Part of that nostalgia kick has been reading up on posters stories and other threads by the current frequent posters. In doing so I’ve come across lots of emotional reminders of the problems that happened at TWI. Most of those problems hit me much lighter than the others whose stories I was reading.
In general, I’ve come to realize that my nostalgia thrills are not worth it, seeing the commotion and stir that my posting has been. I really thought that after a10 or 12 year hiatus, things may have calmed down. They did not;some ways they are worse.
Some of the problems posters recounted that hit me hardest were in how families were disrupted.It reminded me of hurt grads, close friends of mine, of long ago who got ground up in the ministry machinery. I had forgotten their pain.
***
I think I was wrong in posting, seeing my topic causes grief. Grief causing was not my intention. I now feel it’s my moral duty to stop posting my message.I honestly thought the hostilities would calm down after a month of my recent posting. I was wrong. I honestly thought the hostilities would be GONE after my being gone for 10 years. I was wrong.
I don't intend for this to be or become a Mike-bashing or even a Mike-questioning thread, just a place where he can share his current journey through old threads, and only if he chooses.
Where are all the posters? I get the feeling everyone went on a GreaseSpot camp-out and I'm home alone here. Is this SuperBowl related?
No. I didn't watch the (American) football game. I boycott the NFL because it really is too violent and players almost always end up with chronic brain injury.
Anyway, Twinky said this: " I don't intend for this to be or become a Mike-bashing or even a Mike-questioning thread, just a place where he can share his current journey through old threads, and only if he chooses."
I suspect that if you do choose to share that journey through old threads, you might get some company. Otherwise, what's there for anyone else to say?
No. I didn't watch the (American) football game. I boycott the NFL because it really is too violent and players almost always end up with chronic brain injury.
Anyway, Twinky said this: " I don't intend for this to be or become a Mike-bashing or even a Mike-questioning thread, just a place where he can share his current journey through old threads, and only if he chooses."
I suspect that if you do choose to share that journey through old threads, you might get some company. Otherwise, what's there for anyone else to say?
I'm with you on football.
But where are all the posters? Why the lull in activity?
But where are all the posters? Why the lull in activity?
That's just how it is here. I don't know why. Some days are a flurry of activity and others are a snooze-fest. It's always been that way, to one degree or another. On a personal level, I still work a fulltime job. I don't have personal internet access there, either. And, no, I don't have a cell phone. I used to carry one, years ago, when I was on 24 hr. call. When you're required to carry one at all times, the novelty wears thin quickly. So, that's the story of why my posting is sometimes limited.
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread is for you to share how your understanding is growing.
Do be aware that most people haven't written "their story" in one place, but there may be many posts by a person on many threads over a long period that will give "their story". If you read all the posts by one poster, you'd get a little of "their story" but it'd take you a long time. (Rocky, whose post is immediately above this, has, I see, nearly 11,000 posts, some of which may embody his story, and other posts will be something flippant.)
People are not bitter, but some have suffered irremediable harm at the hands of "leadership" in TWI. There may have been much forgiveness of TWI, but that does not rectify the loss of a body part or the loss of a child or the damage to a marriage, which marriage might or might not survive. It does not rectify lost job opportunities, career development, financial hardship now caused by surrendering so much to (being coerced by) TWI. It does not rectify the missed opportunity to see a loved one before death, or repair damaged family/friend relationships. I fear for some of the children brought up in TWI who had been raised in a bullying and otherwise abusive atmosphere - raised with fear and not with love.
Most here will acknowledge some initial benefits, or deliverance, as you yourself do, delivered from the bondage of the RC church. Others talk of deliverance from addictions of various kinds. (One of my Corps sisters had been delivered from a life of drug addiction that led to prostitution, simply so that she could get her next fix. She had an amazing story to tell - and she gave the glory to God. Yes, she was helped by TWI, only God knows how.) However, too often the deliverance is a deliverance into deeper bondage and servitude; it's just less obvious.
So, if you are reading, and you now begin to understand this damage that has been caused, and to develop empathy for the victims, sufferers, abusees, call 'em what you will, it would be a pleasure to share your journey in understanding.
If it helps you, here's a brief snapshot. When I was cast out I fell into deepest despair. I was alienated from all my friends and family. All. Everyone. I had given up everything and everyone to follow this wonderful Godly ministry. I was on my way to crawl back over broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years of abject misery and (self-imposed) condemnation away from TWI. I was bright, confident and outgoing before I met a bunch of WoWs; now I was afraid of my own shadow and of every action, no matter how kind, that was shown towards me. I happened across GSC whilst looking for the zip code for TWI. I was totally appalled at the disrespect for this wonderful ministry. I could not believe what I was reading. This godly ministry would never allow these things to happen! They would stand up against sexual abuse, defend marriages, model Godly behavior.
