Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed?


So_crates
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

For whichever questions still apply, I'd love to hear responses. One great disadvantage I have is not knowing most of you and your backgrounds and your current positions. A few I do. Are you current, recent folks in the forum that has personal introductions? I should read up on that if so. BTW,  having your picture icon HELPS a lot in remembering who said what.

Yet another distracting device. 

Some might think it a great ADvantage to not know other posters in person, so that the PoV can be considered outside any background knowledge.  Do the facts support the argument, or does one's knowledge of the person tip the balance - either to agree or to disagree with the argument?  If personal knowledge of a poster tips the balance, then what is being considered, the argument or the person?

People here don't need to prove their PoV because nobody here has stated that they think the scriptures are Godbreathed or any such argument.  The context is: is PFAL "Godbreathed" as you, Mike, assert? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Why do you feel you must show yourself approved before GSC?

I've not been suggesting things so that you can be approved before me, but rather to give you ideas that relate to your stated intent.
 

More tangents. More me breaking my promise to cool it on posting on this thread. LOL.

I said I was examining my motives for returning here.  I don't think your guess of seeking approval is on target at all.

The reason I've tried to work with your suggestions is they are good, and I was thinking along those lines also. I was trying too write my "manifesto" in the fly, in sections, as  responses within larger dialogs with you folks. That  comes across as toying and delaying. So I have to give it up if It aint workin.

Besides, that's how civil intelligent conversations go. I don’t see this TWI mystery as having been totally cracked. Not at all. There’s plenty more to learn.

Being honest and forthright, I even thought I could use some of the text in the “proof” dialog as boilerplate in a future book on surety and proof in science.

As for approval, I’ve weathered storms of disapproval here. I’m curious why you ask that. It sounds a little like a stealthy psychology probe, or tangential bait.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I even thought I could use some of the text in the “proof” dialog as boilerplate in a future book on surety and proof in science.

That would only be the things that you yourself wrote, Mike, wouldn't it?  If you were to use other people's responses without their permission, you'd be breaching their copyright.  If you passed such commentary off as your own, that'd be plagiarism, as well.  And you wouldn't want to be accused of being a plagiarist, would you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, I'm going to go out on a limb here and summarize what I have interpreted to be your core belief. If I am wrong, please correct me and accept my apology.

You believe the scriptures are not "God Breathed", that holy men of God did not speak as they were moved. Therefore, God, desiring for his true word to be known, gave the perfected product to Wierwille in the form of Power For Abundant Living. Thus, PFAL replaces the Bible as the authoritative version of God's word.

Is this correct? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Mike, this is related to what Waysider asked and I too apologize in advance if I’ve misconstrued anything- that is not my intent:

If PFAL takes the place of the scriptures as the only thing currently that is God-breathed, then are we to assume that any any passages of the Bible NOT referenced in PFAL can be disregarded?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Twinky said:

That would only be the things that you yourself wrote, Mike, wouldn't it?  If you were to use other people's responses without their permission, you'd be breaching their copyright.  If you passed such commentary off as your own, that'd be plagiarism, as well.  And you wouldn't want to be accused of being a plagiarist, would you?

Of course. I've done the same with phone calls if I'm brainstorming a detailed topic. I record my voice with a regular microphone, and my partner's voice goes unrecorded. I get all the memory pegs that the tape can provide. It's much more serious, like criminal felony, to record someone without permission in some States.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, waysider said:

Mike, I'm going to go out on a limb here and summarize what I have interpreted to be your core belief. If I am wrong, please correct me and accept my apology.

You believe the scriptures are not "God Breathed", that holy men of God did not speak as they were moved. Therefore, God, desiring for his true word to be known, gave the perfected product to Wierwille in the form of Power For Abundant Living. Thus, PFAL replaces the Bible as the authoritative version of God's word.

Is this correct? 

No.  It's not correct, but THANKS for ASKING!

This is a very important point to have clear. I am SOOOO glad you asked. I'll again break my diminished posting promise (a little) to answer this quickly.

I believe the originals were God-breathed. 

However, I also believe the 3rd Century copies of copies of copies of the originals (which are all we have) are not God-breathed. The originals were lost and most probably destroyed.

