Wierwille took personal responsibility for everything in books that had his name as the author.
To act as though errors in those books get a mulligan because they were collaborative efforts is fundamentally dishonest and at odds with Wierwille's own written testimony about the content of those books. They are his words. They are not "proofreaders oversights. They are actual errors.
Your dishonesty would be shameful coming from a thinking person.
The week end is here and the life I already have beckons. I will read these when possible.
I have a quick question. Did anyone here attend PFAL '77 ?
So your going to skip right over your claims God
lied
was deceptive
used trickery
doesn't trust us
As none of these are attributed to God, that alone invalidates your claim PLAF is God-breathe
15 minutes ago, Mike said:
IF so, do you remember much about how VPW handled "all without distinction" ?
I was there, and I remember very deliberately looking at his face for that segment and not my KJV. I remember VERY well what and how he said it, because I had spent 5 years wondering (like others did then) if that was a mistake in the class and book.
SPOILER ALERT! He changed it to "all with distinction." Mistake? That depends on how you look at it and what surrounding evidence may eventually roll in. If you want to think the film and book are a mistake and PFAL'77 is correct, I could care less.
That's okay, we couldn't care less what you have to say about "all with distinction."
15 minutes ago, Mike said:
I am looking in a surprisingly different direction, so it shouldn't be surprising that I find things surprising things.
Let me guess: more evasion, more circular logic, more promising something that really adds up to a big nothing. That's no surprise.
Wierwille took personal responsibility for everything in books that had his name as the author.
To act as though errors in those books get a mulligan because they were collaborative efforts is fundamentally dishonest and at odds with Wierwille's own written testimony about the content of those books. They are his words. They are not "proofreaders oversights. They are actual errors.
Your dishonesty would be shameful coming from a thinking person.
You assume dishonesty when you merely don't understand.
Twice lately (and twice 10 years ago) I posted that the standard I observed at staff meetings for the level of perfection VPW chose for shipping finished product out of TWI.
He was angry at minute errors, but acknowledged the practicality of 100% free of minute errors probably would never happen.
I’ve posted this 4 times before, but in all your huffing and puffing you missed it.
I’ve also posted what I honestly do NOT know (yet), like the status the last chapter of JCNG, and the Preface of ADAN. There’s also two way mag articles that are being looked into.
You assume dishonesty when you merely don't understand.
Twice lately (and twice 10 years ago) I posted that the standard I observed at staff meetings for the level of perfection VPW chose for shipping finished product out of TWI.
He was angry at minute errors, but acknowledged the practicality of 100% free of minute errors probably would never happen.
I’ve posted this 4 times before, but in all your huffing and puffing you missed it.
I’ve also posted what I honestly do NOT know (yet), like the status the last chapter of JCNG, and the Preface of ADAN. There’s also two way mag articles that are being looked into.
No, I think your the one failing to understand.
Proofreaders check spelling and grammar, they don't touch content.
So, the content errors in PLAF have nothing to do with the proofreaders, yet your insisting they're proofreader errors.
It's unfortunate you don't want to expend as much energy to understand as you expect us to.
Wierwille took responsibility for what was written under his name. You are dishonestly absolving him of that responsibility in an effort to dishonestly dodge, distract, challenge right back but never admit an error is an error. That is lying. You are not engaging in an honest dialogue.
I am not assuming dishonesty. I am observing, noting and documenting dishonesty.
No. In my case it just means I'm plodding along consistently
in a direction that is breathtakingly baffling to you and others.
That's an admission that you are satisfied with your failure to communicate. Failing to communicate is, by definition, not getting the intended listener/reader to understand the message you said/wrote as you meant it.
The week end is here and the life I already have beckons. I will read these when possible.
I have a quick question. Did anyone here attend PFAL '77 ?
IF so, do you remember much about how VPW handled "all without distinction" ?
I was there, and I remember very deliberately looking at his face for that segment and not my KJV. I remember VERY well what and how he said it, because I had spent 5 years wondering (like others did then) if that was a mistake in the class and book.
SPOILER ALERT! He changed it to "all with distinction." Mistake? That depends on how you look at it and what surrounding evidence may eventually roll in. If you want to think the film and book are a mistake and PFAL'77 is correct, I could care less.