Yet, the stories I read chimed with things I'd seen. The severe abuse that happened to me, I learned, wasn't personal as such, just part of the working pattern of TWI. What happened to me had happened to countless others, especially women, and very especially to smart women. I read much that shocked me to my core. And after that, the scales from my eyes and my heart, and God has worked hard to help and heal me. Loving gentle people in churches have helped me. Strangers in the street have been kind to me. Some friends and family relationships are restored, another significant one even more damaged. God has restored very much to me, so much I could weep at his great graciousness. And yet, my career has never recovered, and my longed-for children will never be born; I am now way past childbearing age.
Learn to see these stories, Mike, and you will genuinely be able to help people. I believe you have a heart to help and to show God's love to people. You can do that, but you MUST abandon your PFAL mindset because that doesn't deliver into freedom but into bondage. PFAL and TWI cannot be separated. If you argue otherwise, you haven't learned much from the "heart-rending stories."
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread is for you to share how your understanding is growing.
Hi Twinky,
Sorry, I’ve been rather scattered in my reading and in my posting lately, and this (as well as many other posts to me) completely slipped under my radar. I’ve been deep into some family problems, and a few medical issues on top of that. So, my GreasSpot time has been chaotic lately.
I haven’t even finished reading this whole post of yours I’m commenting on right now, but I will eventually.
***
As I mentioned I’ve been reading in many old and current threads here, as well as reading my old GS archives which contain many old threads that were deleted.
As I was doing this I saw, unexpectedly, the large disruptions to families TWI-3 caused. I was aware of old damage, but I thought it calmed down a lot after LCM shook off Geer.
The “Insanity on Steroids” thread gave me a whole new picture. I had only briefly spot checked TWI during the last 20 years, and I thought it was calming down. Oops!
I thought GreaseSpot had also calmed down from similar spot checks over the past 10 years, but I only looked at volume of posting, not much into contents.
I don’t want to add to any angst here by trying to use GS as a platform for my message.I could actually do that a little 15 years ago, because there were a lot of proPFAL posters in semi-sympathy with me. Not any more, though.
***
So, Twinky, the breakup of families is only one of MANY issues I am keenly and nostalgically interested in. It’s not anywhere near the top of my priority list of topics, though.
HOWEVER it’s time did come a few weeks ago, and it altered my course here, and still is altering it.
If this is the only topic you folks want to hear me on, I can live with that. I just may not have much to post, or very often.
I'd've thought "nauseated by" would have been a better description.
Yes, that was unfortunate grammar. Not my intention. Here is what I intended to say expanded out.
..the breakup of families is only one of MANY issues I am interested in... Some issues I'm both keenly and nostalgically interested in, but the family issues are more a mild and recent interest, and not a long term or intense interest.
I was being too abbreviated, and thought the grammar was clear. It wasn't.
One reason the family issues hit me hard a few weeks ago is because I'm going through some similar break-up like things (not TWI related) in my extended family and close friends. This involves some possible mental illness and lots of uncertainty, and a few hurtful interactions, a few burnt bridges (or what look like them) and it's hard for me NOT to relate heavily on the increases problems that TWI went through after I escaped relatively un-touched by 1988.
So, because I've been so verklempt myself about things family break-up related, my extreme brevity made for some unfortunate grammar in that nauseating sentence. Sorry.
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread is for you to share how your understanding is growing.
Do be aware that most people haven't written "their story" in one place, but there may be many posts by a person on many threads over a long period that will give "their story". If you read all the posts by one poster, you'd get a little of "their story" but it'd take you a long time. (Rocky, whose post is immediately above this, has, I see, nearly 11,000 posts, some of which may embody his story, and other posts will be something flippant.)
People are not bitter, but some have suffered irremediable harm at the hands of "leadership" in TWI. There may have been much forgiveness of TWI, but that does not rectify the loss of a body part or the loss of a child or the damage to a marriage, which marriage might or might not survive. It does not rectify lost job opportunities, career development, financial hardship now caused by surrendering so much to (being coerced by) TWI. It does not rectify the missed opportunity to see a loved one before death, or repair damaged family/friend relationships. I fear for some of the children brought up in TWI who had been raised in a bullying and otherwise abusive atmosphere - raised with fear and not with love.
Most here will acknowledge some initial benefits, or deliverance, as you yourself do, delivered from the bondage of the RC church. Others talk of deliverance from addictions of various kinds. (One of my Corps sisters had been delivered from a life of drug addiction that led to prostitution, simply so that she could get her next fix. She had an amazing story to tell - and she gave the glory to God. Yes, she was helped by TWI, only God knows how.) However, too often the deliverance is a deliverance into deeper bondage and servitude; it's just less obvious.
So, if you are reading, and you now begin to understand this damage that has been caused, and to develop empathy for the victims, sufferers, abusees, call 'em what you will, it would be a pleasure to share your journey in understanding.
