell us some evil things he did? Like I said hero worship)

Then include Mike's head games (he has a tendancy to insult people, then when he gets the predicted result, he says he wants peace) and dishonesty (claiming posting quotes from PLAF is too much work, yet thinks nothing of posting a half a page on one of his theories; claiming he doesn't know common bibical characters) and you'll see he's busy creating his own problems.

Edited February 15, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

7 hours ago, Allan said:

Geesh, you people !! All I know IS the Word works...if it works in one way and direction for Mike, great. If it works for you or someone else in another way on another journey, great too ! If it's working for ya, isn't that what it's supposed to do ?!

Thanks for the refreshing, Allan.

My thinking is that it only works for people who have been lucky or resourceful enough to carefully separate the written teachings from all the administrative and supplemental baggage that was intertwined with it. The taste of TWI can ruin anything.

[So_crates]

10 minutes ago, Mike said:

Thanks for the refreshing, Allan.

My thinking is that it only works for people who have been lucky or resourceful enough to carefully separate the written teachings from all the administrative and supplemental baggage that was intertwined with it. The taste of TWI can ruin anything.

And what was one of the things that left a bad taste in peoples mouth?

The dishonesty.

The same dishonesty you displayed and were smug about last night.

[Mike]

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

This "Pure Evil" model is just as cartoonish AND IMAGINARY as that IMAGINED expectation.

 

I differ on this.

Meanwhile I am trying to stuff myself into the compartment you have me in, offering a false dilemma rationalization.  That's a little bizarre.  I said 3 times I was not in that logic-compartment when I made those comments, but I want to see what you are saying there anyway.

But the Pure Evil model is SO MUCH embraced here that you'd have to step aside, take a vacation, to see it.

Last year I noticed that many (not all) Trump haters were pretty much in the same mode thought: a purely evil model of Trump was all they could see and talk about.

I also noticed it in sports.  How could two baseball friends root for the same team for one season, and then suddenly hate each other when it's football season and the root for opposing teams.  In sports it's a kind of faux hate, It tells me there's a need that the hate is fulfilling. It's the need for a simple, all-evil villain.

I'm not the only one to notice this in our culture. These two articles have been posted a few times, but no one wants to comment on them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-05/the-patriots-aren-t-evil-they-re-just-losers

https://cuencahighlife.com/good-guys-and-bad-guys-why-is-pop-culture-so-obsessed-with-making-the-distinction/

I think that there is SO LITTLE resistance to many ideas here that some ideas become crowned as king without much scrutiny, and the Pure Evil cartoon model of VPW is one of them.

If you had more bold posters who were and still are blessed by PFAL then maybe you’d all wouldn’t have swallowed it hook line and sinker. Like the authors of those articles, I think it’s laziness.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Mike

[T-Bone]

8 hours ago, Allan said:

Geesh, you people !! All I know IS the Word works...if it works in one way and direction for Mike, great. If it works for you or someone else in another way on another journey, great too ! If it's working for ya, isn't that what it's supposed to do ?!

I don’t think this discussion has really been about if “the word” works or not...or even if one’s personal application of “the word” works or not...

It’s just my opinion but it looks to me like this thread (as well as some other threads ) involving a certain poster has been more about what does NOT work in a discussion - things like dishonesty, logical fallacies, changing the subject, dodging questions, etc. - which many Grease Spotters have tried to point out and even assist that certain poster so that there is clarification on exactly what his point is.

Edited February 15, 2018 by T-Bone
Clarity

[So_crates]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

<MORE BULL ABOUT PURE EVIL MODEL>

Yah, the whole thing is so unlike your hero worship of Saint Vic

And here are a few links on hero worship

The Danger of Hero Worship

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/hero-worship

Hero Worship Always Ends Poorly

https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/men-and-heroism/hero-worship-always-ends-poorly/

 

Seems Mike has fallen into the trap of hero worship. He claims otherwise, but the facts bear out the truth

• Saint Vic stealing others work is acceptable, he says, because everything intellectual belongs to God, so theft didn't exist
• Saint Vic's violating women is acceptable, he says,  because quarterbacks always get the girl.

Check the above hero worship links, note where they say people's heros do no wrong. Then look at his two rationalizations for unacceptable behavior.

I can name something good Saint Vic did. Can you tell me something evil he did? 

So your pure evil model was just blown out of the water and my hero worship theory has been proven.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

9 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I don’t think this discussion has really been about if “the word” works or not...or even if one’s personal application of “the word” works or not...

It’s just my opinion but it looks to me like this thread (as well as some other threads ) involving a certain poster has been more about what does NOT work in a discussion - things like dishonesty, logical fallacies, changing the subject, dodging questions, etc. - which many Grease Spotters have tried to point out and even assist that certain poster so that there is clarification on exactly what his point is.

T-Bone, 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

 

I honestly believe you'll never believe in my honesty.

 

Mike, for once I agree with you.

[T-Bone]

To determine if another person is honest- I think it’s like credibility or trust - they are something to be earned.

Edited February 15, 2018 by T-Bone
Clarity

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, So_crates said:

As far as I'm concerned, he could be a member of the Church of Latter Day Smerfs, I wouldn't care. As you were saying, it his journey and his problem.

But once he crosses the line and involves me, he makes it my problem.

As I've said before, you don't go on atheist sites and try witnessing to them, nor do you go on communist websites to chat up the benefits of capitalism, nor do you go to a socialist website to proclaim the joys of being a republic. Common sense should tell you your going to create a flame war.

I dedicated 42 years of my life to PLAF. It was the biggest mistake of my life. 

Tell me, Allen (to use someone elses metaphor) What if someone told you there was this four star restaurant with the most fantastic food. You go there and you find the food is spoiled and full of roaches and maggots. You watch and the cook doesn't wash his hands.

So you realize you've wasted your money.

Then you go on the net and someone else is trying to sell how great that four star restaurant is. What do you do?

Add to that the hero worship of Saint Vic's dark soul. 

(I can name good things Saint Vic did; can Mike tell us some evil things he did? Like I said hero worship)

Then include Mike's head games (he has a tendancy to insult people, then when he gets the predicted result, he says he wants peace) and dishonesty (claiming posting quotes from PLAF is too much work, yet thinks nothing of posting a half a page on one of his theories; claiming he doesn't know common bibical characters) and you'll see he's busy creating his own problems.

I recognize your point in the highlighted text, but just want to point out that Demographic Geography shows that today those two are not mutually exclusive.

[So_crates]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

I recognize your point in the highlighted text, but just want to point out that Demographic Geography shows that today those two are not mutually exclusive.

Thanks Rocky, it was my error. I should have thought of Bernie Sanders, democratic socialist.

Maybe going on one political party's website and spouting the ideology of the other political party would have been clearer.

[Twinky]

Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat.

This was the point:

On 2/3/2018 at 6:08 PM, Twinky said:

... if [Mike] cares to share about the understanding he's now gaining about the hurt that had been caused, I'd be pleased to share his journey with him.  As I think would many of us here.

I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI.  And nothing of any personal growth by Mike.

Knock it off, folks.  Let Mike slink back into the woodwork, as he (says he) wishes to do.  He might then find time to ponder just a little on what he's too busy defending himself against.

 

But I'm guessing that this thread will meander on for another dozen pages, with Mike continuing to offer provocative comments and not empathetic ones.