I am looking in a surprisingly different direction, so it shouldn't be surprising that I find things surprising things.
...to be continued. I'll show you why it is not a mistake.
No, you won't. Not only is your admission (that you have failed to communicate anything here) significant, but it also strongly suggests you knowingly troll here.
Two major claims have been brought forth on this thread.
1.) PFAL is God Breathed.
2.) Wierwille, himself, declared it to be God Breathed.
Neither claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction.
I'm not trying to prove #1, not just now anyway.
I’m not finished proving #2 yet.
It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention.
I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1. Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension. Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this. When can you actually look at what you are criticizing?Not yet, I see.
As for item #1, I am trying to get a feel for what kinds of proofs you folks have to support your belief systems, ESPECIALLY if it involves the Bible.I’d like to try sculpting my proof in the image of yours, but I need to know your proof to do that.
So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ?
I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.
It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention.
I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1.
This is not our inability to understand, this is YOUR failure to communicate.
From PLAF: "If you have five verses saying one thing and one verse saying another, you don't throw out the five in favor of the one. You see what's wrong with the one."
Quote
Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension.
Once again, responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. If five people aren't getting it, that's YOUR fault, not theirs.
Quote
Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this.
All I see is 1000-word essays that could be much shorter. I usually wind up skimming.
As I told you before, my experience tells me the wordier someone is, the more likely someone is trying to con me.
Why do you think PLAF was 33 hours long?
Mike said:
When can you actually look at what you are criticizing?Not yet, I see.
So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ?
I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.
Whether you realize it or not, this is a veiled personal attack.
I couldn't really care less about what you "want to see explicitly" regarding my personal faith life, nor am I interested in your personal faith life. The focus of this thread is about a concept...whether or not PFAL is God Breathed.
Please allow me to apologize to you for the way I have been here.After a week of soul searching I have come to realize that the main reason I returned to post here was NOSTALGIA.I just miss grads and grad talk.
Part of that nostalgia kick has been reading up on posters stories and other threads by the current frequent posters. In doing so I’ve come across lots of emotional reminders of the problems that happened at TWI. Most of those problems hit me much lighter than the others whose stories I was reading.
In general, I’ve come to realize that my nostalgia thrills are not worth it, seeing the commotion and stir that my posting has been. I really thought that after a10 or 12 year hiatus, things may have calmed down. They did not;some ways they are worse.
Some of the problems posters recounted hit me hardest were in how families were disrupted. It reminded me of hurt grads, close friends of mine, of long ago who got ground up in the ministry machinery. I had forgotten their pain.
***
I think I was wrong in posting, seeing my topic causes grief. Grief causing was not my intention. I now feel it’s my moral duty to stop posting my message.I honestly thought the hostilities would calm down after a month of my recent posting. I was wrong. I honestly thought the hostilities would be GONE after my being gone for 10 years. I was wrong.
***
And to you, So_crates, I want to tell you I am so sorry for any grief I gave you. I was unaware of your medical situation. I think you mentioned it in passing once, and I was not sharp enough to register it. I recently saw some extensive posting you did on it, and it was obvious to me I had do some re-thinking.But even if you had no medical situation I still feel I was wrong in the way I interacted with you. I see better now the lingering hurt of TWI that still bothers MOST people here. I should have seen how what I consider good news is not so good an association for me to bring up over and over here. I owe apologies to you, as well as all the others here, and I have sorrow for what I’ve done. This has been going on and off in my head for a week now, and it’s not letting up but getting worse.
I want to learn from this. I will stick around for a little (like a few days), hoping for a means to make some kind of token amends. Possibly, if I offer to answer questions (best of my ability) that may help, but I also can’t see anyone losing any sleep if I just split immediately.
I will stick around long enough to try and clean up any issues, if possible. My usual style and agenda for using questions as mechanisms for getting my message out is in the trash can. Instead of dodging questions that may interrupt my message flow and/or be useful later, I’ll just try my best to answer them.I have no plan, but to stop posting my message.
So_crates, I didn’t get to read your post yet, but I will, and I will refrain from responding in my usual way. If there is any item in it that you want to see a response (in the new style) then please let me know.
Maybe if I stick around a tiny bit people can get some closure on this episode.
