I have not had time to read anything posted since last night, but I look forward to it.
Meanwhile I heard an interesting radio show last night while driving. It was on football, one of my least favorite topics. But this discussion was on the Pure Evil model as it exists in modern society. I found a recording of the show and am extracting points and links. This discussion was on hating evil and the Pure Evil model that is emerging in modern culture. This confirmed a lot of the hunches I’ve been developing on how VPW is viewed here. Food for thought.
This radio discussion started in football, then went into fairy tales for models of evil in olden times, then politics. I’m extracting links and names.
So far:
ThePatriots Aren't Evil. They're Just Losers. – Bloomberg
So, your able to scroll back to get your "Pure Evil" post but your not able to scroll back to figure out what the subject is.
Your dishonesty is showing.
Then you wonder why you have no credibility here.
How much do you think people are going to listen to someone that doesn't listen to them?
Do you think those pro-PLAF people think when they see you play head games like this?
See how easy it is:
On 2/10/2018 at 6:20 PM, So_crates said:
I would guess all you think about is Saint Vic. In the past three threads, when it comes to Saint Vic you spin like a wet load of laundry, yet PLAF and bible quotes are fewer than fritters at a fat farm.
Seems to me if you were half the PLAF kahuna you claim to be collateral and bible quotes would dapple your posts like shade on a boulevard.
19 hours ago, So_crates said:
I'm not going to do anything until you answer the post the night before. Experience tells me your just trying to muddy the waters.
Meanwhile, you like ideas. How about principle? For a change I'll give you something to think about.
What kind of man claims to be a MOG and
steals others work word for word then claims them as his own
drinks Drambukie like a drowning man gulping air
forces himself on women
Now consider the above from a principle standpoint.
Now we'll see how much you really want to talk ideas
Don't get me wrong, you have the right to worship anybody or anything you want to.
Just be honest about it.
No, he’s not my hero and I don't worship him.
What I'm looking at intensely with focus is not VPW, nor pictures of him, nor recordings of his voice, not do I muse over events in his life, nor events where I was with him personally.That’s all minor stuff in my head, and sometimes years can go by with nothing going on in those categories.
The main thing I get from VPW is the "end of the road" for researching certain Bible verses. My focus is what happened 2000 years when Jesus Christ was first sent, and then ab-sent by God. I intensely look for him to soon be re-sent.
There’s always so much uncertainty when reading a version of the Bible, and a difficult or intriguing verse often comes up. What certainty can be had when other versions say slightly or even radically different things? Then the uncertainty increases as we look at the semi-older Critical Greek manuscripts in the footnotes of a Greek Interlinear version. Then, one never knows when they will discover an ancient manuscript that pulls the whole rug our from under what was thought to be certain.
Biblical research has no 5 o’clock whistle telling you “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! YOU’VE REACHED THE END. YOU FOUND THE ANSWER. STOP RESEARCHING NOW, BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY DRIFT YOU AWAY FROM THE TRUTH YOU FOUND.”
There’s just so much uncertainty in reading scholarly offerings (all Bible versions) and it’s a never ending process of checking up on things. I'm at the stage in my life where I'm weary of searching, and I just want something to discipline my mind to.
What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative. I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble.
We all knew from I John 1:8,10 that all ministers have sin. What kind of sin?Stealing nickel candy bars from the dime store?Before my first year in the ministry was completed I was glad to hear at the end of the Rock of Ages that VPW was not a goodie goodie and that we all were downers and outers together. I like that. I can relate to that.
But I’m in it MOSTLY for the text.
What I get from VPW is some text that is solid and won’t change.
The issues I look for in both versions and in PFAL are: The return of Christ, Abraham’s believing against hope or turning his hope into believing, Peter’s return to the epistles of Paul, The end-of-life scripture party Paul announced in II Timothy with Mark and Luke. I’m also interested in Moses sin, Paul caught away to the third heaven, Paul’s handling of intellectuals in Acts 17.
I think the PFAL text is totally sanitized.
John S of the old CES thought similarly. People who lived off the texts living far from TWI interference have no complaints of the devil spirits posters here see in there like the David and Bathsheba account. Remember the softened approach suggested here by socks the other day on that.
Really, so why all the excuses for his evil behavior? Why tag everyone with "The Pure Evil" model. Sure signs of hero worship
Quote
What I'm looking at intensely with focus is not VPW, nor pictures of him, nor recordings of his voice, not do I muse over events in his life, nor events where I was with him personally.That’s all minor stuff in my head, and sometimes years can go by with nothing going on in those categories.
I take it here you attempting to rationalize your position, as you always do. These are not signs of hero worship. Check the links I provided.
Quote
The main thing I get from VPW is the "end of the road" for researching certain Bible verses. My focus is what happened 2000 years when Jesus Christ was first sent, and then ab-sent by God. I intensely look for him to soon be re-sent.
So Christ in you doesn't count as Christ being present?
Quote
There’s always so much uncertainty when reading a version of the Bible, and a difficult or intriguing verse often comes up. What certainty can be had when other versions say slightly or even radically different things?
The uncertainty is with you. Most of the people in this forum don't have that problem.
Name a verse that's translated radically different ways.
Quote
Then the uncertainty increases as we look at the semi-older Critical Greek manuscripts in the footnotes of a Greek Interlinear version. Then, one never knows when they will discover an ancient manuscript that pulls the whole rug our from under what was thought to be certain.
Biblical research has no 5 o’clock whistle telling you “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! YOU’VE REACHED THE END. YOU FOUND THE ANSWER. STOP RESEARCHING NOW, BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY DRIFT YOU AWAY FROM THE TRUTH YOU FOUND.”
We've already found manuscripts by contemporary authors that have sent the Saint Vic house of cards crashing down. After all, he stole the text from them.
Quote
There’s just so much uncertainty in reading scholarly offerings (all Bible versions) and it’s a never ending process of checking up on things. I'm at the stage in my life where I'm weary of searching, and I just want something to discipline my mind to.
But somehow Saint Vic solved it all, and by robbing texts from evryone of those scholarly offerings your putting down, no less.
Quote
What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative.
Not authoritive in you mind. As many bible quotes on stealing, on not forcing yourself on women, and on not continuing in sin are repeatedly ignored by you. What's odd is many of these verses you ignore are also found in PLAF.
Quote
I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble.
We all knew from I John 1:8,10 that all ministers have sin. What kind of sin?Stealing nickel candy bars from the dime store?Before my first year in the ministry was completed I was glad to hear at the end of the Rock of Ages that VPW was not a goodie goodie and that we all were downers and outers together. I like that. I can relate to that.
Saying Saint Vic sinned is like saying sharks eat. We're not talking about nicking candy bars, we're talking about doing things that hurt and do psychological damage to other people. But hey he's your hero, so he has an all purpose excuse.
And let's all forget Romans 6:1b-2: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Paul didn't say go ahead sin, after all, it's all grace.
So how many times is a sin acceptable? Well, Saint Vic answered that. How many chances did he give a person before a face melting? Before they were marked and avoided?
Quote
But I’m in it MOSTLY for the text.
Then why don't you quote the text? Your more than happy to offer text from the Book of Bad Excuses for Saint Vic, but when it comes to quoting text from PLAF its crickets and tumbleweeds.
Quote
What I get from VPW is some text that is solid and won’t change.
No, what you get from Saint Vic is an excuse to stop searching.
Quote
The issues I look for in both versions and in PFAL are: The return of Christ, Abraham’s believing against hope or turning his hope into believing, Peter’s return to the epistles of Paul, The end-of-life scripture party Paul announced in II Timothy with Mark and Luke. I’m also interested in Moses sin, Paul caught away to the third heaven, Paul’s handling of intellectuals in Acts 17.
I think the PFAL text is totally sanitized.
Which is your right. But its not sanitized. As you've seen its corrupted with pre-emptive strikes, excuses for bad behavior, and text stolen from other people who did all the work
Quote
John S of the old CES thought similarly.
Don't care what John S thinks, he's not here.
