... this guy Jesus taught a little teaching about how to recognize people. By their fruit. I actually don't revel in that teaching either. But it is so universally presented across so many religions that it's really fundamental and easy to understand for most people.
It's impossible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in another person's life.
It's very possible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in your own life.
If your theory were so certain, surely you would have at least the basics together now? Why not, as I suggested, just take a break, get it all together, and then come back. Be prepared for some flak. You might even get some constructive criticism, pointing out holes in your theory. If VPW had bothered to submit his ideas, perhaps they would have been better and not so full of holes. You can avoid that by presenting something a bit more coherent and allowing others to point out the holes to you.
I'm all for that. This is a very extended project, though. It's massive. It's also complicated by the MANY mi9sunderstandings that abound as to what I am saying. I think it's important to clear up the simple ones.
It's impossible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in another person's life.
It's very possible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in your own life.
Did you miss my longer post on this last week?
Are we referring to your longer posts as our standard for discussion now? I guess with people who think VP breathed out God's Word that could be confusing.
I can see ENOUGH of the fruit of the Way to make an intelligent decision.
i can see ENOUGH of the fruit of VPW in driving people away from Christ in the long run and in evidence of the legacy he left to also make an intelligent decision.
You know there is a God. And He can ensure that I learn enough about fruit that i desire to.
I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in the New Testament docs, in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by FF Bruce... it says on pages 14 and 15:
“The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.
To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none:
‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “
== == == == ==
Bruce’s point is simple – with the increase of hand-copies comes the possibility of scribal errors – but that also means you have that many more “witnesses” as to what was originally said. And another thing to consider is what type of scribal errors occurred. Was a word misspelled, or repeated or transposed, etc. - - these would be easy to spot and corrected by comparing other copies...
It appears wierwille is somewhat removed from analyzing the actual texts that are still in existence; in the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states:
“Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.”
== == == == ==
I see two issues with wierwille’s approach:
First: He’s off by about a century and a half on the oldest manuscripts in existence – Bruce notes on page 10 of his book that there are in existence over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in whole or in part and that the best and most important of these go back to somewhere about AD 350.
Second: wierwille is not comparing Greek manuscripts – instead he is comparing translations or versions of the Bible! That’s like playing the telephone game - the first person states a message and by the time it goes through a whole line of people the message might sound somewhat different from the original. wierwille is at the end of the line - comparing how one translator interprets a phrase in the Greek to how another translator handles the same phrase. Frankly I don’t have much faith in wierwille’s ability to see beyond his own doctrinal preferences to note differences or similarities in translations since he would come up with goofy phrases that blurred variations like “all without exception” and “all without distinction” – which is the same thing.
== == == == ==
Here are multiple challenges:
First challenge: how can wierwille claim he can get back to the authentic prophecy when it was first given if he is only looking at translations and versions instead of the manuscripts written in the original biblical languages? In my humble opinion, it is doubtful wierwille was even competent to read and understand any of the biblical languages anyway.
Second challenge: what standard or criteria are you using to declare that the KJV or other translations lack validity and authority in matters of the Christian faith?
Third challenge: specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?
Fourth challenge: How is PFAL God-breathed if all wierwille did to put it together was just supposedly compare translations /versions …oh and plagiarize the work of others too?
Fifth challenge: If God’s breath gave life to scripture (II Timothy 3:16) and in a way that represents an extension of God himself then doesn’t that make God a liar and thief if you believe that a bundle of plagiarized material (aka PFAL) is God-breathed?
T-Bone,
I'm not ignoring this. There's just no brief answer possible. I am looking at all the details here, SLOWLY.
I'm all for that. This is a very extended project, though. It's massive. It's also complicated by the MANY mi9sunderstandings that abound as to what I am saying. I think it's important to clear up the simple ones.
No I think in essence you are saying the exact same thing that the current Board of Directors of the Way is saying.
Let's forget about all this putrid fruit and just get back to the pure simple Biblical truths we learned from VPW in PFAL. Apply as much mental whitewash as necessary to get yourself there.
If your theory were so certain, surely you would have at least the basics together now?
I had the basics together by 1999, enough FOR ME. I was so certain then that I made a commitment to it, and started living my life that way. For the past 10 years, since I left GreaseSpot, I've been certain enough to stay committed to this. What you fol\ks are asking for is a lot more than just the basics.
I find it very telling that Twinky, T-Bone, or I challange you and your excuse is that you don't have time. Yet you have time to present a several inch post on Professor Irwin Corey.
Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.
