I’m trying to be as respectful as possible when I say this - what might help to keep your “freight train” on track and have some impact to gain credibility is to do a better job at being honest – like: don’t fabricate stories to impress others…answer direct questions…stay on point if you have something to contribute instead of changing the subject or focus of a discussion…don’t make claims without backing them up…and by all means DO express your opinions and be respectful of other folks’ opinions.
I hear you on this. Thank you. just read it a second time.
Now, that proof was pretty significant, even though it didn’t at all prove PFAL to actually BE Good-breathed.What my proof did show was the vpw had said over and over, right under our noses on tape and in print, that PFAL was God-breathed AND WE MISSED IT!
It begs the question: what else did we miss that is in the record?
No, that's what you claim Saint Vic said.
There a difference.
Between you claim and your proposed fact you have yet offered any proof.
There seems to be a little too much reading between the lines for me to accept your claim.
The reason I listed links to a few posters is so that you might get an idea of what someone’s hard-hitting style would actually look like - by example – in my opinion these folks are TRULY uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts…my intent wasn’t to challenge you to find another synonym for what you imagine your style is…my post was more along the lines of a reality check and not an increase-your-vocabulary exercise...take it for what it's worth - my tip on how to earn credibility.
I have already done that, a little here, and a lot in my own mind.
There are things I don't know about it, like it's exact boundaries. I mentioned this here. Examples: the Foreward to ADAN is written by Karen Martin, a very large quote from Kenyon in OMSW, the added Appendix of JCNG.
Another limitation(and posters were constantly missing this, so I repeated it about 6 times) was I was not able to prove that PFAL was God-breathed. I was only proving that vpw had CLAIMED it was.
Now, that proof was pretty significant, even though it didn’t at all prove PFAL to actually BE Good-breathed.What my proof did show was the vpw had said over and over, right under our noses on tape and in print, that PFAL was God-breathed AND WE MISSED IT!
It begs the question: what else did we miss that is in the record?
OK outside of my more jovial reference from the movie "Leap of Faith" starring Steve Martin,
I wanted to address this. You say that you have "already done that" with addressing the limitations of your mental model that PFAL is God-breathed. Here is your list:
Things written by other people like Karen Martin and Kenyon in VPW's written works (they potentially would not be God-breathed).
Can't prove it was God-breathed, just that VPW made big fat claims in PFAL kind of like the snow on the gas pumps to convince us subtly it was God-breathed.
To me it begs quite a different question:
"Why can't you identify more limitations of your mental model?"
VPW basically plagiarized the structure and content of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" from JE Stiles, the man VP said led him into speaking in tongues when Oral Roberts was unable to. Why couldn't he just publish Stiles work through a reprint of it via American Christian Press?
A local church I'm familiar with bases their beliefs and structure around the writings of a Christian man who is not attached to their church. The local pastor didn't steal his material, publish it as his own, drum up his image as "The Teacher", and try to build a cult, he attributed who the work and ideas the church was founded on were and are. Three of the Christian man's books are sold as part of the "introduction" small group class they offer. This church and many many others I am aware of utilize other Christian materials and attribute source and pay the authors. One example is Dave Ramsey is a popular guy in Christian churches, and they sell his "Financial Peace University" materials through their church. Again the local church didn't buy one copy of Ramsey's course, plagiarize it, and publish another one through their own printing press they owned.
But VPW did. You want to say JCPS is "God-breathed" when you can pick up a copy of Penworks biography working in the Way's research department and hear the exact accounts of how that book was written by 2 other authors and taken by VPW.
My feedback to you is that your mind itself and your rationalization are the greatest barrier to you being able to identify limitations of your mental model.
Now, that proof was pretty significant, even though it didn’t at all prove PFAL to actually BE Good-breathed.What my proof did show was the vpw had said over and over, right under our noses on tape and in print, that PFAL was God-breathed AND WE MISSED IT!
It begs the question: what else did we miss that is in the record?
I'll tell you what you missed - all the other red flags that wierwille was a delusional cult leader.
What is missing in your model is the simplicity to call evil what it is.
Yes. It is missing, because I don't want to apply it to my life.
I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good.
I don't want to spend too much time inventorying all the bad from others, especially 2nd and 3rd person distant, and especially if it's emotionally charged and even possibly exaggerated.
I'm not blaming you folks who do want to look at these things, but I'm just not joining in on that part of our common experience.
But I am telling you that if you want to relate to grads who, like me, were given a significant dose of the good, then altering the Pure Evil model might help.
I have a suggestion for your dealings with those leaving TWI, or had left long ago, or are still in.
I don't have any dealings with those leaving TWI. Why ever would you think I do? (Oh, don't answer that)
The reason they stayed in and got hurt is because there was genuine good there that kept them (us) in, holding noses to tolerate the stink.If you acknowledge that good with them, then they can let go of the bad easier.