If it helps you, here's a brief snapshot. When I was cast out I fell into deepest despair. I was alienated from all my friends and family. All. Everyone. I had given up everything and everyone to follow this wonderful Godly ministry. I was on my way to crawl back over broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years of abject misery and (self-imposed) condemnation away from TWI. I was bright, confident and outgoing before I met a bunch of WoWs; now I was afraid of my own shadow and of every action, no matter how kind, that was shown towards me. I happened across GSC whilst looking for the zip code for TWI. I was totally appalled at the disrespect for this wonderful ministry. I could not believe what I was reading. This godly ministry would never allow these things to happen! They would stand up against sexual abuse, defend marriages, model Godly behavior.
Yet, the stories I read chimed with things I'd seen. The severe abuse that happened to me, I learned, wasn't personal as such, just part of the working pattern of TWI. What happened to me had happened to countless others, especially women, and very especially to smart women. I read much that shocked me to my core. And after that, the scales from my eyes and my heart, and God has worked hard to help and heal me. Loving gentle people in churches have helped me. Strangers in the street have been kind to me. Some friends and family relationships are restored, another significant one even more damaged. God has restored very much to me, so much I could weep at his great graciousness. And yet, my career has never recovered, and my longed-for children will never be born; I am now way past childbearing age.
Learn to see these stories, Mike, and you will genuinely be able to help people. I believe you have a heart to help and to show God's love to people. You can do that, but you MUST abandon your PFAL mindset because that doesn't deliver into freedom but into bondage. PFAL and TWI cannot be separated. If you argue otherwise, you haven't learned much from the "heart-rending stories."
So, what have you learned so far?
Hi Twinky,
This time I read the whole thing. You're a good writer. Thanks for making a significant chunk of your story a little easier for me to ferret out.
There were times when I had the fear of being "kicked out" or M&A'd. I saw it happen only rarely in the 70s, and several times I skirted the edge with great fear.
What I've learned so far is that the crapola from TWI cannot be separated from TALK about pfal... for some people. ...for a lot of people here. ...for ALL of the active posters here.
I've had an odd life. I was supremely interested in the doctrine and had zero interest in the hierarchy and administration. I'd tolerate them, but it was the ideas I was after. The same doctrines that blessed my oddly insulated life were mixed with all kinds of stuff (cough) in the administration world of TWI.
So, what I'm learning with each reading session is that I can not separate TWI from PFAL for anyone here, ESPECIALLY with the style I used of hard hitting, long quotes, facts, figures, etc. That style came from how I was literally dragged onto GS without my consent in the fall of 2002. (long story)
What I learned from skyrider’s Steroids thread filled in the gaps for me of what I saw of TWI from 1992ish to 2000.I knew it was crazy, so I didn’t peek in much then. It was much worse than I had heard from a distance.
A lot of this sailed past me 12 years ago on GS because I was so focused on a huge posting fight, 10 times the volume of what we were doing a few weeks ago here.
In my history with all this, there were many times when I just jumped off the train in a PARTIAL sense.
Example: A distant branch leader once set me up with being the twig leader of a Way Home he “put together” for me.I assumed he had signed everyone up by revelation. When I met them all and started rental house hunting with them I discovered that the branch leader had SLOPPED them together to meet an administrative quota. They were not at all committed. One of them was engaged and only needed a place to crash for 3 months.
We had a saying back then: Rules were made to be broken.
I bailed out of that twig leadership position in a flash. I had learned that the ideas were important but the organization was not. I was happy to not have all those blue forms to deal with.
I’ve had a lot of bad luck in my life, but somehow I dodged the intense crapola many of you suffered deeply from.
What I've learned so far is that the crapola from TWI cannot be separated from TALK about pfal... for some people. ...for a lot of people here. ...for ALL of the active posters here.
What your misssing is that it was the ideology of PLAF that made the crapola of TWI possible.
Solzhenitsyn said in The Gulag Archipelago:
Ideology – that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and other’s eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.
And TWI used Weirwille Over the World (WOW). The vehicle for this was PLAF.
This time I read the whole thing. You're a good writer. Thanks for making a significant chunk of your story a little easier for me to ferret out.
There were times when I had the fear of being "kicked out" or M&A'd. I saw it happen only rarely in the 70s, and several times I skirted the edge with great fear.
What I've learned so far is that the crapola from TWI cannot be separated from TALK about pfal... for some people. ...for a lot of people here. ...for ALL of the active posters here.
I've had an odd life. I was supremely interested in the doctrine and had zero interest in the hierarchy and administration. I'd tolerate them, but it was the ideas I was after. The same doctrines that blessed my oddly insulated life were mixed with all kinds of stuff (cough) in the administration world of TWI.
So, what I'm learning with each reading session is that I can not separate TWI from PFAL for anyone here, ESPECIALLY with the style I used of hard hitting, long quotes, facts, figures, etc. That style came from how I was literally dragged onto GS without my consent in the fall of 2002. (long story)
What I learned from skyrider’s Steroids thread filled in the gaps for me of what I saw of TWI from 1992ish to 2000.I knew it was crazy, so I didn’t peek in much then. It was much worse than I had heard from a distance.
A lot of this sailed past me 12 years ago on GS because I was so focused on a huge posting fight, 10 times the volume of what we were doing a few weeks ago here.