I type pretty fast. My reading is much slower, especially if it's more than a page.
The time to organize and produce my manifesto is massive. I can bang out these simple issues in very little time. I can do a lot of my unthinking about these issues as I clean windows.
Meanwhile, one question and misconception after another are being dealt with.
The first error you made was God forgives when we admit our transgressions. Saint Vic never admitted he transgressed.
You are guessing and hoping he never admitted this. I heard and read different. Someday I'll bring the evidence to this, again.
During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote.
I'm unaware of him putting this doctrine into writing or on tape. I expect that he was dead wrong on things, from time to time that he said and even taught. Aren't we ALL dead wrong from time to time?
He threatened his victims with saying they were possessed by devil spirits.
That sound repentant to you?
Assuming that happened: No.
Not at all. Not THAT time.
But what happened the next day?
All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog.
This sound repentant to you?
Not at all. Not THAT time. I'm sure David and Solomon had their unrepentant days. I do too.
Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins.
I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible.
Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation.
Continuing is a strong word to use. I know in my life I'd "continue" for a while at being screwed up on something... and then time passes, I hear more of the Word, someone may bless me in a certain way... and then I pull out of my nosedive. Can't you see this is more likely way to look at this?
What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations.
I'd not say "unable" but would say much less efficient.
I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong.
Your hunches are not supported by what he wrote and spoke on tape. And why did he ask Ralph and Vince to research "adultery" in 1982, years before the John S. Paper was written.
How did Saint Vic put it?
"God would have to rewrite all the laws in the universe to accomodate him."
When a person (like ME for instance) believes PFAL is God-breathed then, FOR ME, the contents are incontestable. They are the last word FOR ME because of my belief. FOR ME there are no other documents that are at that status. Every English word and every comma in the KJV is contestable in the sense, that FOR ME, I can keep searching for a better rendering when there is a problem.
If you relax a little, maybe we can get my idea more clear in your head. That way you can argue WITH ME, instead of arguing with what you may erroneously THINK that I am saying.
Mike, what you remind me of here is the current movement of "Flat Earth Theorists". There's a group of philosophical sorts running around today professing that the world is flat and that we are all part of one big hoax teaching round earth theory..
BTW regarding PFAL and being "profitahle", if I would happen to have old PFAL class printed books, how much would you be willing to pay for one? Just out of curiosity.
Are we referring to your longer posts as our standard for discussion now?
No. I just thought I'd keep that more recent post short.
I guess with people who think VP breathed out God's Word that could be confusing.
I can see ENOUGH of the fruit of the Way to make an intelligent decision.
The fruit of TWI after 1985 really stinks. Before that it was a mixed bag. Seeing the fruit of an organization is easier than looking into someone's private life for it.
But the fruit of the PFAL class should be separated out from TWI in general. Grads who were not in the Corps, who didn't go out WOW too fast, and who were sheltered from the abuses, have a very different assessment of the fruit.
i can see ENOUGH of the fruit of VPW in driving people away from Christ in the long run and in evidence of the legacy he left to also make an intelligent decision.
You know there is a God. And He can ensure that I learn enough about fruit that i desire to.
Again, I urge you to separate PFAL out fro TWI in your learning.
"The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince the world he never existed." - Keyser Soze - The Usual Suspects
Definitely in my top 5 all time movies.
A fictional creation citing a fictional creation.
The greatest trick the evil ever pulled was convincing the world the devil does exist, thus absolving them of responsibility for the evil that they do.
You stated he was "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn." You stated that he was "OVERgifted."
I also stated, and several times (and several times ignored by you) that a lot of people in the top 1% genetically are in that category. I identify him as being in the smart tail of the bell curve. Thereare many millions of such people. I was just saying, in a poetic way, that he was not averageC
The man's brains and brawn were strictly average- as has been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt.
Oh MY! We have a difference of opinion. Know what I want to do about it? Debate it? I don't care about this issue at all. I said what I said 10 years ago, forget the context, and moved on. When are you going to be honest about this? HMMMMM?
You don't have "a healthy distance" from him.
He died 32 years ago! I have distanced myself from several aspects of his life and personality. What God worked out with him I admire and appreciate and celebrate.
No I think in essence you are saying the exact same thing that the current Board of Directors of the Way is saying.
Let's forget about all this putrid fruit and just get back to the pure simple Biblical truths we learned from VPW in PFAL. Apply as much mental whitewash as necessary to get yourself there.
At least I have come here and to discuss these things. I don't see the TWI people doing that.
I do not whitewash the problems. I separate them from the good stuff, though.