No, they stayed because they thought it was of God. BUT IT WASN'T. There were some nice people, fired by their love for GOD not their love for TWI.
I think you folks can do better if you advance from the Pure Evil model to a more realistic model. The man did a lot of good when he walked in fellowship, and that is lost in your model of him.
For the nth time, Mike, this "Pure Evil" model is YOUR OWN CONSTRUCT and nobody else here gives it any credence whatsoever. Why don't you just give this a rest? Or even, listen to what people here have to say about your construct. Your destruct, rather.
Whatever good the man mayhave done is suspect, because his WHOLE LIFESTYLE is suspect.
I suggest if a realistic model, and not the Pure Evil one, were entertained then the GS community could help much better those older grads stuck in TWI’s influence.
If you look back at old threads, you'll find that the GS community HAS ALREADY HELPED VERY MANY PEOPLE to recover from the hurt inflicted by TWI.
And if you, Mike, adopt a realistic model, and not the "Pure Good" that you seem to have adopted, you might find that you could help much better those who are trying to escape TWI's influence. And not just those people - you could help much better those in the world who suffer so many difficulties in daily life.
Yes. It is missing, because I don't want to apply it to my life.
From what I've seen the only time you want to apply it at all is when you want to accuse people here at the forum of using YOUR Pure Evil model.
How do you know they're not talking of Saint Vic's evil using your checkerboard model? That is, when Saint Vic was out of fellowship (which was most of the time)?
Refresh my memory, what were you saying a few post ago about thinking evil about members of the household?
Quote
I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good.
So what your telling us here is that your unqualified to make a judgement on whether GSers are right or not about Saint Vic.
Your also telling me that you want to play ostrich and stick your head in the sand.
Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away.
So, why don't you read LOSING THE WAY, read ADULTRY AND SOUL STEALING
Then come back and tell me about Saint Vic.
It's just a suggestion...
Quote
I don't want to spend too much time inventorying all the bad from others, especially 2nd and 3rd person distant, and especially if it's emotionally charged and even possibly exaggerated.
In other words: don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.
Quote
I'm not blaming you folks who do want to look at these things, but I'm just not joining in on that part of our common experience.
But I am telling you that if you want to relate to grads who, like me, were given a significant dose of the good, then altering the Pure Evil model might help.
It's just a suggestion.
And your speaking for all the grads? On what authority?
How about we ask them what they think?
Grads, tell me this isn't how evil works:
From Dot Matrix on 2/3/2003 at 2:07 PM:
Quote
OLDS: Folks are picking at the "signs" that a girl gives when she means no. Personally, I find that ambiguous. And truly in a court of law it would not be very concrete. But again, it is not the issue.
The issue is not did the girls give little signs?. It is WHAT BIG SCAREY THINGS did VPW do to rape/sexually use these little girls? IF you have ever watched a show like Court TV or Unsolved Mysteries you have seen how a pedophile or sexual predator works. A man may befriend himself to the single mom. (After, he stalks and compiles information that THIS family can be set up ? single mom, lonely child, financial trouble in keeping babysitters) So, he befriends Mommy. Then, he offers to baby-sit. He starts by playing games like checkers or hide and seek. Then, he introduces a NEW game called ?touch? and another called ?ride the pony? Then, he tears the child from the Mother by building lack of trust in the parent and rebuilding trust in HIM. This insures that the kid will not tell.
Okay, so enter TWI. Most of these kids were 16- 19 years old and taking PFAL. Some were doing drugs all were seeking something more than they got at home. They were seeking something noble ? they sought GOD. VPW worked several ways. We were pulled away from our family as they were unbelievers. For instance, on the WOW field you could not go home.
Example: The first time he saw this young girl (one of the posters) she was a newbie at twig. VPW was naked in the bathroom and he left the door open even after he saw she was startled by his presence. (A weird thing for a minister to do. A weird thing for a father and husband to do to a 17 year old kid). Then, he parties with them offering them ?grown up? things like beer and Drambuie. He offers to take the girl to Indiana Campus if she is able to go. He gets his alone time and makes her feel special. Then, once on the coach out comes the booze?.. LET US ALL LOOK AT THE THINGS HE DID AND FORGET THE SIGNS THESE YOUNG GIRLS DID OR DID NOT DO. Who cares? I do not give a dam n if she was unable to speak from fright or if she just sat passively. What was this old fat guy doing to get these girls into this situation?
Here is another friend of mine. She was 16/17 years old at the Advanced class. She was so excited! And as she walked by the coach Chris asked her to come in the coach and meet VPW. She enters, overjoyed to meet the MOG! But he was naked! He asked her to give him a back rub. Chris told her ?VPW asked me to bring in the first pretty girl I saw.? Then, he rolled for a front rub and she turned beat red and got out of there.
Another girl was tormented by sexual misconduct in her own family. She goes into the corps and had to write a paper called From Birth to the Corps. She outlines the abuse! VPW sends for her and says something like, ?Ah honey, I read your paper! That is awful. You deserve to be loved not used.?