In my history with all this, there were many times when I just jumped off the train in a PARTIAL sense.
Example: A distant branch leader once set me up with being the twig leader of a Way Home he “put together” for me.I assumed he had signed everyone up by revelation. When I met them all and started rental house hunting with them I discovered that the branch leader had SLOPPED them together to meet an administrative quota. They were not at all committed. One of them was engaged and only needed a place to crash for 3 months.
We had a saying back then: Rules were made to be broken.
I bailed out of that twig leadership position in a flash. I had learned that the ideas were important but the organization was not. I was happy to not have all those blue forms to deal with.
I’ve had a lot of bad luck in my life, but somehow I dodged the intense crapola many of you suffered deeply from.
Maybe your “insulated” approach is what spared you a lot of visceral damage that a cult can inflict on those who were much more involved in the organization…that’s just a guess…but I will say this, I don’t think that the many of the ideas in PFAL / way-doctrine can survive for very long when coming into contact with reality and so its continued “existence” is really dependent upon the proper management of the TWI hierarchy to keep reality at bay by any means possible…teaching people to NOT go by their five senses, that spiritual matters are not dependent on our reason, that the devil and his subordinates marshal everything against way-believers, etc…a lot of it boils down to how TWI taught folks to process any information they take in.
“Growing pains” is an interesting title for this thread. I found this on growing pains:
Despite the name "growing pains," there is no firm evidence that growing pains are linked to growth spurts. Instead, growing pains may simply be muscle aches due to intense childhood activities that can wear your child's muscles out. These activities include running, jumping, and climbing. Growing pains seem to be more common after a kid has a particularly full day of sports. from WEB MD
I believe for some folks (like myself ) maybe the critical thinking muscles were never fully developed, laid dormant or perhaps atrophied due to staying too long in TWI. After 12 years of involvement, leaving and then trying to figure out what happened to me was a very slow process; but finding Grease Spot was where I experienced the most growing pains…maybe an accelerated process but I’m in charge of the throttle…I started giving those critical thinking muscles a very strenuous workout. But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.
Maybe your “insulated” approach is what spared you a lot of visceral damage that a cult can inflict on those who were much more involved in the organization…that’s just a guess…but I will say this, I don’t think that the many of the ideas in PFAL / way-doctrine can survive for very long when coming into contact with reality and so its continued “existence” is really dependent upon the proper management of the TWI hierarchy to keep reality at bay by any means possible…teaching people to NOT go by their five senses, that spiritual matters are not dependent on our reason, that the devil and his subordinates marshal everything against way-believers, etc…a lot of it boils down to how TWI taught folks to process any information they take in.
“Growing pains” is an interesting title for this thread. I found this on growing pains:
Despite the name "growing pains," there is no firm evidence that growing pains are linked to growth spurts. Instead, growing pains may simply be muscle aches due to intense childhood activities that can wear your child's muscles out. These activities include running, jumping, and climbing. Growing pains seem to be more common after a kid has a particularly full day of sports. from WEB MD
I believe for some folks (like myself ) maybe the critical thinking muscles were never fully developed, laid dormant or perhaps atrophied due to staying too long in TWI. After 12 years of involvement, leaving and then trying to figure out what happened to me was a very slow process; but finding Grease Spot was where I experienced the most growing pains…maybe an accelerated process but I’m in charge of the throttle…I started giving those critical thinking muscles a very strenuous workout. But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.
But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world
Nice, T-Bone.
If our "Christian" beliefs do not enable us to connect better with the world around us, what is the point of those beliefs? We are to love God, AND we are to love fellow humans "as ourselves". We are to LOVE others. Did not Jesus love others enough to GIVE himself and to DIE for all of them, those who knew and cared for him, as well as those who've never heard of him or who reviled him? Yes? Then we are to do the same. We cannot LOVE others without engaging with them. LOVING others involves action, caring, empathy. We have to GIVE of ourselves; what we receive back through his amazing grace [ie, not "payment"] is an amazing understanding of his love for us. Acting in love is how we "grow in every way into him who is the head--Christ" (Eph 4:15).
So that's why I'm interested in learning more of Mike's journey into understanding as he explores the threads at the Cafe and learns of other people's stories. How has that helped his understanding grow? How does that help him to help others in his immediate vicinity? How does empathy for others play out in his life?
But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.
For most people, emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than one’s intelligence (IQ) in attaining success in their lives and careers. As individuals our success and the success of the profession today depend on our ability to read other people’s signals and react appropriately to them.
Therefore, each one of us must develop the mature emotional intelligence skills required to better understand, empathize and negotiate with other people — particularly as the economy has become more global. Otherwise, success will elude us in our lives and careers.
“Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them,” says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist. (more)
For most people, emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than one’s intelligence (IQ) in attaining success in their lives and careers. As individuals our success and the success of the profession today depend on our ability to read other people’s signals and react appropriately to them.