BTW regarding PFAL and being "profitahle", if I would happen to have old PFAL class printed books, how much would you be willing to pay for one? Just out of curiosity.
Thanks, but I have several sets of the books. They've been selling on E-Bay for 20 years. I know some grads who have been buying up the less expensive offerings ever since. Plus they are in PDF format now. Plus, some of them can be purchased (altered editions) at the TWI bookstore.
At least I have come here and to discuss these things. I don't see the TWI people doing that.
I do not whitewash the problems. I separate them from the good stuff, though.
You do whitewash the problems.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
The fruit of TWI after 1985 really stinks. Before that it was a mixed bag. Seeing the fruit of an organization is easier than looking into someone's private life for it.
But the fruit of the PFAL class should be separated out from TWI in general. Grads who were not in the Corps, who didn't go out WOW too fast, and who were sheltered from the abuses, have a very different assessment of the fruit.
The fruit of TWI then you say pretty much for most of my time in, and most of people in currently - basically anyone not in the old hippy Pressed Down days, really stinks. All I got to say is some real accounts I've read from those days don't sound any better to me.
However, the fruit of TWI during that time period (after 1985) was to double down on PFAL. Oh, BTW I didn't go out WOW too fast. We had a great year. We got along, had money, we ran classes. We studied PFAL in residence. We actually tried to the best of our ability to enact and live VPW's last teaching that you quoted.
What I am telling you is the practical application of what you are trying to sell us here doesn't work. You can't separate out PFAL class from the organization that ran it. It was all entwined. Do you know how many splinter groups tried that?
What I do believe is you are an example of what the Way tries to accomplish. Keep you sheltered from the abuses that exist all throughout the organization. Never tell you anything. Fire tons of people, but never speak of it to any others outside the little Pharisee circle. Sure the Way likes to keep people happy and ignorant and sending in the $$$. If all they need to do that is plagiarized work, a fictional story disproven many times over about snow on gas pumps, repetition, and avoiding any life changing confrontation then they have a rich future ministry finding people just like you. As long as people don't curse any more - well they don't because Rosie says so. I say bull - I have heard plenty of those jackwads yell and curse still. They just hide the maliciousness in their hearts better.
No they whitewash the Way better every day. Hide their true intent of serving their own belly and positions. Play Machiavellian games.
And you my friend are one big ostrich with the head in the sand and a bit of whitewash clinging to your top head feathers where they ran the paint roller over your head.
The greatest trick the evil ever pulled was convincing the world the devil does exist, thus absolving them of responsibility for the evil that they do.
Is it really a fictional creation? Or did you really understand the movie?
i'm 100% with you on the BS devil-made-me-do-it-thus-not-myself-responsible logic.
During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote.
I'm unaware of him putting this doctrine into writing or on tape. I expect that he was dead wrong on things, from time to time that he said and even taught. Aren't we ALL dead wrong from time to time?
All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog.
This sound repentant to you?
Not at all. Not THAT time. I'm sure David and Solomon had their unrepentant days. I do too.
Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins.
I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible.
Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation.
Continuing is a strong word to use. I know in my life I'd "continue" for a while at being screwed up on something... and then time passes, I hear more of the Word, someone may bless me in a certain way... and then I pull out of my nosedive. Can't you see this is more likely way to look at this?
What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations.
I'd not say "unable" but would say much less efficient.
I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong.
Your hunches are not supported by what he wrote and spoke on tape. And why did he ask Ralph and Vince to research "adultery" in 1982, years before the John S. Paper was written.
Every word and concept in PLAF have also been contested. What is believing? How does one get born again? Water baptism or baptism in the holy spirit? These continue to be contested by scholars/ Does that make PLAF "devoid of authority"? Why the bible singing the same tired and not PLAF?
Let me try again.
When a person (like ME for instance) believes PFAL is God-breathed then, FOR ME, the contents are incontestable. They are the last word FOR ME because of my belief. FOR ME there are no other documents that are at that status. Every English word and every comma in the KJV is contestable in the sense, that FOR ME, I can keep searching for a better rendering when there is a problem.
If you relax a little, maybe we can get my idea more clear in your head. That way you can argue WITH ME, instead of arguing with what you may erroneously THINK that I am saying.
It's obvious you've never had a com class in your life. If you did, you'd know that the responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. If I'm not getting it, it's your fault, not mine.
Considering you've been singing the same tired tune sincw 2002, I'd think you'd be an old pro at it by now, But, oddly, things are no different then they were in 2002, still making claims without evidence to support them, still claiming you haven't time to explain yourself, still accusing people who question you pouncing.