She relaxes and sits down. He hugs her and then begins to feel her up!!!!!! I do not care if she was too shocked to say NO or to run or give a signal. She was set up by an old evil man. A serial sexual predator..
If you do not like the term rape - OLDS ? then let us find something you are comfortable with. How about a serial sexual deviant? How about a sick-sick man? What you concede he was ?evil?? How about a sinner? You can pick whatever name you feel comfortable with. BUT PLEASE do not say that these girls (my friends) were looking for sex with this scanky old fart. Please do not insist these kids should have been able to handle a situation that was way beyond their abilities to handle.
Did you have a sister you can recall being 17? Olds, do you have kids?
Are they or have they been 17 years old? If someone invited them to church and then took an interest in them you might not suspect anything. Now, suppose YOUR kid came home and said that the minister gave her 3 beers and then felt her up? Or he took a shower and exposed himself to her? Or took off his clothes and asked for a back rub? Would you say, ?Well, honey you should have said no? If you did not say no then that was your fault!? Or would you go kick his fooking ....?
You can figure all this out on your own but at least give these kids, these little girls the same kindness and awareness you would give your own daughter. Just do that and if you still want to like VPW then go ahead. Just do not keep suggesting these ?kids? ?your daughter? or ?your son? would want an old minister to touch them.
See, you are thinking of Ex and me and Watered Garden and others as adults because we are now! We were not then. I tell you, if I had a daughter and she was 17/18 years old and some old minister acted like VPW did, I think I would have visited him with a gun or a police officer.
BTW, I am looking for a letter VPW wrote me. I complained about my corps assignment. He wrote to me something like "I wish your boobs secreted as much as your eyes do." How appropriate is that? I kept it incase I needed to proove he was an idiot. I will look for it and post the thing when I find it.
Yes. It is missing, because I don't want to apply it [the simplicity to call evil what it is] to my life.
I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good.
Mike, you don't need to WITNESS (by which I assume you mean observe, or perhaps be the object of) evil to know it. And to know what it is.
D'ya reckon Eva Braun thought Adolf Hitler was a nice man, and his actions could be separated from the Nazi regime? Would you look to Mein Kampf for guidance in life issues?
Or, bang up to the minute, d'ya suppose Jacob Zuma's six wives think he's a great guy, was great for the country of South Africa and did it a lot of good - despite the serious corruption charges that have forced him to resign from the presidency? Would you look to what he said (rather than what he did) for guidance in life issues?
You are surrounded here by a "great crowd of witnesses" whose evidence covers at least three decades of TWI history. Pretty much all of those witnesses attest to the dictatorship of and corruption within the regime instigated by a certain person. To persist in denying the evidence of these many witnesses is to say that they are at best delusional and at worst, outright liars; frauds, perhaps. You slap the witnesses in the face by continually denying their evidence; you insult and belittle them.
WHERE is your new-found empathy? Why can you not hear? Why can you not see?
Does Gen 3:1-13 apply in your case?
Then the Lord God said to Mike, “What is this you have done?” Mike might have said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” But he didn't, because he still doesn't see that he has been deceived.
Have a good look, Mike. Who has deceived you? The great crowd of witnesses here quietly drinking coffee, or the person who's been nicking the toilet paper?
Yes. It is missing, because I don't want to apply it to my life.
I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good.
I don't want to spend too much time inventorying all the bad from others, especially 2nd and 3rd person distant, and especially if it's emotionally charged and even possibly exaggerated.
I'm not blaming you folks who do want to look at these things, but I'm just not joining in on that part of our common experience.
But I am telling you that if you want to relate to grads who, like me, were given a significant dose of the good, then altering the Pure Evil model might help.
It's just a suggestion.
So because you don't want to call evil in your life evil, you construct this strange idea that everyone else around you functions on a "Pure Evil" model of whatever we are discussing and specifically the Way?
No they don't.
Also, your statement "I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good."
That's your doctrinal error. The scriptures instruct even in PFAL to "prove all thing and hold fast to that which is good". not "look only at the good". That is a delusional Pollyanna interpretation of straight scripture even out of PFAL. And you are asking all of us what we are missing from the teaching records of PFAL? Physician heal thyself.
BTW, So_crates, thanks for the excathedra link. Does she still come by here? We both had a pretty strict RC background, and I could see it in lots of her posts. I could relate to her on that basis. I have seen significant pieces of her story in the past, but not a whole thread.
I am slowly reading penworks book. Someone mentioned she has some material on the research dept and one of the books. That gives me reason to speed up the reading.
***
I've never been a subscriber of the Pure Good model of vpw. My opinion of him has gone up and down a lot, but it never went to the level of worship. Just never.