Therefore, each one of us must develop the mature emotional intelligence skills required to better understand, empathize and negotiate with other people — particularly as the economy has become more global. Otherwise, success will elude us in our lives and careers.
“Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them,” says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist. (more)
Great post ! I agree...That’s what I was trying to say...Rocky, you complete me !
Great post ! I agree...That’s what I was trying to say...Rocky, you complete me !
Thank you Jerry Maguire!
40 years ago, as a twentysomething, I didn't have much of an EQ. Today, maybe a little bit more. It boggles my mind how long it has taken to figure somethings out.
“Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them,” says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist. (more)
As soon as the term "emotional IQ" appeared in mid 80s? I knew that was a big problem in my life. I've been working on it ever since.
Empathy takes not only some IQ, but also practice. Even practicing to REMEMBER to empathize is valuable.
It's been pretty easy to empathize with what I see here and what I imagine happened in the years I was gone. I merely have to shift gears and remember how it was when I felt rather angry with VPW, and over several issues that had accumulated by 1983.
By 1985 and the time of his death, I shed zero tears. I didn't miss him after either.
If I were hearing my message back then I'd have been extremely unhappy, and I'd change the channel right away. THAT's what empathy was generated in me by some stories here.
But then my anger faded as I got away from TWI. I had access to the videos, but I hardly looked at them.... just for nostalgia again. It wasn't until 1998 that I took a second fresh look at the books. Absolutely all of my anger was gone by then.
If our "Christian" beliefs do not enable us to connect better with the world around us, what is the point of those beliefs? We are to love God, AND we are to love fellow humans "as ourselves". We are to LOVE others. Did not Jesus love others enough to GIVE himself and to DIE for all of them, those who knew and cared for him, as well as those who've never heard of him or who reviled him? Yes? Then we are to do the same. We cannot LOVE others without engaging with them. LOVING others involves action, caring, empathy. We have to GIVE of ourselves; what we receive back through his amazing grace [ie, not "payment"] is an amazing understanding of his love for us. Acting in love is how we "grow in every way into him who is the head--Christ" (Eph 4:15).
Hi Twinky,
I answered bunches of your post here in my response to Rocky. Here I want to say that my actions here have always been in the vein you portrayed above in color.
I know MANY proPFAL grads, but almost none as staunch as me. These are moderate fans of PFAL. I’ve tracked with them for decades. NONE of them want to come here and post, EVER. A few, a tiny few come here to read, but wouldn’t think of posting. They all want nothing to do with such negative grads as they behold here.
When I come here, in my mind, I’m loving the unlovable. I’m seeking out the most outcast of grads (from the moderate propfal peeps) when I come here.
Don’t laugh. It’s true FROM many grads perspective. They feel this is over the top in negativity, and none ever dare to come here to give or love.
As I learn better empathy (see my post to Rocky) I am withdrawing my message, thesis, and style in order to continue some kind of reaching out in love here. Even that may be impossible, but who knows until it’s tried?
I was toughened for situations like this. I used to go witnessing One God at trinitarian Baptist churches. It was not easy, but I learned a lot. I’ve witnessed to arch-atheist hard core scientists. I can’t blame my moderate friends, though, for not coming here. I’ve had an odd enough life that I feel can hack it.
So, how’s THAT for a non-PFAL comeback?
You GreaseSpotter Heathens should feel lucky to have me here, to preach at your Alter To the Unknown God. (This last line is just joking around, in case it’s not obvious.) :)
"I've had an odd life. I was supremely interested in the doctrine and had zero interest in the hierarchy and administration. I'd tolerate them, but it was the ideas I was after. The same doctrines that blessed my oddly insulated life were mixed with all kinds of stuff (cough) in the administration world of TWI. "
That's a REALLY sanitized way of saying what the rest of us have been saying here for DECADES. NONE of us wanted "hierarchy and administration." vpw insisted on it and forced it upon the group after the hippies grew the numbers up. (They had done their job and brought him the numbers, so now they weren't needed and it was time to apply the hierarchy and administration vpw was waiting to inflict on everyone. vpw designed twi that way. What we rejected was part and parcel of what vpw FORCED upon the group.
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Twinky
I do not see that this says, Love a book (not even a bible) - not love PFAL. I do see that it requires some practical application, otherwise, how else will you love your neighbour? By reading th
Twinky
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread
Twinky
Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI.
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Twinky
Mike also said this, on page 30:
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Mike
Hi. I just found this but
haven't had any thoughts on this specific for posting ...yet. :)
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Mike
Where are all the posters? I get the feeling everyone went on a GreaseSpot camp-out and I'm home alone here. Is this SuperBowl related?
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Rocky
No. I didn't watch the (American) football game. I boycott the NFL because it really is too violent and players almost always end up with chronic brain injury.
Anyway, Twinky said this: " I don't intend for this to be or become a Mike-bashing or even a Mike-questioning thread, just a place where he can share his current journey through old threads, and only if he chooses."
I suspect that if you do choose to share that journey through old threads, you might get some company. Otherwise, what's there for anyone else to say?