So tell me, 16 years later, how's this method of communication working out for you?
So basically your telling us is Jesus Christ was full of it when he told us we'd know them by their fruit
NO!
I am saying that you have to look properly at the fruit, as Jesus said.
I think (not totally sure) that means that we look for the fruit WHERE we are able to see it efficiently: within ourselves.
It's hard to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in someone else's life.
It's much easier and more accurate to look at the ALL the fruit in your own life.
I look at the fruit post-1985 TWI produced in my life and I don't like it. I know TWI's fruit in my life is not good. I quit allowing them to teach me, gradually by 1987.
I look at the fruit of PFAL in my life, especially the more refined written focus since 1998, and Iam happy with what I see. The fruit I see is good, and tht's PART of my proof that PFAL is God-breathed. It's a proof you have to perform to see its merits. I did.
I am trying to ACCURATELY follow what Jesus Christ told us in that passage.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."........Thomas Paine.
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Here's an idea: we each drop out of this topic and go read a book.
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Can anyone tell me dictor paul's scriptural position on the word "Covfefe"? What is the true meaning of that word?? Mike's textual criticism, and use of the basic dictor "keys to research", is as made
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Mike
It's impossible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in another person's life.
It's very possible to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in your own life.
Did you miss my longer post on this last week?
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Twinky
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Mike
I'm all for that. This is a very extended project, though. It's massive. It's also complicated by the MANY mi9sunderstandings that abound as to what I am saying. I think it's important to clear up the simple ones.
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chockfull
Are we referring to your longer posts as our standard for discussion now? I guess with people who think VP breathed out God's Word that could be confusing.
I can see ENOUGH of the fruit of the Way to make an intelligent decision.
i can see ENOUGH of the fruit of VPW in driving people away from Christ in the long run and in evidence of the legacy he left to also make an intelligent decision.
You know there is a God. And He can ensure that I learn enough about fruit that i desire to.
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Bolshevik
Does sneeze count as breathe?
http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/The_Creation_of_the_Universe
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Mike
T-Bone,
I'm not ignoring this. There's just no brief answer possible. I am looking at all the details here, SLOWLY.
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chockfull
No I think in essence you are saying the exact same thing that the current Board of Directors of the Way is saying.
Let's forget about all this putrid fruit and just get back to the pure simple Biblical truths we learned from VPW in PFAL. Apply as much mental whitewash as necessary to get yourself there.
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T-Bone
ok - thanks for letting me know, Mike.
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Mike
I had the basics together by 1999, enough FOR ME. I was so certain then that I made a commitment to it, and started living my life that way. For the past 10 years, since I left GreaseSpot, I've been certain enough to stay committed to this. What you fol\ks are asking for is a lot more than just the basics.
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Mike
I type pretty fast. My reading is much slower, especially if it's more than a page.
The time to organize and produce my manifesto is massive. I can bang out these simple issues in very little time. I can do a lot of my unthinking about these issues as I clean windows.
Meanwhile, one question and misconception after another are being dealt with.
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chockfull
"The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince the world he never existed." - Keyser Soze - The Usual Suspects
Definitely in my top 5 all time movies.
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Mike
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chockfull
Mike, what you remind me of here is the current movement of "Flat Earth Theorists". There's a group of philosophical sorts running around today professing that the world is flat and that we are all part of one big hoax teaching round earth theory..
BTW regarding PFAL and being "profitahle", if I would happen to have old PFAL class printed books, how much would you be willing to pay for one? Just out of curiosity.
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Mike
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Raf
A fictional creation citing a fictional creation.
The greatest trick the evil ever pulled was convincing the world the devil does exist, thus absolving them of responsibility for the evil that they do.
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Mike
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Mike
At least I have come here and to discuss these things. I don't see the TWI people doing that.
I do not whitewash the problems. I separate them from the good stuff, though.
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Mike
Thanks, but I have several sets of the books. They've been selling on E-Bay for 20 years. I know some grads who have been buying up the less expensive offerings ever since. Plus they are in PDF format now. Plus, some of them can be purchased (altered editions) at the TWI bookstore.
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chockfull
You do whitewash the problems.
The fruit of TWI then you say pretty much for most of my time in, and most of people in currently - basically anyone not in the old hippy Pressed Down days, really stinks. All I got to say is some real accounts I've read from those days don't sound any better to me.