Quote
People who lived off the texts living far from TWI interference have no complaints of the devil spirits posters here see in there like the David and Bathsheba account.
So your accusing others of having devil spirits, yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic? What was that you were saying about spiritual sniffers a few posts back?
Now, you've spent how much bandwidth on trying to prove to yourself you have no hero worship for Saint Vic. Did it work?
What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative. I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble...(SNIP)
Hey Grease Spotters,
I just have to say, it’s almost comical to see someone claim wierwille is not their hero and yet in the same paragraph whitewash wierwille (aka the plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… drunkard) so as to suggest he’s God’s chosen vessel “to deliver His Word to us sinners.” How nauseating and illogical is that ?! ...It would be counterproductive to all the work God did through Jesus Christ !
I mean…really? God made a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and drunkard - His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us…that’s not how God works! take for example:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God…I Corinthians 6: 9-11 ESV
You know, I understand that we’re all sinners – we’re human - - imperfect - - but what about all those verses that talk about Christians forsaking their sinful habits…we're not just sinners now - - we're redeemed sinners - and God expects us to act like it! Like in the above passage quoted – it notes in verse 11 "and such WERE some of you…” – past tense. wierwille THE hypocrite was an unrepentant sinner – a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and a drunkard until the day he died...folks that want to put wierwille on the same plane as any of those who wrote the scriptures need to show chapter and verse where God authorizes an unrepentant willful unconscionable sinner to deliver his message to believers. Show me anywhere in the Bible where God endorsed hypocrites !
talk about the more redundant lie...we've seen this time and again on various threads - wierwille-admirers intent on whitewashing the hypocrite!
Geez Louise ! promote wierwille as an authorized agent to deliver God’s message?! ...I guess a person’s hero-picker could be broken if it’s not already jacked-up with some troll-agenda or got sucked into the black hole of wierwille’s delusion…regardless I would recommend they seek professional counseling…cuz that’s just flat out weird to encourage folks to follow a sick fvck like wierwille…I'm starting to think this thread is about the growing pain of the wierwille-obsessed.
== == == ==
a side note to any folks still in TWI,
if any of this makes sense to you – then get out NOW !
Do not pass the cornucopia.
Get out now and don’t look back.
What are you waiting for? Do you expect Jesus Christ to personally knock you off your WOW-mobile? It’s a lot less painful or embarrassing to take heed of the light being shed on TWI’s dark underbelly by Grease Spot Café.
The Way International's dark legacy will continue to gnaw at your soul and render you totally ineffective to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do not fvck with toxic doctrine & practice…tell your cult-leadership they can kiss your a$$ goodbye.
Like myself, I imagine we all go in and out of fellowship. When we are in we can do some good. When we are out things go badly.
"In fellowship" or "out of fellowship" those are faulty constructs of twi. Can you define/explain those terms solely from the bible?
Have you ever heard them used regularly by anyone other than Wierwille or any of his followers?
19 hours ago, Mike said:
The words that Twinky missed, I reposted with color to show what she missed. I was on her side and said so. If she had gotten what I said she wouldn't have needed to ask me, especially in such an accusatory manner. Here's a replay:
How do you know Twinky "missed" any words? That's an assumption on your part, unless you had some written or oral communication with her that we don't know about... wherein you would have asked her for clarification. If you did not, then this goes back to your seeming unwillingness to learn the communication model I have shown you more than once. Do you not understand what I'm getting at by referencing magical thinking?
That's a different kind of presence you describe than kind his apostles experienced prior to the ascension.
And surely you look forward to his BEST kind of presence at his Return? His parousia presense should be better that what we have now, which is very good.
I'm not saying that what you enjoy now is deficient. God thinks it's good. But he's not present now like he was then and not like he will be some day soon.
Now you're talking as if YOU know what's right and Thomas is wrong.
That was a YUGE problem with Wierwille and the cult he started. He got everyone (who bought into the cult) thinking he and therefore they were the only ones who are ever right.
Your god is too small. Let him out of the box of your puny human imagination.
Mike said: No, he’s not my hero and I don't worship him.
So_crates said: Really, so why all the excuses for his evil behavior? Why tag everyone with "The Pure Evil" model. Sure signs of hero worship
Mike said:I have never offered such excuses. When a person is wrong they are wrong.I choose not to dive in and try to document every minute of VPW’s life looking for sin. I choose not to participate with those who do.
I know that God can and will forgive much faster and easier than we humans can do it. When we admit, agree, say the same thing that something is off the Word, God restores fellowship and can work with us again.
The Pure Evil model used here is a lazy oversimplification that defies reality and drifts into cartoon land. It completely overlooks how easy and free it is to get back into fellowship with God.
Here are a couple of articles on the same human mechanics involved in the Pure Evil model for VPW, but applied by different people in areas other than religion:
ThePatriots Aren't Evil. They're Just Losers. – Bloomberg
Mike said:The main thing I get from VPW is the "end of the road" for researching certain Bible verses. My focus is what happened 2000 years when Jesus Christ was first sent, and then ab-sent by God. I intensely look for him to soon be re-sent.
So_crates said:So Christ in you doesn't count as Christ being present?
Mike said:You just don’t seem to want to get it.
It all in how we define “presence.”
Are you saying that the Christ in you is just as good as his presence with the Apostles just prior to the Ascension?
Are you saying that the Christ in you is just as good as his presence will be at his Return?
If we define “present” with those pre-Ascension and post-Return qualities, then NO the Christ in you is NOT as “present” as that definition.
Re-define “presence” down a little and then your Christ in you looks a lot better. But then his pre-Ascension and post-Return presence is mottled in the background.
I think you and those who object to the “absent Christ” are not engaging in accurate logical conversation, but merely wielding loyalty slogans in parade formation. I love “Christ in you the hope of glory.” So, why hope if we got all of that “presence” now?
Mike said: There’s always so much uncertainty when reading a version of the Bible, and a difficult or intriguing verse often comes up. What certainty can be had when other versions say slightly or even radically different things?
So_crates said:The uncertainty is with you. Most of the people in this forum don't have that problem.
Mike said:Look at the footnotes at the bottom of the Greek Interlinear to glimpse some uncertainty. Then add to that the uncertainties of translating to English and transporting from Biblical culture to modern culture. Lots of middle men, lots of differing opinions = uncertainty.
Name a verse that's translated radically different ways.
Mike said:My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mike said:Then the uncertainty increases as we look at the semi-older Critical Greek manuscripts in the footnotes of a Greek Interlinear version. Then, one never knows when they will discover an ancient manuscript that pulls the whole rug our from under what was thought to be certain.
Biblical research has no 5 o’clock whistle telling you “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! YOU’VE REACHED THE END. YOU FOUND THE ANSWER. STOP RESEARCHING NOW, BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY DRIFT YOU AWAY FROM THE TRUTH YOU FOUND.”
So_crates said:We've already found manuscripts by contemporary authors that have sent the Saint Vic house of cards crashing down. After all, he stole the text from them.
Mike said:It looks like you missed my point.I was describing how uncertain all Biblical research can be. We never even know when to stop, it’s so uncertain. The only way Biblical research can find the truth, slogging through the adversary’s scrambling, is with God’s guidance.
Mike said:There’s just so much uncertainty in reading scholarly offerings (all Bible versions) and it’s a never ending process of checking up on things. I'm at the stage in my life where I'm weary of searching, and I just want something to discipline my mind to.
So_crates said:But somehow Saint Vic solved it all, and by robbing texts from evryone of those scholarly offerings your putting down, no less.
Mike said:No, his solution was to give up in 1942.
God had another plan in mind. God had been working with those other authors all along and set it up for VPW and for us to get blessed by it all. We would have never heard of all those ideas had it not been for the class. VPW knew how to distribute it.
Mike said: What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative.
So_crates said:Not authoritive in you mind. As many bible quotes on stealing, on not forcing yourself on women, and on not continuing in sin are repeatedly ignored by you. What's odd is many of these verses you ignore are also found in PLAF.
Mike said:No. I not only don’t ignore them, I apply them where I can, to my own life and not to someone else’s.