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Mike
I'm with you on football.
But where are all the posters? Why the lull in activity?
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waysider
That's just how it is here. I don't know why. Some days are a flurry of activity and others are a snooze-fest. It's always been that way, to one degree or another. On a personal level, I still work a fulltime job. I don't have personal internet access there, either. And, no, I don't have a cell phone. I used to carry one, years ago, when I was on 24 hr. call. When you're required to carry one at all times, the novelty wears thin quickly. So, that's the story of why my posting is sometimes limited.
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Rocky
Maybe you missed this the first time I posted it...
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Twinky
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread is for you to share how your understanding is growing.
Do be aware that most people haven't written "their story" in one place, but there may be many posts by a person on many threads over a long period that will give "their story". If you read all the posts by one poster, you'd get a little of "their story" but it'd take you a long time. (Rocky, whose post is immediately above this, has, I see, nearly 11,000 posts, some of which may embody his story, and other posts will be something flippant.)
People are not bitter, but some have suffered irremediable harm at the hands of "leadership" in TWI. There may have been much forgiveness of TWI, but that does not rectify the loss of a body part or the loss of a child or the damage to a marriage, which marriage might or might not survive. It does not rectify lost job opportunities, career development, financial hardship now caused by surrendering so much to (being coerced by) TWI. It does not rectify the missed opportunity to see a loved one before death, or repair damaged family/friend relationships. I fear for some of the children brought up in TWI who had been raised in a bullying and otherwise abusive atmosphere - raised with fear and not with love.
Most here will acknowledge some initial benefits, or deliverance, as you yourself do, delivered from the bondage of the RC church. Others talk of deliverance from addictions of various kinds. (One of my Corps sisters had been delivered from a life of drug addiction that led to prostitution, simply so that she could get her next fix. She had an amazing story to tell - and she gave the glory to God. Yes, she was helped by TWI, only God knows how.) However, too often the deliverance is a deliverance into deeper bondage and servitude; it's just less obvious.
So, if you are reading, and you now begin to understand this damage that has been caused, and to develop empathy for the victims, sufferers, abusees, call 'em what you will, it would be a pleasure to share your journey in understanding.
If it helps you, here's a brief snapshot. When I was cast out I fell into deepest despair. I was alienated from all my friends and family. All. Everyone. I had given up everything and everyone to follow this wonderful Godly ministry. I was on my way to crawl back over broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years of abject misery and (self-imposed) condemnation away from TWI. I was bright, confident and outgoing before I met a bunch of WoWs; now I was afraid of my own shadow and of every action, no matter how kind, that was shown towards me. I happened across GSC whilst looking for the zip code for TWI. I was totally appalled at the disrespect for this wonderful ministry. I could not believe what I was reading. This godly ministry would never allow these things to happen! They would stand up against sexual abuse, defend marriages, model Godly behavior.
Yet, the stories I read chimed with things I'd seen. The severe abuse that happened to me, I learned, wasn't personal as such, just part of the working pattern of TWI. What happened to me had happened to countless others, especially women, and very especially to smart women. I read much that shocked me to my core. And after that, the scales from my eyes and my heart, and God has worked hard to help and heal me. Loving gentle people in churches have helped me. Strangers in the street have been kind to me. Some friends and family relationships are restored, another significant one even more damaged. God has restored very much to me, so much I could weep at his great graciousness. And yet, my career has never recovered, and my longed-for children will never be born; I am now way past childbearing age.
Learn to see these stories, Mike, and you will genuinely be able to help people. I believe you have a heart to help and to show God's love to people. You can do that, but you MUST abandon your PFAL mindset because that doesn't deliver into freedom but into bondage. PFAL and TWI cannot be separated. If you argue otherwise, you haven't learned much from the "heart-rending stories."
So, what have you learned so far?
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Mike
Hi Twinky,
Sorry, I’ve been rather scattered in my reading and in my posting lately, and this (as well as many other posts to me) completely slipped under my radar. I’ve been deep into some family problems, and a few medical issues on top of that. So, my GreasSpot time has been chaotic lately.
I haven’t even finished reading this whole post of yours I’m commenting on right now, but I will eventually.
***
As I mentioned I’ve been reading in many old and current threads here, as well as reading my old GS archives which contain many old threads that were deleted.
As I was doing this I saw, unexpectedly, the large disruptions to families TWI-3 caused. I was aware of old damage, but I thought it calmed down a lot after LCM shook off Geer.
The “Insanity on Steroids” thread gave me a whole new picture. I had only briefly spot checked TWI during the last 20 years, and I thought it was calming down. Oops!
I thought GreaseSpot had also calmed down from similar spot checks over the past 10 years, but I only looked at volume of posting, not much into contents.
I don’t want to add to any angst here by trying to use GS as a platform for my message. I could actually do that a little 15 years ago, because there were a lot of proPFAL posters in semi-sympathy with me. Not any more, though.
***
So, Twinky, the breakup of families is only one of MANY issues I am keenly and nostalgically interested in. It’s not anywhere near the top of my priority list of topics, though.