I did see plenty of people who were into worshiping him back in the 70s, and in a number of ways, but I totally resisted it. It looked dangerous. I was into finding any mistakes he made, and that was my primary attitude all through. Wow! I sure got a lot of condemnation for that attitude from a few select Corps vpw worshipers.
***
A theory I have is that the ones who worshiped vpw the most are probably now the ones who feel most negatively toward him most. I can understand that. How does that theory fit with you folks? Did you folks ever find yourself thinking he was Pure Good or even anything close?
A theory I have is that the ones who worshiped vpw the most are probably now the ones who feel most negatively toward him most. I can understand that. How does that theory fit with you folks?
Not at all. So your theory is shot.
Quote
Did you folks ever find yourself thinking he was Pure Good or even anything close?
I didn't find him impressive. Nor did I have any desire to be like him. Nor did I ever imitate him.
People would often talk of his charisma and I'd always think to myself, What charisma?
19 minutes ago, Mike said:
I've never been a subscriber of the Pure Good model of vpw.
So you say.
I can think of good things Saint Vic's done. Can you tell me an evil thing he's done?
I can think of good things Saint Vic's done. Can you tell me an evil thing he's done?
I thought he did wrong by strongly urging Corps members to only marry Corps. I think there were other ways he contributed to Corps elitism, and they strongly degraded the mystery on the field. But I haven't thought about my gripes against him for many years. I had to think for a long time to come up with that. I had been very lucky in insulating myself from the negatives, and as a result many have faded in memory. .
.... Just remembered another one.....On a SNS tape he told of an incident where a gasoline station attendant tried to give him the wrong change or something like that. VPW said he got revelation and nailed him. I thought BS! What was the profit to the Body? I hoped the gas station attendant knew how to handle it. I mentioned weeks ago I sometimes thought he was a jerk. I thought he was corny but likeable in the film class, but in person he seemed distant at best. The last time I saw him, at an AC here in San Diego, him he looked defeated and beat.
I don't deny the bad; it's guaranteed in I John 1:18.
What is missing in your model is the complexity that there was some extreme good done for a lot of people.
Actually one of several models I’ve been using (ever since I came to Grease Spot some 12 years ago) is a biblical model – where my reference points are the passages that instruct Christians on how to spot a false prophet, a false teacher, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a religious hypocrite, etc. other conceptual models are just as valid to help one know and understand how cults and cult leaders work – such as a psychological approach, or sociological, intellectual, historical just to name a few.
some of these approaches can be observed by the examples / links within my earlier post (see quoted below) of truly hard-hitting posters who are uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts:
10 hours ago, T-Bone said:
(SNIP)...
As examples of some hard-hitting posters being uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts, you might want to check out these posts:
Your claim of Grease Spotters using a “pure evil” model often hits me as nothing more than a straw man fallacy – where a person distorts, exaggerates or misrepresents what others have said in an effort to make it easier for the person to refute it all.
But I think I understand what you’re saying about missing the complexities of the bigger picture (and I’ll get to that in a minute) – but what I think you’re missing is how really simple this process of discernment is:
Matthew 7 on how to properly judge others and not being hypocritical, identifying false prophets by their fruit, and identifying true followers of the Lord.
Matthew 23 talks about the ways of religious hypocrites, the double standard they employ.
II Peter 2 talks about false prophets and teachers who use insidious doctrines, follow their sensualities and exploit their followers.
== == ==
Complexities:
Nowhere in scripture is the Christian ever encouraged to look for and cling to any of the supposedly good things of these false teachers and hypocrites. Now I will say this – I think some Christians have a hard time seeing the hypocrisy of wierwille because of their fondness for scripture – especially if PFAL / wierwille first introduced them to the Bible and/or serious Bible study…I can relate to that – being raised Roman Catholic, my experience was mostly with religious ceremony, Latin phrases, no knowledge of what was in the Bible / zero doctrine unless you count catechism…
For me, PFAL was like taking swimming lessons from a really bad instructor; wierwille didn’t really know how to swim but I guess his display of overconfidence encouraged me to jump in the pool – after the class I enjoyed reading the Bible – used to read it all the way through several times a year…but if PFAL was swimming lessons – then life is the actual test to see if you can sink or swim…and honestly it was pretty much sink for most of my TWI involvement…
I say that because a doctrine or theory may sound really cool but it’s not really worth much until it’s put into practice – when the rubber meets the road. You know – does the theory work? I think those claims of benefits on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card were just that - claims…they didn’t really work…when the rubber meets the road - it goes nowhere …a lot of the stuff promised in PFAL kinda makes me think of the dead-man’s float I learned at day camp (CYO Day Camp - - oh boy! ). The fact that they called it the DEAD man’s float still bothers me to this day…does that mean the poor guy didn’t learn to swim? ... but anyway I digress…the dead-man’s float is taught to beginning swimmers – you get in a prone floating position – face down in the water – your legs are extended back and your arms forward…and you just float…you don’t go anyway. Now you can imagine yourself as a great swimmer but the dead-man’s float will never win a gold medal in the Olympics…maybe in curling…if you were the stone and liked getting pushed around.