When I was RC part of the requirements for forgiveness from God was a prayer including the words “I firmly resolve, with the help of God’s grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.”
Checking on-line I just found out there are MANY different versions of The Act of Contrition, but my quote is what I was taught in the 1950s.
That was the hardest part of RC confession… to FIRMLY resolve… I sweated that word “firmly” out every single Saturday from age 6 to age 19, through the hurricane rages of puberty.
The second hardest part about gong to Saturday Confession is the beginning of the prayer: “…I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee…”Again, I sweated it out whether my sorrow was deep enough (heartily) and directed enough, not so much for few of hell, but for having OFFENDED my God.
It was hard.
I was SO relieved to see that the scriptures never made such a demands for forgiveness, other than just admitting it, agree with, say the same thing, homologeo.
Mike said:I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble.
We all knew from I John 1:8,10 that all ministers have sin. What kind of sin?Stealing nickel candy bars from the dime store?Before my first year in the ministry was completed I was glad to hear at the end of the Rock of Ages that VPW was not a goodie goodie and that we all were downers and outers together. I like that. I can relate to that.
So_crates said:Saying Saint Vic sinned is like saying sharks eat. We're not talking about nicking candy bars, we're talking about doing things that hurt and do psychological damage to other people. But hey he's your hero, so he has an all purpose excuse.
And let's all forget Romans 6:1b-2: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Paul didn't say go ahead sin, after all, it's all grace.
So how many times is a sin acceptable? Well, Saint Vic answered that. How many chances did he give a person before a face melting? Before they were marked and avoided?
Mike said:God keeps track of those numbers for other people. I do my best to simply minimize my own failings.
So_crates said:Then why don't you quote the text? Your more than happy to offer text from the Book of Bad Excuses for Saint Vic, but when it comes to quoting text from PLAF its crickets and tumbleweeds.
Mike said:I quoted many texts, both Bible verses and PFAL passages here 10 byears ago, and then again last year. I stopped that. It was too much. It was too “in your face” for people, so I quit. I switched to this conversational style to be less intrusive.
If you really need any quotes, let me know,and I’ll see what I can do.
It’s also a lot of work find all the quotes and prepare them for posting.
Mike said:What I get from VPW is some text that is solid and won’t change.
So_crates said:No, what you get from Saint Vic is an excuse to stop searching.
Mike said:No, again. My stopping searching first happened during the ministry meltdown 1986-1990. During the 90s I was befuddled by all my heros dropping one by one. I mean top ministry leaders that had been so smart in the good years, but after POP they were all mushbrained and nasty.
I reached the same point that VPW had reached in 1942, ready to give up, but I did not realize it at the time at all.VPW was surprised and halted his abandonment on hearing God’s promise. For me, I was surprised in 1998 to see things in the books that had eluded me, and in a few months I realized that God had ended the uncertainty for me.
What I got from written PFAL in 1998 was a reason to start researching again, this time researching within PFAL.
Before I had clumsily tried to research the ancient manuscripts with PFAL as a strong (but not only) guide. But now I can elegantly research the collaterals seeing English is my native tongue.
Mike said:The issues I look for in both versions and in PFAL are: The return of Christ, Abraham’s believing against hope or turning his hope into believing, Peter’s return to the epistles of Paul, The end-of-life scripture party Paul announced in II Timothy with Mark and Luke. I’m also interested in Moses sin, Paul caught away to the third heaven, Paul’s handling of intellectuals in Acts 17.
I think the PFAL text is totally sanitized.
So_crates said:Which is your right. But its not sanitized. As you've seen its corrupted with pre-emptive strikes, excuses for bad behavior, and text stolen from other people who did all the work
Mike said:John S of the old CES thought similarly.
So_crates said:Don't care what John S thinks, he's not here.
Mike said:You should care. If it weren’t for his releasing the adultery paper we probably would not be here posting.
That aside, you should also care it he (and socks) saw no such pre-emptive strike diddies (PSD).From hios adultery paper you should know that he’s an expert on what did actually pre-emtptively corrupt minds on the subject of sex.
I’m talking about the Appendixes to the adultery paper. Those dealt with the real PSDs of the ministry: the 14 excuses or rationalizations mostly guys used on girls. Those PSDs were everwhere. A few years before the JS paper on adultery I was a twig leader and we had a need to deal with those same PSDs.We handled 9 of them I think.
But NONE of us ever saw what you folks see in the PFAL David and Bathsheba story. That is you folks taking the Pure Evil model off to la la land. It’s all in your heads. You need some cleaning.
Mike said:People who lived off the texts living far from TWI interference have no complaints of the devil spirits which posters here see in there like the David and Bathsheba account.
So_crates said:So your accusing others of having devil spirits, yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic? What was that you were saying about spiritual sniffers a few posts back?
Mike said:For those OVERSENSITIVE about being called possessed, I added an implied word to my original post.
The devil spirits I referred to are the PSDs documented above.
You folks look at PFAL texts for boogie men and PSDs reminds me of LCM looking at a poor sap who mad the mistake of singing out loud a Broadway Show Tune
You wrote: “yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic?”Really! I’m supposed to operate a manifestation of the spirit by reading posts here to administer to situations that happened a thousand miles and 35 years ago?
No. I can’t see that well.
Now, you've spent how much bandwidth on trying to prove to yourself you have no hero worship for Saint Vic. Did it work?
You didn't prove anything to me.
Mike said:Wasn’t trying to prove anything. Just answering a few questions.
"In fellowship" or "out of fellowship" those are faulty constructs of twi. Can you define/explain those terms solely from the bible?
Have you ever heard them used regularly by anyone other than Wierwille or any of his followers?
I accepted those constructs from what I saw in the KJV and a little beyond. The fit for me. Maybe we could do a Doctrinal Thread on it if we had the time. It was a subject I had thought long and hard on as a RC prior to PFAL.
How do you know Twinky "missed" any words? That's an assumption on your part, unless you had some written or oral communication with her that we don't know about... wherein you would have asked her for clarification. If you did not, then this goes back to your seeming unwillingness to learn the communication model I have shown you more than once. Do you not understand what I'm getting at by referencing magical thinking?
Yes I know the term. I thought my words highlighted and others were enough if she had ears to hear. She was looking for me to either break so she could turn to the camera with that Kevin Neelin grinning reporter character. We used to call Ramon Burr's old TV character Perry Meathooks because he would dramatically break witnesses in court. I tried to talk to her as a person and she played lawyer on me.
Mike said:I have never offered such excuses. When a person is wrong they are wrong.I choose not to dive in and try to document every minute of VPW’s life looking for sin. I choose not to participate with those who do.
Yet you waste no time accusing others of doing something that exists only in your mind, i.e..The Pure Evil model.
It's like this: if I fall into your hero worship trap, then I have to make excuses for Saint Vic's evil acts that make Mr. Potatohead look like Stephen Hawkins. Because I realize he had more evil in him then good, I can accept the evil as par for the course, without excuses.
I think you and those who object to the “absent Christ” are not engaging in accurate logical conversation,
Says the person who claims its acceptable to steal intellectual property, but not physical property.
Maybe you should check your logic and fix it before criticizing mine.
29 minutes ago, Mike said:
Mike said:God keeps track of those numbers for other people. I do my best to simply minimize my own failings.
You mean like when you judge others, like Twinky, of trying to trick you. Too bad your so steeped in hero worship you don't want to turn that judging on Saint Vic.
The bible says I have to forgive, there's nothing about forgetting the evil someone does
35 minutes ago, Mike said:
Mike said:I quoted many texts, both Bible verses and PFAL passages here 10 byears ago, and then again last year. I stopped that. It was too much. It was too “in your face” for people, so I quit. I switched to this conversational style to be less intrusive.
If you really need any quotes, let me know,and I’ll see what I can do.
It’s also a lot of work find all the quotes and prepare them for posting.
You wrote: “yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic?”Really! I’m supposed to operate a manifestation of the spirit by reading posts here to administer to situations that happened a thousand miles and 35 years ago?
>No. I can’t see that well.