HOWEVER it’s time did come a few weeks ago, and it altered my course here, and still is altering it.
If this is the only topic you folks want to hear me on, I can live with that. I just may not have much to post, or very often.
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Twinky
Nostalgia? Over the breakup of families?? WTF???
I'd've thought "nauseated by" would have been a better description.
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Mike
Yes, that was unfortunate grammar. Not my intention. Here is what I intended to say expanded out.
..the breakup of families is only one of MANY issues I am interested in... Some issues I'm both keenly and nostalgically interested in, but the family issues are more a mild and recent interest, and not a long term or intense interest.
I was being too abbreviated, and thought the grammar was clear. It wasn't.
One reason the family issues hit me hard a few weeks ago is because I'm going through some similar break-up like things (not TWI related) in my extended family and close friends. This involves some possible mental illness and lots of uncertainty, and a few hurtful interactions, a few burnt bridges (or what look like them) and it's hard for me NOT to relate heavily on the increases problems that TWI went through after I escaped relatively un-touched by 1988.
So, because I've been so verklempt myself about things family break-up related, my extreme brevity made for some unfortunate grammar in that nauseating sentence. Sorry.
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Mike
Hi Twinky,
This time I read the whole thing. You're a good writer. Thanks for making a significant chunk of your story a little easier for me to ferret out.
There were times when I had the fear of being "kicked out" or M&A'd. I saw it happen only rarely in the 70s, and several times I skirted the edge with great fear.
What I've learned so far is that the crapola from TWI cannot be separated from TALK about pfal... for some people. ...for a lot of people here. ...for ALL of the active posters here.
I've had an odd life. I was supremely interested in the doctrine and had zero interest in the hierarchy and administration. I'd tolerate them, but it was the ideas I was after. The same doctrines that blessed my oddly insulated life were mixed with all kinds of stuff (cough) in the administration world of TWI.
So, what I'm learning with each reading session is that I can not separate TWI from PFAL for anyone here, ESPECIALLY with the style I used of hard hitting, long quotes, facts, figures, etc. That style came from how I was literally dragged onto GS without my consent in the fall of 2002. (long story)
What I learned from skyrider’s Steroids thread filled in the gaps for me of what I saw of TWI from 1992ish to 2000. I knew it was crazy, so I didn’t peek in much then. It was much worse than I had heard from a distance.
A lot of this sailed past me 12 years ago on GS because I was so focused on a huge posting fight, 10 times the volume of what we were doing a few weeks ago here.
In my history with all this, there were many times when I just jumped off the train in a PARTIAL sense.
Example: A distant branch leader once set me up with being the twig leader of a Way Home he “put together” for me. I assumed he had signed everyone up by revelation. When I met them all and started rental house hunting with them I discovered that the branch leader had SLOPPED them together to meet an administrative quota. They were not at all committed. One of them was engaged and only needed a place to crash for 3 months.
We had a saying back then: Rules were made to be broken.
I bailed out of that twig leadership position in a flash. I had learned that the ideas were important but the organization was not. I was happy to not have all those blue forms to deal with.
I’ve had a lot of bad luck in my life, but somehow I dodged the intense crapola many of you suffered deeply from.
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So_crates
What your misssing is that it was the ideology of PLAF that made the crapola of TWI possible.
Solzhenitsyn said in The Gulag Archipelago:
Ideology – that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and other’s eyes, so that he won’t hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.
And TWI used Weirwille Over the World (WOW). The vehicle for this was PLAF.
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Raf
How much ungodly fruit does TWI have to bear before you recognize it was an ungodly tree?
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Rocky
BAM!
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T-Bone
Maybe your “insulated” approach is what spared you a lot of visceral damage that a cult can inflict on those who were much more involved in the organization…that’s just a guess…but I will say this, I don’t think that the many of the ideas in PFAL / way-doctrine can survive for very long when coming into contact with reality and so its continued “existence” is really dependent upon the proper management of the TWI hierarchy to keep reality at bay by any means possible…teaching people to NOT go by their five senses, that spiritual matters are not dependent on our reason, that the devil and his subordinates marshal everything against way-believers, etc…a lot of it boils down to how TWI taught folks to process any information they take in.
“Growing pains” is an interesting title for this thread. I found this on growing pains:
Despite the name "growing pains," there is no firm evidence that growing pains are linked to growth spurts. Instead, growing pains may simply be muscle aches due to intense childhood activities that can wear your child's muscles out. These activities include running, jumping, and climbing. Growing pains seem to be more common after a kid has a particularly full day of sports. from WEB MD
I believe for some folks (like myself ) maybe the critical thinking muscles were never fully developed, laid dormant or perhaps atrophied due to staying too long in TWI. After 12 years of involvement, leaving and then trying to figure out what happened to me was a very slow process; but finding Grease Spot was where I experienced the most growing pains…maybe an accelerated process but I’m in charge of the throttle…I started giving those critical thinking muscles a very strenuous workout. But it’s not just an intellectual workout…no…much more than that…it’s the resonance I feel from others with similar experiences…it’s taking in the varied perspectives of others…it’s the exhilarating feeling of being let out of a stifling confinement…a breath of fresh air to the soul…reconnecting with the real world.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, yes!!! Excellent post!!