Jesus addressed the issue of hypocrisy:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice… Matthew 23: 1-3 ESV
…And I think this is where a lot of TWI followers act as if they are mentally incapacitated if someone challenges wierwille’s man-of-god persona. To a lot of the general public, wierwille’s sermon on the love of God / I Corinthians 13 is solid gold and it is inconceivable to them that wierwille had a double standard going on...in that regard you might want to check out a certain post on how was your identity changed thread ....the essence of what he taught and modeled by example to the way corps was that the Bible’s moral code of things like don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery really only applies to the spiritually immature; you don’t hear about that in PFAL – where in an early session he makes a big deal over the two great commandments – love God and neighbor.
Another thing about complexities and I think you have a valid point there, Mike - i agree - we should look at the good....and the bad...and all points in between – in trying to sort through my TWI experience – I think it is essential to survival that I have a healthy attitude while in the process of sorting it all out. That’s learning to accept it all – the good and bad experiences, successes, failures, insights, emotions, etc. as part of life. A great thread to check out is cult survivors: the duality of life
life is complex...and sometimes we want to shy away from the ugly uncomfortable awkward parts of reality...we want to cling to the familiar and the comfortable...but i think a healthy attitude looks at the whole enchilada...now that doesn't mean you have to eat it all at once ....take it one bite at a time ...and remember to let your food settle before you start thinking about desert - my mom taught me that...
...dear, Grease Spotters, love and peace…and have a good night.
Another thing about complexities and I think you have a valid point there, Mike - i agree - we should look at the good....and the bad...and all points in between – in trying to sort through my TWI experience – I think it is essential to survival that I have a healthy attitude while in the process of sorting it all out. That’s learning to accept it all – the good and bad experiences, successes, failures, insights, emotions, etc. as part of life. A great thread to check out is cult survivors: the duality of life
life is complex...and sometimes we want to shy away from the ugly uncomfortable awkward parts of reality...we want to cling to the familiar and the comfortable...but i think a healthy attitude looks at the whole enchilada...now that doesn't mean you have to eat it all at once ....take it one bite at a time ...and remember to let your food settle before you start thinking about desert - my mom taught me that...
...dear, Grease Spotters, love and peace…and have a good night.
Love and peace to you too T-Bone.
I can see you deeply considered what I was suggesting.
How I love the way Mike picks and chooses what he will write about. Ignores me as usual, except when he thinks I support some point of his. Which is inevitably an untrue assumption by him.
At least from a brick wall there's a possibility of an echo.
How I love the way Mike picks and chooses what he will write about. Ignores me as usual, except when he thinks I support some point of his. Which is inevitably an untrue assumption by him.
At least from a brick wall there's a possibility of an echo.
Please believe me that if I had the time and energy I'd pick and choose them all. It's just beyond my abilities to answer everything. There's too much. I give it valiant efforts sometimes. Other times I have less to offer.
What would you like me to address? I have a little time tonight.
Mike, try reading my two posts of 10 hrs ago (higher up this same page 12).
I did read them. There a lot of details to your posts. There's a lot of details to all the answers I'd like to compose. But THAT much time I don't have .... just tonight.
If you could bring up the one biggest one that would help me a lot.
I am literally limited to reading with one eye shut. I just got new glasses that somewhat help, but I'm still learning to use them. It's a stereo vision and muscular coordination thing. I can type better than I can read, but then I have to proof read. I get headaches reading too much.
I did read them. There a lot of details to your posts. There's a lot of details to all the answers I'd like to compose. But THAT much time I don't have .... just tonight.
If you could bring up the one biggest one that would help me a lot.
I am literally limited to reading with one eye shut. I just got new glasses that somewhat help, but I'm still learning to use them. It's a stereo vision and muscular coordination thing. I can type better than I can read, but then I have to proof read. I get headaches reading too much.
I had an eye doctor try one time to give me a prescription where one eye was set for reading the other eye for distance vision... he did so without my permission. I made him change it. I don't believe that method helps at all. That might be why you get headaches from reading.
BTW, Twinky, that other thread "One Thing" that you started, and then got closed?
The main reason I didn't want to respond there was it was a totally new topic for me, and I didn't want the distraction from my campaign. HOWEVER, I did take your challenge to heart. I started a little note on the subject, and then slowly added items to the growing list of benefits I have received from PFAL. I'm slowly composing, in my head, some detail now.
But what do I do now with this? I'm trying to wind down my involvement here to a mere trickle, but that's difficult. When I post too many responses and demands seem to always happen. Maybe later. I'm in no rush.
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Twinky
I do not see that this says, Love a book (not even a bible) - not love PFAL. I do see that it requires some practical application, otherwise, how else will you love your neighbour? By reading th
Twinky
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread
Twinky
Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI.