The originals of Paul’s Epistles were inherited by an unthankful church in the 1st Century.  Peter’s dying last words are to this effect. Paul was shamed and imprisoned and all his top leadership had left him by the time he wrote II Timothy. Due diligence in copying and preserving Paul’s the originals was at a low ebb even before he died.  Spiritually the church had rejected God’s guidance and didn’t care enough to copy carefully. The copying process was also severely hampered by great persecutions that started around the same time. Sometimes they deliberately forged and altered sections of their copies.

This sloppy copying was the reason for inventing the Critical Greek Texts in the 16th Century.

A similar process happened in Moses’ day. The Word written in the stars became corrupt in how people passed on the skills for reading them. At some point God abandoned the useless format of the stars and had Moses compile what was needed into written form.

By 1942 VPW figured it out that there was zero authority that the ancient scriptures and their translations could wield. He saw that to work back to the quality of the originals, and then to work on a God-breathed translation were two very impossible tasks and he gave up.

I believe that like the Word in the stars, God abandoned the originals’ format and had VPW compile what was needed from the ancient scriptures, and the format evolved into what looks like a set of conventional commentaries. God-breathed English commentaries might be a very loose translation of what I believe the collaterals are, but I fully know that VPW would not like my use of the word “commentary” here.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Hey Mike, this is related to what Waysider asked and I too apologize in advance if I’ve misconstrued anything- that is not my intent:

If PFAL takes the place of the scriptures as the only thing currently that is God-breathed, then are we to assume that any any passages of the Bible NOT referenced in PFAL can be disregarded?

 

Good question.

The way I've handled that (without getting too detailed  here) is the collaterals are my only rule on faith and practice. I use them to rule on things I hear in life, and some things I accept on that basis.

The totally unreferenced sections of my KJV serves me as background information for the collaterals. I place them on a lower priority in my study scheduling. I must put SOMETHING on lower priorities. Those sections are useful, but not for steering in tough waters. They served as the background  info  for VPW when he wrote, and they serve me that way too when I read sections that are close by. They are open to re-interpretations, and can’t serve as a ruler like the collaterals do.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

Good question.

The way I've handled that (without getting too detailed  here) is the collaterals are my only rule on faith and practice. I use them to rule on things I hear in life, and some things I accept on that basis.

 

So, in  other words, the PFAL collaterals have replaced the Bible. Is that closer to what you believe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I believe that like the Word in the stars, God abandoned the originals’ format and had VPW compile what was needed from the ancient scriptures, and the format evolved into what looks like a set of conventional commentaries. God-breathed English commentaries might be a very loose translation of what I believe the collaterals are, but I fully know that VPW would not like my use of the word “commentary” here.

The 1st two words in this paragraph and then what follows tell us all that we need to know about Mike’s theology. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Good question.

 

 

The way I've handled that (without getting too detailed  here) is the collaterals are my only rule on faith and practice. I use them to rule on things I hear in life, and some things I accept on that basis.

The totally unreferenced sections of my KJV serves me as background information for the collaterals. I place them on a lower priority in my study scheduling. I must put SOMETHING on lower priorities. Those sections are useful, but not for steering in tough waters. They served as the background  info  for VPW when he wrote, and they serve me that way too when I read sections that are close by. They are open to re-interpretations, and can’t serve as a ruler like the collaterals do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike stated: "Good question".     Really??? LMAO!!!   Mike, you are either posting here to get a cheap laugh or you are thoroughly brainwashed. Check out Steve Hassan's web site. Maybe they can get you some help. LOL!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mike said:

No.  It's not correct, but THANKS for ASKING!

 

This is a very important point to have clear. I am SOOOO glad you asked. I'll again break my diminished posting promise (a little) to answer this quickly.

 

I believe the originals were God-breathed. 

However, I also believe the 3rd Century copies of copies of copies of the originals (which are all we have) are not God-breathed. The originals were lost and most probably destroyed.