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Twinky
Nice, T-Bone.
If our "Christian" beliefs do not enable us to connect better with the world around us, what is the point of those beliefs? We are to love God, AND we are to love fellow humans "as ourselves". We are to LOVE others. Did not Jesus love others enough to GIVE himself and to DIE for all of them, those who knew and cared for him, as well as those who've never heard of him or who reviled him? Yes? Then we are to do the same. We cannot LOVE others without engaging with them. LOVING others involves action, caring, empathy. We have to GIVE of ourselves; what we receive back through his amazing grace [ie, not "payment"] is an amazing understanding of his love for us. Acting in love is how we "grow in every way into him who is the head--Christ" (Eph 4:15).
So that's why I'm interested in learning more of Mike's journey into understanding as he explores the threads at the Cafe and learns of other people's stories. How has that helped his understanding grow? How does that help him to help others in his immediate vicinity? How does empathy for others play out in his life?
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Rocky
EQ = Emotional Intelligence. At times, MUCH more important than IQ.
For most people, emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than one’s intelligence (IQ) in attaining success in their lives and careers. As individuals our success and the success of the profession today depend on our ability to read other people’s signals and react appropriately to them.
Therefore, each one of us must develop the mature emotional intelligence skills required to better understand, empathize and negotiate with other people — particularly as the economy has become more global. Otherwise, success will elude us in our lives and careers.
“Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them,” says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist. (more)
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T-Bone
Great post ! I agree...That’s what I was trying to say...Rocky, you complete me !
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Rocky
Thank you Jerry Maguire!
Edited by Rocky40 years ago, as a twentysomething, I didn't have much of an EQ. Today, maybe a little bit more. It boggles my mind how long it has taken to figure somethings out.
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Mike
As soon as the term "emotional IQ" appeared in mid 80s? I knew that was a big problem in my life. I've been working on it ever since.
Empathy takes not only some IQ, but also practice. Even practicing to REMEMBER to empathize is valuable.
It's been pretty easy to empathize with what I see here and what I imagine happened in the years I was gone. I merely have to shift gears and remember how it was when I felt rather angry with VPW, and over several issues that had accumulated by 1983.
By 1985 and the time of his death, I shed zero tears. I didn't miss him after either.
If I were hearing my message back then I'd have been extremely unhappy, and I'd change the channel right away. THAT's what empathy was generated in me by some stories here.
But then my anger faded as I got away from TWI. I had access to the videos, but I hardly looked at them.... just for nostalgia again. It wasn't until 1998 that I took a second fresh look at the books. Absolutely all of my anger was gone by then.
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Mike
Hi Twinky,
I answered bunches of your post here in my response to Rocky. Here I want to say that my actions here have always been in the vein you portrayed above in color.
I know MANY proPFAL grads, but almost none as staunch as me. These are moderate fans of PFAL. I’ve tracked with them for decades. NONE of them want to come here and post, EVER. A few, a tiny few come here to read, but wouldn’t think of posting. They all want nothing to do with such negative grads as they behold here.
When I come here, in my mind, I’m loving the unlovable. I’m seeking out the most outcast of grads (from the moderate propfal peeps) when I come here.
Don’t laugh. It’s true FROM many grads perspective. They feel this is over the top in negativity, and none ever dare to come here to give or love.
As I learn better empathy (see my post to Rocky) I am withdrawing my message, thesis, and style in order to continue some kind of reaching out in love here. Even that may be impossible, but who knows until it’s tried?
I was toughened for situations like this. I used to go witnessing One God at trinitarian Baptist churches. It was not easy, but I learned a lot. I’ve witnessed to arch-atheist hard core scientists. I can’t blame my moderate friends, though, for not coming here. I’ve had an odd enough life that I feel can hack it.
So, how’s THAT for a non-PFAL comeback?
You GreaseSpotter Heathens should feel lucky to have me here, to preach at your Alter To the Unknown God. (This last line is just joking around, in case it’s not obvious.) :)
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WordWolf
"I've had an odd life. I was supremely interested in the doctrine and had zero interest in the hierarchy and administration. I'd tolerate them, but it was the ideas I was after. The same doctrines that blessed my oddly insulated life were mixed with all kinds of stuff (cough) in the administration world of TWI. "
That's a REALLY sanitized way of saying what the rest of us have been saying here for DECADES. NONE of us wanted "hierarchy and administration." vpw insisted on it and forced it upon the group after the hippies grew the numbers up. (They had done their job and brought him the numbers, so now they weren't needed and it was time to apply the hierarchy and administration vpw was waiting to inflict on everyone. vpw designed twi that way. What we rejected was part and parcel of what vpw FORCED upon the group.
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