I don't need to see that far back. Saint Vic's record speaks for itself.
Alcoholism=devil spirit
Sex addiction=devil spirit
Cancer= (according to Saint Vic) devil spirit
If I remember correctly, Saint Vic said anything you have no control over is a devil spirit.
So by Saint Vic's own admisssion he had devil spirits
Thomas said:Mike, my Christ is present inside of me, and in the sacrament of Holy Communion/Eucharist. So He isn't absent, no matter what Wierwille, Bullinger, or other Christian authors say. Touche!
*****
Mike said: That's a different kind of presence you describe than kind his apostles experienced prior to the ascension.
And surely you look forward to his BEST kind of presence at his Return? His parousia presense should be better that what we have now, which is very good.
I'm not saying that what you enjoy now is deficient. God thinks it's good. But he's not present now like he was then and not like he will be some day soon.
*****
Rocky said:Now you're talking as if YOU know what's right and Thomas is wrong.
That was a YUGE problem with Wierwille and the cult he started. He got everyone (who bought into the cult) thinking he and therefore they were the only ones who are ever right.
Your god is too small. Let him out of the box of your puny human imagination.
*****
Mike said: On second reading of Thomas’ post I see now he was only talking of one type of Christ within. Originally I thought he was posting that he had 2:Col 1:27 and Communion. Now it looks like only one, on second reading.
So, Rocky, your first line to me may have merit.
If Thomas is talking about a NON-pfal concept like the bodily presence of Christ in communion, then I would have to completely re-word my response to him.
I was responding to him as a pfal grad in pfal terminology.
Within that perspective I think I am right, and that the post-Ascension, pre-Return presence of Christ with us personally is a diminished presence, or an ab-sent condition compared to sent.
For Thomas to compare (with a Touche) his notion of Christ within with the pfal version is a WHOLE new topic.
***
As for your other comments, my God is big enough to let me entertain notions of other religions for comparison. As it is, my RC background gave me great familiarity with the bread form of Christ within. I regard that as a dead end, and choose not to waste time there.
So how shall we end this? You want me to roll over and join you in all your misery? You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model. I'm happy with my text. How shall we end it? I wonder if I'll cave? ...I wonder.
Yes I know the term. I thought my words highlighted and others were enough if she had ears to hear. She was looking for me to either break so she could turn to the camera with that Kevin Neelin grinning reporter character. We used to call Ramon Burr's old TV character Perry Meathooks because he would dramatically break witnesses in court. I tried to talk to her as a person and she played lawyer on me.
It sure doesn't look like you tried any such thing. When you say "I thought my words highlighted and others were enough if she had ears to hear," you're not trying to talk to her as a person. You're talking AT her as a thing. But you also clearly communicated that you put up your defensive wall when you perceived her writing in her lawyer voice.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
Within that perspective I think I am right, and that the post-Ascension, pre-Return presence of Christ with us personally is a diminished presence, or an ab-sent condition compared to sent.
As for your other comments, my God is big enough to let me entertain notions of other religions for comparison. As it is, my RC background gave me great familiarity with the bread form of Christ within. I regard that as a dead end, and choose not to waste time there.
Well Mike, we come back to EQ. Whether or not you're right (who am I to say), that YOU act like you're right (even if you are right) is not emotionally intelligent. You would do well to figure out that there are more effective ways to make your arguments AND to bring people around to seeing things (whether or not they end up agreeing with you) your way than by telling them that they are wrong and you are right.
It sure doesn't look like you tried any such thing. When you say "I thought my words highlighted and others were enough if she had ears to hear," you're not trying to talk to her as a person. You're talking AT her as a thing. But you also clearly communicated that you put up your defensive wall when you perceived her writing in her lawyer voice.
I can forget the issue if she can, and maybe eve if she can't. Going back and re-reading all that tangled mess is not something I care to do, but speak to her with civility I'm sure I can do. She's the one who stormed off. I'm not angry any more. That was DAYS ago, was it not?.
Mike, you ****, I told you I'm a lawyer because I don't want you to think you're dealing with a preschooler or person of no ability or English as a second language person whose words can be misunderstood. I missed nothing of your posts (unlike you missing practically everything of everyone else's). I learned to read early in life, and have learned to read what people say, very carefully.
I bring my thinking and exploratory skills to the way I consider the Bible, and very definitely when considering how people handle scriptures or proclaim "the Word." That's not limited to you; I pay attention to what people say in church and in other articles I read. It's called "critical thinking." Critical doesn't mean "doing down" or "picking holes in"; it means, exercising judgment. Testing out. Which God requires us to do: "Test all things, hold fast to what is good." Verses posted earlier.
However, you have misunderstood (wilfully) and use that information, self-disclosure, to say that everything I ask you is a lawyer's challenge. IT'S NOT, it's a believer's challenge and, believe it or not, done in a spirit and with a heart that invites you to think and to consider what is said.
You accuse anyone who challenges you of "not seeing your heart." Perhaps you should try to see someone else's heart. Oh, delete that. Try seeing someone else. Full stop. See other people, as people striving to do their best.
I haven't stormed off. Your passive-aggressiveness drives people away. (And if you look, you'll see I didn't get to put you on ignore, and have posted a few things since I said I'd put you on Ignore.)
Try this. Exercise your reasoning ability that God gave you (that VPW tried to take away) and you may learn a few things.
Meantime, I prefer to spend time (real time) with people who genuinely want to know God, serve Him, and explore his word and their own understanding, and who want to GROW in that understanding. Announcement: some of those people post in this very forum!
Iron sharpens iron; dialoguing with people who seek a real understanding of God helps both/all. But banging one's head against a brick wall brings a headache. If one banged a sword against a wall (instead of rubbing along a sharpening iron), the result would be a dull blade. So, repeat: I prefer to spend time with people who genuinely want to know God.
(This is written in very short paragraphs to make it easy for you so that you don't miss any points: you often say you've missed something or can't find time to read whole posts.)
Ok. I hear you, and read the whole thing. I can’t blame you, and wish you well with those whom you are able to help.
Just to clarify, I'm very familiar with critical thinking, and in many areas besides religion. I applied critical thinking to everything PFAL and TWI from my start in the ministry, all through my stay, and then for ten more years past my exit.
In fact, I often regretted how much I withdrew from commitments because of this critical thinking. I often thought I was flakey and sometimes leaders would reinforce that self doubt.
I was very careful in how I slowly made commitments, and was able to withdraw when commitments were not right or changing.
I agree critical thinking is good, and somehow I dodged it being takenaway from me. I did leave HQ after a little more than 2 years, and I resisted leaderships requests that I stay until the ROA changeover of personnel. I left in May, they wanted me to stay to August. I was an independent critical thinker, and it often got me in trouble.
It was only in 1998 that I suspended my critical thinking (in one area only) due to many persuasive factors. One of the least profound, but most practical of these factors was I had hit 50 years old and thought my search should be over, and I should just knuckle down and focus on disciplining my mind to the one best presentation of truth for the rest of my life. I had found a system that worked and was bigger than me. It was just written PFAL.
***
Suspending critical thinking happens in science. When a law is discovered that’s what it means; the law is bowed down to instead of criticized as possibly not true. The discovery of a law is a rare event, though. Most of the time critical thinking is useful. But once a law is found, the criticism turns to total homage.
A similar thing holds for a closed mind. Usually a closed mind is not so good a practice. Searching for truth requires an open mind.However, once truth IS found (for one element) then an open mind here can only allow in error. Closed minds in limited areas sometimes are good.
If you find something that is a law, and is perfect, please let me know.I found something perfect, and I let people know.
Well, one thing for sure: you love lying to yourself.
Your hero worship of Saint Vic has obviously blinded you. Saint Vic tells you your happy and everyone else is miserable and you claim to be happy and assume everyone else is miserable
The sad truth is you obviously don't see how really miserable you are. Want proof?
How many times in the course of these threads have I whined about someone pouncing on me? Accused someone of judging me? Claimed someone was trying to trick me?
So who's the miserable one?
Hint: Your projecting your misery onto me.
You claim your happy with the text?