However, the fruit of TWI during that time period (after 1985) was to double down on PFAL. Oh, BTW I didn't go out WOW too fast. We had a great year. We got along, had money, we ran classes. We studied PFAL in residence. We actually tried to the best of our ability to enact and live VPW's last teaching that you quoted.
What I am telling you is the practical application of what you are trying to sell us here doesn't work. You can't separate out PFAL class from the organization that ran it. It was all entwined. Do you know how many splinter groups tried that?
What I do believe is you are an example of what the Way tries to accomplish. Keep you sheltered from the abuses that exist all throughout the organization. Never tell you anything. Fire tons of people, but never speak of it to any others outside the little Pharisee circle. Sure the Way likes to keep people happy and ignorant and sending in the $$$. If all they need to do that is plagiarized work, a fictional story disproven many times over about snow on gas pumps, repetition, and avoiding any life changing confrontation then they have a rich future ministry finding people just like you. As long as people don't curse any more - well they don't because Rosie says so. I say bull - I have heard plenty of those jackwads yell and curse still. They just hide the maliciousness in their hearts better.
No they whitewash the Way better every day. Hide their true intent of serving their own belly and positions. Play Machiavellian games.
And you my friend are one big ostrich with the head in the sand and a bit of whitewash clinging to your top head feathers where they ran the paint roller over your head.
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chockfull
Is it really a fictional creation? Or did you really understand the movie?
i'm 100% with you on the BS devil-made-me-do-it-thus-not-myself-responsible logic.
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So_crates
My origional statements in black
Mike's in red
My responses after the ---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first error you made was God forgives when we admit our transgressions. Saint Vic never admitted he transgressed.
You are guessing and hoping he never admitted this. I heard and read different. Someday I'll bring the evidence to this, again.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just as your guessing. If you have evidence, please present it
Isn't it odd you always claim you have evidence, but you never present it
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote.
I'm unaware of him putting this doctrine into writing or on tape. I expect that he was dead wrong on things, from time to time that he said and even taught. Aren't we ALL dead wrong from time to time?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was documented in a book by one of the upper eschelon before Saint Vic had all Way funds flow to Way Nash.
Right or wrong isn't the issue, the issue is was he repentent and does he sound repentent?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He threatened his victims with saying they were possessed by devil spirits.
That sound repentant to you?
Assuming that happened: No.
Not at all. Not THAT time.
But what happened the next day?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He went and found another victim
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog.
This sound repentant to you?
Not at all. Not THAT time. I'm sure David and Solomon had their unrepentant days. I do too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're not talking days, year talking years, with many, many victims.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins.
I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible.
Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation.
Continuing is a strong word to use. I know in my life I'd "continue" for a while at being screwed up on something... and then time passes, I hear more of the Word, someone may bless me in a certain way... and then I pull out of my nosedive. Can't you see this is more likely way to look at this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yah, well your not claiming to be the MOG, or are you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations.
I'd not say "unable" but would say much less efficient.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ, that's the exact verbage Saint Vic used in the PLAF, or are you changing it?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong.
Your hunches are not supported by what he wrote and spoke on tape. And why did he ask Ralph and Vince to research "adultery" in 1982, years before the John S. Paper was written.
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Only Ralph can answer that. And if Saint Vic was so repentant, why did John S. get fired?
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So_crates
It's obvious you've never had a com class in your life. If you did, you'd know that the responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. If I'm not getting it, it's your fault, not mine.
Considering you've been singing the same tired tune sincw 2002, I'd think you'd be an old pro at it by now, But, oddly, things are no different then they were in 2002, still making claims without evidence to support them, still claiming you haven't time to explain yourself, still accusing people who question you pouncing.
So tell me, 16 years later, how's this method of communication working out for you?
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So_crates
So basically your telling us is Jesus Christ was full of it when he told us we'd know them by their fruit
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Mike
NO!
I am saying that you have to look properly at the fruit, as Jesus said.
I think (not totally sure) that means that we look for the fruit WHERE we are able to see it efficiently: within ourselves.
It's hard to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in someone else's life.
It's much easier and more accurate to look at the ALL the fruit in your own life.
I look at the fruit post-1985 TWI produced in my life and I don't like it. I know TWI's fruit in my life is not good. I quit allowing them to teach me, gradually by 1987.
I look at the fruit of PFAL in my life, especially the more refined written focus since 1998, and I am happy with what I see. The fruit I see is good, and tht's PART of my proof that PFAL is God-breathed. It's a proof you have to perform to see its merits. I did.
I am trying to ACCURATELY follow what Jesus Christ told us in that passage.
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