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Mike
I hear you on this. Thank you. just read it a second time.
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So_crates
No, that's what you claim Saint Vic said.
There a difference.
Between you claim and your proposed fact you have yet offered any proof.
There seems to be a little too much reading between the lines for me to accept your claim.
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T-Bone
The reason I listed links to a few posters is so that you might get an idea of what someone’s hard-hitting style would actually look like - by example – in my opinion these folks are TRULY uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts…my intent wasn’t to challenge you to find another synonym for what you imagine your style is…my post was more along the lines of a reality check and not an increase-your-vocabulary exercise...take it for what it's worth - my tip on how to earn credibility.
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chockfull
OK outside of my more jovial reference from the movie "Leap of Faith" starring Steve Martin,
I wanted to address this. You say that you have "already done that" with addressing the limitations of your mental model that PFAL is God-breathed. Here is your list:
To me it begs quite a different question:
"Why can't you identify more limitations of your mental model?"
VPW basically plagiarized the structure and content of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" from JE Stiles, the man VP said led him into speaking in tongues when Oral Roberts was unable to. Why couldn't he just publish Stiles work through a reprint of it via American Christian Press?
A local church I'm familiar with bases their beliefs and structure around the writings of a Christian man who is not attached to their church. The local pastor didn't steal his material, publish it as his own, drum up his image as "The Teacher", and try to build a cult, he attributed who the work and ideas the church was founded on were and are. Three of the Christian man's books are sold as part of the "introduction" small group class they offer. This church and many many others I am aware of utilize other Christian materials and attribute source and pay the authors. One example is Dave Ramsey is a popular guy in Christian churches, and they sell his "Financial Peace University" materials through their church. Again the local church didn't buy one copy of Ramsey's course, plagiarize it, and publish another one through their own printing press they owned.
But VPW did. You want to say JCPS is "God-breathed" when you can pick up a copy of Penworks biography working in the Way's research department and hear the exact accounts of how that book was written by 2 other authors and taken by VPW.
My feedback to you is that your mind itself and your rationalization are the greatest barrier to you being able to identify limitations of your mental model.
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waysider
I fixed that for you.
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T-Bone
I'll tell you what you missed - all the other red flags that wierwille was a delusional cult leader.
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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Mike
Once again, back to the Pure Evil model.
I don't deny the bad; it's guaranteed in I John 1:18.
What is missing in your model is the complexity that there was some extreme good done for a lot of people.
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chockfull
What is missing in your model is the simplicity to call evil what it is.
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Mike
Yes. It is missing, because I don't want to apply it to my life.
I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good.
I don't want to spend too much time inventorying all the bad from others, especially 2nd and 3rd person distant, and especially if it's emotionally charged and even possibly exaggerated.
I'm not blaming you folks who do want to look at these things, but I'm just not joining in on that part of our common experience.
But I am telling you that if you want to relate to grads who, like me, were given a significant dose of the good, then altering the Pure Evil model might help.
It's just a suggestion.
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Twinky
If you look back at old threads, you'll find that the GS community HAS ALREADY HELPED VERY MANY PEOPLE to recover from the hurt inflicted by TWI.
And if you, Mike, adopt a realistic model, and not the "Pure Good" that you seem to have adopted, you might find that you could help much better those who are trying to escape TWI's influence. And not just those people - you could help much better those in the world who suffer so many difficulties in daily life.
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So_crates
From what I've seen the only time you want to apply it at all is when you want to accuse people here at the forum of using YOUR Pure Evil model.
How do you know they're not talking of Saint Vic's evil using your checkerboard model? That is, when Saint Vic was out of fellowship (which was most of the time)?
Refresh my memory, what were you saying a few post ago about thinking evil about members of the household?
So what your telling us here is that your unqualified to make a judgement on whether GSers are right or not about Saint Vic.
Your also telling me that you want to play ostrich and stick your head in the sand.
Ignoring facts doesn't make them go away.
So, why don't you read LOSING THE WAY, read ADULTRY AND SOUL STEALING
Then come back and tell me about Saint Vic.
It's just a suggestion...
In other words: don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.
And your speaking for all the grads? On what authority?
How about we ask them what they think?
Grads, tell me this isn't how evil works:
From Dot Matrix on 2/3/2003 at 2:07 PM:
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Twinky
Mike, you don't need to WITNESS (by which I assume you mean observe, or perhaps be the object of) evil to know it. And to know what it is.
D'ya reckon Eva Braun thought Adolf Hitler was a nice man, and his actions could be separated from the Nazi regime? Would you look to Mein Kampf for guidance in life issues?
Or, bang up to the minute, d'ya suppose Jacob Zuma's six wives think he's a great guy, was great for the country of South Africa and did it a lot of good - despite the serious corruption charges that have forced him to resign from the presidency? Would you look to what he said (rather than what he did) for guidance in life issues?