So where are all those text quotes? I would think after 12 years of study you'd have the collaterals memorized.
You claim PLAF has done so much for you.
So why do you have more fears than Bayer has aspirins?
So then why do you keep ignoring the facts?
Why make cornball excuses for obviously bad behavior?
Unlike you I'm happy with the truth. With the truth I don't have to ignore facts or make up cornball excuses. Nor do I have to whine about people pouncing on me, judging me, or attempting to trick me.
Your misery is written all over everything you write. Like the truth about Saint Vic, you refuse to see it.
Want proof? You've been trying to sell PLAF for over 12 years now, how many takers?
If you were so delieriously happy, people would be lined up outside your door. You think people your trying to sell can't see your misery? If it comes through cold type just imagine what it does in person.
Suspending critical thinking happens in science. When a law is discovered that’s what it means; the law is bowed down to instead of criticized as possibly not true. The discovery of a law is a rare event, though. Most of the time critical thinking is useful. But once a law is found, the criticism turns to total homage.
A similar thing holds for a closed mind. Usually a closed mind is not so good a practice. Searching for truth requires an open mind.However, once truth IS found (for one element) then an open mind here can only allow in error. Closed minds in limited areas sometimes are good.
Thank you for paraphrasing session #5.
"Stand! ...and don't budge."
If you think that concept is God Breathed, you might want to take a second look at what you're standing in.
Indoctrination: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically; as Wikipedia says "the precise boundary between education and indoctrination often lies in the eye of the beholder. Some distinguish indoctrination from education on the basis that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such the term may be used pejoratively or as a buzz word, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions".…I think a few good examples of an indoctrination process are PFAL , as well as the other classes and the various training programs like the way corps, WOW, and others.
Critical thinking: the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The process generally includes the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is akin to the scientific method , which is comprised of various techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge, and is based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Perhaps much of the scientific method could be summarized as a disciplined analysis through observation and experimentation. Grease Spot Café has many good examples of folks who have observed and experienced the enormous amount of falsehoods, lies, deception, manipulation, coercion, and destruction in anything that The Way International has ever had to offer.
PFAL is a big sedative…an insidious process to get students to let down their guard and absorb the lies of a con artist with intentions to plunder the lives of followers…PFAL it’s like roofies for the soul.
So how shall we end this? You want me to roll over and join you in all your misery? You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model. I'm happy with my text. How shall we end it? I wonder if I'll cave? ...I wonder.
I think it would be a great victory-for your sake- to get past this same FALSE DILEMMA that blocks your growth, but you seem determined to cling to it. Really, my offer to explain it to you is still a sincere one.
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Twinky
I do not see that this says, Love a book (not even a bible) - not love PFAL. I do see that it requires some practical application, otherwise, how else will you love your neighbour? By reading th
Twinky
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread
Twinky
Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI.
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Mike
I just wanted to bring this back up. Things get lost here, at least to me.
That post by socks I totally missed. I think he brought in a lot of reason and accurate memories.
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Mike
Sorry. I've lost track of what that was.
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So_crates
So, your able to scroll back to get your "Pure Evil" post but your not able to scroll back to figure out what the subject is.
Your dishonesty is showing.
Then you wonder why you have no credibility here.
How much do you think people are going to listen to someone that doesn't listen to them?
Do you think those pro-PLAF people think when they see you play head games like this?
See how easy it is:
And here are a few links on hero worship
The Danger of Hero Worship
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/hero-worship
Hero Worship Always Ends Poorly
https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/men-and-heroism/hero-worship-always-ends-poorly/
Seems Mike has fallen into the trap of hero worship. He claims otherwise, but the facts bear out the truth
Check the above hero worship links, note where they say people's heros do no wrong. Then look at his two rationalizations for unacceptable behavior.
Don't get me wrong, you have the right to worship anybody or anything you want to.
Just be honest about it.
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Mike
No, he’s not my hero and I don't worship him.
What I'm looking at intensely with focus is not VPW, nor pictures of him, nor recordings of his voice, not do I muse over events in his life, nor events where I was with him personally. That’s all minor stuff in my head, and sometimes years can go by with nothing going on in those categories.
The main thing I get from VPW is the "end of the road" for researching certain Bible verses. My focus is what happened 2000 years when Jesus Christ was first sent, and then ab-sent by God. I intensely look for him to soon be re-sent.
There’s always so much uncertainty when reading a version of the Bible, and a difficult or intriguing verse often comes up. What certainty can be had when other versions say slightly or even radically different things? Then the uncertainty increases as we look at the semi-older Critical Greek manuscripts in the footnotes of a Greek Interlinear version. Then, one never knows when they will discover an ancient manuscript that pulls the whole rug our from under what was thought to be certain.
Biblical research has no 5 o’clock whistle telling you “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! YOU’VE REACHED THE END. YOU FOUND THE ANSWER. STOP RESEARCHING NOW, BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY DRIFT YOU AWAY FROM THE TRUTH YOU FOUND.”
There’s just so much uncertainty in reading scholarly offerings (all Bible versions) and it’s a never ending process of checking up on things. I'm at the stage in my life where I'm weary of searching, and I just want something to discipline my mind to.
What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative. I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble.
We all knew from I John 1:8,10 that all ministers have sin. What kind of sin? Stealing nickel candy bars from the dime store? Before my first year in the ministry was completed I was glad to hear at the end of the Rock of Ages that VPW was not a goodie goodie and that we all were downers and outers together. I like that. I can relate to that.
But I’m in it MOSTLY for the text.
What I get from VPW is some text that is solid and won’t change.
The issues I look for in both versions and in PFAL are: The return of Christ, Abraham’s believing against hope or turning his hope into believing, Peter’s return to the epistles of Paul, The end-of-life scripture party Paul announced in II Timothy with Mark and Luke. I’m also interested in Moses sin, Paul caught away to the third heaven, Paul’s handling of intellectuals in Acts 17.
I think the PFAL text is totally sanitized.
John S of the old CES thought similarly. People who lived off the texts living far from TWI interference have no complaints of the devil spirits posters here see in there like the David and Bathsheba account. Remember the softened approach suggested here by socks the other day on that.
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So_crates
Really, so why all the excuses for his evil behavior? Why tag everyone with "The Pure Evil" model. Sure signs of hero worship
I take it here you attempting to rationalize your position, as you always do. These are not signs of hero worship. Check the links I provided.
So Christ in you doesn't count as Christ being present?
The uncertainty is with you. Most of the people in this forum don't have that problem.
Name a verse that's translated radically different ways.
We've already found manuscripts by contemporary authors that have sent the Saint Vic house of cards crashing down. After all, he stole the text from them.
But somehow Saint Vic solved it all, and by robbing texts from evryone of those scholarly offerings your putting down, no less.
Not authoritive in you mind. As many bible quotes on stealing, on not forcing yourself on women, and on not continuing in sin are repeatedly ignored by you. What's odd is many of these verses you ignore are also found in PLAF.
Saying Saint Vic sinned is like saying sharks eat. We're not talking about nicking candy bars, we're talking about doing things that hurt and do psychological damage to other people. But hey he's your hero, so he has an all purpose excuse.
And let's all forget Romans 6:1b-2: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Paul didn't say go ahead sin, after all, it's all grace.
So how many times is a sin acceptable? Well, Saint Vic answered that. How many chances did he give a person before a face melting? Before they were marked and avoided?
Then why don't you quote the text? Your more than happy to offer text from the Book of Bad Excuses for Saint Vic, but when it comes to quoting text from PLAF its crickets and tumbleweeds.
No, what you get from Saint Vic is an excuse to stop searching.
Which is your right. But its not sanitized. As you've seen its corrupted with pre-emptive strikes, excuses for bad behavior, and text stolen from other people who did all the work
Don't care what John S thinks, he's not here.
So your accusing others of having devil spirits, yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic? What was that you were saying about spiritual sniffers a few posts back?
Now, you've spent how much bandwidth on trying to prove to yourself you have no hero worship for Saint Vic. Did it work?
You didn't prove anything to me.