I’m sorry I didn’t read all those personal stories first, before I started posting.
Whether you realize it or not, this is a veiled personal attack.
waysider,
I apologize for the personal attack.
Actually I was being rough in the first half of my post, and the second part that you quoted was actually not an attack.
I am genuinely interested in how other people get the proofs they need to move on with God. I was sincere in those later questions to you, but the rough language that preceded it probably camouflaged my intentions. This was my fault not yours, as Rocky (I think) pointed out something similar a day ago.
My interest in proofs is genuine. I will not press you for an answer.
On 1/25/2018 at 8:51 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
Mike, could we have that in writing?!
Yes, grace. But I was not as serious and detailed when I wrote what you quoted as I am now.
I am stopping the posting of my message, because I am coming to a deeper awareness of how many here were hurt by TWI and that my message brings that hurt to mind afresh.
Please accept my apology for allowing the implication in my post that your education was lacking. You probably have a much stronger education than I have.
Rocky, I'm sorry I bothered you. You didn't do anything to me to deserve the way I came on in posting. I'm running out of words for apologizing, so I need a rest. I just wanted to apologize right now for wasting your time. I did not sleep well for this. I wish you well.
Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for letting others know I'm not dangerous in any way.
I have apologized to many already, but I think you and I never got into any fistfights here. I know, however, that a lot of people look up to you and gain much support from you. I want to apologize to them and you for wasting your time.
Thank you for the few sentences where you acknowledged the hot years on Long Island. That small passage of yours was one of the big nostalgia hits of the month for me. Unfortunately, my Way grad nostalgia affinity had me stepping on too many toes here. It was inconsiderate of me to have not thought that through better. Nostalgia is not a good reason to make others feel uncomfortable, and that's what I have done.
It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention.
I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1. Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension. Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this. When can you actually look at what you are criticizing?Not yet, I see.
As for item #1, I am trying to get a feel for what kinds of proofs you folks have to support your belief systems, ESPECIALLY if it involves the Bible.I’d like to try sculpting my proof in the image of yours, but I need to know your proof to do that.
So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ?
I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.
You are such a troll. Just yesterday you claimed to recognize the need to get a life.
The highlighted sentence in the quote above further underscores your acknowledged inability to communicate.
Unless you can motivate people to be interested in your words, you are nothing but a troll.
It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention.
I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1. Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension. Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this. When can you actually look at what you are criticizing?Not yet, I see.
As for item #1, I am trying to get a feel for what kinds of proofs you folks have to support your belief systems, ESPECIALLY if it involves the Bible.I’d like to try sculpting my proof in the image of yours, but I need to know your proof to do that.
So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ?
I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.
You are such a troll. Just yesterday you claimed to recognize the need to get a life.
The highlighted sentence in the quote above further underscores your acknowledged inability to communicate.
Unless you can motivate people to be interested in your words, you are nothing but a troll.
Yes, grace. But I was not as serious and detailed when I wrote what you quoted as I am now.
I am stopping the posting of my message, because I am coming to a deeper awareness of how many here were hurt by TWI and that my message brings that hurt to mind afresh.
Please accept my apology for allowing the implication in my post that your education was lacking. You probably have a much stronger education than I have.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."........Thomas Paine.
penworks
Here's an idea: we each drop out of this topic and go read a book.
DontWorryBeHappy
Can anyone tell me dictor paul's scriptural position on the word "Covfefe"? What is the true meaning of that word?? Mike's textual criticism, and use of the basic dictor "keys to research", is as made
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Raf
Wierwille took personal responsibility for everything in books that had his name as the author.
To act as though errors in those books get a mulligan because they were collaborative efforts is fundamentally dishonest and at odds with Wierwille's own written testimony about the content of those books. They are his words. They are not "proofreaders oversights. They are actual errors.
Your dishonesty would be shameful coming from a thinking person.
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So_crates
So your going to skip right over your claims God
As none of these are attributed to God, that alone invalidates your claim PLAF is God-breathe
That's okay, we couldn't care less what you have to say about "all with distinction."
Let me guess: more evasion, more circular logic, more promising something that really adds up to a big nothing. That's no surprise.
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Mike
You assume dishonesty when you merely don't understand.