The originals of Paul’s Epistles were inherited by an unthankful church in the 1st Century.  Peter’s dying last words are to this effect. Paul was shamed and imprisoned and all his top leadership had left him by the time he wrote II Timothy. Due diligence in copying and preserving Paul’s the originals was at a low ebb even before he died.  Spiritually the church had rejected God’s guidance and didn’t care enough to copy carefully. The copying process was also severely hampered by great persecutions that started around the same time. Sometimes they deliberately forged and altered sections of their copies.

This sloppy copying was the reason for inventing the Critical Greek Texts in the 16th Century.

A similar process happened in Moses’ day. The Word written in the stars became corrupt in how people passed on the skills for reading them. At some point God abandoned the useless format of the stars and had Moses compile what was needed into written form.

By 1942 VPW figured it out that there was zero authority that the ancient scriptures and their translations could wield. He saw that to work back to the quality of the originals, and then to work on a God-breathed translation were two very impossible tasks and he gave up.

I believe that like the Word in the stars, God abandoned the originals’ format and had VPW compile what was needed from the ancient scriptures, and the format evolved into what looks like a set of conventional commentaries. God-breathed English commentaries might be a very loose translation of what I believe the collaterals are, but I fully know that VPW would not like my use of the word “commentary” here.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Good question.

The way I've handled that (without getting too detailed  here) is the collaterals are my only rule on faith and practice. I use them to rule on things I hear in life, and some things I accept on that basis.

The totally unreferenced sections of my KJV serves me as background information for the collaterals. I place them on a lower priority in my study scheduling. I must put SOMETHING on lower priorities. Those sections are useful, but not for steering in tough waters. They served as the background  info  for VPW when he wrote, and they serve me that way too when I read sections that are close by. They are open to re-interpretations, and can’t serve as a ruler like the collaterals do.

 

Mike I really appreciate your responses to our questions; I’m kinda getting an idea of your rule for faith and practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, waysider said:

So, in  other words, the PFAL collaterals have replaced the Bible. Is that closer to what you believe?

AGAIN, I'm most happy to clarify.

But again, it’s at variance with my decision back off to write a more full manifesto.

This key phrase “the PFAL collaterals have replaced the Bible” is ambiguous without some context, because the term “the Bible” is so highly ambiguous.

How can “the Bible” be used as an accurate ruling device?  Which Bible? Which Critical Greek Text? Which translation? Which version? In addition to minute differences in some individual words, whole attitudes on things like sin and trinity get impressed into texts in subtle ways.

There hasn’t been a “the Bible” for PFAL to replace.

What most people mean when they say “the Bible” is the abstract contents of the original ancient scriptures in the language of those originally addressed, and that scholars are constantly getting closer and closer to.

Like VPW in 1942, I have given up on that scholarly project ever coming to the needed accuracy. The reason is I believe the adversary’s scrambling of the originals in the earliest copies was of supernatural intelligence, and that NO HUMAN SCHOLARS can ever unscramble it. Not even all the kings horses and all the kings men can match wits with the devil. The originals are gone, gone, gone. What we have left is devoid of authority.

It’s THAT set of modern documents (especially translations and version) that PFAL replaces in the sense that something of zero authority is replaced with something substantial, again.

***

There are some contexts where VPW uses the term “the Bible” in the usual way, as I described above. But as PFAL progresses in understanding, what I see are contexts where VPW uses the term “the Bible” to mean the written Word of God. As PFAL’s publishing progressed in time, VPW’s use of “the Bible” refers to the collaterals.

The greatest secret in the world today is that “the Bible” (the finished PFAL writings)  is the revealed (written) Word of God. 

Many people believe that “the Bible” (in the usual sense) is the Word of God, but that belief is not in an actual text, not in a written text, but in an abstract goal of reconstructing scholars. THAT’s not the greatest secret in the world. The big secret is that the Author has actually given us another text, this time in English.

The official motto of the Way Corps was “It is written.”

I ask WHERE is it written, and in what language?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Mike I really appreciate your responses to our questions; I’m kinda getting an idea of your rule for faith and practice.

Thank you much, as well. 

I know what I am talking is SO far from the norm that it's not easy to take in, especially with details.