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T-Bone
Hey Grease Spotters,
I just have to say, it’s almost comical to see someone claim wierwille is not their hero and yet in the same paragraph whitewash wierwille (aka the plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… drunkard) so as to suggest he’s God’s chosen vessel “to deliver His Word to us sinners.” How nauseating and illogical is that ?! ...It would be counterproductive to all the work God did through Jesus Christ !
I mean…really? God made a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and drunkard - His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us…that’s not how God works! take for example:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God…I Corinthians 6: 9-11 ESV
You know, I understand that we’re all sinners – we’re human - - imperfect - - but what about all those verses that talk about Christians forsaking their sinful habits…we're not just sinners now - - we're redeemed sinners - and God expects us to act like it! Like in the above passage quoted – it notes in verse 11 "and such WERE some of you…” – past tense. wierwille THE hypocrite was an unrepentant sinner – a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and a drunkard until the day he died...folks that want to put wierwille on the same plane as any of those who wrote the scriptures need to show chapter and verse where God authorizes an unrepentant willful unconscionable sinner to deliver his message to believers. Show me anywhere in the Bible where God endorsed hypocrites !
talk about the more redundant lie...we've seen this time and again on various threads - wierwille-admirers intent on whitewashing the hypocrite!
Geez Louise ! promote wierwille as an authorized agent to deliver God’s message?! ...I guess a person’s hero-picker could be broken if it’s not already jacked-up with some troll-agenda or got sucked into the black hole of wierwille’s delusion…regardless I would recommend they seek professional counseling…cuz that’s just flat out weird to encourage folks to follow a sick fvck like wierwille…I'm starting to think this thread is about the growing pain of the wierwille-obsessed.
== == == ==
a side note to any folks still in TWI,
if any of this makes sense to you – then get out NOW !
Do not pass the cornucopia.
Get out now and don’t look back.
What are you waiting for? Do you expect Jesus Christ to personally knock you off your WOW-mobile? It’s a lot less painful or embarrassing to take heed of the light being shed on TWI’s dark underbelly by Grease Spot Café.
The Way International's dark legacy will continue to gnaw at your soul and render you totally ineffective to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do not fvck with toxic doctrine & practice…tell your cult-leadership they can kiss your a$$ goodbye.
nuff said…love & peace
Edited by T-Boneformatting & clarity
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Rocky
"In fellowship" or "out of fellowship" those are faulty constructs of twi. Can you define/explain those terms solely from the bible?
Have you ever heard them used regularly by anyone other than Wierwille or any of his followers?
How do you know Twinky "missed" any words? That's an assumption on your part, unless you had some written or oral communication with her that we don't know about... wherein you would have asked her for clarification. If you did not, then this goes back to your seeming unwillingness to learn the communication model I have shown you more than once. Do you not understand what I'm getting at by referencing magical thinking?
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Rocky
Now you're talking as if YOU know what's right and Thomas is wrong.
That was a YUGE problem with Wierwille and the cult he started. He got everyone (who bought into the cult) thinking he and therefore they were the only ones who are ever right.
Your god is too small. Let him out of the box of your puny human imagination.
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Mike
*******************************************************
Mike said: No, he’s not my hero and I don't worship him.
So_crates said: Really, so why all the excuses for his evil behavior? Why tag everyone with "The Pure Evil" model. Sure signs of hero worship
Mike said: I have never offered such excuses. When a person is wrong they are wrong. I choose not to dive in and try to document every minute of VPW’s life looking for sin. I choose not to participate with those who do.
I know that God can and will forgive much faster and easier than we humans can do it. When we admit, agree, say the same thing that something is off the Word, God restores fellowship and can work with us again.
The Pure Evil model used here is a lazy oversimplification that defies reality and drifts into cartoon land. It completely overlooks how easy and free it is to get back into fellowship with God.
Here are a couple of articles on the same human mechanics involved in the Pure Evil model for VPW, but applied by different people in areas other than religion:
ThePatriots Aren't Evil. They're Just Losers. – Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-05/the-patriots-aren-t-evil-they-re-just-losers
***
The good guy/bad guy myth - Catherine Nichols, Aeon Essays. — Jump The Fence
http://www.jumpthefence.com/news-2/2018/1/31/the-good-guybad-guy-myth-catherine-nichols-aeon-essays this link is a hop-scotch link to the full article, and tricky. Here is another link to tha same article:
https://cuencahighlife.com/good-guys-and-bad-guys-why-is-pop-culture-so-obsessed-with-making-the-distinction/
*******************************************************
Mike said: The main thing I get from VPW is the "end of the road" for researching certain Bible verses. My focus is what happened 2000 years when Jesus Christ was first sent, and then ab-sent by God. I intensely look for him to soon be re-sent.
So_crates said: So Christ in you doesn't count as Christ being present?
Mike said: You just don’t seem to want to get it.
It all in how we define “presence.”
Are you saying that the Christ in you is just as good as his presence with the Apostles just prior to the Ascension?
Are you saying that the Christ in you is just as good as his presence will be at his Return?
If we define “present” with those pre-Ascension and post-Return qualities, then NO the Christ in you is NOT as “present” as that definition.
Re-define “presence” down a little and then your Christ in you looks a lot better. But then his pre-Ascension and post-Return presence is mottled in the background.
I think you and those who object to the “absent Christ” are not engaging in accurate logical conversation, but merely wielding loyalty slogans in parade formation. I love “Christ in you the hope of glory.” So, why hope if we got all of that “presence” now?
*******************************************************
Mike said: There’s always so much uncertainty when reading a version of the Bible, and a difficult or intriguing verse often comes up. What certainty can be had when other versions say slightly or even radically different things?
So_crates said: The uncertainty is with you. Most of the people in this forum don't have that problem.
Mike said: Look at the footnotes at the bottom of the Greek Interlinear to glimpse some uncertainty. Then add to that the uncertainties of translating to English and transporting from Biblical culture to modern culture. Lots of middle men, lots of differing opinions = uncertainty.
Name a verse that's translated radically different ways.
Mike said: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
*******************************************************
Mike said: Then the uncertainty increases as we look at the semi-older Critical Greek manuscripts in the footnotes of a Greek Interlinear version. Then, one never knows when they will discover an ancient manuscript that pulls the whole rug our from under what was thought to be certain.
Biblical research has no 5 o’clock whistle telling you “MISSION
So_crates said: We've already found manuscripts by contemporary authors that have sent the Saint Vic house of cards crashing down. After all, he stole the text from them.
Mike said: It looks like you missed my point. I was describing how uncertain all Biblical research can be. We never even know when to stop, it’s so uncertain. The only way Biblical research can find the truth, slogging through the adversary’s scrambling, is with God’s guidance.
*******************************************************
Mike said: There’s just so much uncertainty in reading scholarly offerings (all Bible versions) and it’s a never ending process of checking up on things. I'm at the stage in my life where I'm weary of searching, and I just want something to discipline my mind to.
So_crates said: But somehow Saint Vic solved it all, and by robbing texts from evryone of those scholarly offerings your putting down, no less.
Mike said: No, his solution was to give up in 1942.
God had another plan in mind. God had been working with those other authors all along and set it up for VPW and for us to get blessed by it all. We would have never heard of all those ideas had it not been for the class. VPW knew how to distribute it.
*******************************************************
Mike said: What I get from VPW is not a personal hero at all, but a text where I can say THIS is IT, no more searching, become this Word. I don’t get that from any version of the Bible alone, because they are not authoritative.
So_crates said: Not authoritive in you mind. As many bible quotes on stealing, on not forcing yourself on women, and on not continuing in sin are repeatedly ignored by you. What's odd is many of these verses you ignore are also found in PLAF.
Mike said: No. I not only don’t ignore them, I apply them where I can, to my own life and not to someone else’s.
When I was RC part of the requirements for forgiveness from God was a prayer including the words “I firmly resolve, with the help of God’s grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.”
Checking on-line I just found out there are MANY different versions of The Act of Contrition, but my quote is what I was taught in the 1950s.