Twice lately (and twice 10 years ago) I posted that the standard I observed at staff meetings for the level of perfection VPW chose for shipping finished product out of TWI.
He was angry at minute errors, but acknowledged the practicality of 100% free of minute errors probably would never happen.
I’ve posted this 4 times before, but in all your huffing and puffing you missed it.
I’ve also posted what I honestly do NOT know (yet), like the status the last chapter of JCNG, and the Preface of ADAN. There’s also two way mag articles that are being looked into.
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So_crates
No, I think your the one failing to understand.
Proofreaders check spelling and grammar, they don't touch content.
So, the content errors in PLAF have nothing to do with the proofreaders, yet your insisting they're proofreader errors.
It's unfortunate you don't want to expend as much energy to understand as you expect us to.
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Raf
Wierwille took responsibility for what was written under his name. You are dishonestly absolving him of that responsibility in an effort to dishonestly dodge, distract, challenge right back but never admit an error is an error. That is lying. You are not engaging in an honest dialogue.
I am not assuming dishonesty. I am observing, noting and documenting dishonesty.
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Twinky
In all your huffing and puffing, Mike, you've missed everything that is good about any Bible version.
You assume dishonesty, attack and much negativity, when people here point out what you don't understand. Wantonly do not understand.
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waysider
Two major claims have been brought forth on this thread.
1.) PFAL is God Breathed.
2.) Wierwille, himself, declared it to be God Breathed.
Neither claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction.
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Rocky
That's an admission that you are satisfied with your failure to communicate. Failing to communicate is, by definition, not getting the intended listener/reader to understand the message you said/wrote as you meant it.
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Rocky
No, you won't. Not only is your admission (that you have failed to communicate anything here) significant, but it also strongly suggests you knowingly troll here.
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Rocky
THIS statement reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of the process of communication.
Edited by RockyFor you to acknowledge failing to communicate (i.e. "... you merely don't understand"), and blame it on ANYONE other than yourself, is reprehensible.
You are not a worthy opponent in this debate. And that's a fair inference based directly on your own words.
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Mike
I'm not trying to prove #1, not just now anyway.
I’m not finished proving #2 yet.
It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention.
I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1. Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension. Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this. When can you actually look at what you are criticizing? Not yet, I see.
As for item #1, I am trying to get a feel for what kinds of proofs you folks have to support your belief systems, ESPECIALLY if it involves the Bible. I’d like to try sculpting my proof in the image of yours, but I need to know your proof to do that.
So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ?
I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.
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So_crates
This is not our inability to understand, this is YOUR failure to communicate.
From PLAF: "If you have five verses saying one thing and one verse saying another, you don't throw out the five in favor of the one. You see what's wrong with the one."
Once again, responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. If five people aren't getting it, that's YOUR fault, not theirs.
All I see is 1000-word essays that could be much shorter. I usually wind up skimming.
As I told you before, my experience tells me the wordier someone is, the more likely someone is trying to con me.
Why do you think PLAF was 33 hours long?
Mike said:
When can you actually look at what you are criticizing? Not yet, I see.
Me:
Are you saying truth can't survive criticism?
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waysider
Whether you realize it or not, this is a veiled personal attack.
I couldn't really care less about what you "want to see explicitly" regarding my personal faith life, nor am I interested in your personal faith life. The focus of this thread is about a concept...whether or not PFAL is God Breathed.
With that in mind... in your opinion:
Is PFAL God Breathed?
__Yes
__No
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Mike
So_crates,
Please allow me to apologize to you for the way I have been here.After a week of soul searching I have come to realize that the main reason I returned to post here was NOSTALGIA. I just miss grads and grad talk.
Part of that nostalgia kick has been reading up on posters stories and other threads by the current frequent posters. In doing so I’ve come across lots of emotional reminders of the problems that happened at TWI. Most of those problems hit me much lighter than the others whose stories I was reading.
In general, I’ve come to realize that my nostalgia thrills are not worth it, seeing the commotion and stir that my posting has been. I really thought that after a 10 or 12 year hiatus, things may have calmed down. They did not; some ways they are worse.
Some of the problems posters recounted hit me hardest were in how families were disrupted. It reminded me of hurt grads, close friends of mine, of long ago who got ground up in the ministry machinery. I had forgotten their pain.