You are surrounded here by a "great crowd of witnesses" whose evidence covers at least three decades of TWI history. Pretty much all of those witnesses attest to the dictatorship of and corruption within the regime instigated by a certain person. To persist in denying the evidence of these many witnesses is to say that they are at best delusional and at worst, outright liars; frauds, perhaps. You slap the witnesses in the face by continually denying their evidence; you insult and belittle them.
WHERE is your new-found empathy? Why can you not hear? Why can you not see?
Does Gen 3:1-13 apply in your case?
Then the Lord God said to Mike, “What is this you have done?” Mike might have said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” But he didn't, because he still doesn't see that he has been deceived.
Have a good look, Mike. Who has deceived you? The great crowd of witnesses here quietly drinking coffee, or the person who's been nicking the toilet paper?
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chockfull
So because you don't want to call evil in your life evil, you construct this strange idea that everyone else around you functions on a "Pure Evil" model of whatever we are discussing and specifically the Way?
No they don't.
Also, your statement "I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good."
That's your doctrinal error. The scriptures instruct even in PFAL to "prove all thing and hold fast to that which is good". not "look only at the good". That is a delusional Pollyanna interpretation of straight scripture even out of PFAL. And you are asking all of us what we are missing from the teaching records of PFAL? Physician heal thyself.
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Mike
It was just a suggestion. I wont make it again.
***
BTW, So_crates, thanks for the excathedra link. Does she still come by here? We both had a pretty strict RC background, and I could see it in lots of her posts. I could relate to her on that basis. I have seen significant pieces of her story in the past, but not a whole thread.
I am slowly reading penworks book. Someone mentioned she has some material on the research dept and one of the books. That gives me reason to speed up the reading.
***
I've never been a subscriber of the Pure Good model of vpw. My opinion of him has gone up and down a lot, but it never went to the level of worship. Just never.
I did see plenty of people who were into worshiping him back in the 70s, and in a number of ways, but I totally resisted it. It looked dangerous. I was into finding any mistakes he made, and that was my primary attitude all through. Wow! I sure got a lot of condemnation for that attitude from a few select Corps vpw worshipers.
***
A theory I have is that the ones who worshiped vpw the most are probably now the ones who feel most negatively toward him most. I can understand that. How does that theory fit with you folks? Did you folks ever find yourself thinking he was Pure Good or even anything close?
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So_crates
Not at all. So your theory is shot.
I didn't find him impressive. Nor did I have any desire to be like him. Nor did I ever imitate him.
People would often talk of his charisma and I'd always think to myself, What charisma?
So you say.
I can think of good things Saint Vic's done. Can you tell me an evil thing he's done?
The hero worship/pure good model in action.
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Mike
I thought he did wrong by strongly urging Corps members to only marry Corps. I think there were other ways he contributed to Corps elitism, and they strongly degraded the mystery on the field. But I haven't thought about my gripes against him for many years. I had to think for a long time to come up with that. I had been very lucky in insulating myself from the negatives, and as a result many have faded in memory. .
.... Just remembered another one.....On a SNS tape he told of an incident where a gasoline station attendant tried to give him the wrong change or something like that. VPW said he got revelation and nailed him. I thought BS! What was the profit to the Body? I hoped the gas station attendant knew how to handle it. I mentioned weeks ago I sometimes thought he was a jerk. I thought he was corny but likeable in the film class, but in person he seemed distant at best. The last time I saw him, at an AC here in San Diego, him he looked defeated and beat.
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T-Bone
Actually one of several models I’ve been using (ever since I came to Grease Spot some 12 years ago) is a biblical model – where my reference points are the passages that instruct Christians on how to spot a false prophet, a false teacher, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a religious hypocrite, etc. other conceptual models are just as valid to help one know and understand how cults and cult leaders work – such as a psychological approach, or sociological, intellectual, historical just to name a few.
some of these approaches can be observed by the examples / links within my earlier post (see quoted below) of truly hard-hitting posters who are uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts:
Your claim of Grease Spotters using a “pure evil” model often hits me as nothing more than a straw man fallacy – where a person distorts, exaggerates or misrepresents what others have said in an effort to make it easier for the person to refute it all.
But I think I understand what you’re saying about missing the complexities of the bigger picture (and I’ll get to that in a minute) – but what I think you’re missing is how really simple this process of discernment is:
Matthew 7 on how to properly judge others and not being hypocritical, identifying false prophets by their fruit, and identifying true followers of the Lord.
Matthew 23 talks about the ways of religious hypocrites, the double standard they employ.
II Peter 2 talks about false prophets and teachers who use insidious doctrines, follow their sensualities and exploit their followers.