That was the hardest part of RC confession… to FIRMLY resolve… I sweated that word “firmly” out every single Saturday from age 6 to age 19, through the hurricane rages of puberty.
The second hardest part about gong to Saturday Confession is the beginning of the prayer: “…I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee…” Again, I sweated it out whether my sorrow was deep enough (heartily) and directed enough, not so much for few of hell, but for having OFFENDED my God.
It was hard.
I was SO relieved to see that the scriptures never made such a demands for forgiveness, other than just admitting it, agree with, say the same thing, homologeo.
*******************************************************
Mike said: I believe God made a sinner His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us sinners. I like that. I’m not so sure I’d accept any other agent. If God gave us His Word via a goodie-goodie guy we'd just end up worshiping him. I like it that He pulled it off with a sinner, because it keeps us all humble.
We all knew from I John 1:8,10 that all ministers have sin. What kind of sin? Stealing nickel candy bars from the dime store? Before my first year in the ministry was completed I was glad to hear at the end of the Rock of Ages that VPW was not a goodie goodie and that we all were downers and outers together. I like that. I can relate to that.
So_crates said: Saying Saint Vic sinned is like saying sharks eat. We're not talking about nicking candy bars, we're talking about doing things that hurt and do psychological damage to other people. But hey he's your hero, so he has an all purpose excuse.
And let's all forget Romans 6:1b-2: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Paul didn't say go ahead sin, after all, it's all grace.
So how many times is a sin acceptable? Well, Saint Vic answered that. How many chances did he give a person before a face melting? Before they were marked and avoided?
Mike said: God keeps track of those numbers for other people. I do my best to simply minimize my own failings.
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Mike said: But I’m in it MOSTLY for the text.
So_crates said: Then why don't you quote the text? Your more than happy to offer text from the Book of Bad Excuses for Saint Vic, but when it comes to quoting text from PLAF its crickets and tumbleweeds.
Mike said: I quoted many texts, both Bible verses and PFAL passages here 10 byears ago, and then again last year. I stopped that. It was too much. It was too “in your face” for people, so I quit. I switched to this conversational style to be less intrusive.
If you really need any quotes, let me know, and I’ll see what I can do.
It’s also a lot of work find all the quotes and prepare them for posting.
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Mike said: What I get from VPW is some text that is solid and won’t change.
So_crates said: No, what you get from Saint Vic is an excuse to stop searching.
Mike said: No, again. My stopping searching first happened during the ministry meltdown 1986-1990. During the 90s I was befuddled by all my heros dropping one by one. I mean top ministry leaders that had been so smart in the good years, but after POP they were all mushbrained and nasty.
I reached the same point that VPW had reached in 1942, ready to give up, but I did not realize it at the time at all. VPW was surprised and halted his abandonment on hearing God’s promise. For me, I was surprised in 1998 to see things in the books that had eluded me, and in a few months I realized that God had ended the uncertainty for me.
What I got from written PFAL in 1998 was a reason to start researching again, this time researching within PFAL.
Before I had clumsily tried to research the ancient manuscripts with PFAL as a strong (but not only) guide. But now I can elegantly research the collaterals seeing English is my native tongue.
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Mike said: The issues I look for in both versions and in PFAL are: The return of Christ, Abraham’s believing against hope or turning his hope into believing, Peter’s return to the epistles of Paul, The end-of-life scripture party Paul announced in II Timothy with Mark and Luke. I’m also interested in Moses sin, Paul caught away to the third heaven, Paul’s handling of intellectuals in Acts 17.
I think the PFAL text is totally sanitized.
So_crates said: Which is your right. But its not sanitized. As you've seen its corrupted with pre-emptive strikes, excuses for bad behavior, and text stolen from other people who did all the work
Mike said: John S of the old CES thought similarly.
So_crates said: Don't care what John S thinks, he's not here.
Mike said: You should care. If it weren’t for his releasing the adultery paper we probably would not be here posting.
That aside, you should also care it he (and socks) saw no such pre-emptive strike diddies (PSD). From hios adultery paper you should know that he’s an expert on what did actually pre-emtptively corrupt minds on the subject of sex.
I’m talking about the Appendixes to the adultery paper. Those dealt with the real PSDs of the ministry: the 14 excuses or rationalizations mostly guys used on girls. Those PSDs were everwhere. A few years before the JS paper on adultery I was a twig leader and we had a need to deal with those same PSDs. We handled 9 of them I think.
But NONE of us ever saw what you folks see in the PFAL David and Bathsheba story. That is you folks taking the Pure Evil model off to la la land. It’s all in your heads. You need some cleaning.
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Mike said: People who lived off the texts living far from TWI interference have no complaints of the devil spirits which posters here see in there like the David and Bathsheba account.
So_crates said: So your accusing others of having devil spirits, yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic? What was that you were saying about spiritual sniffers a few posts back?
Mike said: For those OVERSENSITIVE about being called possessed, I added an implied word to my original post.
The devil spirits I referred to are the PSDs documented above.
You folks look at PFAL texts for boogie men and PSDs reminds me of LCM looking at a poor sap who mad the mistake of singing out loud a Broadway Show Tune
You wrote: “yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic?” Really! I’m supposed to operate a manifestation of the spirit by reading posts here to administer to situations that happened a thousand miles and 35 years ago?
No. I can’t see that well.
Now, you've spent how much bandwidth on trying to prove to yourself you have no hero worship for Saint Vic. Did it work?
You didn't prove anything to me.
Mike said: Wasn’t trying to prove anything. Just answering a few questions.
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Mike
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So_crates
Yet you waste no time accusing others of doing something that exists only in your mind, i.e..The Pure Evil model.
It's like this: if I fall into your hero worship trap, then I have to make excuses for Saint Vic's evil acts that make Mr. Potatohead look like Stephen Hawkins. Because I realize he had more evil in him then good, I can accept the evil as par for the course, without excuses.
And here are a few links on hero worship
The Danger of Hero Worship
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/hero-worship
Hero Worship Always Ends Poorly
https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/men-and-heroism/hero-worship-always-ends-poorly/
Says the person who claims its acceptable to steal intellectual property, but not physical property.
Maybe you should check your logic and fix it before criticizing mine.
You mean like when you judge others, like Twinky, of trying to trick you. Too bad your so steeped in hero worship you don't want to turn that judging on Saint Vic.
The bible says I have to forgive, there's nothing about forgetting the evil someone does
Yah, so unlike preparing this post.
Your dishonesty is showing again
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So_crates
This is a continuation of the above post
You wrote: “yet you can't see the devil spirits in Saint Vic?” Really! I’m supposed to operate a manifestation of the spirit by reading posts here to administer to situations that happened a thousand miles and 35 years ago?
>No. I can’t see that well.
I don't need to see that far back. Saint Vic's record speaks for itself.
Alcoholism=devil spirit
Sex addiction=devil spirit
Cancer= (according to Saint Vic) devil spirit
If I remember correctly, Saint Vic said anything you have no control over is a devil spirit.
So by Saint Vic's own admisssion he had devil spirits
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Mike
Thomas said: Mike, my Christ is present inside of me, and in the sacrament of Holy Communion/Eucharist. So He isn't absent, no matter what Wierwille, Bullinger, or other Christian authors say. Touche!
*****
Mike said: That's a different kind of presence you describe than kind his apostles experienced prior to the ascension.
And surely you look forward to his BEST kind of presence at his Return? His parousia presense should be better that what we have now, which is very good.
I'm not saying that what you enjoy now is deficient. God thinks it's good. But he's not present now like he was then and not like he will be some day soon.
*****
Rocky said: Now you're talking as if YOU know what's right and Thomas is wrong.
That was a YUGE problem with Wierwille and the cult he started. He got everyone (who bought into the cult) thinking he and therefore they were the only ones who are ever right.
Your god is too small. Let him out of the box of your puny human imagination.
*****
Mike said: On second reading of Thomas’ post I see now he was only talking of one type of Christ within. Originally I thought he was posting that he had 2: Col 1:27 and Communion. Now it looks like only one, on second reading.
So, Rocky, your first line to me may have merit.