***
I think I was wrong in posting, seeing my topic causes grief. Grief causing was not my intention. I now feel it’s my moral duty to stop posting my message. I honestly thought the hostilities would calm down after a month of my recent posting. I was wrong. I honestly thought the hostilities would be GONE after my being gone for 10 years. I was wrong.
***
And to you, So_crates, I want to tell you I am so sorry for any grief I gave you. I was unaware of your medical situation. I think you mentioned it in passing once, and I was not sharp enough to register it. I recently saw some extensive posting you did on it, and it was obvious to me I had do some re-thinking. But even if you had no medical situation I still feel I was wrong in the way I interacted with you. I see better now the lingering hurt of TWI that still bothers MOST people here. I should have seen how what I consider good news is not so good an association for me to bring up over and over here. I owe apologies to you, as well as all the others here, and I have sorrow for what I’ve done. This has been going on and off in my head for a week now, and it’s not letting up but getting worse.I want to learn from this. I will stick around for a little (like a few days), hoping for a means to make some kind of token amends. Possibly, if I offer to answer questions (best of my ability) that may help, but I also can’t see anyone losing any sleep if I just split immediately.
I will stick around long enough to try and clean up any issues, if possible. My usual style and agenda for using questions as mechanisms for getting my message out is in the trash can. Instead of dodging questions that may interrupt my message flow and/or be useful later, I’ll just try my best to answer them. I have no plan, but to stop posting my message.
So_crates, I didn’t get to read your post yet, but I will, and I will refrain from responding in my usual way. If there is any item in it that you want to see a response (in the new style) then please let me know.
Maybe if I stick around a tiny bit people can get some closure on this episode.
I’m sorry I didn’t read all those personal stories first, before I started posting.
Peace.
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Mike
waysider,
I apologize for the personal attack.
Actually I was being rough in the first half of my post, and the second part that you quoted was actually not an attack.
I am genuinely interested in how other people get the proofs they need to move on with God. I was sincere in those later questions to you, but the rough language that preceded it probably camouflaged my intentions. This was my fault not yours, as Rocky (I think) pointed out something similar a day ago.
My interest in proofs is genuine. I will not press you for an answer.
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Mike
Yes, grace. But I was not as serious and detailed when I wrote what you quoted as I am now.
I am stopping the posting of my message, because I am coming to a deeper awareness of how many here were hurt by TWI and that my message brings that hurt to mind afresh.
Please accept my apology for allowing the implication in my post that your education was lacking. You probably have a much stronger education than I have.
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Mike
Rocky, I'm sorry I bothered you. You didn't do anything to me to deserve the way I came on in posting. I'm running out of words for apologizing, so I need a rest. I just wanted to apologize right now for wasting your time. I did not sleep well for this. I wish you well.
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Mike
Thanks for the offer, but I am realizing my effect on others better than I did before. I apologize.
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Mike
Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for letting others know I'm not dangerous in any way.
I have apologized to many already, but I think you and I never got into any fistfights here. I know, however, that a lot of people look up to you and gain much support from you. I want to apologize to them and you for wasting your time.
Thank you for the few sentences where you acknowledged the hot years on Long Island. That small passage of yours was one of the big nostalgia hits of the month for me. Unfortunately, my Way grad nostalgia affinity had me stepping on too many toes here. It was inconsiderate of me to have not thought that through better. Nostalgia is not a good reason to make others feel uncomfortable, and that's what I have done.
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Mike
Please accept my apology for being a pain in the a$$.
I will stop.
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Rocky
You are such a troll. Just yesterday you claimed to recognize the need to get a life.
The highlighted sentence in the quote above further underscores your acknowledged inability to communicate.
Unless you can motivate people to be interested in your words, you are nothing but a troll.
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Rocky
You are such a troll. Just yesterday you claimed to recognize the need to get a life.
The highlighted sentence in the quote above further underscores your acknowledged inability to communicate.
Unless you can motivate people to be interested in your words, you are nothing but a troll.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, yes I do. Thank you.
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Mike
Yes, I was going back and forth on it. It was an emotional roller coaster for me. It's over.
I prayed a lot and came to the conclusion that many of your criticisms are valid.
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