== == ==
Complexities:
Nowhere in scripture is the Christian ever encouraged to look for and cling to any of the supposedly good things of these false teachers and hypocrites. Now I will say this – I think some Christians have a hard time seeing the hypocrisy of wierwille because of their fondness for scripture – especially if PFAL / wierwille first introduced them to the Bible and/or serious Bible study…I can relate to that – being raised Roman Catholic, my experience was mostly with religious ceremony, Latin phrases, no knowledge of what was in the Bible / zero doctrine unless you count catechism…
For me, PFAL was like taking swimming lessons from a really bad instructor; wierwille didn’t really know how to swim but I guess his display of overconfidence encouraged me to jump in the pool – after the class I enjoyed reading the Bible – used to read it all the way through several times a year…but if PFAL was swimming lessons – then life is the actual test to see if you can sink or swim…and honestly it was pretty much sink for most of my TWI involvement…
I say that because a doctrine or theory may sound really cool but it’s not really worth much until it’s put into practice – when the rubber meets the road. You know – does the theory work? I think those claims of benefits on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card were just that - claims…they didn’t really work…when the rubber meets the road - it goes nowhere …a lot of the stuff promised in PFAL kinda makes me think of the dead-man’s float I learned at day camp (CYO Day Camp - - oh boy!
). The fact that they called it the DEAD man’s float still bothers me to this day…does that mean the poor guy didn’t learn to swim? 
... but anyway I digress…the dead-man’s float is taught to beginning swimmers – you get in a prone floating position – face down in the water – your legs are extended back and your arms forward…and you just float…you don’t go anyway. Now you can imagine yourself as a great swimmer but the dead-man’s float will never win a gold medal in the Olympics…maybe in curling…if you were the stone and liked getting pushed around. 
Jesus addressed the issue of hypocrisy:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice… Matthew 23: 1-3 ESV
…And I think this is where a lot of TWI followers act as if they are mentally incapacitated if someone challenges wierwille’s man-of-god persona. To a lot of the general public, wierwille’s sermon on the love of God / I Corinthians 13 is solid gold and it is inconceivable to them that wierwille had a double standard going on...in that regard you might want to check out a certain post on how was your identity changed thread ....the essence of what he taught and modeled by example to the way corps was that the Bible’s moral code of things like don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery really only applies to the spiritually immature; you don’t hear about that in PFAL – where in an early session he makes a big deal over the two great commandments – love God and neighbor.
Another thing about complexities and I think you have a valid point there, Mike - i agree - we should look at the good....and the bad...and all points in between
– in trying to sort through my TWI experience – I think it is essential to survival that I have a healthy attitude while in the process of sorting it all out. That’s learning to accept it all – the good and bad experiences, successes, failures, insights, emotions, etc. as part of life. A great thread to check out is cult survivors: the duality of life
life is complex...and sometimes we want to shy away from the ugly uncomfortable awkward parts of reality...we want to cling to the familiar and the comfortable...but i think a healthy attitude looks at the whole enchilada...now that doesn't mean you have to eat it all at once
....take it one bite at a time ...and remember to let your food settle before you start thinking about desert - my mom taught me that...
...dear, Grease Spotters, love and peace…and have a good night.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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Mike
Love and peace to you too T-Bone.
I can see you deeply considered what I was suggesting.
I'll save your post for future reference.
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Twinky
How I love the way Mike picks and chooses what he will write about. Ignores me as usual, except when he thinks I support some point of his. Which is inevitably an untrue assumption by him.
At least from a brick wall there's a possibility of an echo.
Good post, as usual, T-Bone.
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Mike
Please believe me that if I had the time and energy I'd pick and choose them all. It's just beyond my abilities to answer everything. There's too much. I give it valiant efforts sometimes. Other times I have less to offer.
What would you like me to address? I have a little time tonight.
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Twinky
Mike, try reading my two posts of 10 hrs ago (higher up this same page 12).
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Mike
I did read them. There a lot of details to your posts. There's a lot of details to all the answers I'd like to compose. But THAT much time I don't have .... just tonight.
If you could bring up the one biggest one that would help me a lot.
I am literally limited to reading with one eye shut. I just got new glasses that somewhat help, but I'm still learning to use them. It's a stereo vision and muscular coordination thing. I can type better than I can read, but then I have to proof read. I get headaches reading too much.
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Rocky
I had an eye doctor try one time to give me a prescription where one eye was set for reading the other eye for distance vision... he did so without my permission. I made him change it. I don't believe that method helps at all. That might be why you get headaches from reading.
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Mike
BTW, Twinky, that other thread "One Thing" that you started, and then got closed?
The main reason I didn't want to respond there was it was a totally new topic for me, and I didn't want the distraction from my campaign. HOWEVER, I did take your challenge to heart. I started a little note on the subject, and then slowly added items to the growing list of benefits I have received from PFAL. I'm slowly composing, in my head, some detail now.
But what do I do now with this? I'm trying to wind down my involvement here to a mere trickle, but that's difficult. When I post too many responses and demands seem to always happen. Maybe later. I'm in no rush.
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