If Thomas is talking about a NON-pfal concept like the bodily presence of Christ in communion, then I would have to completely re-word my response to him.
I was responding to him as a pfal grad in pfal terminology.
Within that perspective I think I am right, and that the post-Ascension, pre-Return presence of Christ with us personally is a diminished presence, or an ab-sent condition compared to sent.
For Thomas to compare (with a Touche) his notion of Christ within with the pfal version is a WHOLE new topic.
***
As for your other comments, my God is big enough to let me entertain notions of other religions for comparison. As it is, my RC background gave me great familiarity with the bread form of Christ within. I regard that as a dead end, and choose not to waste time there.
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Mike
So how shall we end this? You want me to roll over and join you in all your misery? You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model. I'm happy with my text. How shall we end it? I wonder if I'll cave? ...I wonder.
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Rocky
It sure doesn't look like you tried any such thing. When you say "I thought my words highlighted and others were enough if she had ears to hear," you're not trying to talk to her as a person. You're talking AT her as a thing. But you also clearly communicated that you put up your defensive wall when you perceived her writing in her lawyer voice.
Well Mike, we come back to EQ. Whether or not you're right (who am I to say), that YOU act like you're right (even if you are right) is not emotionally intelligent. You would do well to figure out that there are more effective ways to make your arguments AND to bring people around to seeing things (whether or not they end up agreeing with you) your way than by telling them that they are wrong and you are right.
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Mike
I can forget the issue if she can, and maybe eve if she can't. Going back and re-reading all that tangled mess is not something I care to do, but speak to her with civility I'm sure I can do. She's the one who stormed off. I'm not angry any more. That was DAYS ago, was it not?.
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Twinky
Mike, you ****, I told you I'm a lawyer because I don't want you to think you're dealing with a preschooler or person of no ability or English as a second language person whose words can be misunderstood. I missed nothing of your posts (unlike you missing practically everything of everyone else's). I learned to read early in life, and have learned to read what people say, very carefully.
I bring my thinking and exploratory skills to the way I consider the Bible, and very definitely when considering how people handle scriptures or proclaim "the Word." That's not limited to you; I pay attention to what people say in church and in other articles I read. It's called "critical thinking." Critical doesn't mean "doing down" or "picking holes in"; it means, exercising judgment. Testing out. Which God requires us to do: "Test all things, hold fast to what is good." Verses posted earlier.
However, you have misunderstood (wilfully) and use that information, self-disclosure, to say that everything I ask you is a lawyer's challenge. IT'S NOT, it's a believer's challenge and, believe it or not, done in a spirit and with a heart that invites you to think and to consider what is said.
You accuse anyone who challenges you of "not seeing your heart." Perhaps you should try to see someone else's heart. Oh, delete that. Try seeing someone else. Full stop. See other people, as people striving to do their best.
I haven't stormed off. Your passive-aggressiveness drives people away. (And if you look, you'll see I didn't get to put you on ignore, and have posted a few things since I said I'd put you on Ignore.)
Try this. Exercise your reasoning ability that God gave you (that VPW tried to take away) and you may learn a few things.
Meantime, I prefer to spend time (real time) with people who genuinely want to know God, serve Him, and explore his word and their own understanding, and who want to GROW in that understanding. Announcement: some of those people post in this very forum!
Iron sharpens iron; dialoguing with people who seek a real understanding of God helps both/all. But banging one's head against a brick wall brings a headache. If one banged a sword against a wall (instead of rubbing along a sharpening iron), the result would be a dull blade. So, repeat: I prefer to spend time with people who genuinely want to know God.
(This is written in very short paragraphs to make it easy for you so that you don't miss any points: you often say you've missed something or can't find time to read whole posts.)
Edited by TwinkyTrying to be helpful for Mike
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Mike
Ok. I hear you, and read the whole thing. I can’t blame you, and wish you well with those whom you are able to help.
Just to clarify, I'm very familiar with critical thinking, and in many areas besides religion. I applied critical thinking to everything PFAL and TWI from my start in the ministry, all through my stay, and then for ten more years past my exit.
In fact, I often regretted how much I withdrew from commitments because of this critical thinking. I often thought I was flakey and sometimes leaders would reinforce that self doubt.
I was very careful in how I slowly made commitments, and was able to withdraw when commitments were not right or changing.
I agree critical thinking is good, and somehow I dodged it being taken away from me. I did leave HQ after a little more than 2 years, and I resisted leaderships requests that I stay until the ROA changeover of personnel. I left in May, they wanted me to stay to August. I was an independent critical thinker, and it often got me in trouble.
It was only in 1998 that I suspended my critical thinking (in one area only) due to many persuasive factors. One of the least profound, but most practical of these factors was I had hit 50 years old and thought my search should be over, and I should just knuckle down and focus on disciplining my mind to the one best presentation of truth for the rest of my life. I had found a system that worked and was bigger than me. It was just written PFAL.
***
Suspending critical thinking happens in science. When a law is discovered that’s what it means; the law is bowed down to instead of criticized as possibly not true. The discovery of a law is a rare event, though. Most of the time critical thinking is useful. But once a law is found, the criticism turns to total homage.
A similar thing holds for a closed mind. Usually a closed mind is not so good a practice. Searching for truth requires an open mind. However, once truth IS found (for one element) then an open mind here can only allow in error. Closed minds in limited areas sometimes are good.
If you find something that is a law, and is perfect, please let me know. I found something perfect, and I let people know.
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Twinky
This wouldn't be your open (or closed, by your own admission) mind, would it?
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So_crates
Well, one thing for sure: you love lying to yourself.
Your hero worship of Saint Vic has obviously blinded you. Saint Vic tells you your happy and everyone else is miserable and you claim to be happy and assume everyone else is miserable
The sad truth is you obviously don't see how really miserable you are. Want proof?
How many times in the course of these threads have I whined about someone pouncing on me? Accused someone of judging me? Claimed someone was trying to trick me?
So who's the miserable one?
Hint: Your projecting your misery onto me.
You claim your happy with the text?
So where are all those text quotes? I would think after 12 years of study you'd have the collaterals memorized.
You claim PLAF has done so much for you.
So why do you have more fears than Bayer has aspirins?
So then why do you keep ignoring the facts?
Why make cornball excuses for obviously bad behavior?
Unlike you I'm happy with the truth. With the truth I don't have to ignore facts or make up cornball excuses. Nor do I have to whine about people pouncing on me, judging me, or attempting to trick me.
Your misery is written all over everything you write. Like the truth about Saint Vic, you refuse to see it.
Want proof? You've been trying to sell PLAF for over 12 years now, how many takers?
If you were so delieriously happy, people would be lined up outside your door. You think people your trying to sell can't see your misery? If it comes through cold type just imagine what it does in person.
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waysider
Thank you for paraphrasing session #5.
"Stand! ...and don't budge."
If you think that concept is God Breathed, you might want to take a second look at what you're standing in.
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T-Bone
Indoctrination: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically; as Wikipedia says "the precise boundary between education and indoctrination often lies in the eye of the beholder. Some distinguish indoctrination from education on the basis that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such the term may be used pejoratively or as a buzz word, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions".…I think a few good examples of an indoctrination process are PFAL , as well as the other classes and the various training programs like the way corps, WOW, and others.
Critical thinking: the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The process generally includes the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is akin to the scientific method , which is comprised of various techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge, and is based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Perhaps much of the scientific method could be summarized as a disciplined analysis through observation and experimentation. Grease Spot Café has many good examples of folks who have observed and experienced the enormous amount of falsehoods, lies, deception, manipulation, coercion, and destruction in anything that The Way International has ever had to offer.
PFAL is a big sedative…an insidious process to get students to let down their guard and absorb the lies of a con artist with intentions to plunder the lives of followers…PFAL it’s like roofies for the soul.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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WordWolf
I think it would be a great victory-for your sake- to get past this same FALSE DILEMMA that blocks your growth, but you seem determined to cling to it. Really, my offer to explain it to you is still a sincere one.
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waysider
Maybe this would be a good time to revisit the Concorde fallacy.
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