It is very difficult for me to get across a detailed understand of what my position is.  I constantly see people arguing with positions I do not support. Some of this difficulty is because I have no template to fall back on. I'm blazing my own trail, in some ways. But I also kn ow it's hard for people to take it in accurately, because it is SO far from the norm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

The greatest secret in the world today is that “the Bible” (the finished PFAL writings)  is the revealed (written) Word of God. 

 

Another way to state this would be "The greatest secret in the world today is that the finished PFAL writings are the revealed, written Word of God.".

 

So, then, by your own admission, you actually DO believe the written PFAL materials are the Word of God.

Interesting. On what evidence do you base this opinion?

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, anyone who comfortably crosses out a word in their KJV and puts the correction in the margin KNOWS that the KJV is devoid of authority. A good starting suggestion, sure, but not the last word. The same can be said of all other existing manuscripts.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mike said:

BTW, anyone who comfortably crosses out a word in their KJV and puts the correction in the margin KNOWS that the KJV is devoid of authority. A good starting suggestion, sure, but not the last word. The same can be said of all other existing manuscripts.

 

 

Does PFAL qualify as an "existing manuscript"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

snip ...

The greatest secret in the world today is that “the Bible” (the finished PFAL writings)  is the revealed (written) Word of God. 

Many people believe that “the Bible” (in the usual sense) is the Word of God, but that belief is not in an actual text, not in a written text, but in an abstract goal of reconstructing scholars. THAT’s not the greatest secret in the world. The big secret is that the Author has actually given us another text, this time in English.

The official motto of the Way Corps was “It is written.”

I ask WHERE is it written, and in what language?

 

 

I understand what you’re saying - but I don’t think that (“the greatest secret ...finished PFAL”) can be a legitimate inference from the way it’s stated in the PFAL book...

and to answer your question concerning the basis for the way corps motto - all “retemories” for the way corps principles as well as any teachings to the corps used the KJV in English.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, waysider said:

So, then, by your own admission, you actually DO believe the written PFAL materials are the Word of God.

Interesting. On what evidence do you base this opinion?

I've "admitted" this about a thousand times, at least a hundred in the past two months.  I've said it from every conceivable angle. If this is new to you, then PLEASE start all over with reading my posts, now that you understand my MAIN position.

People are so tense or uptight about me they can't read what I write very well. I'm waiting for calm.

***

You wrote: "On what evidence do you base this opinion?"

Is this a joke? It's a coming full circle back to the original topic of this thread.

I promised Rocky that I'd back off in answering this question so I can  write my manifesto, or a precursor to it, off line. I'll NEVER get off line this way. You'll have to wait for this, or go back and re-read my posts. I think you'll find my answer there several times over.

Edited by Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yikes! I thought everyone would be out playing right now at the beach or in the snow. I thought I could wrap up a few unanswered posts (tangents again, Rocky) and go off line to search out my earlier manifesto attempts.

But instead, there's a constant flurry of posts right now keeping me chained to my urge to respond. I may just have to hit "off" switch and run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

Does PFAL qualify as an "existing manuscript"?

That's getting a little complicated.  I am wondering how many levels there were in pre-publication. It looks to me that the printed books that were shipped are NOT the originals, but very close.

In the class we were taught how to ATTEMPT to work back to the originals where the existing texts were EXTREMELY corrupted over many centuries.

Using those exact same techniques, a document like a printed PFAL book is VERY close to the original, and not many years separate. One of the editors is still alive today. The flaws are trivial and are not attitude based like the in the ancient scriptures. had

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike and VPW were/are wrong. The Greatest secret in the world today is what is inside a woman's pocketbook/purse. You would be surprised, lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I understand what you’re saying - but I don’t think that (“the greatest secret ...finished PFAL”) can be a legitimate inference from the way it’s stated in the PFAL book...

To be debated at a later date?

and to answer your question concerning the basis for the way corps motto - all “retemories” for the way corps principles as well as any teachings to the corps used the KJV in English.

 But wouldn't that be a different "it" that you just brought up?

For "It is written" to refer to the KJV would mean, "It is written with flaws" ?

But the motto surely does not mean that. It means that "SOMETHING that was settled is the last word... the buck stops HERE, at something substantial and is written."  The "it" in the motto refers to God's Word, not to scholarly reconstructions that include errors.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • modcat5 changed the title to Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed?

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...